What mechs are a great idea but really poor implimentation/comparison?

[SCC]

On a VEHICLE.

The Magi comes with LOTS of problems, chief among them being it's not useful for anything, including the alleged purpose for which it was designed.

It wasn't even usefulf or that purpose when TRO 2750 came out, either.

There are certain designs that are just...well...bad.

With Vehicles, you have the usual suspects.

With 'mechs, there are a number of designs that just don't make sense (too fragile for the tonnage while being slow, and having no range or light firepower) or whose initial look is "Wowza" until you use them and find out that eclectic weapons fit means it's a poor performer at EVERY range.

The game is served by having these 'dud designs'.

My point was that the other designs? They mount small lasers, so compared to them the Magi is, shall we say, less dumb.

[Minemech]

 Some items are added to the game for external flavor. The Magi is one of them and is quite exquisite at it (Rules and the need to stay on topic prevent further discussion on this one in particular). The Quickdraw is another, though it is very playable despite its flaws.

[monbvol]

With the Quickdraw though is the way it was designed makes it very poor at it's stated combat role.  This does not make it a bad/unusable mech.  It's just if you try and use it as a support/AA mech you'll have a bad time.

If you use it as a cavalry skirmisher? It works a lot better.

[Minemech]

With the Quickdraw though is the way it was designed makes it very poor at it's stated combat role.  This does not make it a bad/unusable mech.  It's just if you try and use it as a support/AA mech you'll have a bad time.

If you use it as a cavalry skirmisher? It works a lot better.

When I say flavor mech, I mean that it was meant to be a Quickdraw, could fire in any direction, and jump like a cowboy in the Wild West. It uses pistols (Medium Lasers) as its main guns over and against rifle users. Think of it in terms of western movies.

[glitterboy2098]

With the Quickdraw though is the way it was designed makes it very poor at it's stated combat role.  This does not make it a bad/unusable mech.  It's just if you try and use it as a support/AA mech you'll have a bad time.

If you use it as a cavalry skirmisher? It works a lot better.

who says it was ever created as a AA mech? it just says it was designed to replace the rifleman. which did both AA and direct frontline battle. the latter role being one the rifleman was very poor at, but had been forced into frequently. given that riflemen were in shorter supply at the time (per the fluff for the jagermech, which was designed around the same time) it makes sense that they'd develop a mainline combatant to replace riflemen on the frontlines and allow them to be moved rearwards into the AA duty they were meant for. the Davions, faced with a similar issue, chose to build the Jagermech to supplement and replace the Rifleman in the AA role instead.

[Prospernia]

The Rifleman, being an AA-mech, is a hold over from Macross.  In the sprite of Battletech, each mech is simply designed to fight other mechs.

[monbvol]

who says it was ever created as a AA mech? it just says it was designed to replace the rifleman. which did both AA and direct frontline battle. the latter role being one the rifleman was very poor at, but had been forced into frequently. given that riflemen were in shorter supply at the time (per the fluff for the jagermech, which was designed around the same time) it makes sense that they'd develop a mainline combatant to replace riflemen on the frontlines and allow them to be moved rearwards into the AA duty they were meant for. the Davions, faced with a similar issue, chose to build the Jagermech to supplement and replace the Rifleman in the AA role instead.

AA is still a role the Rifleman was meant to undertake but I did say support/AA.  If that is not clear enough to indicate that any AA role was supposed to be of a secondary concern at best for the Quickdraw, then I'll attempt to make that even clearer in the future.

Either way one LRM-10 is far inferior in terms of any kind of support to two AC-5s and two Large Lasers.

So no matter how you slice it the Quickdraw is a poor replacement for the Rifleman in any role the Rifleman performs.

But as I granted if you use it in different roles it's actually not a terrible mech.  Not great either.

[Charistoph]

who says it was ever created as a AA mech? it just says it was designed to replace the rifleman. which did both AA and direct frontline battle. the latter role being one the rifleman was very poor at, but had been forced into frequently. given that riflemen were in shorter supply at the time (per the fluff for the jagermech, which was designed around the same time) it makes sense that they'd develop a mainline combatant to replace riflemen on the frontlines and allow them to be moved rearwards into the AA duty they were meant for. the Davions, faced with a similar issue, chose to build the Jagermech to supplement and replace the Rifleman in the AA role instead.

That doesn't fly with the dates involved.  Nor was the Rifleman designed to be a frontline fighter.  Sure, there's the 3C, but even with that it still doesn't approach the role the Quickdraw plays at whatsoever.  Designed to cover and bodyguard the Rifleman, maybe, but not replace it.

If it was replacing the Grasshopper, Guillotine, or Exterminator, I could see it, but the Rifleman is just such a different duck of a Mech completely that the replacement theory just doesn't fly.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

My favorite example of "thoroughly bungled idea" is a WarShip: the Sovetskii Soyuz. The Soyuz was the product of a cruiser arms race touched off by the Lyrans introducing the Tharkad-class. The Star League spent 50 years looking at the Tharkad and asking themselves "how do we beat this?"

The answer was to design a Heavy Cruiser that was slower, more poorly armored, more lightly armed, had no point defenses, carried half the fighter compliment and had two fewer drop collars.

[monbvol]

My favorite example of "thoroughly bungled idea" is a WarShip: the Sovetskii Soyuz. The Soyuz was the product of a cruiser arms race touched off by the Lyrans introducing the Tharkad-class. The Star League spent 50 years looking at the Tharkad and asking themselves "how do we beat this?"

The answer was to design a Heavy Cruiser that was slower, more poorly armored, more lightly armed, had no point defenses, carried half the fighter compliment and had two fewer drop collars.

Some of that is due to rules changes without the designs themselves being properly re-done.

[Giovanni Blasini]

Some of that is due to rules changes without the designs themselves being properly re-done.

Yeah, that's more the result of rules and lore drift over the past 30+ years.  Though I'd also argue the Black Lion IIwas the counter to the Tharkad, coming out just a year later.  The Soyuz feels like a rush-built product, debuting in 2742, with 400 mass-produced before the end of the Star League.

[idea weenie]

How about the Hussar?

A 30-ton 10/15 Mech that carries an IS ERLL.

One and a half tons of armor.

At least it is cheap (less than 3 million C-Bills)

[ColBosch]

I will not tolerate any Hussar slander.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

It's not slander if it's true.

[Paul]

A 30-ton 10/15 Mech that carries an IS ERLL.

One and a half tons of armor.

Doesn't matter how much armor it has if it's never in range of anything to get shot at. I'm sure Hussar pilot training is about 44 hours/week learning what LRM launchers look like from 2km away. Need to know what model of Hunchback is over there? Hussar pilots can tell you, because the ones that can't are ded. DED.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

That's great if they're only ever deployed on salt pans.

[ColBosch]

That's great if they're only ever deployed on salt pans.

This is the SLDF. They specialized. They had a 'Mech that was precision-engineered and thoroughly field-tested to die in cities. They had an IFV with a laser in every firing arc but no infantry bay. If there was a 2km stretch of open ground, then by Cameron they had a battalion of Hussars assigned to it.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

They're the same people who bought a stupidly expensive assault class scout mech, then realized it was a big, steaming pile of dog poo.  Not all their decisions were well-considered.

[Paul]

That's great if they're only ever deployed on salt pans.

They buy Mechs in bulk lots. Some modern countries buy less rifles for their infantry than they buy a single 'Mech model. So, yes, they would only deploy Hussars in terrain they're suited for 99% of the time, because they can.

But to your point: that's also why 'Mechs like the Wasp and Stinger are much more common.

[Kit deSummersville]

That's great if they're only ever deployed on salt pans.

There are plenty of places where visibility for a 12 meter tall robot of war is a kilometer or more. Especially from another 12 meter tall robot of war.

[ColBosch]

There are plenty of places where visibility for a 12 meter tall robot of war is a kilometer or more. Especially from another 12 meter tall robot of war.

*nods* The Hussar is meant to snipe by the company at enemies, then scatter at incredible speeds only to reform and snipe again. Not much can withstand hits from a dozen ERLLs at a time. It's not perfect, but I think it's a reasonable compromise.

And it's nowhere as ugly as the Yeoman.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Is there anything as ugly as a Yeoman?

[Hellraiser]

How about the Hussar?

A 30-ton 10/15 Mech that carries an IS ERLL.

One and a half tons of armor.

At least it is cheap (less than 3 million C-Bills)

1.  It's a 9/14 mech but who's counting right?
2.  How dare you sir!


3A:  Could the Hussar use Endo to double the armor, yes, sure.
3B:  Could the Hussar use an XL to triple the Armor & add Electronics  (Yes, its called the Royal Hussar)
3C:  As stated above, the ERLL allows it to dispatch Wasp/Stingers freely & moving 10+ Hexes means LRM mechs aren't hitting it in that 2 hex band where they can out-range it.

I will not tolerate any Hussar slander.

Well Said!

[JadeHellbringer]

Is there anything as ugly as a Yeoman?

A Penthiselea. Though both are surprisingly handy in a fight, actually.

[Ruger]

A Penthiselea. Though both are surprisingly handy in a fight, actually.

Part of me wants to make a really bad joke about hands and the Yeoman not exactly going together.

But let’s not and say we did.

Ruger

[Garagegamer]

Firestarter and Panthers. Initially they look good and are tough but there are mechs in their classes that can do better.