Author Topic: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea  (Read 1205 times)

Primus203

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Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« on: 08 March 2024, 23:37:37 »
Exactly what it says on the tin my current warship design doctrine is most of the capital weapons mounted on the nose of the ship with a naval laser 55 or two on every other facing and then anti fighter slash pd on every aspect. Example to follow.

Ballista Battlecruiser Warship
Mass: 1,200,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Introduced: 3065
Mass: 1,200,000
Battle Value: 217,009
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-X
Cost: 73,147,832,800 C-bills

Fuel: 1,600 tons (4,000)
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Sail Integrity: 6
KF Drive Integrity: 24
Heat Sinks: 7000 (14000)
Structural Integrity: 140

Armor
    Nose: 310
    Fore Sides: 256/256
    Aft Sides: 229/229
    Aft: 148

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Fighter (100)           18 Doors 
    Bay 2:  Cargo (5896.0 tons)     2 Doors   

Ammunition:
    13,000 rounds of LB 10-X Cluster ammunition (1,300 tons),
    800 rounds of Heavy N-Gauss ammunition (400 tons),
    250 rounds of White Shark ammunition (10,000 tons)

Dropship Capacity: 24
Grav Decks: 2 (250 m, 250 m)
Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 60
Crew:  60 officers, 225 enlisted/non-rated, 75 gunners, 200 bay personnel, 100 marines      

Notes: Equipped with
    lithium-fusion battery system
    1 Naval C3
   3,360 tons of standard aerospace armor.

Weapons:                                      Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                                Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (3,901 Heat)
10 Laser AMS                              70   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Naval Gauss (Heavy)                     36   60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital Gauss
    Heavy N-Gauss Ammo (200 shots)
2 Naval Gauss (Heavy)                     36   60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital Gauss
    Heavy N-Gauss Ammo (200 shots)
2 Naval Gauss (Heavy)                     36   60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital Gauss
    Heavy N-Gauss Ammo (200 shots)
2 Naval Gauss (Heavy)                     36   60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital Gauss
    Heavy N-Gauss Ammo (200 shots)
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)                       900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)                       900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)                       900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)                       900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
6 LB 10-X AC                              12   6(60)   6(60)    0(0)     0(0)   LBX AC     
    LB 10-X Cluster Ammo (6000 shots)
5 Capital Missile Launcher (White Shark)  75   15(150) 15(150) 15(150) 15(150)  Capital Missile
    White Shark Ammo (250 shots)
FRS/FLS (260 Heat)
2 Naval Laser 55                          170  11(110) 11(110) 11(110) 11(110)  Capital Laser
10 Laser AMS                              70   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
10 LB 10-X AC                             20   10(100) 10(100)  0(0)     0(0)   LBX AC     
    LB 10-X Cluster Ammo (1000 shots)
RBS/LBS (430 Heat)
10 Laser AMS                              70   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
10 LB 10-X AC                             20   10(100) 10(100)  0(0)     0(0)   LBX AC     
    LB 10-X Cluster Ammo (1000 shots)
4 Naval Laser 55                          340  22(220) 22(220) 22(220) 22(220)  Capital Laser
ARS/ALS (260 Heat)
10 Laser AMS                              70   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
10 LB 10-X AC                             20   10(100) 10(100)  0(0)     0(0)   LBX AC     
    LB 10-X Cluster Ammo (1000 shots)
2 Naval Laser 55                          170  11(110) 11(110) 11(110) 11(110)  Capital Laser
Aft (430 Heat)
10 Laser AMS                              70   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
10 LB 10-X AC                             20   10(100) 10(100)  0(0)     0(0)   LBX AC     
    LB 10-X Cluster Ammo (1000 shots)
4 Naval Laser 55                          340  22(220) 22(220) 22(220) 22(220)  Capital Laser
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When compared to a star league McKenna to be shown below the Ballista has comparable firepower to the McKenna's broadside while only being sixty percent of the mass. The Ballista also has better all around armor as well as a nose armed design means pointing heaviest armor at target.

Also before you ask the gross majority of the ballistas greater cost is due to having more drop collars than the McKenna as the group I'm making can far more easily replace armed dropships than warships or jumpships. McKenna below for comparison.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
McKenna Battleship (2652)
Mass: 1,930,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Advanced)
Introduced: 3200
Mass: 1,930,000
Battle Value: 194,031
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-X-F
Cost: 30,974,056,800 C-bills

Fuel: 1,600 tons (4,000)
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Sail Integrity: 8
KF Drive Integrity: 37
Heat Sinks: 6325 (12650)
Structural Integrity: 95

Armor
    Nose: 200
    Fore Sides: 250/250
    Aft Sides: 250/250
    Aft: 143

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Small Craft (16)        2 Doors   
    Bay 2:  Fighter (25)            4 Doors   
    Bay 3:  Fighter (25)            4 Doors   
    Bay 4:  Cargo (255400.0 tons)   0 Doors   

Ammunition:
    20 rounds of AR10 Killer Whale ammunition (1,000 tons),
    480 rounds of NAC/40 ammunition (576 tons),
    30 rounds of AR10 Barracuda ammunition (900 tons),
    20 rounds of AR10 White Shark ammunition (800 tons)

Dropship Capacity: 6
Grav Decks: 3 (45 m, 45 m, 75 m)
Escape Pods: 30
Life Boats: 30
Crew:  97 officers, 404 enlisted/non-rated, 78 gunners, 180 bay personnel      

Notes: Equipped with
    lithium-fusion battery system
   1,604 tons of ferro-carbide armor.

Weapons:                                        Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                                  Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (440 Heat)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)                 135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (40 shots)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)                 135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (40 shots)
2 Naval Laser 55                            170  11(110) 11(110) 11(110) 11(110)  Capital Laser
FRS/FLS (700 Heat)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)                 135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (40 shots)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)                 135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (40 shots)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)                 135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (40 shots)
3 Naval Laser 55                            255  17(165) 17(165) 17(165) 17(165)  Capital Laser
2 Capital Missile Launcher (AR10 Launcher)  40   4(40)   4(40)   4(40)    4(40)   AR10       
    AR10 Barracuda Ammo (10 shots)
    AR10 Killer Whale Ammo (7 shots)
    AR10 White Shark Ammo (7 shots)
RBS/LBS (2,700 Heat)
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)                         900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)                         900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)                         900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
ARS/ALS (2,700 Heat)
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)                         900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)                         900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)                         900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
Aft (920 Heat)
4 Naval Laser 55                            340  22(220) 22(220) 22(220) 22(220)  Capital Laser
2 Capital Missile Launcher (AR10 Launcher)  40   4(40)   4(40)   4(40)    4(40)   AR10       
    AR10 Barracuda Ammo (10 shots)
    AR10 Killer Whale Ammo (6 shots)
    AR10 White Shark Ammo (6 shots)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)                 135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (40 shots)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)                 135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (40 shots)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)                 135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (40 shots)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)                 135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (40 shots)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The only way I see the Mckenna taking this is by fighting till one sides wrecked than rolling am I wrong on this? Also I'm doing this as a direct comparison. This is not counting the combat dropships as well as the combined fighter complement of three hundred forty between the Ballista and Dropships in a fifty fifty mix air superiority and strike fighter bomber.

Mechanis

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #1 on: 09 March 2024, 02:00:17 »
So the big thing here is that this kind of design tends to not perform well, because the space rules favor broadside fighters, but a heavy fore armament can work.
As a general rule, though, you should  not use the canon designs as published as measuring sticks; out of universe most were designed before the rules for actually using them were written and thus tend to be pretty bad at it, in universe I just assume that the Star League had the Galactic Empire Syndrome and was building Mobile Oppression Palaces rather than maximally effective warships for basically the same reasons.
This being said, we can still analyze the loadout here in a vacuum, on basic choices.

First off, there's the fighter complement. Entirely leaving aside the fact that 100 ASF would represent a substantial portion of an entire nation's ASF, with only 18 doors you aren't going to be able to deploy them in any reasonable amount of time.
Your cargo bay also seems to have the opposite problem of canon designs, and not be *big enough*. Remember that you need 1% of the ship's mass in spares and probably something like four or five thousand tons of crew supplies, plus extra ammunition, armor, spare equipment, and other assorted supplies - I generally recommend allocating crew supplies and spares separately, then having 5-10% of the ship mass as cargo for all that sort of thing.
Similarly, you have nowhere near enough fuel; a ship that size needs tens of thousands of tons with how fast they burn it in combat.
You also seem to have a lot of SI, but not even close to max armor for said SI? Which yeah ah
don't do that
Generally, if a WarShip starts taking SI damage it's either dead outright or running like hell; and armor thresholds further encourage you to pile on as much armor as is allowed. As it is, this design has the same problem as the "tough" McKenna: all but the lightest weapon bays can threshold it, and the average one can chew through any location in only three or four rounds at most. Not very many 60s in 200, for example, and 60 is pretty common as the damage value of a heavy bay.

For actual weapons...
Okay, first off: it's good that you remember that CIWS/PD mounts are things that exist and should be mounted to a WarShip! Most of the canon designs do not, and this is the subject of endless frustration on my part.
Your choices here are... Questionable, though.
First off, the LB 10. Leaving my usual rant about Autocannons aside for the moment, the big thing here is that LBs get zero lube in the Aero rules, being restricted solely to cluster ammo and an assumed roll of 7, which means those AC 10s are doing all of 6 damage each- and they don't even go up a range bracket like the 2 and 20 do for their trouble. The fact you've got them in hex turrets is also problematic- each bay can only target a single fighter each turn, so you generally want several so you can split or concentrate fire as needed... And so that you can still fire them even riding the ragged edge of your heat capacity. Similarly, you should split those AMS mounts into pairs, because Space AMS is restricted to one engagement per missile attack per bay, so you want many, many bays; this is also more efficient against capital missiles- your present configuration can output 3 capital damage, but 5 pairs outputs 5 damage, because of damage rounding.also, again, heat efficiency and avoiding overkill.

As for Capital Weapons... Okay, so a few capital missiles aren't completely a bad idea- they're excellent flyswatters and having the literally nuclear option is a useful capability-but ten is... Either excessive, or not enough. if you're not going to go full Macross Missile Massacre with the 80+ launchers needed to actually saturate something that has decent AMS, there's really no point in mounting more than 2-4 tubes, in an AMS environment.
The HNPPCs are fine of course- quad HNPPCs are basically the best big capital bay the system allows-but those laser pairs really should be quads (or better) if you want to use them on other WarShips, or singletons if you're expecting to mostly use them in AA mode.

Naval Gauss, on the other hand, is the worst weapon in the entire system, even NACs are better. The simple fact is that Ngauss is heavy as hell as Extreme Range tax but ironically does too much damage per gun, making it impossible to put enough in one bay for effective bracketing---the only real way to actually hit things with any kind of regularity at Capital Extreme range.

Compare the following revision:
Code: [Select]
Type/Model: Ballista Revision   
Tech: Inner Sphere
Vessel type: WarShip
Mass: 1200000 tons
Engine: Fusion, 10000 DHS
Safe Thrust: 3 (3)
Maximum Thrust: 5 (5)
Jump Drive: Compact w/ Lithium Fusion Battery
Armor Type: 3096.0t Lamellor Ferro-Carbide (704/501/501/501) [129 SI]
Armament:
  3 AR-10 Launcher (3 bays of 1, 2 KW|4 WS|6 BC/bay, 1 bay L/RB, Aft)
  8 Screen Launcher (4 bays of 1, 20 rounds/bay, 2 bays FL/R, AL/R)
 42 ER Large Laser (21 bays of 2, 3 bays FL/R, L/RB, AL/R, Aft)
 42 Laser AMS (21 bays of 2, 3 bays FL/R, L/RB, AL/R, Aft)
 24 SCL/1 (4 bays of 6, 2 bays L/RB)
  9 NL45 (9 bays of 1, 2 bays FL/R AL/R, 1 bay Aft)
  6 NL55 (1 bay Aft)
  8 Medium NPPC (2 bays of 4, 1 bay AL/R)
 28 Heavy NPPC (7 bays of 4, 5 bays Nose, 1 bay FL/R)
Other systems:
 Naval C³ System
 Large Naval Comms-Scanner
Cargo Bays:
  1 (10 doors):
    40 ASF
  2 (4 doors):
    36000t cargo
  Internal:
    40000t Hydrogen Fuel
    12000t Spare Parts
      510t Crew Supplies (200 days supply)
    477.5t Cargo
DropShip Collars: 24
Crew:
  65 Officers
  12 Specialists
  93 Gunners
  80 Bay Personnel (Crew Quarters)
  40 Battle Armor Marines
  220 Crew
Grav Decks: 3x 200m
Escape Pods: 85

Daryk

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #2 on: 09 March 2024, 02:51:43 »
Also don't forget Fire Control tonnage for any arc with more than 20 weapons.  The real power of WarShips is that they have two more arcs than smaller ships.  Fortunately, AMS don't count as weapons, so you can still slather those on generously.

Primus203

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #3 on: 09 March 2024, 03:01:59 »
I didnt know you could split the bays or how it affected things thanks for the knowledge I was already in the middle of a redesign removing the naval lasers for a larger number of sub cap laser threes below is revised design. Also according to my math i am mounting max armor im not sure if the difference in calcs is because its standard aerospace armor instead of fero.

Alright so I did a major redesign taking into account advice. Eight gauss replaced with eight heavy nppc. Ams split into two gun bays. autocanonns and naval lasers removed for a new mix. Two bays of four scl-3 per facing supplemented by six individual  bay scl-3 for dedicated aa. This is supplemented by five bays of double er med lasers. Missiles have been removed as combat dropships carried mount piranhas anyways. Cargo capacity is increased to 55k tons. More is considered unnecessary as the ballista is built as the bruiser of a fleet and is accompanied at a minimum by an oiler and replenishment vessel.

Ballista Battlecruiser Warship (Refined)
Mass: 1,200,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Introduced: 3065
Mass: 1,200,000
Battle Value: 198,179
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-F
Cost: 73,116,104,800 C-bills

Fuel: 1,600 tons (4,000)
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Sail Integrity: 6
KF Drive Integrity: 24
Heat Sinks: 7000 (14000)
Structural Integrity: 140

Armor
    Nose: 754
    Fore Sides: 619/619
    Aft Sides: 551/551
    Aft: 350

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Fighter (100)           18 Doors 
    Bay 2:  Cargo (55656.0 tons)    2 Doors   

Ammunition:
   None

Dropship Capacity: 24
Grav Decks: 2 (250 m, 250 m)
Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 60
Crew:  73 officers, 212 enlisted/non-rated, 149 gunners, 200 bay personnel, 100 marines      

Notes: Equipped with
    lithium-fusion battery system
    1 Naval C3
   3,360 tons of lamellor ferro-carbide armor.

Weapons:                    Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)              Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (6,006 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)     900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)     900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)     900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)     900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
4 Sub-Capital Laser /3  128  12(120) 12(120)  0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
4 Sub-Capital Laser /3  128  12(120) 12(120)  0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)     900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)     900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
FRS/FLS (638 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
4 Sub-Capital Laser /3  128  12(120) 12(120)  0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
4 Sub-Capital Laser /3  128  12(120) 12(120)  0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
RBS/LBS (638 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
4 Sub-Capital Laser /3  128  12(120) 12(120)  0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
4 Sub-Capital Laser /3  128  12(120) 12(120)  0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
ARS/ALS (638 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
4 Sub-Capital Laser /3  128  12(120) 12(120)  0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
4 Sub-Capital Laser /3  128  12(120) 12(120)  0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
Aft (638 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
4 Sub-Capital Laser /3  128  12(120) 12(120)  0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
4 Sub-Capital Laser /3  128  12(120) 12(120)  0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       

Daryk

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #4 on: 09 March 2024, 03:06:28 »
Does your design program automatically calculate the Fire Control?  I don't see it in the stats anywhere...

Primus203

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #5 on: 09 March 2024, 03:11:57 »
Yes its something around eight hundred tons per face other than nose which is somewhere in range of thirty k tons.

Daryk

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #6 on: 09 March 2024, 03:15:16 »
Rog, thanks!

Mechanis

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #7 on: 09 March 2024, 09:45:19 »
And just to give you an idea why you shouldn't use canon designs as published, this is what you can do with a McKenna chassis when you're not high on marker fumes:
Code: [Select]
Class: McKenna Unstupid Edition (Block 1)
Tech: Inner Sphere / Star League
Vessel type: WarShip
Mass: 1930000 tons
Engine: Fusion, 20878 DHS
Safe Thrust: 3 (1.5 Gs)
Maximum Thrust: 5 (2.5 Gs)
Armor Type: 3860.0t Ferro-Carbide (524/525/525/524) [100 SI]
Armament:
  2 NAC/30 (1 bay Nose, 30 rounds)
  6 AR-10 Launcher (6 bays of 1, 1 KW|4 WS|5 BC/bay, 1 bay FL/R, 2 bays Aft)
 16 NL55 (4 bays of 4, 1 bay Nose, FL/R, Aft)
 16 Medium NPPC (4 bays of 4, 2 bays FL/R)
 80 Heavy NPPC (20 bays of 4, 5 L/RB, AL/R)
 44 ER Large Laser (22 bays of 2, 4 bays Nose, Aft, 3 bays FL/R, 2 bays L/RB, AL/R)
 36 Anti-Missile System (16 bays of 2, 20t ammo/bay, 3 bays Nose,L/RB, AL/R, Aft)
DropShip Collars: 15
Cargo Bays:
  1 (10 doors):
   20 ASF
  2 (8 doors):
   70000t cargo
 Internal:
 50000t Hydrogen Fuel
 19300t Spare Parts
   672t Crew Supplies (200 days supply)
   158t Cargo
Crew:
  96 Officers
 128 Gunners
 404 Crew
  40 Bay Personnel (Crew Quarters)
   1 spare Officer cabin
   3 spare Crew cabins
Grav Decks: 2x 200m, 1x 250m
Escape Pods: 112
(Also I recommend putting TRO output into code tags- not only does it save page real estate, most programs have that output designed for monospace fonts, which code blocks use but standard posting does not.)
« Last Edit: 09 March 2024, 09:46:53 by Mechanis »

AlphaMirage

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #8 on: 09 March 2024, 10:08:30 »
Yeah or you can get two of these for a canon McKenna or six for your Ballista both of which can only be in one place at one time.

Nose fighter Warships IMO work good for lighter ships as they can put their limited mass to best effect from the nose. Its okay for Aerospace interdiction provided you have coverage elsewhere. That said spreading them out among the front 3 bays and putting missiles in the broadsides will reduce fire control tonnage while allowing you to fire at a wider range of angles.

I also think the Naval C3 is not worth it except on Destroyers working in packs or maybe Space Stations like the M-9 Pavise since they cannot maneuver on their own and need spotters. You have enough firepower and ok speed that anything in range is going to get hit for a high amount each turn.

I think you should mix both NLs and SCLs because you will only get one or two shots at fighters (presuming you are using velocity rules) with sub-caps and having an NL will add a third chance.

You still should have more fuel (like 10x), with 24 Dropships and a hundred fighters you will rapidly run out and you cannot assume that your enemy won't target any Aqueducts in your flotilla (because those are my prime targets for fighter and assault dropship sorties). Remember your Warship is not just a Warship, its everything to its attached armada of dropships, and is likely expected to provide continuing support for planetary invasions.

Mechanis

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #9 on: 09 March 2024, 10:18:29 »
Naval C3 is very worth it to things that want to be at Extreme Range as much as possible - a few spotters can take you from eating the bracketing fire reduction to consistently hitting with full damage standard attacks, which is a pretty big deal.

It's not as BS as ATAC of course, but then what is?

AlphaMirage

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #10 on: 09 March 2024, 10:40:26 »
The thing is that closing velocity don't care about your Extreme range, its a Battleship, it's designed close with the enemy and take hits. Its actually why IMO slow Broadsiders will get mauled by fighters and assault dropships because they are easy to catch. That's why I think Naval C3 was fine on Space Stations since they cannot do that, they need maximum accuracy against approaching targets.

Your enemy should be closing to Long or less already if it can take you and unless you are faster than them they will reach it or evade you. Extreme range is there for closing shots.

Naval C3 has a max range of 60 so if there was one in play I'd just shoot the dropship spotters (which are much closer to me) from outside your Battleship's weapons range or Naval C3 net, eliminating them before they can even be useful. You cannot be as evasive with a C3 like you can on the ground because there is no bonus for faster acceleration/speed so no matter how good your assault or PWS dropship is any decent Warship is superior. The only thing that can be super evasive is a fighter (mostly due to the <500 ton mods) which cannot carry Naval C3.

Daryk

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #11 on: 09 March 2024, 10:58:18 »
At only 4 weapons over the "no Fire Control" threshold, I can't help but think you could upgrade at least some of the Medium NPPCs to Heavies with the saved tonnage.

AlphaMirage

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #12 on: 09 March 2024, 11:18:09 »
Another thing I thought of, you cannot roll over, maintain acceleration or vector with nose mounted firepower. You'd be showing your aft which is typically less armored and with worse crit tables in that configuration. That and anything nose mounted has to deal with the Doppler of your thrust so it will be getting closer, side mounted weapons can presume that under normal thrust something beside you might maintain its range

Primus203

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #13 on: 09 March 2024, 13:24:39 »
Sorry for late responese went to bed. On the fuel dropship front the fleet Im doing is all custom ships and aero fighters are one of my greatest worries. So everything I have is meant to have aa slash pd and everything has armor. All warship fleet no jumpships and the mothership for the oiler dropship below carries ten such dropships and enough fuel to refuel all of them once. I.e. s little over hundred seventy thousand tons.

Gas Can Dropship Oiler
Type: Military Spheriod
Mass: 45,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Introduced: 3065
Mass: 45,000
Battle Value: 13,388
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-E
Cost: 1,295,056,000 C-bills

Fuel: 500 tons (5,000)
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Heat Sinks: 750 (1500)
Structural Integrity: 70

Armor
    Nose: 740
    Sides: 628/628
    Aft: 516

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Cargo (540.0 tons)      1 Door   
    Bay 2:  Cargo (Liquid) (4550.0 tons)1 Door   
    Bay 3:  Cargo (Liquid) (4550.0 tons)1 Door   
    Bay 4:  Cargo (Liquid) (4550.0 tons)1 Door   
    Bay 5:  Cargo (Liquid) (4550.0 tons)1 Door   

Ammunition:
   None

Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 5
Crew:  13 officers, 64 gunners      

Notes: Mounts 180 tons of heavy ferro-aluminum armor.

Weapons:                    Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)              Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV     ERV   Class       
Nose (220 Heat)
1 Laser AMS              7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Laser AMS              7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Laser AMS              7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Laser AMS              7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
RS/LS Fwd (220 Heat)
1 Laser AMS              7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Laser AMS              7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Laser AMS              7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Laser AMS              7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
RS/LS Aft (220 Heat)
1 Laser AMS              7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Laser AMS              7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Laser AMS              7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Laser AMS              7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
Aft (220 Heat)
1 Laser AMS              7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Laser AMS              7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Laser AMS              7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Laser AMS              7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I hope I got the right forum function to save space still figuring it out. Also the ballista is part of a fleet of similarly designed warships I just made this thread to see how good or bad the all nose design was. I'm now redesigning my fleet to be more inline with the refined ballista.

One of the big design changes to the fleet is due to my lack of knowledge of bracket fire rules. My lightest warship class a 120k mounts two hnppc it would be better served with a nl55 bay of four and I save weight my support oilers ,transports and supply ships would benefit similarly.

Hellraiser

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #14 on: 09 March 2024, 14:19:36 »
As noted, yes, a Nose-Only Battleship is a bad idea.

What is with all the LBX weapons?
LPLs would be a better use of your tonnage.

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

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Primus203

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #15 on: 09 March 2024, 14:28:33 »
First the ship your seeing has already been remodeled based on advice by the time of your post look down about four posts from start at ballista refined.

Second on the lb-x which have since been removed I didn't understand that they aren't nearly so good in space. They have been removed along with their several hundred tons of ammo per face and replaced with a mix of sub capital lasers and er large lasers.

Er large lasers have been chosen over pulse for range though forum goers may have different opinions over range or to hit chance.

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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  • Posts: 1798
Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #16 on: 09 March 2024, 15:21:39 »
The problem is warship's inability to go backward directly. There is a reason why many ships from the modern period of our real era sets the guns on both sides of the ships rather than front or rear. Such an inefficiency is inevitable for the ships can only move forward, and is unable to turn around back so quickly and/or does not requires to turn so quickly or crash/overshoot the enemy and leaves the target far behind unlike fighter aircrafts.

Aside bearing the additional risk to expose your thruster as well, if I can only spare one arc for the capital weapon bay I'd choose the rear side instead, for the ship could shoot while keep making the distance with the target, thus making all guns on a single side a viable option. Only if there is the reverse thruster on the warship, all nose gun is a quite viable thing for the pocket warships(that is dropship) to cheaper light warships. But as I know they lacks such components.

An another possible exception is when you need a pursuit craft. Such as Kimagure class cruiser that have many guns on its nose as well for its main duty is to pursuit the enemy.

Also don't forget Fire Control tonnage for any arc with more than 20 weapons.  The real power of WarShips is that they have two more arcs than smaller ships.  Fortunately, AMS don't count as weapons, so you can still slather those on generously.

Well, as I know nothing says AMS does not uses the slots. It does counts for 12/20 weapons on an arc, indeed. All it lacks is the crew, nothing more.

Else is there any changes that I did not checked?

AlphaMirage

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  • Posts: 3648
Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #17 on: 09 March 2024, 16:40:20 »
Sorry for late responese went to bed. On the fuel dropship front the fleet Im doing is all custom ships and aero fighters are one of my greatest worries. So everything I have is meant to have aa slash pd and everything has armor. All warship fleet no jumpships and the mothership for the oiler dropship below carries ten such dropships and enough fuel to refuel all of them once. I.e. s little over hundred seventy thousand tons.

One of the big design changes to the fleet is due to my lack of knowledge of bracket fire rules. My lightest warship class a 120k mounts two hnppc it would be better served with a nl55 bay of four and I save weight my support oilers ,transports and supply ships would benefit similarly.

Aerospace fighters and Pocket Missileships are a strange thing in space battles. They are dangerous yes but not nearly as much as you'd think to Warships. Dropping Alamos from fighters on Warships is actually pretty difficult and slows them down dramatically. Pocket Warships get smashed by proper Warships unless they have their own Warship to provide cover in which case they act in support with Anti-Fighter and Anti-Missile Missiles, while they are good against anything but well designed Fast Assault Dropships. Fast Assault Dropships are murder on fighters with a single vessel packing the firepower of a squadron that it can then focus on them to defeat in detail.

Most canon Fighters only have enough fuel for two or three passes against an accelerating Warship due to their need to overmatch acceleration and short weapon ranges. This greatly limits their effective range. Having a slower acceleration can give the faster Warship more dwell time to eliminate them from well outside their effective range. They are however murderous against dropships which must detach from their Warship under thrust and which are very cost-inefficient in a battle, plus add to your collar burden and associated KF drive expense. So its fighters vs dropships and the Warship can do little to directly aid their escorting flotilla against an assault other than intercepting their fighters with your own.

Remember in the great expanse of space it is easy to disengage if you don't want to fight and hard to force the enemy into a fight without being faster than they are.

If fighters are your primary worry what you need are Battlecruisers (with strong broadsides) or fast Destroyers (with strong quarter bays) that can move 4/6 or a Corvette (with strong nose/aft bays) that goes 5/8 with lots of Naval Lasers (for killing small craft and fighters), some N-PPCs (for killing dropships and fighting Warships), and Capital Missile Launchers (for ortillery, anti-fighter, and versatility). At 4/6 very few fighters can keep pace with your acceleration as they'd have to go 7/11 or higher, or their carrier would have to move 5/8 or faster, in order to come within range of your own capital weapons (and death) or escorting fighters.

Primus203

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #18 on: 09 March 2024, 18:25:06 »
Honestly while I worry about fighters swarming me I'm probably now just as worried about a well built combat dropship. Their part of the reason my revised designs are heavy on sub cap lasers though the anti fighter setting doesn't hurt. Below is the combat dropship that's the backbone of my navy and one of the kind of things I worry about.

Code: [Select]
Defender Interceptor Dropship
Type: Military Spheriod
Mass: 35,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Introduced: 3065
Mass: 35,000
Battle Value: 43,684
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-E
Cost: 3,010,128,800 C-bills

Fuel: 400 tons (8,000)
Safe Thrust: 6
Maximum Thrust: 9
Heat Sinks: 1000 (2000)
Structural Integrity: 140

Armor
    Nose: 1652
    Sides: 1400/1400
    Aft: 1148

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Fighter (10)            7 Doors   
    Bay 2:  Cargo (431.0 tons)      1 Door   

Ammunition:
    150 rounds of Piranha ammunition (1,500 tons)

Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 12
Crew:  12 officers, 54 gunners, 20 bay personnel, 10 marines

Notes: Mounts 504 tons of standard aerospace armor.

Weapons:                                      Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                                Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV     ERV   Class       
Nose (582 Heat)
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
5 Sub-Capital Laser /3                    160  15(150) 15(150)  0(0)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
4 Sub-Capital Missile Launcher (Piranha)  36   12(120) 12(120) 12(120)  0(0)  Sub-Capital Missile
    Piranha Ammo (150 shots)
5 Sub-Capital Laser /3                    160  15(150) 15(150)  0(0)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
RS/LS Fwd (226 Heat)
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
RS/LS Aft (226 Heat)
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
Aft (226 Heat)
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser

Also a question can i bracket fighters with subcap lasers in anti fighter mode?
« Last Edit: 09 March 2024, 19:06:36 by Primus203 »

AlphaMirage

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  • Posts: 3648
Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #19 on: 09 March 2024, 19:20:55 »
The thing is that unit costs to much (yes I know dropship multipliers are out of whack, still its what we have) you can get an adequate light Destroyer Warship, two or three big Jumpships, and/or Regiment of top tier Mechs for a pair of them. The best defense against your foes' fleet and aerospace forces is occupying their ground after all. With a 4/6 battlecruiser you can kite it pretty effectively and destroy many of them before they close within effective range. Unlike fighters Dropships don't get a +5 mod to hit so they are fairly easy to hit at range without bracketing down very far with N-PPCs. Thus unless there were a lot of them you have little to fear in your ballista. Also while you are doing that you are imposing severe economic damage to your adversary in the process.

Primus203

  • Corporal
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  • Posts: 78
Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #20 on: 09 March 2024, 23:39:05 »
Alright so I've taken a bunch of your advice into account and done several more redesigns. First my ships have significantly reduced dropship amounts. For example the ballista drops from twenty four to eight like a star league battleship. This reduces cost from seventy three billion to thirty five billion.

I also shrunk and slightly simplified my combat dropship losing forty percent of capital firepower as well as a similar amount of cost. Secondary anti fighter slash point defense batteries are unchanged. Armor level remains similar as well.
Code: [Select]
Defender Interceptor Dropship Refine
Type: Military Spheriod
Mass: 25,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Introduced: 3065
Mass: 25,000
Battle Value: 40,212
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-E
Cost: 1,839,308,800 C-bills

Fuel: 400 tons (8,000)
Safe Thrust: 6
Maximum Thrust: 9
Heat Sinks: 1000 (2000)
Structural Integrity: 140

Armor
    Nose: 1955
    Sides: 1652/1652
    Aft: 1349

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Fighter (6)             6 Doors   
    Bay 2:  Cargo (Liquid) (273.0 tons)1 Door   
    Bay 3:  Cargo (878.0 tons)      1 Door   

Ammunition:
    115 rounds of Piranha ammunition (1,350 tons)

Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 12
Crew:  12 officers, 54 gunners, 12 bay personnel, 10 marines

Notes: Mounts 504 tons of standard aerospace armor.

Weapons:                                      Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                                Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV     ERV   Class       
Nose (413 Heat)
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
3 Sub-Capital Missile Launcher (Piranha)  27   9(90)   9(90)   9(90)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Missile
    Piranha Ammo (115 shots)
5 Sub-Capital Laser /3                    160  15(150) 15(150)  0(0)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
RS/LS Fwd (226 Heat)
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
RS/LS Aft (226 Heat)
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
Aft (226 Heat)
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser     
My arrowhead a solid heavy destroyer goes from ten to four dropships going from about thirty five billion
Code: [Select]
Arrowhead Class Warship
Mass: 525,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Introduced: 3065
Mass: 525,000
Battle Value: 105,080
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-F
Cost: 34,773,237,000 C-bills

Fuel: 1,500 tons (3,750)
Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Sail Integrity: 4
KF Drive Integrity: 12
Heat Sinks: 3500 (7000)
Structural Integrity: 75

Armor
    Nose: 183
    Fore Sides: 150/150
    Aft Sides: 133/133
    Aft: 86

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Fighter (24)            12 Doors 
    Bay 2:  Cargo (Liquid) (2275.0 tons)1 Door   
    Bay 3:  Cargo (15243.5 tons)    1 Door   

Ammunition:
None

Dropship Capacity: 10
Grav Decks: 2 (250 m, 250 m)
Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 50
Crew:  42 officers, 120 enlisted/non-rated, 99 gunners, 48 bay personnel, 50 marines

Notes: Equipped with
    lithium-fusion battery system
    1 Naval Comm-Scanner Suite (Large)
    1 Naval C3
787 tons of lamellor ferro-carbide armor.

Weapons:                    Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)              Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (3,770 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
4 Naval Laser 55        340  22(220) 22(220) 22(220) 22(220)  Capital Laser
4 Naval Laser 55        340  22(220) 22(220) 22(220) 22(220)  Capital Laser
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)     900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)     900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)     900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
FRS/FLS (382 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
RBS/LBS (382 Heat)
1 Laser AMS              7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Laser AMS              7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
ARS/ALS (382 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
Aft (414 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser   
To about twenty billion with below modification about a forty percent drop in cost.
Code: [Select]
Arrowhead Class Refine Warship
Mass: 525,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Introduced: 3065
Mass: 525,000
Battle Value: 106,220
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-F
Cost: 20,347,686,600 C-bills

Fuel: 1,500 tons (3,750)
Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Sail Integrity: 4
KF Drive Integrity: 12
Heat Sinks: 3500 (7000)
Structural Integrity: 80

Armor
    Nose: 192
    Fore Sides: 160/160
    Aft Sides: 142/142
    Aft: 92

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Fighter (24)            12 Doors 
    Bay 2:  Cargo (Liquid) (2500.0 tons)1 Door   
    Bay 3:  Cargo (18318.747 tons)  1 Door   

Ammunition:
None

Dropship Capacity: 4
Grav Decks: 2 (250 m, 250 m)
Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 50
Crew:  42 officers, 120 enlisted/non-rated, 99 gunners, 48 bay personnel, 50 marines

Notes: Equipped with
    lithium-fusion battery system
    1 Naval Comm-Scanner Suite (Large)
    1 Naval C3
840 tons of lamellor ferro-carbide armor.

Weapons:                    Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)              Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (3,770 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
4 Naval Laser 55        340  22(220) 22(220) 22(220) 22(220)  Capital Laser
4 Naval Laser 55        340  22(220) 22(220) 22(220) 22(220)  Capital Laser
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)     900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)     900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)     900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
FRS/FLS (382 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
RBS/LBS (382 Heat)
1 Laser AMS              7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Laser AMS              7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
ARS/ALS (382 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
Aft (414 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
The arrowhead is one point of speed faster than the rest of the fleet do you guys think I should reduce the speed to match rest of fleet? This would also free up thirty thousand tons.

And finally my buckler light frigate dropping from two to no dropships drops cost from just under twelve billion to just over seven billion.

 Here is an important question though I know docking hardpoints are needed to jump a dropship. However if I have none can I still connect a dropship to my warship to resupply my warship?

This capability is necessary as the buckler has to little space to sore supplies without costing significant capability. A buckler with one docking hardpoint is nine and a half billion.
Code: [Select]
Buckler Frigate Refine Light Fleet Warship
Mass: 120,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Introduced: 3065
Mass: 120,000
Battle Value: 30,213
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-F
Cost: 7,090,144,000 C-bills

Fuel: 1,500 tons (7,500)
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Sail Integrity: 3
KF Drive Integrity: 5
Heat Sinks: 1500 (3000)
Structural Integrity: 85

Armor
    Nose: 69
    Fore Sides: 58/58
    Aft Sides: 51/51
    Aft: 35

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Fighter (24)            8 Doors   
    Bay 2:  Cargo (Liquid) (455.0 tons)1 Door   
    Bay 3:  Cargo (5567.0 tons)     1 Door   

Ammunition:
None

Dropship Capacity: 0
Grav Decks: 1 (250 m)
Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 35
Crew:  20 officers, 49 enlisted/non-rated, 88 gunners, 48 bay personnel, 25 marines

Notes: Equipped with
    lithium-fusion battery system
    1 Naval C3
192 tons of lamellor ferro-carbide armor.

Weapons:                    Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)              Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (942 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
4 Naval Laser 55        340  22(220) 22(220) 22(220) 22(220)  Capital Laser
4 Naval Laser 55        340  22(220) 22(220) 22(220) 22(220)  Capital Laser
FRS/FLS (262 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
RBS/LBS (262 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
ARS/ALS (262 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
Aft (262 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       

Lagrange

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #21 on: 10 March 2024, 00:21:29 »
For nose mounted weapons, you gain almost-double weapons as long as the weapon count isn't to high.  You lose by being easier to hit, not being able to keep range, a somewhat worse critical chart, AMS/weapon slot contention, and not being able to return fire when you can't control the arc.   

Overall, I'd say that nose mount warships are a reasonable choice if the predominant strategy is "close with the enemy and slug it out" and you spread armor appropriately.

AlphaMirage

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #22 on: 10 March 2024, 00:53:50 »
For nose mounted weapons, you gain almost-double weapons as long as the weapon count isn't to high.  You lose by being easier to hit, not being able to keep range, a somewhat worse critical chart, AMS/weapon slot contention, and not being able to return fire when you can't control the arc.   

Overall, I'd say that nose mount warships are a reasonable choice if the predominant strategy is "close with the enemy and slug it out" and you spread armor appropriately.

I still disagree, you can close with an enemy ship, shift into broadside and wail on them just as easily, while being able to turn and roll or simply pass through with your velocity presenting fresh armor and weapons, effectively increasing your protection by 150% versus a three location forward aspect. The only time IMO you should only have heavy weapons in the nose is if your ship is so light you can only afford to fill one bay with death dealing like a PWS or maybe some Corvettes optimized for stern chases. With nose and forward quarter decks you get so much extra capability but still it's contextual to only having enough tonnage to equip 3 bays with the capital weapons you want rather than 4 (quarter-decks), 5 (quarter-decks + nose), 6 (full broadsides), or 8 (all aspect brawler).

For Primus
You actually do have a lot of mass for just the Frigate with the Buckler, if its meant to operate as a fleet I'd say you don't need more. While you could dock you could also replace those 24 fighters with an 18 strong Group of Small Craft to conduct cargo transfers and support your fleet in other ways like Early Warning, refueling, ECM, AMS (putting AMS on Small Craft does basically the same thing as having them on your warship as long as you position them between the threat and yourself), and SAR. Small Craft bays can also be used to carry fighters if you need a temporary berth for orphaned fighters.

For the Arrowhead, if you want to keep its firepower forward focused why not just split the HNPPC and NL bays between the Nose and Forward quarterdecks while adding another NL/55? You can still focus fire forward but have a wider threat cone for almost the same mass.

Suggestion:  Just add to your overall fuel instead of having a separate liquid cargo bay (your water is already reclaimed and processed). That way your Warship can use it or give it to fighters and dropships.

Observation:  While having many separate bays gives you a greater chance of hit it is reducing your threshold critical potential. Crits can render Aerospace fighters and Dropships ineffective faster than damage and with velocity rules you're only going to get a few shots at them before they blaze past you (and unless evasive are easier targets for standard weapons). Massed standard weapons for killing fighters are better on combat dropships like I mentioned before and you should have some of those escorting your flotilla (at least one for each carrier).

There's a fine balancing match to be had between threshold and raw damage potential. 4-5 Cap damage can threshold some medium fighters (<45) and is doable with reasonable #s of MPLs or LLs. You'd need 6-8 (with ERPPCs, Gauss, or UAC/20s) to get through some heavier ones (45-60). >60 its better to rely on dual/triple Sub-Caps and NLs for the damage potential, range advantage, and versatility (of killing dropships) while ensuring at least one is likely to connect in a meaningful way. You aren't likely to bring down an incoming Aerospace fighter with a single SCL/3 or NL/55 strike but 3 at once or two NL/55s for 11, now that has a high chance of killing or crippling, even the notoriously tough Eisensturm will be stripped of nose armor with 11 capital, which means you can shoot something different next turn or finish it off with standard weapons when it comes near. For your peer defense quad NL/55s are your friend (or PWS with Santa Anas and Krakens) as those can crit into a Defender even if it needs a full salvo of NPPCs to blow it up for good.

Primus203

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #23 on: 10 March 2024, 01:02:03 »
The reason i haven't moved weapons to front left and right quarters was as far as i could read they wouldnt overlap reducing firepower.

AlphaMirage

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #24 on: 10 March 2024, 01:18:42 »
They don't its true and part of the reason broadsides are best.

However, the wider arc to engage hostiles coming in from the sides makes them superior IMO. Its actually incredibly difficult to keep nose on target during map combat unless your enemy is very obliging, you are exceptionally good at predicting their vector, or you ECHO (with the inherent accuracy penalty and loss of thrust) so lots of stuff comes in on an angle just by the nature of the hexes, particularly as you get closer in range.

This is absolutely true when dealing with fighters as they move last in any engagement during turn order and combat dropships go after Warships, thus these threats can position themselves off-bore with respect to your heaviest firepower.

Quarter decks can still engage them while the nose might be able to face an enemy Warship possibly with the opposite Quarterdeck in support.

Mechanis

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #25 on: 10 March 2024, 02:42:19 »
There's a reason why I'm so fond of twin ERLLs as the main PD for anti-fighter: they are energy weapons and therefore logistically light, have Long range, which is pretty much the limit of an ASF's engagement envelope, and 16 damage will threshold any fighter ever made, because getting 161 armor points on an ASF is either impossible outright, or requires cutting down the weapons load so much that it simply isn't much of a threat. Though I will say that single NLs and any SCLs other than the SCL/1 will *also* do so, as well as threshold most canon DropShip designs.the thing with WarShips is they can bring enough firepower they don't need to faff about with thresholding ASF, they can just make them suffer Sudden Existence Failure because even an NL 35 is going to tear any ASF a structurally superfluous new be-hind in a single hit.

And just for reference, the WarShip arcs do overlap the immediately adjacent arcs, if you're pointing your Nose directly at the target both fore side arcs can fire on it(granted, there's only a one-hex line of overlap for those so this is a lot harder than it sounds)

It's just that if you're side-on you can fire four to five arcs at a target. And can play keep-away more effectively, so you can avoid the close range exchange of fire that is instant death for a WarShip.
(WarShips never, ever, *ever* want to be in Medium Range of another WarShip, let alone Short Range, they're just too fragile for that kind of combat. There's a reason why all the canon designs that clear the okay threshold are the ones that are built for extreme range bracketing fire like the McKenna.)

Primus203

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #26 on: 10 March 2024, 03:18:01 »
So the only thing I could think of without a full fleet redesign based on everyone's responses is a heavy shorter range broadside combatant to make getting close an unattractive proposition. So before I head off to sleep ill post my design for this presenting the brawler a ballista variant with enough nac40s per broadside to completely remove most of the armor of a well built dreadnought in a single volley. Fyi i haven't broken the ams and secondaries into individual bay but I'm tired so ill do that tomorrow.

Code: [Select]
Brawler Light Battleship
Mass: 1,200,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Introduced: 3065
Mass: 1,200,000
Battle Value: 311,499
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-F
Cost: 18,551,762,000 C-bills

Fuel: 3,500 tons (8,750)
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Sail Integrity: 6
KF Drive Integrity: 24
Heat Sinks: 4500 (9000)
Structural Integrity: 140

Armor
    Nose: 754
    Fore Sides: 619/619
    Aft Sides: 551/551
    Aft: 350

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Fighter (30)            15 Doors 
    Bay 2:  Cargo (29609.0 tons)    1 Door   

Ammunition:
    3,600 rounds of NAC/40 ammunition (43.2 tons)

Dropship Capacity: 1
Grav Decks: 2 (200 m, 200 m)
Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 0
Crew:  65 officers, 220 enlisted/non-rated, 134 gunners, 60 bay personnel, 40 BA marines

Notes: Equipped with
    lithium-fusion battery system
    1 Naval C3
3,360 tons of lamellor ferro-carbide armor.

Weapons:                         Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                   Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (1,378 Heat)
4 Naval Laser 55             340  22(220) 22(220) 22(220) 22(220)  Capital Laser
4 Naval Laser 55             340  22(220) 22(220) 22(220) 22(220)  Capital Laser
4 Naval Laser 55             340  22(220) 22(220) 22(220) 22(220)  Capital Laser
10 Laser AMS                 70   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
9 Sub-Capital Laser /3       288  27(270) 27(270)  0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
FRS/FLS (1,058 Heat)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)  135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (100 shots)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)  135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (100 shots)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)  135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (100 shots)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)  135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (100 shots)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)  135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (100 shots)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)  135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (100 shots)
8 Laser AMS                  56   2(24)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
6 Sub-Capital Laser /3       192  18(180) 18(180)  0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
RBS/LBS (1,058 Heat)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)  135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (100 shots)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)  135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (100 shots)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)  135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (100 shots)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)  135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (100 shots)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)  135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (100 shots)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)  135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (100 shots)
8 Laser AMS                  56   2(24)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
6 Sub-Capital Laser /3       192  18(180) 18(180)  0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
ARS/ALS (1,058 Heat)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)  135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (100 shots)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)  135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (100 shots)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)  135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (100 shots)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)  135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (100 shots)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)  135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (100 shots)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)  135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (100 shots)
8 Laser AMS                  56   2(24)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
6 Sub-Capital Laser /3       192  18(180) 18(180)  0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
Aft (390 Heat)
10 Laser AMS                 70   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
10 Sub-Capital Laser /3      320  30(300) 30(300)  0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser

Hellraiser

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #27 on: 10 March 2024, 14:19:46 »
NAC40 are notoriously bad for NACs.   Up there with NAC10's for inefficiency.

Give yourself a Pair of NAC35's in a bay for a full 70 point hit at Medium Range
Or Paired NAC30's for a 60 point hit that reaches to Long Range.

When I'm going for "Efficiency/Optimal" builds like your trying to do I do the following so that I'm still saving tonnage w/o creating any glaring weaknesses.

Nose & Rear = 2 Cap Guns + 18 Standard   (No Fire Control Needed)
Fore & Aft Side Bays = 8 Cap Guns & 12 Standard   (No Fire Control Needed)
Broadsides = 0-Cap Guns & MANY Standard Guns   (Fire Control limited to lower tonnage weapons)



This allows for decent nose/rear fire with the side arcs almost overlapping while the broadsides & sides do all overlap for a "double" array of cap guns.

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

assaultdoor

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #28 on: 10 March 2024, 15:17:20 »
Here is an important question though I know docking hardpoints are needed to jump a dropship. However if I have none can I still connect a dropship to my warship to resupply my warship?

Per Campaign Operations, two Large Craft must be docked to transfer cargo. Fortunately, per Strategic Operations page 54, docking can be done by linking bay doors. You only need a docking hardpoint to carry DropShips on a jump.

Primus203

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #29 on: 10 March 2024, 15:49:32 »
Alright hellraiser I took your advice into consideration and refit the brawler with Nac30s instead of thirty fives for range. I kept similar capital fire power by sacrificing two sub caps 3 lasers per side to keep under twenty gun fire control penalty and added two nac30 in place.

I had some issues fitting the ammo until I decided to drop one of the three forward nl55 bays as this was only designed to support the nose weapon fleet and wasn't to great a loss.

The last change is three small craft with six units of battle armored troops specialized for boarding operations if the enemy closes even more.

The Brawler
Code: [Select]
Brawler Light Battleship nac30 refine
Mass: 1,200,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Introduced: 3065
Mass: 1,200,000
Battle Value: 381,409
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-F
Cost: 18,234,974,000 C-bills

Fuel: 3,000 tons (7,500)
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Sail Integrity: 6
KF Drive Integrity: 24
Heat Sinks: 4200 (8400)
Structural Integrity: 140

Armor
    Nose: 754
    Fore Sides: 619/619
    Aft Sides: 551/551
    Aft: 350

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Fighter (30)            15 Doors 
    Bay 2:  Small Craft (3)         3 Doors   
    Bay 3:  Cargo (27877.0 tons)    1 Door   

Ammunition:
    9,600 rounds of NAC/30 ammunition (19.2 tons)

Dropship Capacity: 1
Grav Decks: 2 (200 m, 200 m)
Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 100
Crew:  65 officers, 220 enlisted/non-rated, 110 gunners, 75 bay personnel, 40 BA marines

Notes: Equipped with
    lithium-fusion battery system
    1 Naval C3
3,360 tons of lamellor ferro-carbide armor.

Weapons:                         Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                   Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (1,006 Heat)
4 Naval Laser 55             340  22(220) 22(220) 22(220) 22(220)  Capital Laser
4 Naval Laser 55             340  22(220) 22(220) 22(220) 22(220)  Capital Laser
2 Laser AMS                  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Sub-Capital Laser /3       64   6(60)   6(60)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 Sub-Capital Laser /3       64   6(60)   6(60)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 Sub-Capital Laser /3       64   6(60)   6(60)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 Sub-Capital Laser /3       64   6(60)   6(60)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
FRS/FLS (984 Heat)
2 Laser AMS                  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Sub-Capital Laser /3       64   6(60)   6(60)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 Sub-Capital Laser /3       64   6(60)   6(60)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/30)  200  60(600) 60(600) 60(600)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/30 Ammo (400 shots)
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/30)  200  60(600) 60(600) 60(600)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/30 Ammo (400 shots)
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/30)  200  60(600) 60(600) 60(600)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/30 Ammo (400 shots)
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/30)  200  60(600) 60(600) 60(600)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/30 Ammo (400 shots)
RBS/LBS (984 Heat)
2 Laser AMS                  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Sub-Capital Laser /3       64   6(60)   6(60)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 Sub-Capital Laser /3       64   6(60)   6(60)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/30)  200  60(600) 60(600) 60(600)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/30 Ammo (400 shots)
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/30)  200  60(600) 60(600) 60(600)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/30 Ammo (400 shots)
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/30)  200  60(600) 60(600) 60(600)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/30 Ammo (400 shots)
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/30)  200  60(600) 60(600) 60(600)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/30 Ammo (400 shots)
ARS/ALS (984 Heat)
2 Laser AMS                  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Sub-Capital Laser /3       64   6(60)   6(60)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 Sub-Capital Laser /3       64   6(60)   6(60)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/30)  200  60(600) 60(600) 60(600)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/30 Ammo (400 shots)
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/30)  200  60(600) 60(600) 60(600)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/30 Ammo (400 shots)
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/30)  200  60(600) 60(600) 60(600)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/30 Ammo (400 shots)
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/30)  200  60(600) 60(600) 60(600)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/30 Ammo (400 shots)
Aft (390 Heat)
2 Laser AMS                  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Sub-Capital Laser /3       64   6(60)   6(60)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 Sub-Capital Laser /3       64   6(60)   6(60)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 Sub-Capital Laser /3       64   6(60)   6(60)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 Sub-Capital Laser /3       64   6(60)   6(60)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 Sub-Capital Laser /3       64   6(60)   6(60)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser

The boarding small craft
Code: [Select]
Brawler Boarding Ship
Type: Military Spheriod
Mass: 200 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Introduced: 3065
Mass: 200
Battle Value: 1,928
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-E
Cost: 24,306,620 C-bills

Fuel: 31 tons (2,480)
Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Heat Sinks: 12 (24)
Structural Integrity: 9

Armor
    Nose: 199
    Sides: 168/168
    Aft: 135

Cargo
    Bay 1:  BattleArmor (IS) (6)    3 Doors   

Ammunition:
None

Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 0
Crew:  1 officer, 2 enlisted/non-rated, 36 bay personnel

Notes: Mounts 32 tons of heavy ferro-aluminum armor.

Weapons
and Ammo              Location   Tonnage  Heat   SRV  MRV  LRV  ERV
Laser AMS               Nose      1.5      7      3    0    0    0 
Laser AMS              Fwd R      1.5      7      3    0    0    0 
Laser AMS              Fwd L      1.5      7      3    0    0    0 
Angel ECM Suite         Hull      2.0      -      -    -    -    - 

And the battlearmor which for some reason my program doesn't show the weapons in anti personel mounts but its four wakazashi o-12s.
Code: [Select]
Marine Raider BattleArmor
Type: Marine Raider
Manufacturer: Unknown
    Primary Factory: Unknown

Tech Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Chassis Type:  Biped
Weight Class: Medium
Maximum Weight: 1,000 kg
Battle Value: 224
Swarm/Leg Attack/Mechanized/AP: Yes/Yes/Yes/Yes
</p>

Equipment                                     Slots      Mass
Chassis:                                               175 kg
Motive System:                                               
     Ground MP:          3                              80 kg
     Jump MP:            0                               0 kg
Manipulators:                                                 
    Left Arm:            Heavy Vibro-Claw               60 kg
    Right Arm:           Heavy Vibro-Claw               60 kg
Armor:                   Standard (Basic)       0      350 kg
    Armor Value:         8 (Trooper)                         

                                         Slots           
Weapons and Equipment         Location (Capacity)   Mass 
Space Operations Adaptation     Body       1       100 kg
Cutting Torch                 Right Arm     1        5 kg 
Demolition Charge               None       0        0 kg 
Power Pack                      Body       1       25 kg 
Searchlight                   Left Arm     1        5 kg 
Extended Life Support           Body       1       25 kg 
Improved Sensors                Body       1       65 kg 
Anti Personnel Weapon Mount   Right Arm     1        5 kg 
Anti Personnel Weapon Mount   Left Arm     1        5 kg 
Anti Personnel Weapon Mount   Left Arm     1        5 kg 
Anti Personnel Weapon Mount   Right Arm     1        5 kg 
« Last Edit: 10 March 2024, 15:57:12 by Primus203 »

Daryk

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #30 on: 10 March 2024, 15:52:53 »
If you're ever short for tonnage, NL/45s can also reach Extreme Range (like 55s... 35s are limited to Long).

Primus203

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  • Posts: 78
Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #31 on: 10 March 2024, 16:04:07 »
A secondary question to people just so Im sure I understand some stuff capital damage is ten times regular weapon damage correct? Meaning my design below the gauss lancer with two improved heavy gauss rifles damage 22 would have four capital damage potential per turn.

Code: [Select]
Lancer Gauss Lancer

Mass: 100 tons
Frame: Lancer
Power Plant: 200 Light Lancer
Armor: Ferro-Aluminum
Armament:
     3 ER Medium Laser
     2 Improved Heavy Gauss Rifle
     1 Laser AMS
Manufacturer: Custom Aerospace
     Primary Factory: Custom Areospace
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3065
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-F-E
Cost: 17,074,500 C-bills

Type: Lancer
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Tonnage: 100
Battle Value: 2,672

Equipment                                          Mass
Engine                        300 XL                9.5
Safe Thrust: 5
Max Thrust: 8
Structural Integrity:         10                       
Heat Sinks:                   15 [30]                 5
Fuel:                         800                  10.0
Cockpit                                               3
Armor Factor (Ferro)          232                    13

                           Armor   
                           Value   
     Nose                    70   
     Wings                 58/58   
     Aft                     46   


Weapons
and Ammo                               Location   Tonnage  Heat   SRV  MRV  LRV  ERV
3 ER Medium Laser                        NOS       3.0      5      5    5    0    0 
Laser AMS                                NOS       1.5      7      3    0    0    0 
Improved Heavy Gauss Rifle               RWG       20.0     2     22   22   22    0 
Improved Heavy Gauss Rifle Ammo (16)     FSLG      4.0      -      -    -    -    - 
Targeting Computer                       FSLG      11.0     -      -    -    -    - 
Improved Heavy Gauss Rifle               LWG       20.0     2     22   22   22    0 

Daryk

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #32 on: 10 March 2024, 16:30:44 »
Sounds right to me...

Hellraiser

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #33 on: 10 March 2024, 16:33:35 »
Yes, but, only if it lined up the shot in the 1 hex row directly out from the Nose since the wings only overlap in that 1 line.

Otherwise if your off row from the target even 1 row you only get 1 wing or the other.



For the Battleship, If I was trying to make a sniper out of the front bay I think I'd pack it with something like this.

Nose:
HNPPC *4   (60-Extreme w/ Brackets)
NL45 *5   (23-Extreme w/ Brackets or AA fire)
Screen Launcher *1   (Protection as you close from multiple targets)
AMS *2  (*5)


You can probably reduce the # of NACs per Side bay a bit since they do overlap on the broadsides.   (Do SCL have AA & Bracket modes?)
If so, maybe something like this?

Fore/Aft Side....
NAC-30 *2
NAC-30 *2
NAC-30 *2
SCL-3  *4
ERLL-2/ERML-4
AMS *2  (*2)


Finally, I'd always want at least 2 guns in the AFT capable of providing Ortillery through the atmosphere.   (Not sure if SC weps do that well)
AFT:
HNPPC *2
SCL-3 *5
Screen Launcher *1
ERLL-2/ERML-4
AMS *2  (*3)
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

AlphaMirage

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  • Posts: 3648
Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #34 on: 10 March 2024, 16:37:39 »
An SCL/1 can do ortillery support but Capital missiles are better at it (and nuke capable) while remaining useful in space as you can bearings only launch them into broadsides or use them to fire at pursuing or passing hostiles.

Primus203

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  • Posts: 78
Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #35 on: 10 March 2024, 16:44:49 »
To hellraiser the brawler is a meant as a broadside combatant meant to heavily discourage the enemy from getting closer its designed to support the aforementioned nose weapon heavy fleet.

Also on the subject of ortillery the buckler my light frigate and most common warship has all around sub cap 1 laser for anti air so ortillery is taken care of.
« Last Edit: 10 March 2024, 16:46:54 by Primus203 »

Tyler Jorgensson

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #36 on: 10 March 2024, 18:15:25 »
I’m following for several reason: one because this is a good thread on evolving a design, and two… very interesting designs!

DevianID

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #37 on: 10 March 2024, 19:55:27 »
Not sure if anyone has played or seen 'Terra Invicta' but they have the physics space warship thing, and are big on nose weapons.  Why that works in that game though is engagement time.  That game is played roughly on the '10 second' turn while battlespace is on the 1 minute turn.  So in battlespace, you are way more committed to your approach with much less shooting actions per KM moved, while in Terra Invicta you have plenty of time to shoot nose weapons before the close.

In battlespace, the Meme engines means that its not too hard to come in at an angle, with side armor thats frankly impossible on such a long ship, and you can high-G burn at such a rate you are flung off the map in no time.  In high speed closing engagements this nose-heavy design shines:  You get 1 pass, so you want max nose armor and nose weapons.  But while high speed engagements are realistic, its a subset of the space combat that isnt seen much.  The more common game type is 'meet in the middle where both sides agree not to go too fast and fly off the map.'  In that game type, the nose-only design is immediately outmaneuvered and flanked.  If you try and stay near your board edge, the enemy flys off the map getting behind you, so thats not a good solution either as there is no 'pushing off the edge' in battlespace to prevent your ship from camping the hexmap corner, and the -2 'no thrust' penalty isnt really a penalty at all if they cant flank you or approach your rear.  So I just dont see how to actually play this ship without lots of caveats.

You have to agree to not corner camp, they have to agree not to go too fast to instantly nullify your front arc if you do move away from the board edge, ect.

Hellraiser

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #38 on: 10 March 2024, 20:14:13 »
But while high speed engagements are realistic, its a subset of the space combat that isnt seen much.  The more common game type is 'meet in the middle where both sides agree not to go too fast and fly off the map.'  In that game type, the nose-only design is immediately outmaneuvered and flanked.  If you try and stay near your board edge, the enemy flys off the map getting behind you, so thats not a good solution either as there is no 'pushing off the edge' in battlespace to prevent your ship from camping the hexmap corner, and the -2 'no thrust' penalty isnt really a penalty at all if they cant flank you or approach your rear.  So I just dont see how to actually play this ship without lots of caveats.

I think the problem here is actually playing out past 1 turn of a high speed fly by.

It's not the "edge of the map" that is the issue.
It's the "High Speed" part.

This isn't some 10 speed v/s 5 speed sort of thing.
If you don't spend nearly equal time "slowing down" then your gone, far past any ability to try & slow down & come back.
A true high speed pass is going to look something like an F-16 strafing grunts only w/o the ability to turn & bank back around in just a minute or so.  1 pass, never seen again.

The speeds they go past your out of weapons range the next turn.
And if your NOT going that fast, then its not a "High Speed" pass, its just, oh, a bit faster than you.

Correct me if my math is wrong here but at 1G build up on a 1 week from Jump Point to Planet time, your moving along at 10K+ velocity.
Heck, lets scale that back to just 15 minutes of build up at 1G & your going V-30 which at 2.5G will still take 6 turns to bring to 0 before your moving back for another pass.

What kind of game is that, 5-10 turns of ho-hum in between 1 turn of fire.
I don't even want to think about what that does over a long fight to the crew, lol.

All the map space in the world isn't going to make a true high speed game much fun as far as I can tell.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Hellraiser

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  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #39 on: 10 March 2024, 20:15:44 »
An SCL/1 can do ortillery support but Capital missiles are better at it (and nuke capable) while remaining useful in space as you can bearings only launch them into broadsides or use them to fire at pursuing or passing hostiles.

Good to know, I've never used Ortillery but I thought the rules for it made it pretty hard w/o some long range guns.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

DevianID

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #40 on: 10 March 2024, 20:50:52 »
I think the problem here is actually playing out past 1 turn of a high speed fly by.

It's not the "edge of the map" that is the issue.
It's the "High Speed" part.

This isn't some 10 speed v/s 5 speed sort of thing.
If you don't spend nearly equal time "slowing down" then your gone, far past any ability to try & slow down & come back.
A true high speed pass is going to look something like an F-16 strafing grunts only w/o the ability to turn & bank back around in just a minute or so.  1 pass, never seen again.

The speeds they go past your out of weapons range the next turn.
And if your NOT going that fast, then its not a "High Speed" pass, its just, oh, a bit faster than you.

Correct me if my math is wrong here but at 1G build up on a 1 week from Jump Point to Planet time, your moving along at 10K+ velocity.
Heck, lets scale that back to just 15 minutes of build up at 1G & your going V-30 which at 2.5G will still take 6 turns to bring to 0 before your moving back for another pass.

What kind of game is that, 5-10 turns of ho-hum in between 1 turn of fire.
I don't even want to think about what that does over a long fight to the crew, lol.

All the map space in the world isn't going to make a true high speed game much fun as far as I can tell.

There are specific rules for high speed engagements.  You dont play with a hexmap, per strat ops, cause like you point out at the velocities involved you wont see the other ship again for days.  But you dont even need weeks of acceleration to make the battlespace map too small.  A 3/5 ship trying to close with a nose-only fighter, after 3 turns, has moved 5+10+15 hexes, so is off the map on turn 4 using the neoprene space map.  If you have a 50 hex wide map, you are off the map turn 5 unless you reverse engines turn 3.  The whole time you are at an angle to the nose-cone warship, so you have very few engagement options.  On such a large map, if the nose-cone warship moves forward, well then they are out of arc turn 3 on a 50 wide space map as the other ships are halfway across the board cutting left and right of the nose cone, so one group always will be flanking.  If the nose-cone ship sits in the map corner, on the other hand, they are always in arc and nothing the enemy does maneuvering wise matters cause flying off the edge is bad and the gauss has range across the 50 hexes, with no chance of ever not being in arc.

So like, either you are instantly flanked, or you never move and are a nose arc god, and can 100% neglect your rear thanks to the map corner.  Both feel super unsatisfying.

Only the optional high speed pass combat rules make sense to me for a nose-cone warship; they are very abstracted but ultimately fair as each side picks their heading and such for the pass.  You dont have to fight the hexmap, and dont need a massive 50 hex play grid that is still too small by turn 5 for the slowest ships.

AlphaMirage

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #41 on: 10 March 2024, 21:11:14 »
Good to know, I've never used Ortillery but I thought the rules for it made it pretty hard w/o some long range guns.

Oh no, its still hard regardless. Ortillery is really more of an area target "to whom it may concern" thing unless you have a TAG spotter on the ground and even then, it might be off by a bit (maybe even into friendlies Helldivers 2 style). Capital missiles are much more accurate but have a few turn delay compared to instant energy pillar of doom.

Primus203

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  • Posts: 78
Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #42 on: 10 March 2024, 23:29:57 »
I'm a little glad that my topics sparked a decent amount of discussion. Anyways new design thrown out to add to fleet ideas. The Cataphract a heavy missile ship and probably rare for my fleet maybe only one for main fleet.

All around four piranhas per face to make aircraft and dropships cry hundred missiles per launcher. And then the broadside ten kraken-t per broadside capable face totaling  thirty kraken-t per broadside. Could only fit twenty five missiles per launcher though.

I've been given to understand that the bigger missiles are harder to shoot down so multiple krakens should get through. One of the biggest issues I see is that the Cataphract would need two of my three hundred thousand ton supply ships to reload once.
Code: [Select]
Cataphract Heavy Missile Cruiser
Mass: 1,200,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Introduced: 3065
Mass: 1,200,000
Battle Value: 243,558
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-F
Cost: 17,233,878,000 C-bills

Fuel: 3,000 tons (7,500)
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Sail Integrity: 6
KF Drive Integrity: 24
Heat Sinks: 4400 (8800)
Structural Integrity: 140

Armor
    Nose: 754
    Fore Sides: 619/619
    Aft Sides: 551/551
    Aft: 350

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Fighter (30)            15 Doors 
    Bay 2:  Cargo (27782.0 tons)    1 Door   

Ammunition:
    1,500 rounds of Kraken (Tele-Operated) ammunition (1,200 tons),
    3,200 rounds of Piranha ammunition (320 tons)

Dropship Capacity: 1
Grav Decks: 2 (200 m, 200 m)
Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 100
Crew:  63 officers, 222 enlisted/non-rated, 92 gunners, 60 bay personnel, 40 BA marines

Notes: Equipped with
    lithium-fusion battery system
    1 Naval C3
3,360 tons of lamellor ferro-carbide armor.

Weapons:                                      Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                                Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (148 Heat)
1 Sub-Capital Missile Launcher (Piranha)   9   3(30)   3(30)   3(30)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Missile
    Piranha Ammo (100 shots)
1 Sub-Capital Missile Launcher (Piranha)   9   3(30)   3(30)   3(30)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Missile
    Piranha Ammo (100 shots)
1 Sub-Capital Missile Launcher (Piranha)   9   3(30)   3(30)   3(30)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Missile
    Piranha Ammo (100 shots)
1 Sub-Capital Missile Launcher (Piranha)   9   3(30)   3(30)   3(30)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Missile
    Piranha Ammo (100 shots)
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
FRS/FLS (578 Heat)
1 Sub-Capital Missile Launcher (Piranha)   9   3(30)   3(30)   3(30)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Missile
    Piranha Ammo (100 shots)
1 Sub-Capital Missile Launcher (Piranha)   9   3(30)   3(30)   3(30)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Missile
    Piranha Ammo (100 shots)
1 Sub-Capital Missile Launcher (Piranha)   9   3(30)   3(30)   3(30)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Missile
    Piranha Ammo (100 shots)
1 Sub-Capital Missile Launcher (Piranha)   9   3(30)   3(30)   3(30)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Missile
    Piranha Ammo (100 shots)
5 Tele-operated Missile (Kraken T)        250  50(500) 50(500) 50(500) 50(500)  Tele-Operated Capital Missile
    Kraken (Tele-Operated) Ammo (125 shots)
5 Tele-operated Missile (Kraken T)        250  50(500) 50(500) 50(500) 50(500)  Tele-Operated Capital Missile
    Kraken (Tele-Operated) Ammo (125 shots)
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
RBS/LBS (578 Heat)
1 Sub-Capital Missile Launcher (Piranha)   9   3(30)   3(30)   3(30)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Missile
    Piranha Ammo (100 shots)
1 Sub-Capital Missile Launcher (Piranha)   9   3(30)   3(30)   3(30)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Missile
    Piranha Ammo (100 shots)
1 Sub-Capital Missile Launcher (Piranha)   9   3(30)   3(30)   3(30)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Missile
    Piranha Ammo (100 shots)
1 Sub-Capital Missile Launcher (Piranha)   9   3(30)   3(30)   3(30)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Missile
    Piranha Ammo (100 shots)
5 Tele-operated Missile (Kraken T)        250  50(500) 50(500) 50(500) 50(500)  Tele-Operated Capital Missile
    Kraken (Tele-Operated) Ammo (125 shots)
5 Tele-operated Missile (Kraken T)        250  50(500) 50(500) 50(500) 50(500)  Tele-Operated Capital Missile
    Kraken (Tele-Operated) Ammo (125 shots)
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
ARS/ALS (578 Heat)
1 Sub-Capital Missile Launcher (Piranha)   9   3(30)   3(30)   3(30)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Missile
    Piranha Ammo (100 shots)
1 Sub-Capital Missile Launcher (Piranha)   9   3(30)   3(30)   3(30)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Missile
    Piranha Ammo (100 shots)
1 Sub-Capital Missile Launcher (Piranha)   9   3(30)   3(30)   3(30)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Missile
    Piranha Ammo (100 shots)
1 Sub-Capital Missile Launcher (Piranha)   9   3(30)   3(30)   3(30)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Missile
    Piranha Ammo (100 shots)
5 Tele-operated Missile (Kraken T)        250  50(500) 50(500) 50(500) 50(500)  Tele-Operated Capital Missile
    Kraken (Tele-Operated) Ammo (125 shots)
5 Tele-operated Missile (Kraken T)        250  50(500) 50(500) 50(500) 50(500)  Tele-Operated Capital Missile
    Kraken (Tele-Operated) Ammo (125 shots)
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
Aft (148 Heat)
1 Sub-Capital Missile Launcher (Piranha)   9   3(30)   3(30)   3(30)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Missile
    Piranha Ammo (100 shots)
1 Sub-Capital Missile Launcher (Piranha)   9   3(30)   3(30)   3(30)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Missile
    Piranha Ammo (100 shots)
1 Sub-Capital Missile Launcher (Piranha)   9   3(30)   3(30)   3(30)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Missile
    Piranha Ammo (100 shots)
1 Sub-Capital Missile Launcher (Piranha)   9   3(30)   3(30)   3(30)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Missile
    Piranha Ammo (100 shots)
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
So I'm unsure if this design could hack it or not. I'm also don't know how bad teleoperated missiles will be affected compared to something like a standard Killer whale.

Also id like opinions. What do you guys think of lithium fusion batteries. Are they worth it from a tactical or strategic perspective? If I remove them the ship cost drops drastically.

The Ballista from 34.6 billion to 19 billion

The brawler from 18.2 billion to 13.8 billion

The Cataphract from 17.2 billion to 12.8 billion

The Arrowhead from 20.3 billion to 11.1 billion

And lastly the buckler from 7 billion to 4.3 billion

Seeing as the buckler is the most common followed by the arrowhead, then somewhat more distantly for the ballista, and finally very distantly for the brawler and cataphract this means removal of the lithium fusion battery allows me to increase fleet size by about sixty percent.

The downside is less jump range and no emergency exit jump.

AlphaMirage

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #43 on: 11 March 2024, 05:44:38 »
My opinion of the Kraken is that it is a very complicated weapon to make work properly. It only has 25 thrust points for instance which allows it to be outmaneuvered at range. Since it is teleoperated only it can be jammed by a clever adversary by putting 3 ECM hexes between it and your control ship. This is why I like ECM and AMS equipped Small Craft for the forward missile intercept role. It is however a fantastic orbital bombardment weapon if you don't want to use nukes for some reason. Teleoperated Missiles IMO are better on PWS that can attack from other angles than the line between Warships and want to keep range with their foe as you can kind of drift them in.

LF-batteries are complicated and very contextual. Three questions need to be asked with them:
Do you have enough ships to cover your empire sufficiently against your expected threats? If yes then you probably don't need them, if no you might.

Does your enemy possess LF-batteries and if so on what?
LF-batteries a major trade off, they are expensive and heavy, if you add them to a ship you won't be as capable of going against something in your weight bracket as readily since you'd be risking more resources with less mass. However, that doesn't mean you can't go bigger. Your enemy might have say LF-equipped Heavy Cruisers for commerce raiding. Now that is a major threat that your in-system ships might not be able to handle. Can you find them and summon more ships to fight them off before they jump out on their own after casing mayhem?

What is this ship's role? Like above, a LF-equipped Heavy Cruiser is a major threat to your enemy as it could be capable of overpowering a system's Frigate or Destroyer patrol (and getting away from a prowling Battleship or fellow Heavy Cruiser). You might be able to use that to your advantage to threaten them with a Fleet in Being mostly because they'd be expensive so you won't have as many of them. This keeps their fleet at home and away from your territory or battlegroup so it might be worth the tradeoff.

Additionally you could use a quick LF-equipped Corvette or Destroyer to execute a stern chase against unescorted enemy troop transports as they burn toward one of your worlds upon hearing about it. That might allow you to interdict an impending invasion force before they even enter planetary orbit, which would be your next best chance to intercept them, or seize their jumpships with boarding parties which can do the same. This dramatically increases the bar for your enemy to attack your planets as they'd need to either use Warships as transports or a Warship would be left behind to guard the jumpships against seizure.

Primus203

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #44 on: 11 March 2024, 16:02:14 »
Well for the ship design LF battery. My fleet is mainly expeditionary my microstate is only about twenty five light years in radius from the capital. Though it may need to range to the nearby powers whom I trade or am allied with.

To describe my fleet needs and design context. where am I? I'm in the middle of the area of space remaining unclaimed between the Lothian League, The Illyrian Palatinate, and the Circinus Federation.
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Why is there a developed system there? The system was settled under the star league in secret and high ranking military officials personal project it was to be a large fleet anchorage that would allow the star league to put pressure on the great houses from the rear in the event of any conflict. It was to be one of several. It is unknown if any others were started.

As it would be far away from any resupply the location would need to be self sufficient with the ability to provide munitions, food, parts, dropships, and mechs at a minimum.

 A good system was found with a slightly cooler mostly earthlike world with two habitable moons one moderately and one marginally habitable and two uninhabitable. There were several other uninhabitable planets in system with three asteroid belts.

 All in all a seemingly great location for a self sufficient anchorage. The only great downside to this system was that in a shocking and curious turn of events the system was germanium poor and what germanium did exist was in minuscule concentrations and was difficult and expensive to isolate.

This was not seen as too great a downside as there were systems nearby with decent or even one rich with germanium and satellite mining facilities could be established and a stockpile kept at the anchorage.
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How have I remained undiscovered until recently? First secret project. Second the value of this system and its being chosen for this project means that the star league lied and declared it in official record to be a hazardous system with limited value and even backdated the record to look old.

Wouldn't there have been some official records though? Yes there were the thing is everything is Amaris fault. The person in charge of the project and his staff were SLDF loyalists and were either executed or died in the fighting.

The jumpships that would have brought supplies to the system were commandeered by the SLDF fleet under Kerensky and the captains knowing an unfinished anchorage so far from the fighting wouldn't be of use decided against risking the secret coming out in the process of reaching Kerensky thinking that the war would be over quickly.

The war was not over quickly and these ships were all lost in the brutal fighting on the long road to retake Earth.

No hyper pulse generator? The system was still being built the necessary infrastructure to make hpg's was not complete before the coup.

Couldn't I make a jumpship with my facilities? Yes but for the fact that the system is so germanium poor it would take a long time. At the time of our rediscovery we had managed to stockpile about thirty five thousand tons at enormous expense.
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How were we found? A Lothian league survey vessel their only one was looking for some kind of windfall to help their ailing economy. It was launching survey probes in each system.

They decided to jump into my system as a hail mary having found nothin of note on their journey and hopping the star league missed something. They did find something and the captain soiled his pants when his jumpship was painted by a SDS warship.

Taking a representative of ours to their government it was eventually agreed on that the survey ship would be given to us giving us enough germanium to build a three hundred thousand ton ship using a warship drive.

In return we would be aiding the League with infrastructure improvements increasing quality of life and material output for trade as well as one hundred twenty aerospace fighters and spare parts and thirty two battlemechs. Also first call on yards to make jumpships and a preferential rate.
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What assets do we have? The system is well developed with extraction operations all throughout the system. The system population is one and a half billion and is fairly well educated.

Access to star league tech was never lost though due to lack of some production lines some tech used is somewhat more simple or has only been recently reintroduced.

 The system initially required a large portion of the population to be used to farm due to being cut off from agromech supply but these machines and other such necessary lines were built as a priority. As such the system has a great degree of automation in menial labor and dangerous tasks such as mining leading to production output rising per person required in these fields.

It was not thought that it would take so long for someone to find them and as such production of materials continued. As such there is a large number of mechs and aerospace fighters in storage as there was no fighting and constant production there are over a thousand battlemechs and several thousand aerospace fighters. As a side note the real life group I'm with is one of those for whom canon unit numbers throughout a large part of the galaxy are to small so forces are bulked up. As such this is significant but still bellow a great power by a decent amount.

The crown jewel of our assets is that we have machine tools and haven't lost our knowledge we can set up new production lines for anything we can design even if at great expense.

Space assets are a SDS set up before contact was lost. This has been slowly expanded to keep up shipbuilding knowledge. Yards can either build or maintain a ship. One 1.5 million ton yard. Three 1.2 million ton yards. Eight 600 thousand ton, fifteen 300 thousand ton yards. These are the original there are also thirty two hundred fifty thousand ton yards produced after loss of contact for in system ships and then latter the buckler.

To produce multiple large warships is difficult even for a developed system. The only reason we can have several is that the parts for these ships were partially completed here under the star league and finished in the ensuing two hundred years waiting for their germanium to make the drive cores.
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Why my warship design doctrine is how it is. In universe it begins with the clan invasion a standard ship design would have been fine when there were no warships.

 However against a force of with Mckenna's and even heavier and more powerful ships we could only build ships at best sixty percent of the mass.

 The only ways proposed to even hope to compete were for capital firepower to be concentrated all in the nose to equal the broadside of our enemy.

The other was for the warships to carry a large amount of fighters which would be used to attempt to damage engines on the larger ships either forcing them out of formation or forcing the enemy fleet into an unfavorable position when they covered their crippled ally.

Current doctrine planned involves using echo until the enemy closes to about forty hexes then going to max thrust and passing broadside quickly with broadside specialist ships.
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How the necessary germanium and secondary materials were acquired. Clan invasion again in this instance direct contact with inner sphere and selling of large amount of mechs ,aerospace fighters, and fusion engines. Also building jumpships. We actually have more yard capacity than we can use for building and as such in the post first clan invasion contract build jumpships.
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Relations with other powers. Periphery states as long as they would not violate the basic U.S. bill of rights their all right to us. Periphery states get better rates for things that would improve civilian livelihoods and infrastructure. They also receive a discount greater than inner sphere if they can collect shipment themselves as well as a slight shipping discount.

Inner Sphere Minus House Kurita. Decent there is some friction were also salty a bit about the whole succession wars but mainly live and let live. They don't get anywhere near as good deals a periphery though.

House Kurita. Absolutely abysmal we hate them with a passion well take a job against them for a much lower rate than against any other power. This bad blood is due to multiple incidents all kuritan or kuritan inspired tech has been stolen from them for reverse engineering following this bad blood.

Clans. Disliked though not quite as badly as kurita. Our system sees it self still as star league but going back to what star league actually professed to do and be for. The  clans are far from this and not what we want for humanity.
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Goals. While rebuilding the star league would be nice its impractical in the near to medium term. Medium term goal to unite and develop the march worlds into something approaching a great power without the intent to invade the inner sphere.

Long term goal do the same to rest of periphery. Get great houses to stop fighting(considered  unlikely). Begin human galactic exploration and scientific advancement again. Basically  Eradani light horse with realistic goals and support.
« Last Edit: 11 March 2024, 17:07:52 by Primus203 »

Lagrange

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #45 on: 12 March 2024, 08:51:24 »
I still disagree, you can close with an enemy ship, shift into broadside and wail on them just as easily, while being able to turn and roll or simply pass through with your velocity presenting fresh armor and weapons, effectively increasing your protection by 150% versus a three location forward aspect.
You have to decide here if you are optimizing for large scale combat or small scale combat.   In small scale combat, there will typically be time to roll sides and bring fresh armor to bear.  In large scale combat, an unaccommodating enemy will focus fire to the point of destruction every round (aka minute) eliminating the possibility of rolling sides.  Note also that a nose fighter can and should heavily armor the nose by design, mitigating much of the value of rolling sides at the design phase

As an example, the Kuan Yin II does 595 damage from capital weapons in the nose arc and is destroyed after about 1200 damage to the nose eliminating all nose armor, fore sides armor, and SI.  The Perdition at a similar tonnage does 324 damage from capital weapons in the broadside arcs and is destroyed after about 1300 damage to the side arc including fore-side armor, aft-side armor, and SI.   Even if you reposition the Perdition's nose capital weapons to side arcs (broadside capital weapon damage ~380) it's not clearly the winner in a high intensity engagement of say 20 v 20 where the typical outcome of each round is the count of ships eliminated.

Edit: miscounted Perdition's damage numbers, fixed.

Primus203

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #46 on: 12 March 2024, 13:16:31 »
I'm glad for the constant replies I'm probably in the last stages of fleet redesign I have just a few more questions. First I was told how vulnerable the kraken-t was to ecm are non teleoperated missiles less effected or immune?

Second do warships and jumpships have a different maintenance cost percentage rate and if so what is it? These things can be annoying to find and for some reason are spread through different rule books we really need a consolidated rule book.

I had a conversation stating that ams only protects the unit its mounted on I'm guessing its different in space? If so does that mean I can lessen or omit  it from units in the center to boost capital firepower due to lower targeting tonnage penalties.

If I put my more vulnerable units in the center of the formation my armored supply and transport ships and they have ships between them and the enemy does this make them more difficult to target and hit?

In your opinion what are the best weapons minus nukes that fighters can mount to cripple capital ships especially targeting and engines.

My main air superiority fighter uses er medium lasers is this a bad choice in space? Its main variant uses an lb-x 5 this is bad in space sugesstions for a replacement weapon thirteen tons to work with.

Lagrange

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #47 on: 12 March 2024, 13:56:22 »
I'm glad for the constant replies I'm probably in the last stages of fleet redesign I have just a few more questions. First I was told how vulnerable the kraken-t was to ecm are non teleoperated missiles less effected or immune?
They are unaffected, but do note the vulnerability of capital missiles to AMS.
Second do warships and jumpships have a different maintenance cost percentage rate and if so what is it? These things can be annoying to find and for some reason are spread through different rule books we really need a consolidated rule book.
If i recall correctly, warships are .1%/month.  Jumpships are lower, I believe .01%/month.  This is specified in CO but I don't have that handy.
I had a conversation stating that ams only protects the unit its mounted on I'm guessing its different in space? If so does that mean I can lessen or omit  it from units in the center to boost capital firepower due to lower targeting tonnage penalties.
Yes, it's different in space if you are using the advanced rules in SO.

If I put my more vulnerable units in the center of the formation my armored supply and transport ships and they have ships between them and the enemy does this make them more difficult to target and hit?
There are sensor shadow rules in SO which can make this happen as long as the supply/transport ships are not appreciably larger.   However, smallcraft/ASF will still be able to pass through any formation and fire on the transports, plausibly in ways which eliminate the value of sensor shadows.
In your opinion what are the best weapons minus nukes that fighters can mount to cripple capital ships especially targeting and engines.
An internal bomb bay able to hold 6 antiship missiles is scary when deployed in large formations.  All weapon slots should also be maxed out with small lasers.  If you want a repeat use weapon, I'd suggest an AC/20 or similar for damage, particularly with high speed engagements offering up to an x4 multiplier, making that effectively an AC/80.  If you want to target criticals, there's a called shots rule in SO which makes smallcraft able to leverage pulse style weapons.
My main air superiority fighter uses er medium lasers is this a bad choice in space? Its main variant uses an lb-x 5 this is bad in space sugesstions for a replacement weapon thirteen tons to work with.
Medium lasers are good although they don't have damage multiplied in a high speed engagement. 

Primus203

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #48 on: 12 March 2024, 15:14:07 »
So I didn't know about the velocity damage rules if I understand this right then that means my gauss lancer second post on this page which has two improved gauss rifles capital damage 2.2 rounding down to two. At speed though this would increase to 8.8 capital damage which rounds to nine giving me if both shots hit eighteen cap damage per pass.

Or if I remove one of the gauss rifles and a er medium laser and heatsink freeing up twenty seven tons I can mount three anti ship missiles an additional thirteen tons of armor double what I had and five more tons of fuel fifty percent more.

That is if I'm understanding things right as a hundred ton fighter the lancer should get twenty bomb slots so that means I can carry three ASM which mass two tons each meaning that with six free tons on my hundred ton fighter I can carry these ASM'S am I correct?
Code: [Select]
Lancer Gauss Lancer ASM

Mass: 100 tons
Frame: Lancer
Power Plant: 200 Light Lancer
Armor: Ferro-Aluminum
Armament:
     2 ER Medium Laser
     1 Improved Heavy Gauss Rifle
     1 Laser AMS
Manufacturer: Custom Aerospace
     Primary Factory: Custom Areospace
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3065
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-E
Cost: 17,367,000 C-bills

Type: Lancer
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Tonnage: 100
Battle Value: 2,792

Equipment                                          Mass
Engine                        300 XL                9.5
Safe Thrust: 5
Max Thrust: 8
Structural Integrity:         10                       
Heat Sinks:                   14 [28]                 4
Fuel:                         1200                 15.0
Cockpit                                               3
Armor Factor (Ferro)          465                    26

                           Armor   
                           Value   
     Nose                   140   
     Wings                116/116 
     Aft                     93   


Weapons
and Ammo                               Location   Tonnage  Heat   SRV  MRV  LRV  ERV
ER Medium Laser                          RWG       1.0      5      5    5    0    0 
Improved Heavy Gauss Rifle               NOS       20.0     2     22   22   22    0 
Laser AMS                                NOS       1.5      7      3    0    0    0 
Improved Heavy Gauss Rifle Ammo (20)     FSLG      5.0      -      -    -    -    - 
Angel ECM Suite                          FSLG      2.0      -      -    -    -    - 
Targeting Computer                       FSLG      6.0      -      -    -    -    - 
ER Medium Laser                          LWG       1.0      5      5    5    0    0 

AlphaMirage

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #49 on: 12 March 2024, 15:40:13 »
That is only the case for a 'Fast' High Speed Closing Engagement, more likely its going to be a 3 (2.2*1.5) as a 'Slow' High Speed Closing Engagement is actually fairly easy to achieve with velocity rules (it basically takes only 10 minutes of 'wind up' for most ships).

Also 20 v 20 Warship fights that would be crazy Lagrange. I am figured more of an 8 v 8 scenario as that seems more likely for a 'decisive battle' that an interstellar empire might be willing to engage in. 20 v 20 is Operation: Chieftain taking on the Sol SDS level not something that you would plan for when deciding your build.

Primus203

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #50 on: 12 March 2024, 15:55:03 »
Are my anti ship missile carry calculations correct though? Also I just found the internal bomb bay quirk if I'm understanding it right it would allow me to carry an extra asm for each eight tons I allot two for the missile six for the bomb slots. So with three asm on externals removing both gauss rifles leaves me with fifty four tons minus the six tons for the external asm.

This brings me to forty eight tons meaning that I can carry six internally for a total of nine if I go all in. On the flip side if I remove only one improved gauss rifle and don't go for the extra fuel, armor, and gauss ammo the three ASM design had I have twenty five tons to play with meaning three more ASM plus the three external and one ton to spend on ammo, fuel, or armor.

Also on the off note in many ways dropship seem to be a better way to launch fighters than carriers. For example the center of my fleet the carrier bellow can only launch forty fighters a turn.
Code: [Select]
Old Ironsides Light Carrier Semi Post Star League
Mass: 1,500,000 tons
Use: Light Carrier
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Introduced: 3065
Mass: 1,500,000
Battle Value: 195,908
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-F
Cost: 43,970,810,000 C-bills

Fuel: 26,500 tons (66,250)
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Sail Integrity: 7
KF Drive Integrity: 30
Heat Sinks: 5200 (10400)
Structural Integrity: 120

Armor
    Nose: 804
    Fore Sides: 660/660
    Aft Sides: 588/588
    Aft: 372

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Reinforced Repair Facility (100)1 Door   
    Bay 2:  Cargo (46065.0 tons)    1 Door   
    Bay 3:  Fighter (125)           5 Doors   
    Bay 4:  Fighter (125)           5 Doors   
    Bay 5:  Fighter (125)           5 Doors   
    Bay 6:  Fighter (125)           5 Doors   
    Bay 7:  Small Craft (10)        1 Door   

Ammunition:
    1,600 rounds of Piranha ammunition (16,000 tons)

Dropship Capacity: 10
Grav Decks: 6 (250 m, 250 m, 250 m, 250 m, 250 m, 250 m)
Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 150
Crew:  78 officers, 342 enlisted/non-rated, 140 gunners, 1050 bay personnel, 150 marines, 100 BA marines

Notes: Equipped with
    lithium-fusion battery system
    1 Mobile Hyperpulse Generators (Mobile HPG)
    1 Naval Comm-Scanner Suite (Large)
    1 Naval C3
3,600 tons of lamellor ferro-carbide armor.

Weapons:                                      Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                                Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (4,556 Heat)
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)                       900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)                       900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)                       900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)                       900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)                       900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
FRS/FLS (772 Heat)
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Missile Launcher (Piranha)   9   3(30)   3(30)   3(30)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Missile
    Piranha Ammo (100 shots)
1 Sub-Capital Missile Launcher (Piranha)   9   3(30)   3(30)   3(30)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Missile
    Piranha Ammo (100 shots)
1 Sub-Capital Missile Launcher (Piranha)   9   3(30)   3(30)   3(30)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Missile
    Piranha Ammo (100 shots)
1 Sub-Capital Missile Launcher (Piranha)   9   3(30)   3(30)   3(30)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Missile
    Piranha Ammo (100 shots)
4 Naval Laser 55                          340  22(220) 22(220) 22(220) 22(220)  Capital Laser
4 Naval Laser 55                          340  22(220) 22(220) 22(220) 22(220)  Capital Laser
RBS/LBS (736 Heat)
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
4 Naval Laser 55                          340  22(220) 22(220) 22(220) 22(220)  Capital Laser
4 Naval Laser 55                          340  22(220) 22(220) 22(220) 22(220)  Capital Laser
ARS/ALS (772 Heat)
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Missile Launcher (Piranha)   9   3(30)   3(30)   3(30)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Missile
    Piranha Ammo (100 shots)
1 Sub-Capital Missile Launcher (Piranha)   9   3(30)   3(30)   3(30)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Missile
    Piranha Ammo (100 shots)
1 Sub-Capital Missile Launcher (Piranha)   9   3(30)   3(30)   3(30)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Missile
    Piranha Ammo (100 shots)
1 Sub-Capital Missile Launcher (Piranha)   9   3(30)   3(30)   3(30)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Missile
    Piranha Ammo (100 shots)
4 Naval Laser 55                          340  22(220) 22(220) 22(220) 22(220)  Capital Laser
4 Naval Laser 55                          340  22(220) 22(220) 22(220) 22(220)  Capital Laser
Aft (1,076 Heat)
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
4 Naval Laser 55                          340  22(220) 22(220) 22(220) 22(220)  Capital Laser
4 Naval Laser 55                          340  22(220) 22(220) 22(220) 22(220)  Capital Laser
4 Naval Laser 55                          340  22(220) 22(220) 22(220) 22(220)  Capital Laser
But its ten dropships micro carrier dropships each with seven doors can between them launch one hundred fourty fighters per turn.
Code: [Select]
Old Iron Micro Carrier Dropship
Type: Military Spheriod
Mass: 50,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Introduced: 3065
Mass: 50,000
Battle Value: 17,864
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-E
Cost: 3,061,716,000 C-bills

Fuel: 6,000 tons (60,000)
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Heat Sinks: 500 (1000)
Structural Integrity: 125

Armor
    Nose: 1465
    Sides: 1241/1241
    Aft: 1017

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Fighter (70)            7 Doors   
    Bay 2:  Cargo (5500.0 tons)     1 Door   

Ammunition:
None

Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 0
Crew:  8 officers, 6 enlisted/non-rated, 38 gunners, 140 bay personnel

Notes: Mounts 450 tons of heavy ferro-aluminum armor.

Weapons:                    Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)              Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV     ERV   Class       
Nose (152 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
RS/LS Fwd (152 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
RS/LS Aft (152 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
Aft (152 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
This means that by augmenting my fighter launch this way in three turns I can launch 560 ASM armed bomber and 500 air superiority fighters. Note I'm including the rest of the fleet for the air superiority numbers. Note this still would leave around 320 ASM bombers and 300 fighters waiting to launch.

Also of note this is after I heavily reduced numbers on most ships across the board with advice from this forum. 700 of these fighters are last minute additions by changing the dropship to this new micro carrier and 500 are from the fleet carrier. The rest are due to everything carrying fighters buckler 16 aero 8 doors, arrowhead 24 aero 12 doors, ballista 100 aero 18 doors. This is not counting fleet supply ships and transports several of which carry some for protection.

As a side note do search and rescue small craft require any special gear? How much space do recovered people take up if anyone knows?

Also does anyone here use space mines and if so are they any good?
« Last Edit: 12 March 2024, 17:52:48 by Primus203 »

Lagrange

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #51 on: 12 March 2024, 19:17:10 »
So I didn't know about the velocity damage rules if I understand this right then that means my gauss lancer second post on this page which has two improved gauss rifles capital damage 2.2 rounding down to two. At speed though this would increase to 8.8 capital damage which rounds to nine giving me if both shots hit eighteen cap damage per pass.
Right.

Or if I remove one of the gauss rifles and a er medium laser and heatsink freeing up twenty seven tons I can mount three anti ship missiles an additional thirteen tons of armor double what I had and five more tons of fuel fifty percent more.

That is if I'm understanding things right as a hundred ton fighter the lancer should get twenty bomb slots so that means I can carry three ASM which mass two tons each meaning that with six free tons on my hundred ton fighter I can carry these ASM'S am I correct?
I believe you must allocate 1 ton of internal cargo per bomb slot, so 3 ASMs internally require 18 tons of cargo.   Personally, I'd suggest going for 6 ASMs (= maximum internal launch in a round) on an omni fighter.  Then, you can have a space-superiority fighter that doubles as a capital ship killer.

W.r.t. your dropship, I'd suggest going up to 100k tons if you really want to max the number of fighters carried.  Dropships are also good carriers because you can afford to spend much more mass on engines.  Personally, I like my carriers to be much faster so they aren't as easily subject to swarming.

That is only the case for a 'Fast' High Speed Closing Engagement, more likely its going to be a 3 (2.2*1.5) as a 'Slow' High Speed Closing Engagement is actually fairly easy to achieve with velocity rules (it basically takes only 10 minutes of 'wind up' for most ships).
Right.  'Fast' high speed engagements are most usable against relatively fixed defenses.  Use against warships implies they are used in a particularly defensive or lazy way.

Also 20 v 20 Warship fights that would be crazy Lagrange. I am figured more of an 8 v 8 scenario as that seems more likely for a 'decisive battle' that an interstellar empire might be willing to engage in. 20 v 20 is Operation: Chieftain taking on the Sol SDS level not something that you would plan for when deciding your build.
Situations vary here, but since space allows near-perfect scaling of forces there are real returns to massing force.  The only AE weapon in space combat is a screen launcher, so it would be amusing to see ships massing them at large scale.

Daryk

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #52 on: 12 March 2024, 20:04:25 »
Using JumpShips as transports will always be cheaper than adding docking collars to WarShips.

AlphaMirage

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #53 on: 12 March 2024, 20:05:31 »
As a side note do search and rescue small craft require any special gear? How much space do recovered people take up if anyone knows?

Also does anyone here use space mines and if so are they any good?

They don't 'require' additional gear, I however typically equip my small craft with an active probe and paramedic equipment which does aid the roll to recover and heal them. Pilots take up one person slot, normally I have a jump infantry bay in my boarding/SAR craft so it can carry 21 people easy for long enough to make it to a more spacious vessel. SAR will be either be difficult or easy if you are deploying hundreds of fighters, particularly the amount you are talking about, just one of those massed task forces might overmatch even the Star League in its prime and they had thousands of Warships.

Space Mines are 'weird' the roll to avoid them is to easy, in my opinion it should be 2 higher, but that's only because I want to think of space mines as active seekers. They are basically the second area of effect weapon beside the screen launcher. That said being able to sling them into oncoming (or massed) enemies at speed is funny and it might cause some damage so its not like its necessarily wasted tonnage.

Daryk

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #54 on: 12 March 2024, 20:06:53 »
Why not use a Foot Infantry bay for 30 racks instead? ???

AlphaMirage

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #55 on: 12 March 2024, 20:11:25 »
Why not use a Foot Infantry bay for 30 racks instead? ???

Space Suits are bulky and my Espatiers wear Marine Combat Armor. Its my fluff Daryk, it makes sense in my mind.

Daryk

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #56 on: 12 March 2024, 20:18:34 »
That makes sense... more power to you! :)

Primus203

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #57 on: 13 March 2024, 13:22:58 »
Alright coming near the final fleet revisions. One of the main ones is fighters. Max number of fighters carried is what can be launched by the ship in five turns with the doors allotted to it.

This means the carrier is loosing three hundred fighters but regaining 280 from getting four more microcarrier dropships. I've also finalized the bomber.

Using an internal bomb bay for less velocity penalties the lancer has forty eight tons set aside for 6 ASM it then rips out every gun the targeting computer and every heatsink not in the reactor.

By doing this the armor is doubled to twenty six tons of ferro aluminum so to hopefully guarantee the bomber will get through. They will rely on the air superiority fighters for fighter protection.
Code: [Select]
Space Lancer Bomber

Mass: 100 tons
Frame: Lancer
Power Plant: 200 Light Lancer
Armor: Ferro-Aluminum
Armament:
     1 Laser AMS
Manufacturer: Custom Aerospace
     Primary Factory: Custom Areospace
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3065
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-E
Cost: 15,799,500 C-bills

Type: Space Lancer
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Tonnage: 100
Battle Value: 1,593

Equipment                                          Mass
Engine                        300 XL                9.5
Safe Thrust: 5
Max Thrust: 8
Structural Integrity:         10                       
Heat Sinks:                   10 [20]                 0
Fuel:                         800                  10.0
Cockpit                                               3
Armor Factor (Ferro)          465                    26

                           Armor   
                           Value   
     Nose                   140   
     Wings                116/116 
     Aft                     93   


Weapons
and Ammo              Location   Tonnage  Heat   SRV  MRV  LRV  ERV
Laser AMS               NOS       1.5      7      3    0    0    0 
Angel ECM Suite         FSLG      2.0      -      -    -    -    - 
I use meklab as a design aid but I have no idea how to add design quirks. Its supposed to have the stable perk and the quick reload perk as long as the bomb loadout isn't changed.

Also how long does it take to reload a fighter this will help me decide on how much reloads and fuel to keep on a carrier. I currently carry enough reloads for five sorties. In the space lancers case this is currently thirty tons per sortie ten tons of fuel, twelve tons for six ASM, and eight tons of replacement parts and armor for battle damage.

AlphaMirage

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #58 on: 13 March 2024, 13:51:04 »
This is from my TacOps. Minimum 10 turns/minutes, roll 1d6 adding 1 for each ton/shot beyond the first, on 1-7 that reload is a success, 8-11 it fails, 12+ it explodes. If you try to reload say 6 missiles/10 minutes you are not going to damage your carriers but are very likely to fail in that reloading attempt. During this attempt you have plenty of time to top off fuel.

MegaMek doesn't do quirks, they have no effect on construction rules.

Lagrange

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #59 on: 13 March 2024, 15:11:07 »
I believe 6ASM require only 36 tons, not 48.

Primus203

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  • Posts: 78
Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #60 on: 13 March 2024, 17:00:36 »
Thank you for all your help guys finished fleet redesign and tactical doctrine. New doctrine build up fighter swarm while firing at max range using echo. Fighter swarm should be poised to hit the enemy one turn before the fleet could come into broadside.

 At this time fleet goes to max thrust 5 and broadside specialist ships target enemies seeking to cripple them based on threat priority. The goal is to minimize the time in broadside action.

If possible main targets of fighters and other craft are fcs and engines. Without FC3 the ship has little chance of hitting us and can be mostly ignored. Without engines either the ship falls out of formation and is vulnerable, or the enemy gives up the initiate to defend it.

After the broadside exchange max thrust will be sustained for several turns building distance and buying time to rearm fighters. If any fighters were not able to launch before this they may be used to launch a spoiling attack and cripple more ships.

If we are not forced to retreat then after all enemy ships have been immobilized or fled the boarding ship will be brought just outside weapons range of the more valuable ships and launch boarders.
Code: [Select]
Marquee Boarding Mothership
Mass: 300,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Advanced)
Introduced: 3065
Mass: 300,000
Battle Value: 21,990
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-F
Cost: 8,132,804,000 C-bills

Fuel: 2,500 tons (6,250)
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Sail Integrity: 4
KF Drive Integrity: 8
Heat Sinks: 1250 (2500)
Structural Integrity: 90

Armor
    Nose: 127
    Fore Sides: 107/107
    Aft Sides: 95/95
    Aft: 63

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Small Craft (120)       10 Doors 
    Bay 2:  Cargo (41971.0 tons)    1 Door   

Ammunition:
None

Dropship Capacity: 4
Grav Decks: 0
Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 0
Crew:  26 officers, 79 enlisted/non-rated, 80 gunners, 600 bay personnel, 20 BA marines

Notes: Mounts 540 tons of lamellor ferro-carbide armor.

Weapons:                    Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)              Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (180 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
FRS/FLS (228 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
RBS/LBS (228 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
ARS/ALS (228 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
Aft (228 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
This ship will launch 120 of these.
Code: [Select]
Pirate Shuttle
Type: Military Spheriod
Mass: 200 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Introduced: 3060
Mass: 200
Battle Value: 1,226
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-E-D
Cost: 24,239,790 C-bills

Fuel: 14.5 tons (1,160)
Safe Thrust: 6
Maximum Thrust: 9
Heat Sinks: 18 (36)
Structural Integrity: 15

Armor
    Nose: 107
    Sides: 91/91
    Aft: 75

Cargo
    Bay 1:  BattleArmor (IS) (5)    3 Doors   
    Bay 2:  Cargo (2.5 tons)        1 Door   

Ammunition:
None

Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 0
Crew:  1 officer, 2 enlisted/non-rated, 30 bay personnel

Notes: Mounts 17 tons of ferro-aluminum armor.

Weapons
and Ammo              Location   Tonnage  Heat   SRV  MRV  LRV  ERV
Laser AMS              Aft R      1.5      7      3    0    0    0 
Laser AMS               Nose      1.5      7      3    0    0    0 
Laser AMS              Fwd R      1.5      7      3    0    0    0 
Laser AMS              Fwd L      1.5      7      3    0    0    0 
Laser AMS              Aft L      1.5      7      3    0    0    0 
ECM Suite               Hull      1.5      -      -    -    -    - 
Which have 5 units of these. which as previously mentioned the weapons mounts mount four wakazashi o-12.
Code: [Select]
Marine Raider BattleArmor
Type: Marine Raider
Manufacturer: Unknown
    Primary Factory: Unknown

Tech Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Chassis Type:  Biped
Weight Class: Medium
Maximum Weight: 1,000 kg
Battle Value: 224
Swarm/Leg Attack/Mechanized/AP: Yes/Yes/Yes/Yes
</p>

Equipment                                     Slots      Mass
Chassis:                                               175 kg
Motive System:                                               
     Ground MP:          3                              80 kg
     Jump MP:            0                               0 kg
Manipulators:                                                 
    Left Arm:            Heavy Vibro-Claw               60 kg
    Right Arm:           Heavy Vibro-Claw               60 kg
Armor:                   Standard (Basic)       0      350 kg
    Armor Value:         8 (Trooper)                         

                                         Slots           
Weapons and Equipment         Location (Capacity)   Mass 
Space Operations Adaptation     Body       1       100 kg
Cutting Torch                 Right Arm     1        5 kg 
Demolition Charge               None       0        0 kg 
Power Pack                      Body       1       25 kg 
Searchlight                   Left Arm     1        5 kg 
Extended Life Support           Body       1       25 kg 
Improved Sensors                Body       1       65 kg 
Anti Personnel Weapon Mount   Right Arm     1        5 kg 
Anti Personnel Weapon Mount   Left Arm     1        5 kg 
Anti Personnel Weapon Mount   Left Arm     1        5 kg 
Anti Personnel Weapon Mount   Right Arm     1        5 kg 
For a total of six hundred units of battlearmor. With the remaining storage on the ship being enough to store more than half a years supply for the onboard troops plus spare parts and food mix in the dropships.

Retry

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1450
Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #61 on: 13 March 2024, 18:19:05 »
This is from my TacOps. Minimum 10 turns/minutes, roll 1d6 adding 1 for each ton/shot beyond the first, on 1-7 that reload is a success, 8-11 it fails, 12+ it explodes. If you try to reload say 6 missiles/10 minutes you are not going to damage your carriers but are very likely to fail in that reloading attempt. During this attempt you have plenty of time to top off fuel.

MegaMek doesn't do quirks, they have no effect on construction rules.
Actually that's no longer true as of the latest versions.  MegaMek's had quirks as a toggleable option for at least a year now, and my current copy of MegaMekLab has quirks under its own tag.  I used it to quirk up the Torch ASF that I just posted.

Primus203

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 78
Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #62 on: 17 March 2024, 18:02:40 »
Hey guys been a few days fleet rediesign worked out well got some new questions and dont want to clutter things with a new thread.

First how much do yardships improve repair times?

Does one unit of repair bay size equate to one ton of ship capability. For example a size 1.5 million bay let me repair a 1.5 million ton warship.

If my bay can fit a 1.5 million ton ship can it fit multiple smaller ones as long as they are together under 1.5 million tons.

Are factory ships a thing? I managed to run out of munitions. Had over thirty reloads but I ran dry.

AlphaMirage

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3648
Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #63 on: 17 March 2024, 18:27:37 »
I believe repair bays are part of the tools needed to conduct repairs. There was a whole section in StratOps that I believe moved to the new Campaign Ops book on the details.

Size = Capacity, I don't think it matters on unit numbers based on my read.

Only in the Industrial Tycoons Guide, otherwise it's just fluff.

Retry

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1450
Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #64 on: 17 March 2024, 19:34:16 »
IIRC You can only put 1 Warship/Jumpship in a bay regardless of capacity, or alternatively you can fit up to 2 Dropships.