Could the Consciousness and Bleeding Check Rules be Better?

[BiggRigg42]

The following is an opinion of mine that I'm open to having changed.

The Consciousness Check rules make unconsciousness too likely to occur, and the Bleeding Check rules make bleeding too unlikely. These rules neither simulate reality well nor improve gameplay. But I have a fix for this that is consistent with RAW, with which I end this post.

According to page 184, every time a character takes any amount of Standard or Fatigue damage, it needs to pass a Consciousness Check (2d6 + WIL link modifier + Standard and Fatigue damage modifiers, TN 7) or go unconscious. Since most characters only have at most a +1 WIL link modifier, they will go unconscious a lot. A character that loses initiative may get shot twice by one opponent and need to make two Consciousness Checks; failing one of them can mean death. And if it doesn't mean death, the player with an unconscious character cannot play the game for at least one round, until they pass a Consciousness Check in the end phase. Players dislike being unable to play. What's more, this rule doesn't simulate reality, where people go unconscious from particularly bad, not all, concussions. Most blows to the head or body (even in football or boxing) aren't strong enough to cause a concussion, but in AToW, if I so much as stub my toe, I'm likely to go unconscious from a concussion. 

According to page 184, Bleeding Checks are only made when receiving Standard damage greater than BOD/2 rounded up, and the Check is an unmodified BOD Attribute Check, meaning we don't add in Standard or Fatigue damage modifiers. Thus, Bleeding Checks are more unlikely to occur and easier to pass than Consciousness Checks. But in reality, people can easily start bleeding out and can hardly go unconscious from suffering concussions.

To fix this, I have the bad guys ignore unconscious PCs, and I allow PCs to bring their friendly unconscious PCs to consciousness with a MedTech Skill roll. 

What are your thoughts on the topic?

[pokefan548]

I'm fine with occasionally fluffing "unconscousness" as being non-ambulatory and generally less aware (at least as far as the fine details go) as the character goes into shock or is generally overcome by pain. I agree that bleeding needs to be reworked, especially since with advanced hit locations internal bleeding tends to be more likely than regular bleeding, but at the same time 1 damage a turn should represent a pretty threatening loss of blood.

[Daryk]

Given the relative effects, I'm ok with bleeding being less likely than unconsciousness.

That said, you're not wrong in saying the rules could be tweaked to benefit play overall.  :thumbsup:

[BiggRigg42]

Given the relative effects, I'm ok with bleeding being less likely than unconsciousness.

That said, you're not wrong in saying the rules could be tweaked to benefit play overall.  :thumbsup:

Right. I'm not saying the game is bad. But 1v1s can be super deadly without spending EDG. On the plus side, this heavily discourages player vs player combat.

[Daryk]

It also encourages not zeroing out EDG in character creation...  ^-^

[Grand_dm]

I'm not a fan of the rule. In our games when the PCs win initiative they just try to damage everything once, fishing for unconsciousness.

[Grand_dm]

My gut reaction is to make the Consciousness check occur at every tier of Injury Modifier.

That way if you take 1 damage you don't suddenly feint.

[Daryk]

That sounds reasonable... and I see your shift of avatar...  8)

[pokefan548]

Again assuming that "unconscious" in this case can also mean "doubled over and unable to deliberately move", I think the system as is would work fine if armor worked more like it does in real life, where it either pens or it doesn't.

[Daryk]

Even a round that doesn't penetrate can knock you down/around.

[Grand_dm]

That sounds reasonable... and I see your shift of avatar...  8)

Yes, haha. The Urbanmech with no name!

[Grand_dm]

Again assuming that "unconscious" in this case can also mean "doubled over and unable to deliberately move", I think the system as is would work fine if armor worked more like it does in real life, where it either pens or it doesn't.

It's too heavy handed RAW. You could theoretically stub your toe and become unconscious.

I do like that ATOW is not some heroic fantasy game like D&D, but this particular rule could use some tweaking. Or in the very least some official options from the development team. Similar to the optional Wound and Stim patches in the Companion.

[BiggRigg42]

The Consciousness Check rule is made worse by the Individual Initiative rule. If the bad guys all win initiative, the PCs are likely to die. But if the PCs all win initiative, the bad guys are likely to die without the PCs taking a scratch. It can be a game of rocket tag.

What we need is for the PCs and bad guys to consistently alternate turns, which happens under the Team Initiative rule (p. 165). I'm going to playtest the game with four to six PCs against a similar number of bad guys under the Team Initiative rule, even though AToW recommends Team Initiative for over fifty characters.

What do you all think of this idea?

[Grand_dm]

The Consciousness Check rule is made worse by the Individual Initiative rule. If the bad guys all win initiative, the PCs are likely to die. But if the PCs all win initiative, the bad guys are likely to die without the PCs taking a scratch. It can be a game of rocket tag.

What we need is for the PCs and bad guys to consistently alternate turns, which happens under the Team Initiative rule (p. 165). I'm going to playtest the game with four to six PCs against a similar number of bad guys under the Team Initiative rule, even though AToW recommends Team Initiative for over fifty characters.

What do you all think of this idea?

I think it would cause the players to think and play more tactically. Which would mimic a firefight a bit more.

I'm not a fan of the initiative dog pile. It's a problem in many RPGs.

[Horsemen]

I don't think there is ever going to be a system that works without some level of fault or displeasure. It really varies on how you approach your view of it.

As much as stubbing your toe hurts I don't consider that the equivalent of actually causing damage or a consciousness check. That said, consciousness checks are a problem. Though I do like the suggestion of treating it more as a wind knocked out of you cannot move rather than out cold.

For a house-ruled game you can also try knocking the base TN down to a six or even a five. That may give you more what you are looking for.

Nor do I have an issue with the PCs dog piling for initiative. Heroes or not, they are the stars of the show and since they may have multiple fights they should have some advantage because potentially their negatives will add up where as most NPCs will be one-offs.

The PCs can always try to disengage and when I have had them all taken out then they've been captured and we have a new path to pursue for a time.

Death is always going to be an issue. During the play testing the intent was to have a certain level of lethality and while it is realistic I think it defeats the purpose of an RPG if it becomes too lethal so I have always been a bit mixed on it. Other than cover is your friend.

Thinking tactically is good but when it becomes a purely tactical game then you are stepping away from the RP and just running a different combat game. That would be a concern for using team initiative for me as it breaks the suspension of disbelief for me even more but it all depends on what a group is looking for and whether this is a private group, a public game, or a demo event.

[Daryk]

If you're looking for some scenarios to try, I made some...  :)

[Grand_dm]

Another idea would be to also include BOD not only WIL as a potential source of bonus for a Consciousness check.

[Col Toda]

Nothing wrong with the consciousness check rules. You are plugged in with a nuero helmet to a machine . Ammo explodes and the feedback of 2 pilot hits only goes to the man operating the mech not the command console.  Only falls and direct hits to the head effect both . Say my command  Naganata pilot takes 2 ammo hits goes ko from 2 ammo explosions wirh CASE. He gets ejected but the pilot in the command console cockpit only takes the 1 hit from the fall from the change over . Blunt force may have some bleeding but combat drugs and pilot suits with leg and arm turnicuts accessories would buy enough time to get help . Combat drugs are used to keep pilot going to Battletech standard as it is because if you use A TIME of War  RPG it would happen even sooner .

Many players have auto injectors with stimulates to eliminate fatigue next to one with Atropine to survive nerve gas .

[BiggRigg42]

If you're looking for some scenarios to try, I made some...  :)

Can I have them? Please.

[BiggRigg42]

Another idea would be to also include BOD not only WIL as a potential source of bonus for a Consciousness check.

This is a simple and effective house rule. I like it.

[BiggRigg42]

Nothing wrong with the consciousness check rules. You are plugged in with a nuero helmet to a machine . Ammo explodes and the feedback of 2 pilot hits only goes to the man operating the mech not the command console.  Only falls and direct hits to the head effect both . Say my command  Naganata pilot takes 2 ammo hits goes ko from 2 ammo explosions wirh CASE. He gets ejected but the pilot in the command console cockpit only takes the 1 hit from the fall from the change over . Blunt force may have some bleeding but combat drugs and pilot suits with leg and arm turnicuts accessories would buy enough time to get help . Combat drugs are used to keep pilot going to Battletech standard as it is because if you use A TIME of War  RPG it would happen even sooner .

Many players have auto injectors with stimulates to eliminate fatigue next to one with Atropine to survive nerve gas .

Thanks for informing me that the Consciousness check rules work fine when in a 'Mech. But that doesn't help much for out of 'Mech combat.

[Daryk]

Of course... they're right there under the link... :)

[Col Toda]

Alot of characters have the Fit trait to mitigate fatigue ; some have both fit and tough .

[Grand_dm]

This is a simple and effective house rule. I like it.

Thanks, it's what we settled on. WIL + BOD link.

[BiggRigg42]

I found a way to make consciousness checks less lethal. Use drugs! Page 313 has the stimpatch (+1 to consciousness checks) and the Clan stimpatch (+2 to consciousness checks). I see no reason why we couldn't make extra strength stimpatches. We have rules for making drugs, on page 321? Does anyone know how long the stimpatches last? I can't find that information.

[Grand_dm]

When damaged you're auto Stunned.

I like the idea also of only checking for consciousness if you're already Stunned AND hit again with a damaging attack.

That would at least eliminate fishing for uncons by just attacking people once.

[Grand_dm]

We have decided to flip the Bleeding/Uncon rules.

Bleeding should be more common and unconsciousness less:

Bleeding Check

A Bleeding Check is a unique roll required any time a character suffers Standard damage. This roll has a fixed TN of 7, but adds the Link Attribute modifier of the character’s BOD to the roll result, as well as the character’s current Injury and Fatigue modifiers. If successful, the character is not bleeding.

A character may only be bleeding or not bleeding. Once a character begins to bleed, he sustains 1 Standard damage as a Continuous effect during every End Phase after the bleeding injury occurred, until the blood flow is stopped.

Stopping Bleeding

To successfully stop a character’s blood loss, a friendly character—or the wounded character himself, if able—must spend an entire turn tending to the wound without movement, and execute a successful MedTech Skill Check during the Action Phase. The wounded character’s base Injury modifier is applied to this roll result, along with any other modifiers appropriate to the circumstances.

Consciousness Check

Every time a character suffers Standard or Subduing damage in excess of half their BOD or WIL score (rounded up), the character must make an unmodified BOD or WIL Attribute Check. If successful, the character remains conscious.

Becoming Conscious

A consciousness check is made in the End Phase of a combat turn for each character knocked out in a previous turn. Those that pass wake up.

[Daryk]

That sounds reasonable to me! :)

[Grand_dm]

That sounds reasonable to me! :)

All the sudden Medtech skill is also more valuable.

[Daryk]

And justifies its place in the Basic Training Fields... ;)

[DevianID]

So bit late, but question.  I guess we played it wrong, but with a TN of 7, is KO checks not a modified attribute check?  So with the average will of 4, I thought if there is no injury modifier you start with a 3+ (tn7 -4 will) for staying awake.  I may have assumed this from that being where battletech starts its KO rolls from.
We played it wrong, but close.  On my page 183 its a TN of 12 for a single attribute will check, but you also add your body.  So our joe average troops with 4 in each stat should have needed a 12-8=4 TN, -1 from injury up to 25%.  So we were off by 1 I guess.  Unless there is errata that further makes it weird.

If Consciousness is a skill roll, so you dont add your will to the role (well I guess if you have 7 will you add a measly 1), then shouldn't there be a skill I can buy instead?  Since for attribute checks you add your will versus the TN, and for skill checks you add the link score + skill versus the TN.  Seems odd the KO rules would use the skill rules but not have a skill to upgrade.

Edit: For bleeding, if our joe average bod4 troop took 3 damage, then they would need a bleeding check as it is more then half their bod.  This would be 12-4 for bod, so they would be bleeding unless they rolled an 8?  This makes bleeding pretty deadly unless you have a medic with kit already in hand right?  As it takes a simple action to pull out the kit, and a complex action to try and stop bleeding, so 2 turns most of the time?