The future of "A Time of War"

[Daryk]

*snip*
The core rules should address Mechs and Mech combat as part of an integrated vehicle ruleset that is focussed on RPG style gameplay - and it should use the TRO stats (which would make BattleArmour, Protos, Mechs and vehicles essentially invulnerable to RPG scale PCs) . Anything more detailed can be added as an appendix if there is room, or saved for a Companion (assuming there is one)

Using TRO stats doesn't make anything invulnerable.  TRO 3085 exists, along with Tech Manual.  The AToW Companion finally gave us the rules TPTB used to derive the other two (and was based on rules going back to Combat Operations).

[Talen5000]

Using TRO stats doesn't make anything invulnerable.  TRO 3085 exists, along with Tech Manual.  The AToW Companion finally gave us the rules TPTB used to derive the other two (and was based on rules going back to Combat Operations).

You take the weapons a typical PC team are likely to have and put them up against a Mech and then you don't nerf the Mech to "give the PCs a fighting chance" and yes - unless the PC have access to a few hundred infantry portable LRMs or the like, the Mech is going to be invulnerable to just about anything they can throw at it and they are going to die to anything the Mech uses to attack them.

Unless you think a PC armed with a longbow and some arrows, or a wooden club, should have the chance to destroy a Mech?

The TROs provide stats for Mechs and combat vehicles. Rather than worry about trying to integrate gameplay shortcuts form other BT games into the RPG or wasting space  on unnecessary conversion, the RPG should simply use the armour and weapons detailed in the TROs. Forget about a LRM doing 5D6+20 damage or whatever - just say it has the quality Anti-Mech (1). Don't try to recreate the wheel - use what is already there

[Daryk]

That's... what I'm saying?  Tech Manual has the stats for every AToW weapon converted to TW scale.  It's already in the boardgame.

[victor_shaw]

That's... what I'm saying?  Tech Manual has the stats for every AToW weapon converted to TW scale.  It's already in the boardgame.

I think the point he is making is that a PC scale weapon is not going to even scratch a Mech.
So outside of a whole platoon of PCs fire on the mech together their is no point in having rules within the RPG for attacking mech with such weapons.
And on this I have to agree.

[Daryk]

A bog standard Auto-Rifle with 4AP/4BD (Ballistic) and a 15 round burst does 0.52 damage at TW scale.  That rounds up to 1.  Weaker weapons do need to be added up at the Squad or Platoon level to do damage, but most of them can get there (no, bows and arrows don't, even with Taurian Platoons of 30... some kind of explosive strapped to an arrow might... cue the A-Team or MacGyver music).  Clubs can theorertically get there, but you have to survive a swarm attack with most of the troops alive.  Jamming metal sticks into joints COULD work.  But the odds are REALLY low (as they should be).  Desperation counts at the RPG level, and it certainly shouldn't count any less than it does at the boardgame level.

[victor_shaw]

A bog standard Auto-Rifle with 4AP/4BD (Ballistic) and a 15 round burst does 0.52 damage at TW scale.  That rounds up to 1.  Weaker weapons do need to be added up at the Squad or Platoon level to do damage, but most of them can get there (no, bows and arrows don't, even with Taurian Platoons of 30... some kind of explosive strapped to an arrow might... cue the A-Team or MacGyver music).  Clubs can theorertically get there, but you have to survive a swarm attack with most of the troops alive.  Jamming metal sticks into joints COULD work.  But the odds are REALLY low (as they should be).  Desperation counts at the RPG level, and it certainly shouldn't count any less than it does at the boardgame level.

The difference is that in the boardgame the units have to be able to do damage or they are not worth their BV cost.
And unlike the Boardgame 0.52 damage should stay 0.52 damage and not round up because its a RPG not the boardgame.
As stated the RPG is about PC and what PC can do, they don't need to justify their existence by being able to damage a mech like they need to be able to in the boardgame.
If you want them to fight mechs play TW. Don't bog down the RPG with rules on how to make desperation attacks on Mechs.

[Daryk]

The current RPG rules enable that 0.52 to increase with Measure of Success.  The AP vs. BAR rules were written at the AToW level, and work.

[victor_shaw]

The current RPG rules enable that 0.52 to increase with Measure of Success.  The AP vs. BAR rules were written at the AToW level, and work.

That's not the point.
The point is damaging a Mech should not even be an adjective of the rules if it happens as a byproduct then so be it.
If your PC are in a position where they need to takedown a Mech outside some narrative action, then the adventure was already badly made.

[Daryk]

No argument adventure-wise!  I'm just saying the rules of the universe make it posisble, if incredibly unlikely (as it should be).

The D&D analog to this situation is that a 1st level party might ding a dragon, but will still lose if they don't run for their lives.  For the WWII analog, see Saving Private Ryan and the "socks plus explosives" attack on the Panzer.  Desperation moves should be possible in an RPG.  They should ALSO be exceptionally hazardous.  And they ARE in AToW right now.

[victor_shaw]

And just to be clear on an earlier post.
I am in no way advocating that CGL should give up on making an RPG and just license a GURPS supplement.
Though I would support it if they did.
The point of the post was to show I know a single point pool system can work, just not the one they made for AToW.

Now you also have to look at the big difference between the two system.
It took SJG 4 editions using the same basic mechanics and 18 years of working out the bugs to bring the system to were it was when it released in 2004. And they are still working on it and improving it.
AToW is 10 years old and has little in the way of support.
The main issues with most of the Mechwarrior RPGs is that they never support them well. They never try to fix them, and they just bring out a total new system every so many years. 3rd edition being the only one they try to truly support. Why they chose the worst of the bunch to support I will never know.
For a system to develop it needs to be supported and refined. If you are just going to throw the baby out with the bathwater each time you are never going to get anywhere.
And to me that has been the most infuriating part of all the Mechwarrior RPG.
Again I think AToW can be saved, but the odds are low that they will even try.
As I said before If Destiny does well then AToW is done.
If Destiny does poorly then IMHO all further Mechwarrior RPGs are done.

[Daryk]

I very much agree with the "baby and bath water" analogy.  2e threw out all the stuff in the back of the original TRO 3026.  3e threw out 2d6.  AToW threw out 2d10 to get 2d6 back, and random rolls for character generation (that should have gone, in my opinion).  I can't speak to the other system.

I appreciate your position on GURPS.  I didn't take any of your posts as advocating TPTB do that.

[monbvol]

I'll admit this entire conversation has had me thinking about how I would do a priority system character creation option for AToW and I think I have a beta finally ready to share for feedback.

Placing it in my house rules thread so we don't derail this thread.

[victor_shaw]

I very much agree with the "baby and bath water" analogy.  2e threw out all the stuff in the back of the original TRO 3026.  3e threw out 2d6.  AToW threw out 2d10 to get 2d6 back, and random rolls for character generation (that should have gone, in my opinion).  I can't speak to the other system.

I appreciate your position on GURPS.  I didn't take any of your posts as advocating TPTB do that.

Mechwarrior 1 was not much of a RPG it was at most a pilot simulator. And to be fair not even really good at that.

I think that every incarnation of Mechwarrior to date has been an overreaction to issues with the previous edition.
Mechwarrior 2 was an overreaction to Mechwarrior being perceived poor RPG so they used a variant of the Shadowrun RPG.
MechWarrior 3 was an overreaction to complaints about the power gaming aspects of Mechwarrior 2
AToW was an overreaction to complaints about the random tables in the Lifepath system and underpowered character of MechWarrior 3
Destiny was an overreaction to complaints about the complexity of AToW.

The track recorded for the Mechwarrior RPG is to not try to fix anything, it's to throw it out and start over.
The funny thing is almost all of these editions could have been fixed if some work was put into them.

[Daryk]

And I'm working on it!  That's why my sig block has grown so much.

I look forward to your proposal, Monbvol!  I think I'm subscribed to your thread, so I should see when you post over there...

[monbvol]

It is up.  I probably should have also added a note that I haven't actually tried to make a character with it yet but I think that will come down to how I decide to handle Special Abilities or what feedback I get on that aspect.

[Daryk]

I see it!  It's there for everybody else too: https://bg.battletech.com/forums/fan-designs-rules/monbvol's-house-rule-emporium/msg1541011/?topicseen#new

[Grand_dm]

I would really like to see an updated book published. Having played the game now for a year, I like it. But the organization of the original book is akin to deciphering the Dead Sea scrolls.

That in my opinion is its biggest issue.

Also why is the Atow Companion not available as a POD? Driverthrurpg would work.

[guardiandashi]

I think the biggest issue with ATOW character creation isn't so much how many pages it takes up as how stuff is laid out.
like the fact that the standard 850 base xp is off in its own spot and not really obvious and similar

[Daryk]

That's just one example.  For the full aging rules, you need to flip to a section in the back of the book.  Organization is one thing I'll never even try to defend about my favorite edition.

[victor_shaw]

I would really like to see an updated book published. Having played the game now for a year, I like it. But the organization of the original book is akin to deciphering the Dead Sea scrolls.

That in my opinion is its biggest issue.

Also why is the Atow Companion not available as a POD? Driverthrurpg would work.

For the same reason that the MW2 Companion is and the MW2 corebook is not.

[Daryk]

Did I miss it?  What was the reason again?  ???

[victor_shaw]

Did I miss it?  What was the reason again?  ???

its a joke because the the two have the exact opposite availability.
For MW2 its because they don't have a PDF draft of it to sell and would have to make a scan version of it.
I really don't know the reason for the AToW companion.

[Daryk]

Ah, I remember someone mentioning the "no pdf" problem.  Agreed that the AToW Companion is a mystery.

[guardiandashi]

with the mw 2nd edition it might be because the core book was done before pdf's were really a standard thing but the companion was built and laid out in pdf.

as far as atow and atow companion no explanation

[idea weenie]

Time to destroy an old MW2e core book by slicing the spine, scanning the pages, converting via OCR, and correcting the mistakes?

Plus removing/converting any older artwork?

[victor_shaw]

Time to destroy an old MW2e core book by slicing the spine, scanning the pages, converting via OCR, and correcting the mistakes?

Plus removing/converting any older artwork?

Ouch!!
kind of extreme.

[Daryk]

And can really only be done legally by CGL itself...

[idea weenie]

Ouch!!
kind of extreme.

IIRC, someone had to do it to the Star League Sourcebook so it was available as pdf.  Think of it as surgery, painful yet necessary.

Still, for the surgery I'd be open to editing the Land Grant table on page 157 so it mainly focuses on income per noble rank rather than land area.  If someone wonders why income is kept instead of land area, we can use the paragraph on page 156 to explain why.  This is from MW2e -> Titles & Nobility -> Landholdings -> Holdings -> 2nd paragraph:

Holdings vary in scope and value.  The Duke of Omaha directly controls only a few thousand square kilometers of Newbraska's northern continent, but those holdings include the capital of one of the most important grain-producing agricultural worlds in the Federated Suns.  The Duchy of Fenestere, on the other hand, includes five star systems with a total of 18 planets.  Only one of these - a tide-locked, thin-aired, Low-G, fire-and-ice expanse of desert and glaciers - is even marginally inhabitable.

[twycross]

IIRC, someone had to do it to the Star League Sourcebook so it was available as pdf.  Think of it as surgery, painful yet necessary.

I remember reading or hearing somewhere...for the life of me, I can't remember where...that Warner Doles provided the sacrificial SL Sourcebook. He was, iirc, the one that had to do the dissection and post mortem scanning as well.

[victor_shaw]

And can really only be done legally by CGL itself...

This depends on how it is done.
If it's for personal use, it should be fine.
If you do it then post it for free then your in violation without approval.
If you do it then provide it to CGL to post you should also be good.