Author Topic: My AC Tweaks  (Read 6466 times)

PreacherPatriot1776

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My AC Tweaks
« on: 05 July 2018, 18:26:21 »
From day one the ACs have been out of whack along with the rest of the weapons. There needs to be a redoing of all the weapons to make them consistent. One way for doing that with ACs is by caliber and dropping the AC/2 etc designation.

Ranges are switched with the smaller calibers having shorter distance due to less powder in the shells with the inverse of heavier rounds have more powder. The more powder =/= longer the range. Whether you can actually hit is another story.

I also removed all the minimum ranges since it was silly to have them to begin with.

Quote
AC/2.5=30mm: 4 damage

AC/5=60mm: 8 Damage

AC/10=120mm: 16 Damage

AC/20=200mm: 24 Damage

30mm range: S: 1-3, M: 4-6, L: 7-9

60mm range: S: 1-5, M: 6-10, L:11-15

120mm range: S: 1-6, M: 7-12, L: 13-18

200mm range: S: 1-8, M: 9-16, L: 17-24
Hits are resolve as Cluster Hits in 4 point blocks.

Rotary and Ultra ACs add an additional to hit modifiers based upon their fire rate.

x2: Normal to hit rolls

x4: S: +1, M: +2, L: +3

x6: S: +2, M: +4, L: +6

Chance of jamming remains the same along with everything else.

LBX ACs will have to be adjusted similarly, but it's a smooth bore weapon like a shotgun. All of the calibers should be share the same max range. The difference is that at max range the shots have spread so far apart that it's impossible to hit with them. I'd suggest decreasing rounds hit by 1/2 beginning at medium range and 3/4 at long range.

Weapon tonnages, ammo, crit slots, et al.. are all unchanged.

Just my .02 c-bills.

Ruger

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Re: My AC Tweaks
« Reply #1 on: 05 July 2018, 18:42:10 »
There would be even less of a reason to take the smaller autocannons if you nerf the ranges like that.

As to why the ranges are as they are, I've always like the reasoning that it's due to recoil...the smaller lighter cannons can damage out further because they are firing fewer, smaller rounds, and its easier to keep the entire burst on target at longer ranges. The larger ones fire either larger bursts in the same amount of time, or similar sized bursts of heavier ammunition (or a combination of both), and therefore the recoil is harder to control on these weapons. As it's harder to control, the range at which your weapon is effective is far less.

Does this explanation completely answer why the autocannon stats are as they are? No, but it helps it make a bit more sense, at least to me...

Note: Don't get me wrong, the lighter AC's could use something to make them more competitive, but what you have here would make the gauss rifle obsolete in many ways in comparison to your two larger autocannons...

Ruger
« Last Edit: 05 July 2018, 18:48:09 by Ruger »
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PreacherPatriot1776

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Re: My AC Tweaks
« Reply #2 on: 05 July 2018, 18:49:18 »
There would be even less of a reason to take the smaller autocannons if you nerf the ranges like that.

As to why the ranges are as they are, I've always like the reasoning that it's due to recoil...the smaller lighter cannons can damage out further because they are firing fewer, smaller rounds, and its easier to keep the entire burst on target at longer ranges. The larger ones fire either larger bursts in the same amount of time, or similar sized bursts of heavier ammunition (or a combination of both), and therefore the recoil is harder to control on these weapons. As it's harder to control, the range at which your weapon is effective is far less.

Does this explanation completely answer why the autocannon stats are as they are? No, but it helps it make a bit more sense, at least to me...

Note: Don't get me wrong, the lighter AC's could use something to make them more competitive, but what you have here would make the gauss rifle obsolete in many ways in comparison to your two larger autocannons...

Ruger

You didn't read the rules in full then because in no way do the changes compete with the gauss or remove its advantage as a long range single shot weapon.

You are comparing an apple to a potato.

mchapman1970

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Re: My AC Tweaks
« Reply #3 on: 05 July 2018, 18:52:56 »
There would be even less of a reason to take the smaller autocannons if you nerf the ranges like that.




People actually use the AC/2?????  Why do they just want to slap a person with one finger (AC2)  when they can use a whole hand with wrist action (AC20)   hehe     joking

Ruger

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Re: My AC Tweaks
« Reply #4 on: 05 July 2018, 19:11:47 »
You didn't read the rules in full then because in no way do the changes compete with the gauss or remove its advantage as a long range single shot weapon.

You are comparing an apple to a potato.

Ah, you refer to the do damage in 4 pt blocks? Then they would seem to compare even more poorly vs. LRM's...

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PreacherPatriot1776

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Re: My AC Tweaks
« Reply #5 on: 05 July 2018, 19:18:59 »
Ah, you refer to the do damage in 4 pt blocks? Then they would seem to compare even more poorly vs. LRM's...

Ruger

Again comparing apples to potatoes.

Ruger

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Re: My AC Tweaks
« Reply #6 on: 05 July 2018, 19:42:13 »
Again comparing apples to potatoes.

One is ballistic. The other is a missile. From that aspect, you are correct...

Let's look at it another way...currently, the ac-2 is the longest range weapon in an introtech game...that, heat and its large ammo count are about its only benefits in comparison to a LRM-5, which reaches almost as far for only 1 more heat and for an average of half again as much damage for one third the weight...

Now let's double the ac's damage but drop the range by almost a third...why would I use this weapon now? And that's without factoring in the medium laser...

Similarly, your ac-5 does not compare well to LRM-10's or LRM-15's...

The larger versions of your ac's are better, but really are kind of a toss up vs lrm's at that point...but I could see using them...

Ruger
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PreacherPatriot1776

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Re: My AC Tweaks
« Reply #7 on: 05 July 2018, 19:45:39 »
One is ballistic. The other is a missile. From that aspect, you are correct...

Let's look at it another way...currently, the ac-2 is the longest range weapon in an introtech game...that, heat and its large ammo count are about its only benefits in comparison to a LRM-5, which reaches almost as far for only 1 more heat and for an average of half again as much damage for one third the weight...

Now let's double the ac's damage but drop the range by almost a third...why would I use this weapon now? And that's without factoring in the medium laser...

Similarly, your ac-5 does not compare well to LRM-10's or LRM-15's...

The larger versions of your ac's are better, but really are kind of a toss up vs lrm's at that point...but I could see using them...

Ruger

Again comparing apples to potatoes. Where did I put indirect onto the ACs? My ACs do not compete with other weapon systems just like the current ACs don't compete. The most heard complaint about ACs is that they are under-powered and don't make sense. How about you spend time comparing apples to apples i.e. my redone ACs vs current game ACs?

Ruger

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Re: My AC Tweaks
« Reply #8 on: 05 July 2018, 20:04:32 »
What is the benefit of your ac-2 in comparison to the current ac-2? You do twice the damage at almost one third the range.

Your ac-5 is now basically an UAC-5 with a lot less range...

Your ac-10 is basically a more ammo efficient uac-10 that splits its damage over 4 hit locations in lieu of 2 and always hits with the extra shot if the first hits...

Your ac-20 is basically a silver bullet gauss rifle except it hits harder at longer ranges for less weight at a cost of a bit more space, a little less ammo per ton and a bit more heat...

Ruger
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Atarlost

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Re: My AC Tweaks
« Reply #9 on: 05 July 2018, 20:12:37 »
Again comparing apples to potatoes. Where did I put indirect onto the ACs? My ACs do not compete with other weapon systems just like the current ACs don't compete. The most heard complaint about ACs is that they are under-powered and don't make sense. How about you spend time comparing apples to apples i.e. my redone ACs vs current game ACs?

Weapons can only be good or bad in comparison to the other options.  Comparing your ACs to the current ACs is meaningless because if your ACs existed the current ACs would not. 

Your AC-4 is utterly and completely worthless.  It is strictly inferior to the medium laser. 

Your AC-8 is a failure at the one thing the AC-5 is good at because 4 clusters are less advantageous against ASFs than 5 clusters and because it lacks the range to provide an adequate AA umbrella.  It no longer outranges the Large Laser, denying it even the pretense of a non-AA niche. 

These are the ACs that needed help, and you have utterly ruined them. 

Your AC-16 is overpowered as a crit seeker.  The AC-10 was marginal, but can be used profitably even on heat tracking units.

Your AC-24 is simultaneously preposterously overpowered and horrible at everything the AC-20 was once good at.  Without the cluster roll 24 damage is as much damage as 20 tons of LRM launchers for 14 tons and with greater range, but lacking concentrated damage it loses its value as a brawling weapon. 

Any autocannon fix must respect the relative ranges and roles of the weapons which every single unit in Battletech is designed around or it's going nowhere. 

PreacherPatriot1776

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Re: My AC Tweaks
« Reply #10 on: 05 July 2018, 20:17:18 »
What is the benefit of your ac-2 in comparison to the current ac-2? You do twice the damage at almost one third the range.

Your ac-5 is now basically an UAC-5 with a lot less range...

Your ac-10 is basically a more ammo efficient uac-10 that splits its damage over 4 hit locations in lieu of 2 and always hits with the extra shot if the first hits...

Your ac-20 is basically a silver bullet gauss rifle except it hits harder at longer ranges for less weight at a cost of a bit more space, a little less ammo per ton and a bit more heat...

Ruger

I don't have AC/2, AC/5, AC/10, or even AC/20. I do have 30, 60, 120, and 200mm ACs.

AC/2s never were for use against mechs. They were always used for infantry going all the way back to BattleTroops when infantry was first introduced.

Umm no, the 60mm AC functions as a 60mm AC. The Ultra 60mm AC would do 16 damage split into 4x4 point groups with a chance of a jam. The 60mm AC does only 8 damage split into 2x4 point groups. So it's not "just like" it's a different weapon that is improved. As for your complaint about the range, I gave a valid reason why the smaller calibers have less range. Did you not see it?

No, my 120mm AC is 16 damage split into 4x4 point hit locations. It is equal to the Ultra 60mm AC as is the current UAC/5 is equal to the AC/10. I followed the same convention as the current ACs in regards to UAC/RAC. There is no extra shot if the first hits in my rules. I have no idea where you got that from.

Tell me how does a 24 point damage split into 6x4 point locations compare to a Gauss Rifle (or any of its successors)that hits a single location with 15+ damage? It doesn't which means that you just did an invalid comparison logical fallacy. The 200mm AC is its own weapon and I believe to be a solid improvement over the current weapon.

Like I said compare apples to apples and leave the other weapons out of this. It has no place in this discussion.

Weapons can only be good or bad in comparison to the other options.  Comparing your ACs to the current ACs is meaningless because if your ACs existed the current ACs would not. 

Your AC-4 is utterly and completely worthless.  It is strictly inferior to the medium laser. 

Your AC-8 is a failure at the one thing the AC-5 is good at because 4 clusters are less advantageous against ASFs than 5 clusters and because it lacks the range to provide an adequate AA umbrella.  It no longer outranges the Large Laser, denying it even the pretense of a non-AA niche. 

These are the ACs that needed help, and you have utterly ruined them. 

Your AC-16 is overpowered as a crit seeker.  The AC-10 was marginal, but can be used profitably even on heat tracking units.

Your AC-24 is simultaneously preposterously overpowered and horrible at everything the AC-20 was once good at.  Without the cluster roll 24 damage is as much damage as 20 tons of LRM launchers for 14 tons and with greater range, but lacking concentrated damage it loses its value as a brawling weapon. 

Any autocannon fix must respect the relative ranges and roles of the weapons which every single unit in Battletech is designed around or it's going nowhere.

There we go again with the invalid comparison logical fallacy. The medium laser never was balanced and the entire let's balance the game's other weapons is an abject failure. See current weapon's balance or lack there of.

That's your opinion which isn't supported by facts.

I never designed these to be crit seekers. I designed them to follow the lore of the game. I also don't have an AC/16. In fact, I clearly stated that they were all redesignated, so I don't know whose weapons you are talking about.
« Last Edit: 05 July 2018, 20:27:01 by PreacherPatriot1776 »

Papabees

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Re: My AC Tweaks
« Reply #11 on: 05 July 2018, 20:31:05 »
While I appreciate the idea of tweaking ACs to make them feel "different" adding more cluster weapons is something I'd run from. I simply add two damage to the 2-10 and call it a day.

Ruger

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Re: My AC Tweaks
« Reply #12 on: 05 July 2018, 20:36:00 »
While I appreciate the idea of tweaking ACs to make them feel "different" adding more cluster weapons is something I'd run from. I simply add two damage to the 2-10 and call it a day.

I will simply say I agree with this statement for the most part and bow out of any continuation of this discussion rather than talk in more circles...

Ruger
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Atarlost

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Re: My AC Tweaks
« Reply #13 on: 05 July 2018, 21:37:33 »
There we go again with the invalid comparison logical fallacy. The medium laser never was balanced and the entire let's balance the game's other weapons is an abject failure. See current weapon's balance or lack there of.

Unless you propose to delete every single other weapon from the game you are the one promulgating a fallacy.  A weapon's place in the game can only be examined in the context of the other weapons that could be used instead. 

PreacherPatriot1776

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Re: My AC Tweaks
« Reply #14 on: 05 July 2018, 21:41:56 »
Unless you propose to delete every single other weapon from the game you are the one promulgating a fallacy.  A weapon's place in the game can only be examined in the context of the other weapons that could be used instead.

Incorrect since an LRM is not an AC, a laser is a not a gauss rifle, etc.. You need to look at the weapon on its own merits since an AC is just an AC not the other weapons listed. The changes are to the AC weapons and are focused solely on that niche in the weapon's table. This is why I kept telling Ruger that he was comparing apples to potatoes. So far, every time I've presented these tweaks I do not get a discussion on the comparison between the ACs as they stand and the revised ones. I get exactly what you and Ruger have posted which is to compare it to every other weapon system and ignore the rules as presented.

I stated the changes to the ACs quite well and explained why they were changed. First complaint about ACs, AC/2 doesn't do enough damage. Okay, boost the damage, but logic says that a smaller caliber weapon has less range. Since we're fixing this weapon system based upon our knowledge of firearms that smaller caliber weapons have less range due to less powder. I'm repeating myself here.

Now that we've done the popular thing of doubling AC/2 damage why not bring the rest of the ACs into line logically. Hence why I discarded the current designations and went with caliber in keeping with the logic. Instead of firing one round as currently stated, you are now firing multiple rounds as per the fluff. Not all those rounds are going to hit the same spot as this is physics. Thus, you roll on the cluster hits table. This is keeping with the fluff saying that ACs are monster sized MGs. MGs put a lot of rounds downrange.

So did I improve ACs based upon the common complaints? Yes, I boosted the damage all across the board while giving a linear damage progression based upon caliber. I also increased range based upon the simple fact that more powder in the charge =/= longer effective range. This is why a 5.56mm NATO round doesn't travel 20 miles like a 155mm howitzer shell does. This is why the current 30mm round has 1/5th of the current effective range that the 155mm round does. That is due to powder charge.

The changes I made were to ensure that the weapons themselves were balanced against other weapons. It is an improved version of the current ACs and differentiates it from single shot weapons like the Gauss Rifle series. It also is different from missile weapons in that it doesn't have Artemis FCS or indirect fire. The only weapon that it is like is a pulse laser. Now that would be a valid comparison, but only if you split the damage up to hit separate locations.

So let's talk solely about the changes in relation to the weapons that were changed. That is the only way to balance them not pretending that they're identical to LRMs.
« Last Edit: 05 July 2018, 22:10:39 by PreacherPatriot1776 »

abou

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Re: My AC Tweaks
« Reply #15 on: 05 July 2018, 22:28:39 »
But you have to compare them to other weapons: that's the meta of the game. ACs were considered lackluster in how they compared to energy weapons. If you change how ACs function -- even if you think you have made them better -- the question is how do they compare to their nearest equivalent.

Early BattleTech weapons do damage either to one location or clusters. You can't really do something different with ACs from either of those two. Therefore, this new profile will be compared to LRMs whether you like it or not. Because without that there is no discussion.

PreacherPatriot1776

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Re: My AC Tweaks
« Reply #16 on: 05 July 2018, 22:33:47 »
But you have to compare them to other weapons: that's the meta of the game. ACs were considered lackluster in how they compared to energy weapons. If you change how ACs function -- even if you think you have made them better -- the question is how do they compare to their nearest equivalent.

Early BattleTech weapons do damage either to one location or clusters. You can't really do something different with ACs from either of those two. Therefore, this new profile will be compared to LRMs whether you like it or not. Because without that there is no discussion.

I see that you didn't read my rules and posted anyway. I didn't do anything different from the existing methods of all one location or clusters. I have one AC that already does cluster hits and that is the LBX. Why isn't there a comparison to it?

Do my ACs have indirect fire capability? Do they have the ability to use Artemis FCS? Can you use a spotter with them? See that's the problem when you get tunnel vision and only zero in on one thing, which is the cluster table. I don't see people comparing the LBX to LRMs do you?

abou

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Re: My AC Tweaks
« Reply #17 on: 05 July 2018, 22:37:08 »
Quote
Hits are resolve as Cluster Hits in 4 point blocks.

Then are you saying that for your "AC/16", you roll on the 4 cluster hits row for how many hit, but all of them hit the same location? So for 3 hits, that single location takes 12 points of damage.

Because you didn't really make that clear in the first post.

PreacherPatriot1776

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Re: My AC Tweaks
« Reply #18 on: 05 July 2018, 22:51:55 »
Then are you saying that for your "AC/16", you roll on the 4 cluster hits row for how many hit, but all of them hit the same location? So for 3 hits, that single location takes 12 points of damage.

Because you didn't really make that clear in the first post.

I don't see an AC/16 listed. I do see a 120mm AC listed.

I used the exact same language that appears for Rapid-Fire weapons on page 120 of TW except modified the amount of damage as 4 point groups. Damage is assigned based upon their grouping on the Weapons and Equipment Table. The rule was already published and was used for the changed ACs to fit the fact that they are rapid-fire weapons now.

This rule followed the original rule that appeared in 1984 for LRMs.

I shouldn't really needed to explain it as the rule is already pre-existing. The Cluster Hits Table goes from 2-40 on page 116 of TW. You cross reference the damage of 4, 8, 16, and 24 to see how much damage actually hit.

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Re: My AC Tweaks
« Reply #19 on: 05 July 2018, 22:52:48 »
Meh.  I prefer my own; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8hlj4EbdsE

It uses the mass of the barrel and a single ton of ammo, plus only a couple crits.  Uses any ammo (in a set order), fires at Ultra/RAC rates, TH modifier for excessive recoil, blah, blah, blah.  I don't even dig out the stat block anymore, there's a new "ACs are garbage"-thread every couple months.
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abou

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Re: My AC Tweaks
« Reply #20 on: 05 July 2018, 23:10:33 »
Look, man, I'm trying to be nice about this. I really am.

So I wrote AC/16 instead of AC/120mm... no one really cares. It does a potential total of 16 points of damage. If you want to be that pedantic about it, whatever. But these aren't "tweaks". This is basically new stuff.

If you want to know what I think, I just don't like it. I don't think it improves on the previous stats and whether you like it or not, these new stats don't perform well compared to other counterparts in game of either missile or laser types. If you want to make an effective choice of cannon weapons that do something different, you would need to come up with something else instead of reworking autocannons.

For the tonnages that exist for these weapons, telling me that an AC/30mm only reaches 9 hexes and does a possible 4 points of damage and weighs 6 tons... why? I will take a medium laser every time. Doesn't matter what your reasoning is. Don't matter what rhetorical shield you put up.

60mm, I'll take a large laser instead.

120mm, LRM-15 thank you. Plus I get indirect fire. I don't care if this does something different.

200mm... maybe. Or I might just as happy with two LRM-15s or even two LRM-10s. But this seems ridiculously overpowered.

If you introduced weapons with less tonnage, you might be on to something. But with this, it isn't for me. The changes to the meta don't make them worthwhile on paper.  Maybe in-game if you have data on how they played. However, you would be negating several designs and their roles just so they could carry a heavier, less effective weapon.

PreacherPatriot1776

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Re: My AC Tweaks
« Reply #21 on: 05 July 2018, 23:43:52 »
Look, man, I'm trying to be nice about this. I really am.

So I wrote AC/16 instead of AC/120mm... no one really cares. It does a potential total of 16 points of damage. If you want to be that pedantic about it, whatever. But these aren't "tweaks". This is basically new stuff.

If you want to know what I think, I just don't like it. I don't think it improves on the previous stats and whether you like it or not, these new stats don't perform well compared to other counterparts in game of either missile or laser types. If you want to make an effective choice of cannon weapons that do something different, you would need to come up with something else instead of reworking autocannons.

For the tonnages that exist for these weapons, telling me that an AC/30mm only reaches 9 hexes and does a possible 4 points of damage and weighs 6 tons... why? I will take a medium laser every time. Doesn't matter what your reasoning is. Don't matter what rhetorical shield you put up.

60mm, I'll take a large laser instead.

120mm, LRM-15 thank you. Plus I get indirect fire. I don't care if this does something different.

200mm... maybe. Or I might just as happy with two LRM-15s or even two LRM-10s. But this seems ridiculously overpowered.

If you introduced weapons with less tonnage, you might be on to something. But with this, it isn't for me. The changes to the meta don't make them worthwhile on paper.  Maybe in-game if you have data on how they played. However, you would be negating several designs and their roles just so they could carry a heavier, less effective weapon.

You've made it clear that nothing I can say is valid. Fair enough. Why are you in my thread then if you don't want to have a discussion?

Orin J.

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Re: My AC Tweaks
« Reply #22 on: 05 July 2018, 23:44:49 »
Er.....it don't look good, hoss. What's the value of the lower caliber ACs? why are we assuming there's a smaller powder load for them? why is the the damage spread out? All told, i think the original ACs are better almost across the board, and the only reason the last one is an exception is that you gave it huge range to compensate for losing the main draw of the AC/20. Feels like you're trying to make apple juice with potatoes.

....why 4?
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PreacherPatriot1776

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Re: My AC Tweaks
« Reply #23 on: 05 July 2018, 23:57:04 »
Er.....it don't look good, hoss. What's the value of the lower caliber ACs? why are we assuming there's a smaller powder load for them? why is the the damage spread out? All told, i think the original ACs are better almost across the board, and the only reason the last one is an exception is that you gave it huge range to compensate for losing the main draw of the AC/20. Feels like you're trying to make apple juice with potatoes.

....why 4?

RE: 30x173mm rounds are very much smaller then 120mm and 200mm rounds.

https://www.gd-ots.com/munitions/medium-caliber-ammunition/30mmx173-ammunition-suite-for-mk44-cannon/

120mm round currently available uses 8.1kgs of propellant which is way more then what the 30mmx173 weighs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M829

And so on.

The damage is spread out because it's a full auto weapon as per the fluff.

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: My AC Tweaks
« Reply #24 on: 06 July 2018, 00:16:03 »
Well are you looking for feedback?  I suppose the presumption is that you are.  Because if you're not, why did you post it? :)  Besides, house rule fixes for autocannons is a perennial thread that continually re-arises.  People are naturally prone to comparing your ideas vs others.  Not to derail your ideas, but an ever popular one is to buff the damage output to some degree (the "HBS" fix is in vogue currently) but to inject my own opinion I'm more of a mind to approach autocannons indirectly from a heat management standpoint.  Take away Double Heat Sinks, or at least make more use of heat dissipation penalties due to the environment, and heat-efficient autocannons are more attractive without having to change them!

Anyway.  I sympathize somewhat with having dissonance at seeing the relationship of having a shorter range the bigger the caliber.  But at the end of the day it's a game and game balance has to come before realism.  So in light of that, I also see the stability issues as being the primary explanation for bigger autocannons having shorter effective range than smaller autocannons.

Because again when putting realism aside and just looking at game balance: IMO savings in tonnage isn't sufficient to balance smaller autocannons with smaller damage potential and shorter ranges vs bigger autocannons.

Brakiel

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Re: My AC Tweaks
« Reply #25 on: 06 July 2018, 07:11:10 »
I was wondering why I had a feeling of deja vu. Then I recalled this was exactly the same as a Reddit topic from a month ago. I'm guessing it's the same poster. Same arguments were brought up there, but OP kept ignoring them.
« Last Edit: 06 July 2018, 07:13:32 by Brakiel »

Daryk

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Re: My AC Tweaks
« Reply #26 on: 06 July 2018, 07:37:26 »
It's an interesting take, certainly.  Way back on the previous incarnation of this board, I followed a similar route with regard to bore sizes, but allowed varying the fire rate at each size (each bore size had a "base" tonnage and a "fire rate" tonnage).  Basically, it ended up as a huge matrix of weapons.  I anchored the table so every "AC/20" was 14 tons, and set it up such that the smaller bore sizes fired a larger number of shells to achieve the same damage output (and used the appropriate column on the cluster hit tables).  As I recall, that was the original fluff for ACs anyway (i.e., that there was a variety of bore sizes that all yielded the same damage output).  The ultimate effect was to simply drive the obvious choices to larger bore sizes, since they hit harder with each "cluster" and at longer range.

Alsadius

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Re: My AC Tweaks
« Reply #27 on: 06 July 2018, 07:48:21 »
I agree with the idea of larger AC sizes having more range, but if you're going to do that, there's one obvious change to make - the AC/2 is the machine gun. They're the same weapon. For that matter, part of me wants to say that the Long Tom is just an AC/50(and give it AP rounds with no burst but massive damage if they do hit).

Also, a weapon class where more damage means less range should exist - I think lasers fit that role very well(call it "thermal bloom" or "poor beam collimation" or whatever, but the physics is actually quite reasonable). That means changing most of the weapons, of course, at which point you're basically making a new game from scratch. But the principle is sound, IMO.

There we go again with the invalid comparison logical fallacy. The medium laser never was balanced and the entire let's balance the game's other weapons is an abject failure. See current weapon's balance or lack there of.

The IS medium laser is pretty much the benchmark everything else is balanced against. And it's good at it - it's a decent all-around weapon, sees a lot of use, but not nearly good enough to dominate the game.

Also, what lack of balance? The general consensus for common weapons is that the AC/2 is very weak, the AC/5 is a bit weak, Clan LRMs and LPLs are too good(even by Clan standards), and everything else is fairly well balanced. There's occasional dogs like the nLRM, but they're so rare that people don't tend to care. 90% of weapons that ever see play are balanced quite comfortably.
« Last Edit: 06 July 2018, 08:14:51 by Alsadius »

Fear Factory

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Re: My AC Tweaks
« Reply #28 on: 06 July 2018, 20:37:33 »
Respectfully, I disagree with the proposed rules.  Also, you might think it's comparing apples and oranges, but the core introductory weapons are designed to work together.  When you are talking about game balance you have to consider what the other weapons do.

What you propose is flipping the ranges and changing the damage mechanic to make them more realistic.  In my opinion, none of this works.

1 - Smaller Autocannons don't have much of a use anymore when compared to energy weapons.  Arguably, even more so than the originals.

2 - Larger Autocannons DO resemble LRM launchers.  You might not agree, but the weapons now don't have much of a difference from an LRM system.  An LRM-20 is a much more efficient Autocannon 20.  (I would also argue that this is what other weapon systems that currently exist suffer from, like HAG's and Rotary AC's).

I appreciate any effort to try and improve the game but I really don't see how these new rules help.  I'm even trying to improve the game and have backed off on a lot because of criticism.  Nothing wrong with being wrong.

You've made it clear that nothing I can say is valid. Fair enough.

In all honestly, it just looks like you refuse to accept any negative criticism.
« Last Edit: 06 July 2018, 23:29:03 by Fear Factory »
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Retry

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Re: My AC Tweaks
« Reply #29 on: 07 July 2018, 00:41:40 »
Respectfully, I disagree with the proposed rules.  Also, you might think it's comparing apples and oranges, but the core introductory weapons are designed to work together.  When you are talking about game balance you have to consider what the other weapons do.

What you propose is flipping the ranges and changing the damage mechanic to make them more realistic.  In my opinion, none of this works.

1 - Smaller Autocannons don't have much of a use anymore when compared to energy weapons.  Arguably, even more so than the originals.

2 - Larger Autocannons DO resemble LRM launchers.  You might not agree, but the weapons now don't have much of a difference from an LRM system.  An LRM-20 is a much more efficient Autocannon 20.  (I would also argue that this is what other weapon systems that currently exist suffer from, like HAG's and Rotary AC's).

I appreciate any effort to try and improve the game but I really don't see how these new rules help.  I'm even trying to improve the game and have backed off on a lot because of criticism.  Nothing wrong with being wrong.

Strongly agree with point 1 and I 2nd point 2 with the following caveat: I'd argue the "Preacher AC/20" would be a more flexible LRM-20.  The LRM-20 has a big minimum range but the Preacher AC/20 has none, and its range brackets are slightly better in general.  A little bit more heat, crits and tons is a small price to pay for marginally higher firepower combined with far more flexible range brackets.

My approach to trying to "balance" the ACs and such is usually more minimalistic.  Removing AC/2 and AC/5 minimum ranges, reducing AC/2 heat to 0 as will that really hurt anything?  Increasing AC/2 ammo supply to 50 rounds, in lines with the rest and their 100 damage potential per ton.  Fluffwise/Campaign wise, lowering C-Bill Costs and possibly tech rating of the cannons themselves (the "cheap" AC/5 costs more than the high-tech Large Laser).  Marginal improvements that's not going to "wow" anybody but nonetheless makes them a little less gimped.  I think the biggest 'change' I ever did was let ACs double-tap like UACs with a +1 to-hit modifier (and made UACs work a bit different as well).  Those are the simple changes anyways, I dabbled a bit with alternative AC ammo like ATGMs and HV ammunition too but they're more rules-heavy and out of range of the discussion.

(I try to avoid revising weight/crits since that can potentially invalidate canon units or give them "dead weight".  Makes the balancing job harder though.)

But back to the OP.  "Powder charge" is an overly simplistic justification, and not correct either.  I'm really tired and lazy so I'll try to demonstrate without too much words or going math heavy.

If you're in a vacuum environment with a gravitational field like the moon (not completely irrelevant to BT as conflicts do occur in such environs from time to time), your absolute maximum range is only dictated by muzzle velocity and the force of gravity and the round will essentially follow a true parabolic arc.  If we set gravity constant, the higher muzzle velocity weapon will have the greater range.  In this case, the higher muzzle velocity of the 5.56mm NATO round at ~850m/s will have a nearly identical maximum range in a vacuum to the real Long Tom, the M1 155mm Howitzer, also at 850m/s muzzle velocity, despite the Howitzer's obviously far larger powder charge.  We can also consider this maximum range the "maximum theoretical" maximum range as that's the range the weapon would have in that gravity field before considering aerodynamic drag.

Aerodynamic Drag is basically the reason why the huge 155mm Howitzer has a higher actual maximum range than the 5.56mm NATO round on earth despite similar muzzle velocities.  Basically, the NATO round will slow down in flight due to the air pushing back on it, like an object thrown underwater slowing down rapidly.  Assuming similar drag coefficients for the NATO bullet & the Howitzer shell, the bullet weighs 4 grams while the typical howitzer shell weighs 45,000 grams.  The ratio of the weight of the bullet and the shell is 11,250 bullets per shell.  The ratio of areas for a 5.56mm bullet to the 155mm howitzer shell is about 777, so 777 5.56 cross-sectional areas are equal to 1 155mm cross-sectional area.  Divide the ratios and you conclude that the small arms bullet is 14.4x more effected at a given velocity by drag than the artillery shell, thus lower range in an atmosphere.

Even in an atmosphere with these rules, higher calibre, heavier shell & more powder doesn't translate to higher range, as a good-enough shell with a higher velocity can make up the difference.  Ex: Compare the M116 75mm pack howitzer to the Japanese type 38 15cm howitzer.  The Japanese howitzer has 2x the caliber of the American howitzer, the Japanese shell weighs 36kg while the American shell weighs 8-9ish kg, but the American howitzer has a typical muzzle velocity of 390 m/s versus the Japanese howitzer's 290 m/s.  You can do a simple calculation to find muzzle energy: .5*m*v^2, and you'll see the Japanese's is higher and so should have more powder.  Yet, the American howitzer has a typical maximum firing range of 8.8km while the Japanese one has a maximum range of 5.9km.  So simply having higher muzzle energies and caliber is no guarantee to higher maximum firing range.

Either way, maximum firing range isn't the same thing as effective firing ranges, and real-life engagement ranges are generally far below that of their maximum theoretical values as it's actually pretty difficult to actually hit something 10 kilometers away, howitzer or not.  Something that's allegedly with an effective firing range of, say, 5 kilometers with a 500 m/s muzzle velocity is going to take more than 10 seconds just for the shot to hit the ground, so take those numbers with a mound of salt.

In real life, guns tend to pay dearly in the weight department for improved performance.  Take the famous Bofors 40mm guns.  You have your L/60, an old WWII workhorse, and your super fancy high-tech L/70, which some ships use in some variants for anti-missile defense with 100 m/s increased muzzle velocity, faster turret traversing rates for tracking targets, and nearly a 3x increase in rate of fire.  This comes at the cost of increasing the weapon's weight from 2 tons to 5 tons.  Or the Bushmaster 25mm cannon as seen on the Bradley compared to the Bushmaster II 30mm cannon, a weapon that allegedly sees a 50% increase in firepower for a similar increase in weight (110lb -> 160lb)

The basic answer as to why small ACs have longer ranges than large ACs is: They don't pay the weight for it.  The AC/20 doubles the AC/10s firepower for only 2 tons extra mass, 14 tons vs 12 tons.  You just can't get BOTH massive increases in firepower and extend, or even keep your current range brackets at the same tech level for only such a small increase in weight.  We're not going from a L7 105mm cannon to a Rheinmetall 120mm gun, we're going from a L7 to some weightier prototype L7 with a snub-nose but weighty automatic reloader, or some other junk.  If we wanted to keep an extremely high range weapon with a hard-hitting punch, we'd either have a 30-40 ton AC/20 or some crazy crap, or we'd have a Gauss Rifle.

Atarlost

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Re: My AC Tweaks
« Reply #30 on: 07 July 2018, 12:44:45 »
I agree with the idea of larger AC sizes having more range, but if you're going to do that, there's one obvious change to make - the AC/2 is the machine gun. They're the same weapon. For that matter, part of me wants to say that the Long Tom is just an AC/50(and give it AP rounds with no burst but massive damage if they do hit).

Also, a weapon class where more damage means less range should exist - I think lasers fit that role very well(call it "thermal bloom" or "poor beam collimation" or whatever, but the physics is actually quite reasonable). That means changing most of the weapons, of course, at which point you're basically making a new game from scratch. But the principle is sound, IMO.

This only works if you're making a completely new game.  Any new rule for Battletech has to keep weapons in their same roles and must be very careful about changing weights. 

If you change the range relationships everything that was designed around the old ranges needs to be completely redone from first concepts.  Since you propose to do both lasers and autocannons that's pretty much everything classic.  If you leave PPCs their range the Griffin and Panther get to stay, as does the Javelin, but that's about it for mechs.  Since you'd inevitably have to increase the weight of some things for balance a lot of things would just flat out become impossible, particularly in aerospace where light designs tend to boat medium lasers because they don't have the weight to do anything else. 

Alsadius

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Re: My AC Tweaks
« Reply #31 on: 07 July 2018, 13:37:47 »
Oh, for sure - that's why I said "at which point you're basically making a new game from scratch". It's not at all compatible with BT as it exists. But that's the depth of revision that you would need for this sort of a revamp of autocannons to make sense.

Red Pins

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Re: My AC Tweaks
« Reply #32 on: 07 July 2018, 22:17:55 »
This only works if you're making a completely new game.  Any new rule for Battletech has to keep weapons in their same roles and must be very careful about changing weights. 

If you change the range relationships everything that was designed around the old ranges needs to be completely redone from first concepts.  Since you propose to do both lasers and autocannons that's pretty much everything classic.  If you leave PPCs their range the Griffin and Panther get to stay, as does the Javelin, but that's about it for mechs.  Since you'd inevitably have to increase the weight of some things for balance a lot of things would just flat out become impossible, particularly in aerospace where light designs tend to boat medium lasers because they don't have the weight to do anything else. 

Meh.  I'm good with a reboot.
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