Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?

[Colt Ward]

Ah, not that many then... Jets came in pretty quickly...

Not quite for carriers . . . IIRC it was a interesting strategic imbalance . . . carrier planes could pop up wherever b/c of the mobility of the airfield but lacked the ability to launch jets.  Fixed airbases could rapidly respond to a carrier plane incursion b/c of the speed difference but it was easier for carrier planes to degrade the nearest airfields.

[Daryk]

The first jet landing and take off on a carrier was apparently in 1945, so it wasn't that long...

[DoctorMonkey]

The first jet landing and take off on a carrier was apparently in 1945, so it wasn't that long...

I'm taking this all from Wikipedia so am aware it may be completely wrong but...


The first jets were flying between 1939 and 1941 in prototype form, the first jet fighters were introduced to service in 1944 - all of this was on the background of active wartime development speeds


However, by 1945 the impetus for improving carrier based aviation was gone - Japan was crippled and Germany was not an issue for carrier based fighters


Early jets struggled with reliability (for example needing overhaul every 80-150 hours) and power at lower speeds was poor with slower acceleration than a prop driven engine to speed the aircraft along the short flight deck and up up and away with or without catapult assistance

[Kidd]

There's actually video

A deHavilland Vampire on HMS Ocean. Seas look none too calm.

https://youtu.be/PNoUBil7A3c

[DoctorMonkey]

Interestingly, the problems now seem reversed, while take off can be sorted - see this vid of an F-35B taking off from HMS Queen Elizabeth

https://youtu.be/OM3qQUVGN5s


the landing is harder


https://youtu.be/jP0rUkDz_Fg


because on the F-35B you don't have wires or a barrier or a great deal of speed


Landing with arrestor wires is common even on land - for example the Tornado in RAF service used them - let alone on CATOBAR carriers - although the Haynes Manual on the Tornado did comment that the tailhook on that aircraft looks wimpy and fragile compared to the ones on naval aircraft like the F-14 or F/A-18s

[Simon Landmine]

There's actually video

A deHavilland Vampire on HMS Ocean. Seas look none too calm.

And, of course it's Captain 'Winkle' Brown. I really should have known that it would be.

[Ursus Maior]

IIRC India still has it "on a list" of possible fighters for their CVs, given that all their current planes have some kind of problem. Brazil, of course, doesn't have a carrier for them any longer... ::)

Speaking of which:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/Sao_Paulo_carrier_forward_flight_deck_2003.jpg

One year ago today the Brazilian aircraft carrier São Paulo, formerly the French aircraft carrier Foch was decommissioned after found to be uneconomical to refit and repair.

[Kidd]

Speaking of which:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/Sao_Paulo_carrier_forward_flight_deck_2003.jpg

One year ago today the Brazilian aircraft carrier São Paulo, formerly the French aircraft carrier Foch was decommissioned after found to be uneconomical to refit and repair.

I honestly don't think Sao Paulo has ever been "operational" for more than a couple of months at a time

[Sharpnel]

Speaking of which:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/Sao_Paulo_carrier_forward_flight_deck_2003.jpg

One year ago today the Brazilian aircraft carrier São Paulo, formerly the French aircraft carrier Foch was decommissioned after found to be uneconomical to refit and repair.

Skyhawks in the hizzouse!

[Ursus Maior]

I honestly don't think Sao Paulo has ever been "operational" for more than a couple of months at a time

That's true, but they kept on trying until the plug to pulled.

[Colt Ward]

The first jets were flying between 1939 and 1941 in prototype form, the first jet fighters were introduced to service in 1944 - all of this was on the background of active wartime development speeds

However, by 1945 the impetus for improving carrier based aviation was gone - Japan was crippled and Germany was not an issue for carrier based fighters

Early jets struggled with reliability (for example needing overhaul every 80-150 hours) and power at lower speeds was poor with slower acceleration than a prop driven engine to speed the aircraft along the short flight deck and up up and away with or without catapult assistance

There's actually video

A deHavilland Vampire on HMS Ocean. Seas look none too calm.

https://youtu.be/PNoUBil7A3c

The USN's first carrier jet, the F9F Panther, was cleared for carrier operations in '49


 . . . with modifications to a swept wing design to combat MiGs in the Korean War, but it never met its intend opponent.

[worktroll]

And, of course it's Captain 'Winkle' Brown. I really should have known that it would be.

Just finished "Wings of the Luftwaffe", which is his book about flying captured German aircraft - highly recommended.

[Simon Landmine]

Just finished "Wings of the Luftwaffe", which is his book about flying captured German aircraft - highly recommended.

Ta for the tip!

[Daryk]

I consider even '49 to be "not that long"...  ^-^

[Ghost0402]

Ah, not that many then... Jets came in pretty quickly...

1500 or so and they came into service late 1944.

[Daryk]

Jets yes... carrier based ones?  A little longer, but still not that much...

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The article I read said that the Hellcat stayed in service as a night fighter until 54.

[Daryk]

The Sky Raider was still active during Vietnam, but we had jets well before '54 as Kidd pointed out.

[I am Belch II]

Piston engine planes sipped gas while turbojets chugged gas. The Skyraiders were great at staying on station where the jets had a struggle with that.

[CrossfirePilot]

And additional bonus is that a radial engine like the Skyraider had tends to weather damage a little better than many others.

[grimlock1]

And additional bonus is that a radial engine like the Skyraider had tends to weather damage a little better than many others.

Yeah, the radiators on P-51s didn't do so well with ground fire...

[Colt Ward]

I want to say the props in use in the Korean War still scored a few air to air kills.

From what I was able to find the UK sent the HMS Unicorn as part of UN forces, and the first carrier on site was the only (??) in the Pacific, the USS Valley Forge.  She had to steam from the West Coast, since apparently she shifted from Oahu to San Diego in '49.

And what looks like a Korean War era picture since it appears to be Panthers on the cats-


One of the UK planes involved was the Hawker Sea Fury, this one clearly a Navy bird from our Aussie friends-

[CrossfirePilot]

History Guy covered the AVRO Arrow today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4z5-l7u2Uo

[qc mech3]

In an episode of the Canadian Antique roadshow, a woman brough some memorabilia owned by her father: blueprints and various documents binders (specs and requests) of the Arrow! Her father worked on the project and like all the other employees, simply took all he could when the Avro plant closed. He told his daughter that the bosses didn't care and the security helped those taking tools with them. The appraiser told the woman, the government didn't even kept their copies of her documents so what she had was priceless.  :(

[ANS Kamas P81]

I hope she hooked up with some of the Canadian historians and got copies of everything made.

[Daryk]

Priceless indeed! 

[grimlock1]

I want to say the props in use in the Korean War still scored a few air to air kills.

The last of the old will always be better than the first of the new.

[I am Belch II]

Sea Fury some of the late great piston engine fighters of the day that outclassed the early jets. To bad it came just a little to late. The Bearcat was piston engine awesome also. Seen the Bearcat at airshows, I think they could of flown circles around the P51s.

[I am Belch II]

Here is a before Thanksgiving after Thanksgiving plane style for the people that are celebrating Thursday.

[Kidd]

The last of the old will always be better than the first of the new.

That's a very good point.