How long do mechs last in Alpha Strike?

[Vandervecken]

Hi folks,
A simple question:  How much faster do mechs get destroyed in Alpha Strike vs CBT?
The game appears to be set up so that the turns match 1-for-1, i.e. 1 Alpha Strike turn is equivalent to 1 CBT turn).  However, in my experience, even with variable damage (and certainly without it) Mechs die faster in AS than in CBT.
Is this true?  If a simulation of this has been done before, I can't find it.
Take a simple case:  Two Thunderbolts (or Wasps, or Wolverines, or Battlemasters, or any other typical Mechs) are circling each other on simple terrain, with some woods.  How many turns on average does it take before one Mech is rendered Crippled (subject to Forced Withdrawal)?  What about for Mech destruction?

Does anyone have any data here?

Cheers,
Vandervecken

[nckestrel]

Note that while weapon damage is divided by 10, armor is divided by 30.  Movement speed is similar to "classic" BattleTech, but damage is three times as much.  Variable damage will lower AS damage by a third, but that still leaves it as twice as fast?  (unless my brain melted trying to do percentages..)

[Vandervecken]

Note that while weapon damage is divided by 10, armor is divided by 30.  Movement speed is similar to "classic" BattleTech, but damage is three times as much.  Variable damage will lower AS damage by a third, but that still leaves it as twice as fast?  (unless my brain melted trying to do percentages..)

This is true, but you don't need to remove every point of armor & Structure on a Mech to render it combat-ineffective.
A good test question for multiple-simulation would be this:
When a Mech is remdered combat-ineffective by a typical mix of weaponry, what percentage of its Armor/Structure remains intact?

[Scotty]

Irrelevant.  Alpha Strike doesn't simulate that exactly, because the goal is not to simulate that exactly.  Turns in Alpha Strike, as nckestrel said, are 30 seconds.  Weapons are counted as doing 10% of their normal damage (modified by minimum range and to-hit mods intrinsic to the weapon), while armor is counted as 1/30th of its normal amount.  The end result is that you will typically do triple the damage relative to the number of dice rolls (if not more because attacks in AS are all-or-nothing), or twice the damage if you use variable damage as an optional rule.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

AS turns are not assumed to be the same unit of time as a CBT turn.  This is part of the reason there are no rules about firing rates in CBT making it into AS (like field guns needing to be stationary to shoot, or TSEMPs only being allowed to fire every other round, and so on)

This compression is a large part of what allows games of a larger scale than CBT still be finishes as fast or faster than a game of CBT.

A rule of thumb for gauging firepower and resiliency is 3 points of damage (from the "Thud Test").  The way I use that rule of thumb is a mech can expect to survive being "Thudded" however many times its armor and structure can be divided by 3.  A 3/3 unit, can only survive being "Thudded" once.  Therefore, I shouldn't expect it to survive in a placement where it is likely to be hit twice or more by units with an "average" amount of firepower. 

It's been my experience that the Variable Damage rule actually goes a very long way towards prolonging unit survival.  Not only is it a 2/3 nerf to damage, it can be streaky (8 dice do 1 damage! yay!)  Furthermore, the nerf is compounded in cumulative effect because of the way AS does away with the "blind" target designation that CBT uses (In AS you know what the damage will be before you have to declare the next unit's target.... this factor alone makes for brutal efficiency in killing in AS in comparison to CBT)  With variable damage, units that survive what they "should" have died end up drawing more fire that would have otherwise been applied to fresh targets without the Variable Damage rule.

Ninjad:  Very much what Scotty said.  AS isn't a translation of CBT.  It's meant to be marginally compatible, but ultimately they are separate rule systems that exist to provide a BattleTech experience in separate formats.

[Fear Factory]

I spend more time playing Introtech Lance vs Lance, if anything.  Based off of the amount of games I played, I think 'Mechs do last the longest and last about as long as they should considering the scale of the game.

This game is not a translation of CBT and it shouldn't be (which has been said).  The experience still has that CBT feel, though.

[Vandervecken]

The reason this is important is that it's very helpful when translating scenarios from CBt to Alpha Strike.  In particular, how many turns to wait before reinforcements arrive.  That turn count can make game balance vary greatly.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

I don't know that there is a universal ratio that would work for translating CBT scenarios into AS.  But 3:1 CBT turn to AS turn is probably a good place to start.  Scenarios can be contextually tuned for balance from there on a case by case basis.

[Scotty]

It also depends on what the reinforcements are for.  Movement is (relatively) unchanged between TW and AS, which means that you're taking more damage per unit of movement on average.

[worktroll]

You probably also need to take into consideration how long it'll take for the opposing forces to make contact.

Say the board game took 4 turns before most units were in combat, and 8 turns for things to reach a decisive point. The scenario would then run for 12-14 turns, the turn limit potentially discouraging "camping".

Depending on the size of your AS play area, it may take similar - or less - time to close, and then faster combat outcomes. So the same AS scenario might allow 2-3 turns for engagement, and 3-4 turns for combat - a shorter 6-8 turns, but not a simple 1/3 of the original TW 12-14 turn limit.

Maybe a simple 50% of the TW turn limit?

W.

[Weirdo]

Another thing to consider, is that while sprinting rules do exist, by and large, units in AS cannot run. As a result, units in AS will take longer to cross the same mapsheet as they would in TW. I had this issue myself recently, when we tried to run the Homecoming scenario from the NWH book, and we find it extremely difficult to get out of the canyon before the Kuritan forces got to perfect cover, so the entire Highlander force got slaughtered. If we try it again, I definitely plan to see if sprinting will change anything.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

OTOH, effective weapon ranges in AS cover much more of the playing area than in CBT.  A mech with a Medium range damage value can range most everything on a 6' x 4' table from the center of the board.  A mech armed with medium lasers and SRMs in CBT won't be able to do anything close to the sort in most scenarios.

Those differences in pure straight-away-speed and weapon ranges might cancel each other out in a wash, but in some combinations it might not.  They'd have to be thought about in translating scenarios.

[Vandervecken]

I don't have to worry about distance because I use mapsheets for Alpha Strike.  it bothers me that range in Alpha Strike means that fights start uch closer in.

[Weirdo]

I use hex maps as well, and in my experience, TDC's comments about things with medium range gaining a lot in this system apply there as well. Hunchbacks and Atlases are a lot nastier when the bulk of their firepower starts hitting reliably at twelve hexes instead of six.

[Scotty]

That's another point of major difference between Alpha Strike and standard BT.  'Mechs whose primary armaments are medium or short range will always be shooting at medium or short range.  A Medium Laser in standard BT has issue hitting outside of 6 hexes.  A Medium Laser in Alpha Strike hits pretty reliably out to 12!  This has the effect of making movement less strategically vital in terms of complex single hex movements to align optimum range bands between multiple weapons, and more vital in terms of edging just inside or outside of a given range bracket (and therefore making higher speed less individually important for medium range combatants, but more strategically limiting in terms of escaping engagements).