’Mech of the Week: Thor II

[Kotetsu]

’Mech of the Week: Thor II

Thor II. Replacement for the iconic Thor (Summoner). Given the name Grand Summoner by the Clans, though perhaps not even recognized by them by that name. Renowned for its communications suite, which might even be able to penetrate ECM suites.

Still missing the hammer, though…

The Thor II comes from Technical Readout: 3145, and resembles the Age of Destruction miniature.

That the Thor II was designed to replace the Thor is a bit surprising. Frankly, I think I prefer the original, but that may be nostalgia. Or the fixed jump jets. The only reason I can think of as to why they might need to replace it is if the Jade Falcons had lost the ability to produce the Thor. If they had, I guess some of the blame must go to Aiden Pryde (since he basically wrecked every single Thor in the Falcon arsenal just before Tukayyid).

The first Thor IIs appeared in 3093, produced at a factory on Erewhon, where the first Thor II still stands, painted each year in the colors of the best cluster in the Falcon touman, as decided by the Khan herself. At 70 tons, the Thor II is the same weight as its forebear. It also uses a similar 350-rated extralight engine, giving it the same ground speed, though it lacks the fixed jump jets of the Thor. Unlike its predecessor, the Thor II uses an endo-steel skeleton. It does retain the fourteen double-strength heat sinks. Ten tons of ferro-fibrous armor provides 88% of maximum protection, laid out in a 9, 31/8, 22/7, 20, 23 pattern (head, center front/rear, side front/rear, arms, legs respectively). This left thirty and half tons of pod space available for weapons, eight tons more than the original Thor.

The Prime variant starts by restoring the jump jets, then adds a Class-5 Ultra autocannon and a medium laser in each arm, an additional medium laser in each side torso, and a 15-rack LRM launcher on the left shoulder. One ton of ammunition is allocated for each autocannon (placed underneath it), and two tons were allocated for the LRM (placed under the launcher).

Alpha begins with replicating the Thor Prime, with jump jets, a right arm-mounted Particle Cannon, a left arm-mounted Class-10 LB-X autocannon, and a 15-rack LRM launcher in the left torso. Additionally, a 5-rack LRM launcher was placed in the right torso. Two tons of ammunition are allocated for the autocannon and for the 15-rack, with one ton placed for the 5-rack.

Bravo skips the jump jets for lots of missiles. A 15-rack LRM launcher is in each arm, a 5-rack LRM launcher in each side torso, and both a 9-pack and a 6-pack ATM in the left torso. A small laser was installed in both the center and right torsos. Three tons of ammunition feeds each 15-rack, a ton of ammunition feeds the 5-rack, three tons for the 9-pack and two tons for the 6-pack.

Charlie is the close-in brawler of the configurations. A large pulse laser is mounted in each arm, a flamer is placed in the center torso, a 4-pack Streak SRM launcher is in the right torso, and a Class-20 Ultra autocannon is situated in the left torso. One ton of Streak ammunition and three tons of Class-20 ammunition are allocated.

Finally, Delta uses five jump jets, eight additional heat sinks, and mounts a medium and large laser in each arm, tied to a targeting computer. Finally, a 15-rack LRM launcher is placed in the left torso, fed by two tons of ammunition.

Using a Thor II changes slightly based on your configuration. More to the point, if you have jump jets, you can replicate the tactics you would use with a Thor. The other two official configurations differ in that the Bravo is more a stand-off and darken the sky with missiles type, whereas Charlie is more a city and close-quarters fighter. While I prefer the jumpers (better maneuverability and the OpFor tends to forget about jump jets at times), others aren’t so happy with them. I tend to jump in, strike, and jump out when I lose initiative. Rear shots are always decent goals (I believe the Clan view is if one can get into another’s back arc, it’s the other guy’s fault). The non-jumpers are more the slowly move forward and devastate your opponents as you close.

Fighting one is like facing a Thor: nerve-wracking. Heavy weapons are a good start. Pulses, targeting computers, and precision-armed autocannons also help. Key location for targeting is the left torso, which seems to carry ammunition, though Bravo has a tempting amount of bins in the right. Take any opportunities presented, whether accident or pilot-error.

The Thor II is present in all Inner Sphere Clan forces, and also in some other areas (at least based on the picture, and that it looks like the Dark Age mini for several Spheroid commands). And being produced by the Falcons, it is likely to be at the forefront of Hazen’s Mongol invasions. When the Fortress finally comes down, it may well make a strike as deep as Terra itself.

[marauder648]

Nice review of a good upgrade of the old classic.  I'd assume that the classic Thor is either hard to produce now or simply the Falcons wanted to design something that was a bit more flexible and in turn a bit more sensible.  The result is a mobile and well armed machine with variants (thus far) that are not as wonky as the old Thor's (until you get out of the classic 3050 ones that is).

One thing that does strike me as odd is the LRM 5 launchers on the Alfa and Bravo. The one tonne bin seems to me to indicate that on the Alfa especially, this is for specialist rounds, smoke perhaps and is in essence going to serve as a defensive weapon not an offensive one.  Again with the Bravo, the two launchers and their ammo could well be loaded with smoke rounds or swarm warheads and be used to caramelise infantry or block LOS.

[jymset]

Thank you for the article, Kotetsu.

So, from a dev's point of view: I was given a carte blanche to plan the units and their stats. My love of the Thor has been documented before. Of course, the "Dark Age" Thor would have to feature in TRO 3145 as the Thor II.

But strangely (thankfully), I restrained myself in the creativity department. The Endo Steel structure was documented by the existing dossiers, as were configurations A, B, and D. The Prime is from MechWarrior IV and the C from MechCommander (replacing a MPL with the Flamer). IIRC, the A should've even featured a second LRM5, but that was just too much. Well, it could've been shoe-horned in at the expense of going back to the same old 10 shots for the LB-X, but that's a compromise I was unwilling to take.

I was so happy with the result - which basically wrote itself - that I ended up cutting "my" E (2x ERPPC, 7-8 iJJ, some HS and basic electronics) before final submission. Leave this thing pure, I say!

[marauder648]

Heh I like that you restrained yourself, you could have gone berserk with Ferro-lammy and endo-comp for example.  You produced a darn good mech, although again must ask, why the LRM 5 on the Alfa?

[Empyrus]

I'll echo Marauder and reckon that the LRM-5 is best used for specialist rounds. A shame the Clans do not have Thunder-Augmented LRMs.
I'm thinking i'd like to have some machine guns or medium lasers ,heck, why not a pair of MGs and a ML, or small lasers, the LRM-5 doesn't seem to be that useful.
EDIT It seems pretty clear why the LRM-5 is there, existing stats and data mandated it, like with so many other Dark Age mechs.

I am not sure how i feel about the Grand Summoner. On one hand, it is a good upgrade to the original (Endo-Steel!), on the other hand it feels like it lost some of its charm by lacking fixed jump jets, even though one may not always need them.
It is too sensible, kind of. The Hel is as insane as its predecessor but better (provided you don't mind the slower speed), and i'm not sure it can be called a sensible mech still.

By the way, how does this work with the Hel, in theory? Do they complement each other in any way or are these two too different?

I do like the art though. Utilitarian, fits the Clans well. Also reminds me of the Mechwarrior IV Thor, which was probably my favorite mech in the game (at least, until the Hel inspired me to put a Long Tom to Loki. The hilarity of that made it my favorite mech).

EDIT Oh, and the intro date. Sarna lists its production year as 3119 for some reason, intro one year before(?). I presume Sarna is incorrect here for some reason.

[Arkansas Warrior]

I love the chassis, it's what the Thor always should've been; jump jets when you need them, extra payload when you don't.  But the mixed-size missile launchers drive me mad.  2 LRM-15s and 2 LRM-5s?  Why not just mount two LRM-20s and not have to worry about carrying two different sizes of the LRM ammo?  That's something that's always been a Thor hallmark I guess, but it irks me.  The C and D are excellent though.

[Wrangler]

EDIT Oh, and the intro date. Sarna lists its production year as 3119 for some reason, intro one year before(?). I presume Sarna is incorrect here for some reason.

It's fixed now, I'm not sure what happened. I do remember there was some conflicts intro dates between the TRO and the MUL. I guess TRO's dates won out on the Thor II.

I like the Mech, thank you jymset for such a balanced machine that you can beat other opponents with!

[marauder648]

By the way, how does this work with the Hel, in theory? Do they complement each other in any way or are these two too different?

Going off the Primes of both Variants they work well together, both are basically long to mid range fighters and with their clantech weapons they generally outrange anyone not using clantech.  The Loki II is a pocket assault mech really with the ability to reach out and touch someone at long range that most assault mechs go green with envy.  2 Gauss, 2 ER Large is mind numbing when you see it on a 65 tonne chassis.  I honestly don't think there's anything Clan or IS that can come close to that throw weight in direct firepower and range until about 75 tonnes starting with a Timberwolf Prime.  And in the IS you're looking at assault mechs to have that much throw weight. 

The Thor II again is basically built for long range combat, the UAC is a fairly long range gun and the LRM-15 is there for some nice indirect and direct firepower and its got the mobility to control the range and speed of the engagement pritty well.
Whilst its not really got that much actual direct solid WALLOP like the Old Thor with its 15 point hole punch and LB-10 you'd still not want to be on the reciving end of a pair of UAC-5's a LRM-15 and a quartet of ER Meds. 

To me the Hel is a 'tank destroyer' its built to engage and make things 'go away' at very long range out of the range of most weapons.  The Thor II is a generalist and in doing so they would support each other well.  Assuming a situation where Zel's gone out the window (Mongol doctrine says hello) the you could easily imagine a Hel staying back and delivering its knock down power punches whilst at mid to long range a Thor II working with it would cut up or hammer anything that the Hel's already brought under its guns.  Its spread out fire looking for the nice juicy gaps in enemy armour punched by the Hel's Gauss and ER Large laser barrage.

And if you wanted to be really sick throw a Vulture II prime in there, quad LRM-20's.  Macross missile spam for sure for all your sandblasting needs.

And I must echo Arkasnas Warrior's comment re the missile boat.  Why not go with 2 x LRM 20, and 2 x ATM-6's instead of the 15, 5, 9, 6 mix.  I suppose its a bit boring and less quirky and clan variants tend to be a bit speshul at times with their weapon load outs (or how much ammo they have ;p ) so its a nod to the 3050 designs I guess :)

[cold1]

The II's chassis is an upgrade.  The configs are pretty good too.

I would like to have seen that E, or some other powerful new layout that broke the old Summoner mold.

[marauder648]

Indeed Cold1 a lot of the new Clan mechs are refinements and polishing of their old designs (Mad Kitty in many flavours, new vulture, new Hellbe and Summoner) as well as a general swing towards being more rational and less quirky. The new Scientists who replaced those who who were annihilated WENT SHOPPING AND HAVE YET TO RETURN*have produced a slew of new machines in TRO 3075 and, 3085 and 3145 where they are using their technology to the fullest and producing viable machines of fearsome power.

Edited by the Watch.*

[Scotty]

The bravo confuses me.  You have that many missiles... and you make them into four different sizes of two different launchers that have eight tons of ammunition between them that fire six different kinds of missile?  Yeah, that's flexible, but damn is it inefficient.  I'd rather drop the LRM-5s in order to bring the other ATM up to a -9 and make it easier for launchers to swap ammo bins as necessary.  As is, it's eclectic as hell.

[Empyrus]

Well, at least enemy warriors have no idea what's hitting them next...

That variant should be filled with LRM-5s and ATM-3s, IMO. Exact amount of firepower delivered each time, no overkills and more efficient ammo use. At least on paper, i find such concept cool.

[jymset]

It's been asked, so here is the unreleased E configuration. I'm posting it here cause I'm not meant to go over to fan designs. This is in no way official, but if the following should pop up somewhere in the future, consider it a preview. ^-^

Code: (Alternate Configuration E) [Select]

ER PPC RA 2 6
ER Small Laser CT 1 .5
ER PPC LA 2 6
Improved Jump Jets RT 8 8
Improved Jump Jets LT 8 8
Double Heat Sink RL 2 1
Double Heat Sink LL 2 1
Battle Value: 2,638

Uh, yeah. No electronics. Even 20+ years after their introduction, Clan ERPPCs are imo the game's best weapon. Combining 2 on a chassis while the speed/armor/heat parameters are *ok* will always make for a competitive unit. And ijj because

I would like to have seen that E, or some other powerful new layout that broke the old Summoner mold.

[Empyrus]

Could have had Light Active Probe ("basic electronics") or Light TAG instead of an ER Small Laser.

[jymset]

Yeah, I actually made sure that the light active probe is featured on a few CJF totem 'Mechs (Gyrfalcon, Jade Hawk) and had it on this for a bit. But I think the choice veered this way because great as ERPPCs are, the alpha damage for a 70-tonner is somewhat limited, so 5 extra damage do help. Also, even with it, the thing is only +4 heat on a jumping alpha strike, so...

Gah, are we discussing "fan designs" now?! :D :-X

[Scotty]

Personally, if we're going for "breaking the Summoner mold", I'd go with something very high alpha, to the tune of... oh, let's go with this old thing.

Honorable mention for the second design on that post.

[Col.Hengist]

Personally , it's just not a Thor for me. The proposed E configuration is more something I would have liked to see in there, along with an H varient.

 It's not a bad design, but if it's a vee hunter I'd rather see an lbx-5 than an ultra. I'm of the opinion that it's a better gun ( I'll not get into my distaste for ultras here ).

 The winky lrm sizes... Eh, I can live with that. I like specialty ammo.

[glitterboy2098]

The bravo confuses me.  You have that many missiles... and you make them into four different sizes of two different launchers that have eight tons of ammunition between them that fire six different kinds of missile?  Yeah, that's flexible, but damn is it inefficient.  I'd rather drop the LRM-5s in order to bring the other ATM up to a -9 and make it easier for launchers to swap ammo bins as necessary.  As is, it's eclectic as hell.

well, partly this is due to the need to match the MWDA figures. like Noel Hurtado's mech, with is basically the stock Bravo



i would argue there is some logic to it.
the LRM5's can be used with special ammo. minefields, smoke, etc. the LRM15's provide the main fire support. and the ATm's are direct fire support/close defense.. i would imagine they usually run standard and HE ammo for the ATm's, the maximize the firepower.

[Scotty]

well, partly this is due to the need to match the MWDA figures. like Noel Hurtado's mech, with is basically the stock Bravo



i would argue there is some logic to it.
the LRM5's can be used with special ammo. minefields, smoke, etc. the LRM15's provide the main fire support. and the ATm's are direct fire support/close defense.. i would imagine they usually run standard and HE ammo for the ATm's, the maximize the firepower.

I'd still rather combine them into a pair of LRM-15s and a pair of ATM-6s or ATM-9s, so you can avoid having two or three tons of extraneous ammo, or that you could use for additional alternate munitions for your main launchers. 

[Jellico]

So basically the complaint comes down to it following the already published variants too closely?

[Scotty]

So basically the complaint comes down to it following the already published variants too closely?

Not sure entirely who that was aimed at, but my complaint stems from having four different sizes of two different kinds of launcher with four (standard) kinds of ammo between them. :P  Logistical nightmare.

[SteelRaven]

I'll always prefer the 3050 Omnis (for nostalgia if anything else) but I do like the Thor II. The Grand Summoner is not the same as the original Summoner but clan sequel mechs rarely try to be the same as their parent mech (exp; Mad Cat II and III) It's a little tougher and carries more firepower, can't argue with that.     

[Ghostbear_Gurdel]

This is a proper II mech. It improves upon the original, and can do everything the original can and then some. I approve  O0

[Diablo48]

I like the base chassis, but I am not particularly impressed with the configurations.  The Prime would have been much better off with more flexible 5-Xs while the A and B really need to decide on a standard launcher size and stick with it.  The C is better because it at least has some idea of what it wants to do even if it could really use more SRMs to back up the big -20.  The D is a good idea, but it is significantly oversinked with no possible way to generate heat in normal operation so it could have been significantly improved by pulling seven DHS to make room for a major expansion of its short range arsenal (that or more DHS and long range guns).

It's been asked, so here is the unreleased E configuration. I'm posting it here cause I'm not meant to go over to fan designs. This is in no way official, but if the following should pop up somewhere in the future, consider it a preview. ^-^

Code: (Alternate Configuration E) [Select]

ER PPC RA 2 6
ER Small Laser CT 1 .5
ER PPC LA 2 6
Improved Jump Jets RT 8 8
Improved Jump Jets LT 8 8
Double Heat Sink RL 2 1
Double Heat Sink LL 2 1
Battle Value: 2,638

Uh, yeah. No electronics. Even 20+ years after their introduction, Clan ERPPCs are imo the game's best weapon. Combining 2 on a chassis while the speed/armor/heat parameters are *ok* will always make for a competitive unit. And ijj because

That would have been a wonderful configuration to get, although I would have used a Flamer (or possibly a Micro Pulse Laser, but a Flamer is much more flexible) instead of the ERSL to clear out the infantry that seem to be everywhere these days.

Another fun thought would be to do something with iJJs and a class 20 (probably a 20-X to differentiate it from the C) to make a crazy urban combat machine and further explore the possibilities offered by iJJs because that is one of the things the original could not do.

[Scotty]

IJJs are difficult with something this big, because it costs you 16 tons out of your 30.5 tons of podspace in order to mount.  That's a single 20, with some ammo.  And a small laser.

[SteelRaven]

Surprised no one has mentioned how the configuration seemed to be inspired in many ways by MW4. The prime configuration is close to the Prime in MW4 and the Delta is more or less what I used in that game.

[Empyrus]

Jymset said the Prime is from MW IV.
Though MW IV had a Machine Gun (array) in the RT along with two ERMLs, rather than one per side torso.

EDIT It seems the original Summoner's F config is also based on Mechwarrior IV, though it has smaller missile launcher.

[cold1]

So basically the complaint comes down to it following the already published variants too closely?

I wouldn't say complain really

I'm not a big fan of the Summoner but I really like the Thor II... it has the right mix of speed, armor, and firepower at 70 tons for a clan mech.  The original is light on armor and pod space, the II gets it where it needs to be.

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, a 5/8/7 with a LB-20X and some MPL would have been fun to play around with . . . maybe a single LRM5 for laughs.  This adds to the solid line up of heavies the Falcons are churning out . . . Summoner II, Hel, TBolt IIC and IIRC a few others . . . post-Jihad they seem to have a solid arsenal compared with using Kit Fox, Hellbringer and Summoners before.

[Empyrus]

Speaking of that, we need Kit Fox II.
I like its concept, a light that can punch way above its weight.
What's the Falcons' current standard light mech?

-----------

One thing that struck me odd is the critical space arrangement of the Grand Summoner. Very little space in arms. Sure, it seems it can carry most of the Clan arsenal in its arms (don't need those actuators) but still, it seems to have oddly little space there. It is a nice, interesting quirk for sure.

[Diablo48]

IJJs are difficult with something this big, because it costs you 16 tons out of your 30.5 tons of podspace in order to mount.  That's a single 20, with some ammo.  And a small laser.

Agreed, but that does not mean you cannot have some fun with it and surprise the heck out of someone who is not expecting that out of a heavy 'Mech.  You can also cut back to seven iJJs like Colt Ward suggested to get a real laser or two in there while maintaining the ability to get a TMM more commonly associated with light 'Mechs.  I am personally leaning towards heavy lasers because it has tons of heat dissipation and very little free weight, but there are lots of options because the fundamental concept makes it a nice quirky unit that avoids stupid territory by virtue of unusual design choices.

[marauder648]

Speaking of that, we need Kit Fox II.
I like its concept, a light that can punch way above its weight.
What's the Falcons' current standard light mech?

Isn't it now the http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Eyrie as their standard light, a short range powerhouse.

[Scotty]

Speaking of that, we need Kit Fox II.
I like its concept, a light that can punch way above its weight.
What's the Falcons' current standard light mech?

The Cougar, which is pretty much the final statement in "Killing Power: Light 'Mech Edition".

[Empyrus]

I forgot the Cougar's still around. A good mech but... eh. Beats the Kit Fox in its game i guess.
And the Eyrie offers more speed than the Kit Fox for scouting purposes. A shame Eyrie has no arms, looks ugly, too ugly.

Ahem, shutting up about other mechs now.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Is the Cougar still around?  I thought I remembered reading somewhere that it has gone OOP.

[Empyrus]

Is the Cougar still around?  I thought I remembered reading somewhere that it has gone OOP.

I'm not shutting up about other mechs after all... Perhaps it was OOP for the Homeworld Clans after the Wars of Reaving and not for the Inner Sphere Clans?

[Scotty]

Or perhaps out of production doesn't mean gone? :P  It's still on the MUL for CJF (and oddly Wolf) in the Republic Era.

[Colt Ward]

Wolf is easy, salvage . . . why do you think both Wolves have huge stocks of Linebacker spare parts?  Because Falcon Hellbringers are walking resupply points.

The Falcons were also building the Pinion and Spirit in the IS for garrison purposes, the Spirit is one nice secondline IMO.

[Scotty]

Wolf is easy, salvage . . . why do you think both Wolves have huge stocks of Linebacker spare parts?  Because Falcon Hellbringers are walking resupply points.

The Falcons were also building the Pinion and Spirit in the IS for garrison purposes, the Spirit is one nice secondline IMO.

The odd part is that the Falcons are exclusive users in the Jihad era.  It didn't seem like there was quite that much conflict between the end of the Jihad and the start of the Republic Era (~3100) between the Falcons and Wolves to result in the latter (and In-Exile) having meaningful numbers of Cougars.

[Colt Ward]

Not sure how they would be exclusive users as it was Marthe's revamp project and she fought the Lyrans to Coventry with it, it probably defended against saKhan Hall's distracting romp during Op Bulldog, traded planets with the Crusader Wolves though usually coming out ahead, and finally Op Audacity where she plowed into the Lyrans again before getting countered by both Wolves and some Lyran forces.

[Ghostbear_Gurdel]

The D is a good idea, but it is significantly oversinked with no possible way to generate heat in normal operation so it could have been significantly improved by pulling seven DHS to make room for a major expansion of its short range arsenal (that or more DHS and long range guns).

This is one I will have to argue with. While I usually prefer bracket firing designs, I think this mech is just fine heat wise. It is a jumping alpha baby, with no minimum ranges. Sure at longer ranges, the heat sinks for the ERmeds are wasted, but the mech is fast enough that it should be able to bring them into range fairly quickly. Overall this is more of a high tempo, in your face design. I think the heat capacity is just fine.

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, its about medium range for the ERLLs being the same as long for the ERMLs.

[marauder648]

I belive the Cougar is still in production with the Falcons as they pushed the winged Cougar XR into production as well.  And in all honesty why would they want to remove the Cougar from service, its a lethal machine, save the Tiburon and Hellion probably one of the Clans best lights.

[Deadborder]

The TRO3145 NTNU section said that the Cougar had been restored to production.

The biggest perk of the Thor II over its predecessor is the podded jump jets. This allows it a bit more flexibility to either go for no-jet configs or IJJ ones. It's a lot more flexibility then the original offered, especially in this age of expanded options.

Interestingly enough, the original Thor may still be in production. It was built by Olivetti on Sudeten, while the Thor II is built by Eagle Craft Grup on Erewhon. True, the Thor may have been discontinued and its lines repurposed for other designs, but the two are not exclusive

[JadeHellbringer]

Sounds like a great discussion for another article.

[Diablo48]

This is one I will have to argue with. While I usually prefer bracket firing designs, I think this mech is just fine heat wise. It is a jumping alpha baby, with no minimum ranges. Sure at longer ranges, the heat sinks for the ERmeds are wasted, but the mech is fast enough that it should be able to bring them into range fairly quickly. Overall this is more of a high tempo, in your face design. I think the heat capacity is just fine.

Yeah, its about medium range for the ERLLs being the same as long for the ERMLs.

The thing is, you can get that same firepower with other weapons easily enough and still have room for more.  Three ERMLs would match the damage output (although the accuracy and cluster size is not as good) and leave you another four tons to play with after pulling the DHS, or you could go with two ERMLs and two SSRM 4's with a ton of ammo for significantly more firepower and greatly improved critseeking.  The heat can start to get problematic if the streaks lock a lot while jumping, but you can fix that easily enough by dropping a laser while still putting out more damage than the canon configuration.

[Colt Ward]

Not saying it is not a problem, it just has some interesting range options . . . its also a pretty straight conversion of the old Summoner D, minus MGs.

[Col.Hengist]

Cougars always exist... Just go to any clanner bar.

[Orin J.]

the Thor II just looks like a more symmetrical Thor, which leads me to think some of the common parts in the older 'mech aren't shared by the 'mechs the falcons are producing in the IS right now. or Aiden really DID break every Thor in their possession and they couldn't find a single surviving right shoulder in the mess!

i don't like the II as much, but that's mainly because i dislike pod-mount jumpjets, which is really it's own thread and something i've harped on before.

[Demon55]

I have really grown to like the Summoner over time.  The Thor II looks like a good machine.

[Wrangler]

Has anyone used the Grand Summoner/Thor II in combat before?  It looks good on paper.

[cold1]

Has anyone used the Grand Summoner/Thor II in combat before?  It looks good on paper.

Yeah works like an improved Summoner.  I shall hear by refer to it as the iSummoner.

[Deadborder]

I've had a lot of luck with the Thor II in 3145 era Megamek games, the D config especially. I have one Falcon pilot who has nicknamed his ER LLs the "Wo
fslayer sniper rifles" due to terrifying accuracy and headshots

[SCC]

Does anyone else get a Timber Wolf with less armor vibe from this re-design?

[JadeHellbringer]

Yeah works like an improved Summoner.  I shall hear by refer to it as the iSummoner.

Thor II: Thor Harder

[Colt Ward]

Yeah works like an improved Summoner.  I shall hear by refer to it as the iSummoner.

Since it runs the Mac3100 operating system how is it compatible with Windows OS pods?  Sort of defeats the Omni purpose.

[WarGod]

its supposed to be 3145, why not ATM version of the missile boat?  you have enough payload space to have so MUCH fun with it.

[O5P_Ghost]

Cougars always exist... Just go to any clanner bar.

The problem with Clan Cougars is they're 25-29 and don't fit the bracket right....

[GreekFire]

Can someone who owns Record Sheets:3145 tell me if it has the Thor II E in it or not?

I know that we got the config in TRO:3150 and not in TRO3145:The Clans, but I just realized that I don't have the record sheet and I'm not actually sure if it exists or not.

[Scotty]

Can someone who owns Record Sheets:3145 tell me if it has the Thor II E in it or not?

I know that we got the config in TRO:3150 and not in TRO3145:The Clans, but I just realized that I don't have the record sheet and I'm not actually sure if it exists or not.

It does not.  The Thor II E comes directly from Iron Wind Metals when they released a sculpt for it.  It's available from their downloads section.

[Wrangler]

Oof. I forgot that IronWinds makes those nonCanon variants. I thought they only did that when they had a variant that was canon but no record sheet...

[Empyrus]

Those are official record sheets. Says so on the site.
Majority of their RS are for variants described in TROs but haven't received sheet otherwise. The Grand Summoner E is something of an exception, but if you read the thread, the variant was cut from the final product. Also canon, because it is listed on MUL.

[Wrangler]

That's dumb. It's in the MUL and yet they don't bother to include it as a record sheet. And yet they let a third party published the record sheet.

[Empyrus]

Uncertain of the order here, if MUL listed it first or IWM released the sheet first.

As for why TRO3145Clans didn't include the sheet originally, it is probably due to page limits (EDIT err, in as much as those count for digital products). Why RS3145unabridged didn't include it, uncertain, but page limits or just having what the mini-PDFs had are likely reasons.

[GreekFire]

Snip

Thanks, Empyrus.

[GreekFire]

I also asked about the nature of the record sheets here, in case anyone is interested: https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=68688.new#new

[Colt Ward]

Its sort of like the unofficial 'official' sheets that the makers released for some of the variants listed in the books.  As suggested, it was probably a last minute cut to the product that IWM had already slotted in the production cycle.

[Caedis Animus]

... Looking at the 'E', I don't see what's so broken about it, all things considered. It doesn't mount a targcomp, meaning it's dealing with a consistent +3mod, plus the fact you can't fire both ERPPCs every turn without rapid heat gain.

Like, sure, it's good, and effective by virtue of double headcap and 8 Jump, but I guess I just don't think of it as 'nasty' and more 'quirky'.

[Empyrus]

... Looking at the 'E', I don't see what's so broken about it, all things considered.

Nothing? It moves rapidly and has a pair of headcappers but overall damage output is kinda low for a Clan heavy.

[Caedis Animus]

Nothing? It moves rapidly and has a pair of headcappers but overall damage output is kinda low for a Clan heavy.

I dunno, reading up earlier in the article I guess I kinda got the impression that it'd be better. It's certainly not the cheese I was expecting.

[Scotty]

... Looking at the 'E', I don't see what's so broken about it, all things considered. It doesn't mount a targcomp, meaning it's dealing with a consistent +3mod, plus the fact you can't fire both ERPPCs every turn without rapid heat gain.

Like, sure, it's good, and effective by virtue of double headcap and 8 Jump, but I guess I just don't think of it as 'nasty' and more 'quirky'.

IJJs generate half heat, it gains a whopping two heat while jumping max distance and firing both guns.  Since heat doesn't affect jumping movement, that means the very first heat level you actually care about is 8.

[Colt Ward]

2-2-2-1 firing pattern?  Better than the old Warhammer & Marauder patterns.

[grimlock1]

2-2-2-1 firing pattern?  Better than the old Warhammer & Marauder patterns.

It's not hard to beat the old Marauder pattern.  The Warhammer could maintain 2-1-2 with the PPCs on a run, without being dragged down to 3/5

[Colt Ward]

The Grand Summoner E is a interesting looking mini . . . I never got a original Summoner, thought about the Grand but might pass since I will get one from the KS.

[Scotty]

The Grand Summoner E is a interesting looking mini . . . I never got a original Summoner, thought about the Grand but might pass since I will get one from the KS.

They're significantly different enough that I like mine and will be keeping them even when I make the switch to plastic for good.  Grand Summoners are significantly more symmetrical, and are easy to tell apart even from a distance.

[Colt Ward]

Can you share a picture of the two of them next to each other?

[Scotty]

Can you share a picture of the two of them next to each other?

Not presently, no, but the Ironwind store pages and kickstarter update have pictures that will suffice.

[Colt Ward]

Well I was meaning original Summoner & Grand next to each other . . . putting all the Wolverines in a row really showed how the -8K was skinny.

[Scotty]

The two pictures from Ironwind are very close to scale with each other and are arranged as close to 'next to each other' as I can get on a forum post.  I'm not sure what other information you're looking to glean from them.

[Colt Ward]

Nothing more than I mentioned.  Thanks for arranging them- I kept flipping back & forth between the 2 on IWM's site.  I may have to add the Grand Summoner to my IWM list, the blocker MWDA take without the paneling would be visually different from what will end up on tables.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Of course, the Thor II A makes a perfect Thor Prime mini, too.

[Caedis Animus]

IJJs generate half heat, it gains a whopping two heat while jumping max distance and firing both guns.  Since heat doesn't affect jumping movement, that means the very first heat level you actually care about is 8.

Ahhhh. Not as familiar with IJJs as I thought, then.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Yeah, IJJs have twice the mass and take up twice the criticals of standard jump jets, but they only generate 1 heat for every two hexes jumped (minimum of 3 heat)

[ThePW]

The TRO3145 NTNU section said that the Cougar had been restored to production.

The biggest perk of the Thor II over its predecessor is the podded jump jets. This allows it a bit more flexibility to either go for no-jet configs or IJJ ones. It's a lot more flexibility then the original offered, especially in this age of expanded options.

Interestingly enough, the original Thor may still be in production. It was built by Olivetti on Sudeten, while the Thor II is built by Eagle Craft Grup on Erewhon. True, the Thor may have been discontinued and its lines repurposed for other designs, but the two are not exclusive

My personal Head cannon is that legacy JF units from OP:R are built for training purposes (example: Why does the Wolf Empire still take the time Hand Build Legacy Timberwolves?). Compared to the resources used to build Hel's, old school Hellbringers are cheap.

[Wrangler]

My personal Head cannon is that legacy JF units from OP:R are built for training purposes (example: Why does the Wolf Empire still take the time Hand Build Legacy Timberwolves?). Compared to the resources used to build Hel's, old school Hellbringers are cheap.

but but...Warriors like shiny new things.

[Colt Ward]

My personal Head cannon is that legacy JF units from OP:R are built for training purposes (example: Why does the Wolf Empire still take the time Hand Build Legacy Timberwolves?). Compared to the resources used to build Hel's, old school Hellbringers are cheap.

Calling the Timber Wolves hand built is a misnomer . . . they are hand assembled, no one is handbuilding the 300XL that goes into the design.  Also consider the Wolves have 2 other 75t mechs in their production lines and they would have a large stock of Timber Wolves post Invasion . . . less after the Jihad of course.  The Warwolf is going to use the same gyro, engine and actuators- the Tundra Wolf will use the same gyro and actuators.  Offhand IIRC the Dire Wolves would use the same engine too.

Instead of being automated production lines like modern car factories, you are looking at something like the WWII bomber aseembly lines . . . and that throw away line has probably been causing TPTB heartburn for years b/c of some players insistence.

[glitterboy2098]

i'd argue the closer comparison would be the custom built Hot-Rod industry. workshops taking materials and parts from existing modern vehicle sources and then modifying and assembling those parts in a workshop to create a vehicle that looks like and largely performs like an old classic car.

the methodology is pretty much the same as the aircraft assembly line example*, but gets across the small batch nature of the canon Timberwolf Production better.


*modern aircraft are actually assembled much the same way as they were in WW2, so comparing 'modern' production vs old style kinda falls flat here.
compare:
to

given that most mass production mech assembly in clan and IS space is also in such "Parallel workshop" form and not automated, further distinction is needed between small batch custom production like the Timberwolf, and the large batch production of other mechs. which is better allegoricalized by comparison to an industry where production is centered on small workshops rather than large assembly facilities.

[Empyrus]

I'd imagine "hand-assembled" means something like modern aircraft production, while typical 'Mech production uses robots and automated manufacturing lines (with more robots and automation as tech level increases).

[Colt Ward]

I thought the sub-assemblies had more robotics?  But yeah, in my mind it was in opposition to . . .



or



Or the Pacific Rim type factory . . .

[Caedis Animus]

Odd tangent relating to Titanfall-Regular Titans are literally built on the orbiting ship 5 minutes before they are deployed. That's canon. They come as pre-assembled 'chunks' like in the picture you linked, and are dropped from orbit as soon as they are completed, but otherwise come unassembled.

Come to think of it, it's one of the very precious few advantages Titanfall Titans have over Battlemechs.

Regardless, I'd wager it's a happy middle ground. You aren't building a Zeus in 5 minutes, let alone a month (One of the closest weight analogues to the Ogre-Class Titan), but it's not all done with sweat either.

[ThePW]

I'd imagine "hand-assembled" means something like modern aircraft production, while typical 'Mech production uses robots and automated manufacturing lines (with more robots and automation as tech level increases).

Since they control one (or several) Orion factories and make a modern IIC, Hand-built = Labor of Love. Even though the Timberwolf is in some ways obsolete at 3150+, perhaps it holds the position that the Orion IIC used to, to Clan Wolf (Empire) and reserve it as gifts to specific Ristars. Or use it as their trainer assets?

As for the Thor II, never driven one. But like most of the Dark Age units, its better than the original.

[GreekFire]

Since they control one (or several) Orion factories and make a modern IIC, Hand-built = Labor of Love. Even though the Timberwolf is in some ways obsolete at 3150+, perhaps it holds the position that the Orion IIC used to, to Clan Wolf (Empire) and reserve it as gifts to specific Ristars. Or use it as their trainer assets?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the only reference to the handbuilding Mad Cats from Objective: The Clans, when the Wolves were at their worst? I'd assume that over time they'd purchase or develop plans for a new factory if they really wanted to keep the line going - especially by 3150.

That said, since we don't have full production info for the Wolf Empire, it's all up in the air by them. I'm assuming they don't make any at all - handbuilt or otherwise.

Going back to the Thor II, though, I wonder if the original Thor chassis could still be a secondary line in the same factory - if the Falcons produce more XL engines or Ferro Armor than Endo-Steel, for example, they can just build a standard Thor and ship that out instead.

[Empyrus]

Think the Falcons direct excess production toward the Thunderbolt IIC, which uses various components left over from Thor, Loki, and Turkina production.

[Colt Ward]

Since they control one (or several) Orion factories and make a modern IIC, Hand-built = Labor of Love. Even though the Timberwolf is in some ways obsolete at 3150+, perhaps it holds the position that the Orion IIC used to, to Clan Wolf (Empire) and reserve it as gifts to specific Ristars. Or use it as their trainer assets?

As for the Thor II, never driven one. But like most of the Dark Age units, its better than the original.

Actually, its NOT a IIC that is made . . . its a Orion C made on Kalidasa IIRC, a hybrid design of IS internals and Clan weapons.  The Timber Wolf is still a worthwhile design, not sure how the standard bearer for heavy cav is obsolete.

[Empyrus]

I think the Savage Wolf is an improvement over the Timber Wolf. Alaric Ward sure has no issues using it.

Speaking of heavy cavalries, the Grand Summoner vs Timber Wolf? The Grand Summoner has less armor but more firepower, and commonly higher mobility thanks to JJs.

[Scotty]

I think the Savage Wolf is an improvement over the Timber Wolf. Alaric Ward sure has no issues using it.

Speaking of heavy cavalries, the Grand Summoner vs Timber Wolf? The Grand Summoner has less armor but more firepower, and commonly higher mobility thanks to JJs.

I would take a Grand Summoner in most fights, especially if canon configurations are being used.  Grand Summoner configurations, even the mismatched missile pods on the B, are generally excellent.

[Colt Ward]

Savage vs Timber is a contrast of trade offs- just like Warwolf vs Timber, its rock/paper/scissors.

With the weight most Grands spend on JJ, I think they get the edge on maps they use . . . but unless I missed something, its not using any of the new (post Jihad) structural components just spending the weight a bit more efficiently than the original Summoner.

[Scotty]

Savage vs Timber is a contrast of trade offs- just like Warwolf vs Timber, its rock/paper/scissors.

With the weight most Grands spend on JJ, I think they get the edge on maps they use . . . but unless I missed something, its not using any of the new (post Jihad) structural components just spending the weight a bit more efficiently than the original Summoner.

The original Summoner didn't use Endo-Steel.  Between that and non-fixed Jump Jets, the Grand Summoner has eight more tons of pod space than the original Summoner (and half a ton more armor, presumably to make the traditional LRM-15 play nicer with pod space), for a three tons more than the Timber Wolf, and two tons overall more payload when fixed heat sinks are compared (15 for Timber Wolf, 14 for Grand Summoner).

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, I was not sure if it added ES or FF- thought one, but it did not have XXLs, XL Gyro, Endo-Composite or Ferro Lam.

I would still take a Timber Wolf over a Grand, partly b/c being a Wolf, I do not want to give weight to JJ, and finally familiarity with configs & firing patterns.  But I would not take defeating a Grand like I would a regular Summoner for granted.  Its really too bad the configs did not take more advantage of advances in weapons, otherwise it could have been a design Marthe trotted out after being made Khan as part of her revitalization like the Cougar.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

There are Thor II configurations that don't mount jump jets.

[Scotty]

There are Thor II configurations that don't mount jump jets.

The B and C, in particular.  The B shoots a lot of missiles, the C is a double Large Pulse + UAC/20 monstrosity with a couple secondary guns besides.  Both of them are nasty customers, even if I think the B could be improved by streamlining launchers.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Between the B and the A, it's like the mech had a contractual obligation to not have missile racks of the same size.

[Empyrus]

Between the B and the A, it's like the mech had a contractual obligation to not have missile racks of the same size.

The configs do come from MWDA Dossiers so you're sorta correct actually...

[Colt Ward]

There are Thor II configurations that don't mount jump jets.

Sure, and there are Timbers that do . . . but my point was the Timber vs regular Summoner, not Grand.  I will always take pod-able JJ over fixed like the Cougar, Night Gyr, Turkina, etc.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Cougars don't have fixed jump jets.

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, what I get for a toddler squirming as I type- I was thinking of the Turkina fluff of fixed JJ.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Calling the Timber Wolves hand built is a misnomer . . . they are hand assembled, no one is handbuilding the 300XL that goes into the design.  Also consider the Wolves have 2 other 75t mechs in their production lines and they would have a large stock of Timber Wolves post Invasion . . . less after the Jihad of course.  The Warwolf is going to use the same gyro, engine and actuators- the Tundra Wolf will use the same gyro and actuators.  Offhand IIRC the Dire Wolves would use the same engine too.

Instead of being automated production lines like modern car factories, you are looking at something like the WWII bomber aseembly lines . . . and that throw away line has probably been causing TPTB heartburn for years b/c of some players insistence.

Timber Wolves use a 375 XL.  Dire Wolves use a 300 XL (which they do share with 4/6 75 tonners like the Night Gyr).