The future of "A Time of War"

[Talen5000]

I think the biggest issue with ATOW character creation isn't so much how many pages it takes up as how stuff is laid out.
like the fact that the standard 850 base xp is off in its own spot and not really obvious and similar

The amount of pages wouldn't be a concern....IF the page count didn't have limits. The book layout is certainly a concern but the simple truth is that you could remove a third...even half if you were ruthless enough...of the current book and not lose anything important, for an RPG anyway. Some of that gain would be lost through implementation of other systems such as a better chargen system, but that still leaves plenty of room to add in these basic features which were cut, many of which ended up in the Companion.

[Yskonyn]

If CGL is watching; here's another +1 to an updated and consolidated AToW re-issue.

[Dahmin_Toran]

A very good sign is that the new Tamar Rising book had stats for both A Time of War and Mechwarrior Destiny.

[victor_shaw]

A very good sign is that the new Tamar Rising book had stats for both A Time of War and Mechwarrior Destiny.

For me, I am not sure this really means anything at all. These are just the current versions out there. At most I would say it doesn't make MW:D look good. As why would  they waste the space on AToW (a game that's no even  available outside PDF) if the former was doing well.

[Daryk]

I think it means they're treating the game I can't name like Alpha Strike.  As long as AToW continues to exist I'm happy, even if there is a parallel set of rules with a slightly different focus.  As others have said, BattleTech is a big tent, scratching the itches of a wide vartiety of folks.

[rjhancock]

For me, I am not sure this really means anything at all. These are just the current versions out there. At most I would say it doesn't make MW:D look good. As why would  they waste the space on AToW (a game that's no even  available outside PDF) if the former was doing well.

Given how AToW and MW:D appeal to two different styles of play, I think it means they are choosing to support both.

[Daryk]

I certainly hope so!  :thumbsup:

[victor_shaw]

Given how AToW and MW:D appeal to two different styles of play, I think it means they are choosing to support both.

I think it means they're treating the game I can't name like Alpha Strike.  As long as AToW continues to exist I'm happy, even if there is a parallel set of rules with a slightly different focus.  As others have said, BattleTech is a big tent, scratching the itches of a wide vartiety of folks.

The question is are they supporting the games or placating the players?
Both games have major flaws that sometimes make them unplayable, Character creation and others for AToW, and Vehicle combat and a general lack of explanation for MW:D. Yet the best they give is a few pages here or there with the guns of the week or some modified affiliations for the era. To me this is TPTB throwing in a page or two to get RPG players to buy books that they otherwise wouldn't need to make a buck, and ignoring the issues that need to be fixed in the games in question.

So for me the answer to the above question is this is Placation not support.

[Daryk]

I prefer to think they are supporting boith games.  But I'm an optimist, so who knows?  ???

[Dahmin_Toran]

Since ATOW is many years out of print, people should be glad they are still getting a shout out.

[Grand_dm]

I'm convinced more people would be playing the game if the book was reprinted. The original is just a terrible jumble. Related rules all over the place. And the stupid fiction cluttering every chapter up.

It needs to be like the Battletech Manual. Just give us the rules.

[BrianDavion]

I'm convinced more people would be playing the game if the book was reprinted. The original is just a terrible jumble. Related rules all over the place. And the stupid fiction cluttering every chapter up.

It needs to be like the Battletech Manual. Just give us the rules.

agreed. fiction in the books ain't a bad idea, but maybe one story and release a "free to download" anthology

[Dahmin_Toran]

I think they would have to revamp the character creation system.

[abou]

I imagine CGL has done a cost-benefit analysis and decided to not focus on a new version of AToW anytime soon. They are likely busy with the next wave of products -- with or without a Kickstarter.  My best guess is that there are not enough people interested in an RPG for them to want to do a new AToW. That means AToW -- and maybe even Destiny -- will continue to limp along as it is "supported", but not really.

Although is the lack of interest because people don't want an RPG for the BattleTech universe OR because the rules system has too many flaws and lacks support?

[monbvol]

That's the catch 22 isn't it?

Which is also kind of the problem because I think it is a case of all of the above.

Now I know there are statements by Paul on these forums that if you go looking for them that there may be hope for CGL knowing they need to at least revise AToW but how much of a priority it is currently or if it'll even stay on the priority list at all is not something any of us can know right now.

[Daryk]

Agreed, monbvol... definitely a Catch-22.

[rjhancock]

Something to keep in mind is CGL is a small company that has enough work in the pipeline for a firm easily double its size (just a guess from my interactions with them) across multiple product lines.

So it is entirely possible that revisions to AToW are in the pipeline but keep getting pushed back due to time constraints on other projects.

[abou]

Yeah... but CGL hasn't exactly been great with a lot of products. I still can't believe we actually got TRO: Irregulars. And look how long it took for us to get to Interstellar Ops, which they still ended up splitting out into Campaign Ops. Now those actually came, but there is the long list of novels that has essentially become vaporware.

What was implied, but not said, in my last post was that I think the problem with a BattleTech RPG is that we just don't have the system people want to play. And if this is supposed to be the era of the BattleTech Revival, then now is the time to fix that. Especially since it has been almost 13 years since AToW was published.

[victor_shaw]

I think the main issues is that TPTB have a history of overreacting to criticism of the current RPG.
They have yet to just fix or revise a RPG, and instead drop an entirely new game. Throwing out the baby with the bath water so to speak.
So I don't expect them to fix the current games and when they finally get back around to them we will get an entirely new game with its own problems.
I hope I'm wrong but the history of the Battletech RPG in all its incarnations seem to support this.

[rjhancock]

I think the main issues is that TPTB have a history of overreacting to criticism of the current RPG.
They have yet to just fix or revise a RPG, and instead drop an entirely new game. Throwing out the baby with the bath water so to speak.
So I don't expect them to fix the current games and when they finally get back around to them we will get an entirely new game with its own problems.
I hope I'm wrong but the history of the Battletech RPG in all its incarnations seem to support this.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but aren't AToW and Destiny ones CGL created and the previous ones were from previous holders of the license/rights?

[Atlas3060]

Please correct me if I'm wrong but aren't AToW and Destiny ones CGL created and the previous ones were from previous holders of the license/rights?

You are correct.
A Time of War and Mechwarrior Destiney are CGL creations.
MW3:RPG aka CBT:RPG was FanPro and also FASA during the first run if I recall
the other previous Mechwarrior iterations were FASA.

[rjhancock]

Then based on my interactions and observations with CGL, I'll stand by my assessment that they both will get updates and tweaks over time. They are just swamped and in a state of catch up as the Kickstarter pushed their timeline ahead by about 2-3 years IIRC for releasing content.

[victor_shaw]

Please correct me if I'm wrong but aren't AToW and Destiny ones CGL created and the previous ones were from previous holders of the license/rights?

If you don't see Destiny as a direct overreaction to the criticism that AToW is to not working then I don't know what to tell you.
To me it is a continuation of the trend that has been with the MechWarrior RPGs since the beginning.

Then based on my interactions and observations with CGL, I'll stand by my assessment that they both will get updates and tweaks over time. They are just swamped and in a state of catch up as the Kickstarter pushed their timeline ahead by about 2-3 years IIRC for releasing content.

What updates and tweaks are you referring to?

[rjhancock]

If you don't see Destiny as a direct overreaction to the criticism that AToW is to not working then I don't know what to tell you.
To me it is a continuation of the trend that has been with the MechWarrior RPGs since the beginning.

I see Destiny as the RPG for Alpha Strike. Easier to digest and play. I see AToW as the RPG for Total Warfare.

What updates and tweaks are you referring to?

Errata, rule changes, QOL Improvements, etc. I've been watching CGL's actions and listening to what they've been saying and NOT saying. It all tells me they are over worked with a very large and long pipeline right now. Give them some more time. The pandemic and shipping issues have made it exponetionally harder on them.

[victor_shaw]

I see Destiny as the RPG for Alpha Strike. Easier to digest and play. I see AToW as the RPG for Total Warfare.

Errata, rule changes, QOL Improvements, etc. I've been watching CGL's actions and listening to what they've been saying and NOT saying. It all tells me they are over worked with a very large and long pipeline right now. Give them some more time. The pandemic and shipping issues have made it exponetionally harder on them.

Again I don't know what to tell you. If you want to give them the benefit of the doubt that's up to you. After almost 30 years of dealing with the battletech PTB I'm not.

As for the pandemic and shipping issues. When is this going to stop being an excuse for companies to not deliver product? It would be fine if like some companies they show some progress and then it got held up in the printers, but the idea that shipping issues are the reason no work at all has been done brings it into the excuse and not issue category.

The only errata sheet that I know of for AToW is mostly proofreading errors and the only rule changes I know of was the change in the cost of Fast and Slow Learner.

[rjhancock]

Let's just move on then shall we?

[victor_shaw]

What I want to see from CGL on AToW is a revised edition that;
1. Keeps the core RPG mechanics in place, they work once you get past character creation.
2. Fixes the character creation system removing the light outline nature of the system and makes your choses matter.
    A. Makes packages that are complete and don't just give suggestions on Attributes/Traits/Skills
    B. Gives hard and fast numbers for things like Field Skill packages.
    C. Adds depth to the later Paths. (Unique schools and cultural paths)
    D. Gives Traits unique costs (not just multiples of 100 XP) that are modifiable so they can drop all the like Traits (Examples: Vehicle, Custom Vehicle, Own Vehicle, Vehicle Quirks)
    E. Make it crystal clear that Trait cost are just for character creation and don't carry over to active play. You don't have to pay 100-200 more XP to switch to a heavier mech in play if its
    available.
3. A vehicle combat system that uses the RPG rule so as not to change the flow of the game.
    A. Simplified combat rules similar to Destiny, but not as watered down.
    B. I would suggest a Destiny/Alpha strike hybrid.
4. Drop the idea that Battlearmor needs its own combat system and integrate them back into the RPG rules.
5. Stories are great, but one short one is enough. Stop filling every chapter with 2-4 page novelettes.
6. Add an in-depth character creation outline for new players.
7. Don't go the Shadowrun 6th edition route.

While these are not all necessary for me to consider playing (except may be the first two for character creation) it would take at least some moves in this way for me to give it another try.

[StCptMara]

What I want to see from CGL on AToW is a revised edition that;
1. Keeps the core RPG mechanics in place, they work once you get past character creation.
2. Fixes the character creation system removing the light outline nature of the system and makes your choses matter.
    A. Makes packages that are complete and don't just give suggestions on Attributes/Traits/Skills
    B. Gives hard and fast numbers for things like Field Skill packages.
    C. Adds depth to the later Paths. (Unique schools and cultural paths)
    D. Gives Traits unique costs (not just multiples of 100 XP) that are modifiable so they can drop all the like Traits (Examples: Vehicle, Custom Vehicle, Own Vehicle, Vehicle Quirks)
    E. Make it crystal clear that Trait cost are just for character creation and don't carry over to active play. You don't have to pay 100-200 more XP to switch to a heavier mech in play if its
    available.

Truthfully, the biggest issue with AToW Chargen is....there is so much number crunching. I love the life path method,
but you have to do the whole thing, calculate out the price of your field, apply the field discount, and then calculate out the actual skill ranks for the given skills after everything, and then do the Optimization step.

I hate to say it, but I actually think something similar to the Traveler RPGs, where each stage in the life path actually gives you set skill increases and/or attribute increases and traits are all from random events, might be the best way to go.

[Daryk]

They tried the random event thing in 3rd edition... it wasn't great.

[StCptMara]

They tried the random event thing in 3rd edition... it wasn't great.

It wasn't great because it was just poorly implemented. As I said, looking at (later editions of) Traveller is a good place to start. One
major issue with the random events in 3rd Edition was simply that they often seemed irrelevant, or made little sense. Star Trek Adventures,
the current Star Trek RPG, also uses Random Events to do some elements in chargen. And then you have the Heritage Tables in all editions
of Legend of the Five Rings. Random Events *can* work well. Just....MW3rd, with its already involved math handled them poorly because they
just added more math...MW3rd and AToW probably would have done better to have been licensed GURPS products, and would have been less
math heavy.