The future of "A Time of War"

[Daryk]

I prefer hard copy too, but not $200 more...

[monbvol]

Plus being able to Ctrl+F to find a rule instead of having to thumb through is kind of nice.

[Daryk]

That's handy too, but less so at the table top...

[monbvol]

Depends on the space you have available.

My group tends to have enough that we can have three or four laptops plugged in at the same time making researching stuff pretty easy.

[Daryk]

You're lucky, then!   :thumbsup:

[idea weenie]

A lot of people (Myself Included) Don't like running a game out of a PDF.
One of the issues with AToW right now.

Greyscale, and go to a local print shop?  Assuming fifteen cents per page for greyscale, printing all of that 410 page book would be just under $62 (US).  You might want to make a list of just the pages you want printed, so you can save money.  Or print at home hopefully via double-sided, then buying a bunch of plastic document sleeves so the whole thing that can be put in a giant notebook.  From there find one of those super index programs that grabs every occurrence of every word in the PDF document (within a certain range), and turns that into an index.

I don't see a Print-on-Demand option for the Drivethrurpg page, so printing locally is the only option.

[victor_shaw]

Greyscale, and go to a local print shop?  Assuming fifteen cents per page for greyscale, printing all of that 410 page book would be just under $62 (US).  You might want to make a list of just the pages you want printed, so you can save money.  Or print at home hopefully via double-sided, then buying a bunch of plastic document sleeves so the whole thing that can be put in a giant notebook.  From there find one of those super index programs that grabs every occurrence of every word in the PDF document (within a certain range), and turns that into an index.

I don't see a Print-on-Demand option for the Drivethrurpg page, so printing locally is the only option.

I tried this before with my Pendragon 5.2 book.
The results where twice as thick and bulky as the print copy and harder to navigate, and that was only 239 pages (Including front and back cover).
Finally broke-down and bought the print copy.
If I am going to pay that much ($60+) for a book, I want it to at least be a well-bound paperback.

[Daryk]

With any luck, TPTB will give us a re-print, and you can get a well bound book for less than $60!  :thumbsup:

[Col Toda]

Yes a print on demand option for that and ALL the spotlight and Dark Age books sounds like a winning Idea .

[victor_shaw]

With any luck, TPTB will give us a re-print, and you can get a well bound book for less than $60!  :thumbsup:

The issues with this is, I (and most of the players I know) don't want a reprint of the current game as IMHO it is not a working game due to the many issues with the character creation system.
I don't think a reprint would even sell well if the game was left in it's current state. Which I am sure CGL is aware of.
And since it seems that CGL is going to push MW:D as it's new RPG, the odds of this happening are "slim to none and slim left town"
That said, it is highly unlikely that AToW will ever get republished, and if it does it will still be the mess it is right now.

[Sartris]

The aftermarket prices on AToW are indeed ridiculous and have been for years

The only reason I have a DTF is because my local store had a couple copies that had been on the shelf for around six years when I moved back to town

[Daryk]

As a core for rules that can scale up to TW and beyond, AToW is superior in my opinion, even though it could use some work.

[monbvol]

Plus using point buy or the pre-generated characters instead of module does sole like 90% of the issues of character creation.

There are a few other niggling issues but overall the system itself is fine.  But I agree the current state of character creation being focused on module does create a very significant barrier.

[Daryk]

It may be a barrier, but it's one worth overcoming.  The module system creates characters that are organic to the universe.  They make SENSE on a deep level based on the background.  Whoever came up with that system deserves a raise for that.

[monbvol]

It may be a barrier, but it's one worth overcoming.  The module system creates characters that are organic to the universe.  They make SENSE on a deep level based on the background.  Whoever came up with that system deserves a raise for that.

*nod*

I think we've been on the same page in that regard for a few years now.

[victor_shaw]

As a core for rules that can scale up to TW and beyond, AToW is superior in my opinion, even though it could use some work.

The thing is, the game could have the greatest RPG system ever designed (my personal opinion it's not), and it could have the best integration of any system (Matter of opinion).
The problem is, that even with all of this if the game turns off players right at the start (character creation) it is unlikely that players will ever get far enough into the game for any of this to matter.
I don't disagree that AToW has a good core system and maybe even the best of the MW RPGs(Matter of opinion), but when you try to run a group through character creation and it turns them off the game from the get go, the system has failed.

Plus using point buy or the pre-generated characters instead of module does sole like 90% of the issues of character creation.

There are a few other niggling issues but overall the system itself is fine.  But I agree the current state of character creation being focused on module does create a very significant barrier.

And there in lies the issue.
The game dedicates a large portion of the pg count to this module creation system that at its core is hard to follow and way more drawn out then it needs to be, thus driving away new players from an otherwise good RPG system.

As an example: Twilight 2013 (Twilight 2000 3rd edition) is a far superiors system to Twilight 2000 2.2, yet it failed not because of the game system but because of the intro story of how the global war started and ended. If a game can fail do to just a story then how is a game like AToW going to bring in fans with a flawed game mechanic as important as character creation.

Overall, AToW doesn't need a new page by page reprint, it needs a 4.5 overhale which I doubt CGL is willing to do.

[Daryk]

My sig block is a start on a 4.5 version, but has a LONG way to go...

[Talen5000]

There are a few other niggling issues but overall the system itself is fine.  But I agree the current state of character creation being focused on module does create a very significant barrier.

The system itself is fine...but it is unintuitive.
The rulebook is not. There is too much critical information left out and to much dross left in. An RPG does not need to be a BattleTroops replacement nor does it need alternate rules for AGoAC. The character creation process is overly complex and the life path system ill suited towards a game of so many factions and backgrounds.
As I've said before, you could rip out a third of the book without touching the RPG rules and have pointed out that much of what is in the companion volume is stuff that should be in the core RPG book.

The rulebook is not worth reprinting because, quite bluntly, it is unfit for purpose and it is unfit for purpose because ATOW was not designed as an RPG system. Its trying to fit three or four different games into the book and it doesn't work.

I don't think Destiny is the answer either.

[Dahmin_Toran]

I think Destiny is a better answer that overhauling ATOW. The system can be barebones, but you can layer on top of it some parts from ATOW if you want more granularity.

[Daryk]

Can you give me an example?  Because I'm just not seeing it...  ???

[victor_shaw]

I think Destiny is a better answer that overhauling ATOW. The system can be barebones, but you can layer on top of it some parts from ATOW if you want more granularity.

Destiny is horrible.
Its AToW with most of the best parts ripped out.
Most of the Rule sections of the book devote to much page space to the broken Mech-combat system even the character creation section. (How do you not have a out of range for Mechs?)
The personal combat Movement/Range system is a pale and (somehow worse) rip-off of the FFG system.
Character creation is a paint by numbers, one-from-column-A: one-from-column-B, Madlib.
The Cues themselves are a crutch for Bad GMs and players.
Its more a narrative campfire-tale then an RPG, with more in common with LARPS then Pen and paper.
It has more in common with Mechwarrior 1st Edition (the worst of then till now) showing a major slide backwards from all of the progress then had made till now.
All-all it's a terrible game.

[Dahmin_Toran]

Can you give me an example?  Because I'm just not seeing it...  ???

I was thinking up a few changes to incorporate in Life Modules from ATOW:

- Ignore the Characteristics

- Use the Traits as a list of potential Traits to choose from in CharGen

- All the Skills with Positive points put them on the sheet as Level 0 Skills (can use with Hard skill checks, instead of Unskilled rules)

- Use Skills/Traits from ATOW

- Limit Positive/Negative Traits to 3 for Green, 4 for Regular, 5 for Veteran, 6 for Elite

- I would probably add a Trait and Skill from the Origins (i.e. Federated Suns) as well for additional flavor.

A few other things from ATOW I would like to incorporate:

- Include Extra Damage which would be a extra point of damage per 4 points of MOS (round down) like in ATOW

- Include Burst Fire which would be a extra point of damage per MOS (limit to ROF - use ATOW stats)

- Use the ATOW Armor (MBEX) rules

Finally here are some things I would do to incorporate Destiny with BT/AS:

- Use Destiny dice rules

- Use Gunnery/Piloting mods as negatives

- Instead of number of hexes moved, use the rules in Destiny to hit.

Also for Cues, I would limit them to six and use them as a +1 bonus to use per game if you can invoke them.

[Daryk]

Interesting list, but I don't see how that would be better than a tune up of AToW.

[Talen5000]

I think Destiny is a better answer that overhauling ATOW. The system can be barebones, but you can layer on top of it some parts from ATOW if you want more granularity.

Not a fan of Destiny. I have no objection to a rules lite system - personally, I like rules lite, but with detailed characters but that is me - but if rules-lite was the aim, then a rejigged version of MW2 would, IMO, have been better

Alternatively - pick one of the Shadowrun rulesets. Myabe even tweak it into something more generic  that could be used with all CGL games.
And no - the Destiny engine isn't really viable IMO

[Dahmin_Toran]

To me I like the rules-lite, narrative focus, but able to add layers of granularity for more detail. I am not sure if the latter statement was an objective of Mechwarrior Destiny, but I am glad they left that door open. I was pleasantly surprised how seamlessly you can incorporate elements of ATOW into the system. I am also glad that the book was rewritten to talk about more traditional gameplay rather than focusing on the round-robin narrative style. I for one like the rule-lite approach because as a GM it makes setting up adventures/scenarios quick and easy. I like the more narrative rather than simulationist approach. I don't want a more complex version of Battletroops. When I read the fiction, I can imagine recreating those scenes in Destiny rather than ATOW.

[Daryk]

Well, you at least explained my visceral reaction to the fiction in the rule books better than I could...

[Dahmin_Toran]

I was talking about the novels.

[victor_shaw]

The system itself is fine...but it is unintuitive.
The rulebook is not. There is too much critical information left out and to much dross left in. An RPG does not need to be a BattleTroops replacement nor does it need alternate rules for AGoAC. The character creation process is overly complex and the life path system ill suited towards a game of so many factions and backgrounds.
As I've said before, you could rip out a third of the book without touching the RPG rules and have pointed out that much of what is in the companion volume is stuff that should be in the core RPG book.

The rulebook is not worth reprinting because, quite bluntly, it is unfit for purpose and it is unfit for purpose because ATOW was not designed as an RPG system. Its trying to fit three or four different games into the book and it doesn't work.


I don't think Destiny is the answer either.

Out of all the issues that AToW has, IMHO the AGoAC alternate rules are the least of them.

The fact that AGoAC exist in no way means that a quicker vehicle combat system is not needed for the RPG

Just because you have Star Wars: X-Wing for the FFG line did not mean you don't need a fighter combat system in Edge of the Empire/Age of Rebellion/Force and Destiny.

Just because you have Warhammer 40k did not mean you don't need a vehicle combat system in Wrath & Glory (WH40K RPG).

The reason for a RPG vehicle combat system comes down to one of two options,
1. To integrate the PCs into the existing combat system that was not made to use individual PCs.
2. To create a RPG system driven mechanic that is a quicker resolution system for combat as to not bog down a RPG group with having to setup and play a lengthy separate game to resolve a combat that is a minor obstacle in the game.

Lets face it AGoAC is not a short game and Alpha Strike is to abstract for RPG player integration(To easy for PC to die).
The issues with AToWs attempts at this is it failed on both accounts. It is not faster and more streamlined, and it doesn't integrate into either system it attempts to replace them.

I will give Destiny one thing, it made a step in the right direction with the vehicle combat system, a failed attempt but at least it made the attempt.

[Talen5000]

Out of all the issues that AToW has, IMHO the AGoAC alternate rules are the least of them.

In some ways? Yes. But they are still sn issue not least because a fully fleshed out RPG based Vehicular combat system is still missing. Meanwhile, pages of text are given over to rewriting AGoAC raher than "Use the boardgame"
 

The fact that AGoAC exist in no way means that a quicker vehicle combat system is not needed for the RPG

A skill translation system would take up 2 or 3 sentences on esch of about 7 skills.  More go the point, if it wad deemed necessary, thus is the sort of material that should be in the companion.

That it is in the core rulebook simply underscores that the BT RPG game is not being written or designed as an RPG

The RPG doesn't need a multipage converdion system for AGoAC...but it does need a vehicle combat system. That particular aspect gets 4 or 5 generic paragraphs.

Lets face it AGoAC is not a short game and Alpha Strike is to abstract for RPG player integration(To easy for PC to die).
The issues with AToWs attempts at this is it failed on both accounts. It is not faster and more streamlined, and it doesn't integrate into either system it attempts to replace them.[,/quote]

And being blunt...as an ***RPG*** integrating Mech combat into the game should NOT be a priority. By all means, a simplistic conversion system could be added....initiative is a tactics skill roll, your gunnery is equal to - 1 for every  3 skill levels, ECM is a computer roll, etc...but Mech scale is far beyond what an RPG should focus on. The RPG needs a decent vehicular combat system that includes a down and dirty system for Mech...e.g. all shots hit the CT but do 1/3 damage - called shots do full damage...but as an RPG, it doesn't need the effective rewrite of Mech combat. There is a game already in existence for that and if players really want to go all AGoAC they should simply be directed to use that game

Same thing for the Battletroops style rules...they aren't needed for a RPG.

There are huge sections of the game which don't work towards creating a RPG and should not be in a core rulebook. Easily a third to a half of the rulebook is wasted, and there is quite a lot of basic material which is in the Companion.

[Daryk]

*snip*
A skill translation system would take up 2 or 3 sentences on esch of about 7 skills.  More go the point, if it wad deemed necessary, thus is the sort of material that should be in the companion.
*snip*

I'll argue that point.  The skill translation to TW scale should absolutely be in the base RPG rule book, not a Companion.  As you said elsewhere, this is the BT RPG.  Not an RPG that happens to interface with BT.