Mech of the Week - MSK-XX Mackie

[glitterboy2098]

See, if I was an enemy spy, and I saw a project called something as unassuming as "Mackie," I'd totally want to look into it.  If it was called "Murderbot 5000," I'd probably go with it being obvious schmuck bait to root out spies.

military and goverment projects tend to have unassuming codenames.

i mean, the development of the Stealth Fighter was under the codename "HAVE BLUE"
the test flights of the Mig-17 and Mig-21 were HAVE DOUGHNUT and HAVE DRILL/HAVE FERRY, the 4477th Test and Evaluation Squadron, which flew mig's for air combat training combats, was CONSTANT PEG, etc.

generally code names for projects are intentionally obtuse and obscuring. usually something to ensure that it sounds suitably innocuous if accidentally overheard. it also allows for any products that come out of them to be given more suitable names if the recipient wants it. (which is why the F-117 became the "Nighthawk" in service, rather than the "Have Blue")

generally only projects that are intended to be made public as part of their operations (like military assaults and stuff) are given dramatic names.. and even those tend to start as something like the above, and just get renamed to something dramatic before they tell the press.

sometimes the secrecy part backfires though. look at Project STARGATE.. , which while having nothing to do with spaceflight, is certainly a dramatic enough title that people started digging into th layers of secrecy to find out what it was.

[Getz]

During the cold war the British used so called "rainbow codes" which were a randomly assigned colour and noun.  Examples included the Red Queen anti-aircraft gun, Orange Putter tail warning radar and the Green Cheese nuclear missile.

Much later when the radar developed for first Tornado interceptors was not ready in time, the concrete ballast weights installed in their place were nicknamed Blue Circle radar sets - Blue circle being a British cement manufacturer...

[mbear]

military and goverment projects tend to have unassuming codenames.

i mean, the development of the Stealth Fighter was under the codename "HAVE BLUE"
the test flights of the Mig-17 and Mig-21 were HAVE DOUGHNUT and HAVE DRILL/HAVE FERRY, the 4477th Test and Evaluation Squadron, which flew mig's for air combat training combats, was CONSTANT PEG, etc.

generally code names for projects are intentionally obtuse and obscuring. usually something to ensure that it sounds suitably innocuous if accidentally overheard. it also allows for any products that come out of them to be given more suitable names if the recipient wants it. (which is why the F-117 became the "Nighthawk" in service, rather than the "Have Blue")

generally only projects that are intended to be made public as part of their operations (like military assaults and stuff) are given dramatic names.. and even those tend to start as something like the above, and just get renamed to something dramatic before they tell the press.

Examples of this can be found in the XTRO:Davion book, where you have MUSE FIRE, CADENCE RAIN, MUSE RED, and CORAL INTENT. Of course then your spies realize they must be onto something because those are just weird names.

I would like to hear more about the unofficial Marian Mackie, particularly how it mounts Rocket Launchers.

[Col.Hengist]

I love the Mackie.  But I kinda want to have been at the staff meeting where they decided on the name for the thing.

"So, uh, what are we going to name our giant death robot?  The suggestions have been the Murderbot 5000, the Iron Giant, and Mackie."

"LET'S GO WITH THE THIRD ONE!"

 No one wanted Roboty MacRobotface  :-[

[hawkins180]

No one wanted Roboty MacRobotface

Thank the Cameron Saints for that

[jklantern]

No one wanted Roboty MacRobotface  :-[

Okay, since I've already declared Marian Mackies canon, I am also declaring either this or Murderbot 5000 the canon actual name for the Mackie.   ;D

J. Kellogg Lantern:  CLEARLY understands how canon works.

[Frabby]

Where did all the Mackies go? Oodles of these were produced over a long time, yet only a suspiciously tiny number was said to remain by the time of the Exodus.
I don't recall who first came up with this (not me!), but I read a fan theory that I thought was plausible: The chassis were used to build Atlases from. The Mackie had a noted history of being upgraded all the time. And the Atlas seems to have become suspiciously widespread in a suspiciously short timeframe...

[SteelRaven]

I think the Mackie was never meant to stay in production but the writers fell in love with it, so now we have Kerensky loading Dropships with Mackies for the Exodus.

 

[Liam's Ghost]

Well the last generation of Mackies were apparently used primarily by Terran Hegemony militia forces, which, between the Amaris Coup and the First Succession War, was a terrible place to be.

Earlier generations would probably have been mostly scrappped or shipped to wherever all those Archers and Wasps were stored*.

*Presumably by a guy saying "don't think about the published numbers!" while throwing a smoke bomb

[glitterboy2098]

Where did all the Mackies go? Oodles of these were produced over a long time, yet only a suspiciously tiny number was said to remain by the time of the Exodus.
I don't recall who first came up with this (not me!), but I read a fan theory that I thought was plausible: The chassis were used to build Atlases from. The Mackie had a noted history of being upgraded all the time. And the Atlas seems to have become suspiciously widespread in a suspiciously short timeframe...

i don't think you could turn a mackie chassis into an atlas that way.

however i would not be surprised if the Primitive-tech Mackies were scrapped and recycled for the most part, their materials reprocessed to make the more advanced TH and SLDF designs.
and that the non-primitives were never as widely built, and saw a lot of attrition.

[Weirdo]

What Liam said. The Age of War and Star League eras are not the Succession Wars, where all available mechs are maintained with salvage so much that they can last for centuries with the proper care. Those bygone days are more like the modern world, where old and obsolete units are retired, scrapped, or even recycled for the metal. The earliest generations of mechs likely only served a few decades before being parted out or melted down, with the few survivors being those that find their way into private collections or became museum pieces/gate guardians.

Later builds would have served and then been shuffled off to Terran militias, which bore the brunt of Amaris's initial takeover of the Hegemony. Those Mackies would have either fallen in battle during those first days of the war, or been abandoned(Mackies can fill many roles, but guerrilla fighter isn't one of them), put into service by the AEAF, and subsequently destroyed by the SLDF.

[Maingunnery]

What Liam said. The Age of War and Star League eras are not the Succession Wars, where all available mechs are maintained with salvage so much that they can last for centuries with the proper care. Those bygone days are more like the modern world, where old and obsolete units are retired, scrapped, or even recycled for the metal. The earliest generations of mechs likely only served a few decades before being parted out or melted down, with the few survivors being those that find their way into private collections or became museum pieces/gate guardians.

Later builds would have served and then been shuffled off to Terran militias, which bore the brunt of Amaris's initial takeover of the Hegemony. Those Mackies would have either fallen in battle during those first days of the war, or been abandoned(Mackies can fill many roles, but guerrilla fighter isn't one of them), put into service by the AEAF, and subsequently destroyed by the SLDF.

What about cached units, such as the primitives from New Dallas? There could be quite a few Age of War caches around the Inner sphere.

[Weirdo]

Stripped bare in the centuries prior? I dunno.

[Maingunnery]

Stripped bare in the centuries prior? I dunno.

If they haven't forgotten about them. People cared so little for them and they were replaced so rapidly, I can imagine that many sites were simply forgotten.

[marauder648]

Re the Marian Mackie how about calling it the Marius, after a Roman Emperor?  Or for some reason the name Merrimack keeps sticking in my head, although you could probably call  a Taurian Mech design that.

[I am Belch II]

Still love the Mackie!!

[Colt Ward]

Did we ever get intro dates for the upgraded Mackies?

[Maelwys]

The MUL has dates for all the designs except for "Kill-Roy's Little Buddy."

http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Filter?Name=Mackie&HasBV=false&MinTons=&MaxTons=&MinBV=&MaxBV=&MinIntro=&MaxIntro=&MinCost=&MaxCost=&HasRole=&HasBFAbility=&MinPV=&MaxPV=&Role=None+Selected&BookAuto=&FactionAuto=

edit
Of course, I'm not sure the Star League era stuff is considered finalized, but its a good place to start.
/edit

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, I found that after checking other sources . . . just surprised not to see it in the article.

[Drewbacca]

...damn it, now I know what I'm doing in the morning during breakfast.

Was just reading through the old thread. Did you remember to switch out the AC/20 for an LB-X model?

[YingJanshi]

I love the Mackie.  But I kinda want to have been at the staff meeting where they decided on the name for the thing.

"So, uh, what are we going to name our giant death robot?  The suggestions have been the Murderbot 5000, the Iron Giant, and Mackie."

"LET'S GO WITH THE THIRD ONE!"

Well...there's a Lake Mackie in Wisconsin and a Scottish clan Mackie...

[Intermittent_Coherence]

Re the Marian Mackie how about calling it the Marius, after a Roman Emperor?  Or for some reason the name Merrimack keeps sticking in my head, although you could probably call  a Taurian Mech design that.

Mariackie?

[Colt Ward]

Marius was never emperor . . . IIRC Sulla saw to that . . .

[mbear]

What Liam said. The Age of War and Star League eras are not the Succession Wars, where all available mechs are maintained with salvage so much that they can last for centuries with the proper care. Those bygone days are more like the modern world, where old and obsolete units are retired, scrapped, or even recycled for the metal. The earliest generations of mechs likely only served a few decades before being parted out or melted down, with the few survivors being those that find their way into private collections or became museum pieces/gate guardians.

Now I want to find the SLDF equivalent of Anniston Army Depot, where they rebuild M1's. That would be cool.

[Wrangler]

I thought Dallas had stored their Mackies away along with other designs in their depot though they had updated their newer Mackies. I know many obsoleted mechs ended up in planetary milities in the years running up to Succession Wars. 

[Colt Ward]

What Liam said. The Age of War and Star League eras are not the Succession Wars, where all available mechs are maintained with salvage so much that they can last for centuries with the proper care. Those bygone days are more like the modern world, where old and obsolete units are retired, scrapped, or even recycled for the metal. The earliest generations of mechs likely only served a few decades before being parted out or melted down, with the few survivors being those that find their way into private collections or became museum pieces/gate guardians.

Later builds would have served and then been shuffled off to Terran militias, which bore the brunt of Amaris's initial takeover of the Hegemony. Those Mackies would have either fallen in battle during those first days of the war, or been abandoned(Mackies can fill many roles, but guerrilla fighter isn't one of them), put into service by the AEAF, and subsequently destroyed by the SLDF.

Which is the Western Model . . .
Frontline service with elite units for designed purpose (European units during the Cold War, Korea DMZ in Cold War, N Atlantic fleets, etc)
Production gets around to filling all regular commands to become the standard
Package upgrades to weapon system- better guns, engines, sensors, armor, etc
Pulled from elite units to be replaced with the latest thing, hands off to the better reserve units- starts selling to allies, or in this case the Houses
Design gets repurposed for specialization in elite/frontline service (Wild Weasel Phantoms, EF-111 EW platforms, WWII diesel subs for R&D- Archerfish, M-60s as bridgelayers/mineclearing/CEV) this step sometimes combines with the previous one- also becomes training vehicle
Fills reserve units and is in limited regular units, oldest examples start getting mothballed or scrapped- or ones that have structural wear/faults
No longer in regular units, better reserve units start replacing with 'latest' thing
Phased out of reserve units into mothballs- gets used for targets- beyond strategic minimum reserve, gets scrapped

Soviet model?
Never throw it away, it can be used somewhere!

So yeah . . . Hegemony militia was still using the Mackie up to Aramis per the fluff, but not the original model since it had kept being upgraded.  Probably had depots set up around the Hegemony like what Lima was in the 50s and Davis-Mothman is for the USAF today.  New Dallas's underground storage facility was just that sort of stockpile.
 Since IMO they would be regional, the question is could someone have moved or hidden the mechs, armor, ASF, small craft and maybe even DS before Aramis folks laid hands on them.  We know in the case of what was found on Helm, that could very well have happened in other place.

[Breetai]

As much as it's a 'primitive' 'Mech, the 6S weapons package is actually pretty sweet, and you can mount it on a 75 tonner moving 4/6 with max armour and it turns into a vicious little Heavy that can curbstomp Marauders all day erry day.

[Empyrus]

As much as it's a 'primitive' 'Mech, the 6S weapons package is actually pretty sweet, and you can mount it on a 75 tonner moving 4/6 with max armour and it turns into a vicious little Heavy that can curbstomp Marauders all day erry day.

The Marauder would have range advantage and overall firepower advantage, especially if it is willing to push its heat. Park it behind a hill and you can heat up to 7 for no practical effect, allowing relatively high sustained firepower. Armor difference is there to be sure, hence the partial cover (or better yet, a depth 1 water hex).

The "Mackie" as you describe it, would need to get 15 hexes to deal 20 damage per turn, which may be significant problem depending on terrain. If it tries the same trick as the Marauder, it may end up out of range for some weapons, or just having weaker firepower. It really wouldn't be a curbstomp battle, even if the armor is enough to allow the "Mackie" to survive (it would have BV advantage), it would be badly damaged most likely.

And if we are talking about the Star League era, let's remember the 1R and 2Rs are much better machines...


But, the Mackie is not that.

[Breetai]

The Marauder would have range advantage and overall firepower advantage, especially if it is willing to push its heat. Park it behind a hill and you can heat up to 7 for no practical effect, allowing relatively high sustained firepower. Armor difference is there to be sure, hence the partial cover (or better yet, a depth 1 water hex).

The "Mackie" as you describe it, would need to get 15 hexes to deal 20 damage per turn, which may be significant problem depending on terrain. If it tries the same trick as the Marauder, it may end up out of range for some weapons, or just having weaker firepower. It really wouldn't be a curbstomp battle, even if the armor is enough to allow the "Mackie" to survive (it would have BV advantage), it would be badly damaged most likely.

And if we are talking about the Star League era, let's remember the 1R and 2Rs are much better machines...


But, the Mackie is not that.

Eh. If you're allowed to claim a +1 from partial cover I'm allowed to close 6 hexes per turn and that handily eliminates the range advantage.

It's not 100% real-life-play (though it is 'opponents of equal skill'), but 2 Megamek bots each running a full company of my idea vs. MAD-3R on a 2*2 randomised board resulted in total loss of all marauders vs. loss of 2 Mackies.

[Empyrus]

I don't do Megamek so i have no idea how smart the bot is but if it is anything like typical video game AI, i really wouldn't read anything into its doings. Seen supposedly smart strategy game AI to utterly idiotic things commonly (really think calling AI "automatic idiot" is quite accurate).

Besides, while individual Marauder vs this hypothetical nonexistent 75-ton Mackie has only about 100 BV cost difference and thus terrain may benefit Marauder just enough for it to win or damage the Mackie severely, company vs company raises that difference to massive size plus focus firing (which any smart commander would order) changes things too much. It isn't really valid test, i think, though i will admit 1v1 duels aren't exactly representative of reality either.

As for partial cover, i suggested that for the Marauder because the 'Mech really should always look for that when possible, it is not a 'Mech to pick for open field battle. You're right that the range advantage would be lost quickly, but partial cover benefit would be significant, it isn't just +1 to hit but leg hits (which take significant percentage of hit location table) being negated completely.

This all reminds me there probably should be a tactics article that analyzes things like terrain, terrain effects (such as partial cover) range and range bracket importance, good movement patterns, places to control on maps, etc.