Combined arms, the Word of Blake way

[worktroll]

Okay, it'll be some time before we get our Combat Manual: Toaster Worshippers ( O0 ), and I'm playing with force building for the glory of Jerome Blake.

Yes, ASC contains a rule for Choirs - six OmniMechs, six squads BA. But The WoB is known as masters of combined arms within the lance/platoon structure - ie. the Level II. It's quite common to have some 'Mechs, some vees and some BA all in the same Level II.

Unfortunately the current ASC doesn't make it easy to build Level IIs, even swiping the "demicompany" tweak from CM:Mercs.

There's always the "Ideal Role" back-door. So I can for instance build a Level II consisting of two Vanquishers, two Palmonis, and two Tengus, for example. We miss on the "normal" assault requirements for size and minimum armour, but as they're all Juggernauts, it all works.

The problem comes when using more common WoB battle armour, or even infantry, most of whom are "Ambushers". So for example if I used Phalanxes instead of Tengus, it stops being an assault lance.

Would it be sensible/appropriate/workable to use something like the following, until CM:WoB comes out:

When determining force building, when a unit is carried fully by another unit (eg. MEC units with assigned OmniMech in the unit, XMEC units with assigned 'Mech, or units with CAR with assigned units with sufficient IT capacity), ignore the carried unit.

W.

[Alexander Knight]

Makes sense to me.

[worktroll]

It's just extending the Nova concept to include units carried inside, not just metal suits stuck on the outside.

Now for the silly suggestion - would you let a unit with IT5+ carry a Savannah Master inside? (Tiny) Tank Drop! :D

[Alexander Knight]

It's just extending the Nova concept to include units carried inside, not just metal suits stuck on the outside.

Now for the silly suggestion - would you let a unit with IT5+ carry a Savannah Master inside? (Tiny) Tank Drop! :D

Sadly no.  For one thing, IT is Infantry Transport, and a Savannah Master is a CV. :)

[Weirdo]

I like it!

Another thought: WoB and Comstar may choose to ignore any requirement that vehicles be deployed in matched pairs.

[JadedFalcon]

When determining force building, when a unit is carried fully by another unit (eg. MEC units with assigned OmniMech in the unit, XMEC units with assigned 'Mech, or units with CAR with assigned units with sufficient IT capacity), ignore the carried unit.

The CM:Mercs goes this route with both Armor and Mechanized Infantry (pg.80) but this adds units to the count. So if you're adapting that, then your BA or infantry would not count towards the 6 units that form the Level II. Perhaps BA in Assault formations should be a rarity or included as add-ons? Recon formations often aren't much better at this problem.

One of the reasons I'm not a big fan of things like Novas and Choirs, is that the hitchhiking BA don't get SPAs. Whereas if the BA can form their own Support formation, Light Battle formation, or other, then you're not losing as much. I'm hoping Novas, Choirs, and Augmented Lances get revisited at some point. The current implementation isn't bad, but they benefit as much as they could as separate formations.

So if you're BA are exempt from the requirements of the formation, then they should not gain the benefits.

In a future supplement, I'm hoping we get a formation that makes use of Ambushers, for everyone who's a fan of infantry or Urbanmechs.

[ConstableBrew]

Am I the only one that designs companies with homogenous lance formations, but when deploying and using them I completely disregard the designated lances and use them in groups that combine one or two units from each of the official formations?

[ConstableBrew]

Sadly no.  For one thing, IT is Infantry Transport, and a Savannah Master is a CV. :)

Just convert the IT# to CT#.

[worktroll]

So if you're adapting that, then your BA or infantry would not count towards the 6 units that form the Level II. Perhaps BA in Assault formations should be a rarity or included as add-ons? Recon formations often aren't much better at this problem.

Not the intent - they should still count towards the 6 units in a Level II. But conditions - like minimum movement, armour, etc - should'nt be applied to carried infantry units. So the two Vanquisher, two Palmoni, two Tengu unit is an assault formation because the rules about size, damage, armour etc get applied to the four non-carried units.

Makes more sense now?

[Weirdo]

Just convert the IT# to CT#.

Still can't. Well, you can, but if you want to deploy it in battle, it has to be loaded in VT, not CT or IT.

[JadedFalcon]

Not the intent - they should still count towards the 6 units in a Level II. But conditions - like minimum movement, armour, etc - should'nt be applied to carried infantry units. So the two Vanquisher, two Palmoni, two Tengu unit is an assault formation because the rules about size, damage, armour etc get applied to the four non-carried units.

Makes more sense now?

I get what you're saying. Being Juggernauts, the Tengu work just fine in an Assault formation. But I'm not sure I buy the idea of tossing any BA or infantry unit in and have them count as part of the force building req's for numbers but not anything else. Should three Lightrays carrying three squads of Magnetic Longinus suits be a Striker formation? Seems like it goes against the intentions of force building. But three Lightrays and three BA squads form a Medium Battle Level II just fine.

That said, I'd don't see a problem if there is a particular Comstar or Word of Blake sub-command with special rules for a Level III or Level IV that mixes their infantry and BA in all their formations. But they'd be the exception, which makes their rule special.

[mdauben]

This is an interesting discussion, and with a wider relevence than WoB.  I'm currently in the early stages of building a c.3145 version of House Hiritsu.  By that time period, the Warrior Houses were using augmented lances, companies and battalions.  Such things are simple enough to build under the normal battletech rules, but I was puzzling how to do them if I wanted to field the unit in AS.

The standard composition for a Warrior House in this time period is two Augmented Battalions, one heavy and one light.  The heavy battalion is supposed to be made up of augmented lances of four mechs and two BA squads, while the light battalion is augmented lances of four BA squads and two mechs. 

My current TOE for the heavy Battalion is basically four heavy mechs and two Fa Shih BA squads.  Since the Fa Shih can be equipped with magnets, they can ride non-omnimechs so Worktroll's idea will work with them.  What about the light lances, though?  Those are currently made up of light mechs and Ying Long BA squads, which don't have the option of the magnets so they can't ride and even if they could there's not enough mechs to go around.

Other than just ignoring the AS lance construction rules, how could I handle these light agumented lances? 

[nckestrel]

I though the augmented lances were after seeing Clan Novas? (FM:CC p36).  Is there something saying the Warrior Houses were using them earlier?

[Karasu]

In a future supplement, I'm hoping we get a formation that makes use of Ambushers, for everyone who's a fan of infantry or Urbanmechs.

I'm going to put my money on CM: Liao for that.  Which is a pity, since I've had success previously in battletech with massed UrbanMechs.  When I can buy a battery of 8 AC/10s, the enemy can't really afford anything that can survive a volley of 8 AC/10s  ;D

[Tai Dai Cultist]

I though the augmented lances were after seeing Clan Novas? (FM:CC p36).  Is there something saying the Warrior Houses were using them earlier?

They were using battlemechs as APCs for their infantry before anyone even heard of the Clans.  Honestly, when CM: Liao comes out the Warrior House infantry should get XMEC even in the Succession Wars era.  (IIRC it's the Loren Coleman novels that describe how foot infantry rode on battlemechs... telescoping rods with a loop to fit one's foot into on one end, and a magical sticky/magnetic pad on the other to apply to the hull of the friendly mech!)

Now that's not exactly the same thing as having had augmented lances, granted.  But if the warrior house infantry were riding around on battlemechs, and APCs and infantry can be combined into an organic unit elsewhere in AS, it stands to reason the Warrior Houses could do so as well.

The same should go for ComStar/WoB.

[GoldBishop]

I've been making my Novas out to be 2 distinct formations... and now I'm wondering if I've been doing it wrong.

Regardless of the base Omni formation (Command, Sniper, Fire Support, Pursuit, etc), I've taken a star of Gnomes and called them "Assault Star" because of their "Ideal Role" [juggernaut], and the same goes for my InnerSphere Kage-lance (err, platoons?) as "Recon" [Scout].

For any augmented Level IIs out there (say, mid-campaign when fewer mechs/vehicles can form isolated formations?), I believe the "ideal role" should still be allowed.  The fact that two BA can be transported on any of the other 4 units (Omni/MEC, or XMEC respectively) is tactically superior IMO: smaller formation profile might lull an unknowing opponent into thinking they're facing 4 units when they're actually facing 6.  (my Novas do this all the time when ASF attempts to strike a lone target).

In a future supplement, I'm hoping we get a formation that makes use of Ambushers, for everyone who's a fan of infantry or Urbanmechs.

...and Hunchback IICs and protomechs and SRM carriers ;)

Already homebrewed in my group, though I've labeled it "Expert Lance" formations with three primary variations/monikers ...but that's off-topic.

[Ascension]

I'm currently in the early stages of building a c.3045 version of House Hiritsu.

[...]

My current TOE for the heavy Battalion is basically four heavy mechs and two Fa Shih BA squads.  Since the Fa Shih can be equipped with magnets, they can ride non-omnimechs so Worktroll's idea will work with them.  What about the light lances, though?  Those are currently made up of light mechs and Ying Long BA squads, which don't have the option of the magnets so they can't ride and even if they could there's not enough mechs to go around.

The MUL lists the intro date of the Fa Shih as 3062 and the intro date of the Ying Long as 3065... did you mean to say 3065 rather than 3045?

[mdauben]

I though the augmented lances were after seeing Clan Novas? (FM:CC p36).  Is there something saying the Warrior Houses were using them earlier?

No, its a typo.  I meant 3145, not 3045!   :-[

The change in the unit organization is first mentioned in Field Manual 3145.