Author Topic: What is the issue with Aerospace? Why is it supposedly "unpopular" with players?  (Read 8223 times)

paladin2019

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I need to take some time to do that and construct a self-designed Quick Guide.  That usually helps me figure out things, especially if few/no one locally knows how and we can't use it often.  Helped out with Protomechs.
Psssst. Get a copy of BattleTech Compendium and update it.
<-- first 'mech I drove as a Robotech destroid pilot way back when

Charistoph

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Psssst. Get a copy of BattleTech Compendium and update it.

Pfft, which one?  There was two.
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paladin2019

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Pfft, which one?  There was two.
There is only one BTC (even if there are two on my shelf). If I had meant the the preceding BTM:ROW or subsequent BTC:ROW I would have said that.
<-- first 'mech I drove as a Robotech destroid pilot way back when

Charistoph

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There is only one BTC (even if there are two on my shelf). If I had meant the the preceding BTM:ROW or subsequent BTC:ROW I would have said that.

Sorry, there was 3 printings of them, the last being printed in 1995.  Some minor changes happened in each, I believe.

Even then, I don't think they line up completely with Total Warfare.
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paladin2019

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The last printing was the year after it had been superseded by BTC:ROW (which doesn't contain AeroTech)? Sure <shrug>
<-- first 'mech I drove as a Robotech destroid pilot way back when

Mostro Joe

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Row was the First compendium book I bought. Great Memories.

idea weenie

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I just put a fan rule design concept in that forum about making Wet Navy Vessels a threat to Space Warships by putting them on a similar scale that would keep them out of orbit which is one way to do it. Both of those do however take away from the principal setting builder though so I don't actually know if I'd want them to be made canon but I do look forward to gaming out a capital scale sea Carrier Task Force against an orbiting Warship.

One nice thing about ground to orbit with energy weapons is that ground units can ignore the atmosphere range reduction (the ground energy weapon is adjusted to the local atmosphere, while the orbital ship is not).  Here is the post stating so

Cannonshop

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Perilously close to House Rules here, so I'll divert away and look at something else.

What is the general characterization of Warships in the printed canon?

They crash, they burn, they die.  They're terrifying atrocitymakers, or they're expensive casualties to punch up that 'things have got see-ree-usss'.

That's the characterization based on how warships appear in the fiction, when they bother appearing.

Basicallly they're there, like Mr. Worf, to lose fights in order to show how tough or badass the opponent is.

Okay, so now, what is the general character of ASF in the setting?

anyone?

if you go by fictional depiction, fighters are almost a non-factor, they're irrelevant, or they're manned missiles to shoot down warships by ramming them in the bridge so the 'mechwarriors can look cool rescuing the Khan.

is a picture forming here?

What they are NOT doing, for the most part, is successfully influencing events.  The warships are a sideshow at best, most often just a display of how thoroughly important a given event is by dying violently in it, while the fighters are ineffectual, they never stop a landing or have any significant impact on what's going on.

taken together, what, then, is the self-insert appeal of playing these??

When you sit down at the table with your players, do they want to be redshirts (or expensive redshirts) or do they want to be the heroes?  For the most part, Aerospace doesn't present fictional heroes, or examples where players are likely to see themselves as being the heroes.  This, unfortunately, scales up from fighters through Dropships to Warships.

There is no point you can find (Fiction or sourcebook), where a reader says, "thank god the warship survived" or "those aerospace fighters saved the day."

We have that with Infantry, and we have it with Tankers, and yes, even 'mechwarriors.  but in terms of the chief marketing for the game as a whole, Aerospace is a tacked on thing that is largely, if not completely, irrelevant.

Thus, not much attraction for the core market, who stuck with Battletech because of the FICTION and the detailed sourcebooks and the scenarios in those books...and the setting.

The undercurrent is made more apparent when you consider that Compendium had Aerospace rules, then dropped them, and Compendium ROW sold more copies after the drop.  That BMR went through a revision and was still a good seller, and that with Aero reintroduced in Total Warfare (integrating AT2 to a severely limited degree), very few players are willing to wade through it to figure out how to play Aerospace.

and why would they?  There's shit for heroes to model on.  The biggest space/aerospace/naval conflict to date (outside historicals) was a one-sided wash that showcased Aerospace and Naval forces as blunderingly, obviously, completely inept.


NOT a lot to attract new fans with that.  I'd almost say before looking at revamp of the combat rules, one should begin with looking at some way to make Aerospace relevant enough to get casual readers interested.

Without the fanbase, a revamped set of rules is going to do exactly what AT1, Battlespace, and AT2 did-which is filling the overstock/unsold bin at your FLGS.

wanna know why Star Wars sells? because of Rogue Squadron.  the game mechanics only has a passing impact on popularity.  There's no Rogue Squadron type product for Battletech's Aerospace.
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Cannonshop

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Okay, last post was pretty long, and I apologize if it looks like I'm beating a dead horse into toxic gradeschool glue.

What Aerospace needs,  is a push in the fiction, where its unique properties aren't a millstone, but a feature.  Jobs where "Well, we can't use a 'mech for that", stories (MULTIPLE) where ground forces are 'cargo', the players on the stage are ship captains and fighter pilots, and the battles are written not as one-sided mudstomps, but as exciting tactical, strategic moves with actual relevance to the events in the main line.

Something like a series of stories focused on a Fighter Wing with a dropship, interfering in the enemy's resupply or advance in deep space, or a story where a couple lances of fighters stop a Bandit force from getting away with it, or a patrol dropship saves civilians from bieng sold as slaves.

The kind of events where a battlemech might even be a HINDRANCE in other words-something to make Aero into the heroes, if only as a side-story to the main event.

"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."

AlphaMirage

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Agreed Cannonshop, its part of the reason they feature so heavily in my fan fics.

One of the my main POVs in the Katherine, White Wolf Series is basically a mashup of Captain Adama and Global in command of the whole 2nd SLDFleet fighting against the Clans and Word of Blake. I love that guy. Aerospace Commanders are important (but not necessarily key mostly due to scarcity) in the Golden Lion Series as well. I think I've only actually written three or four mechs fights in the latest installment and at least as many Aerospace engagements.

Aerospace SHOULD matter for the greater war efforts and campaign goals. Indeed the whole war effort is carried on their back (unless its an intra-planetary fight), there is no separation in rules and lore. As you've mentioned many times, Battletech Empires are Archipelagoes in a dark sea of stars upon which Aerospace dwells.

Battlemechs can't fight the enemy unless you can get them somehow, which is typically by Dropships. Now it is possible to operate a dropship without air superiority (land it out of sortie or detection range from Aerospace and reposition if you are discovered) but it is tricky.

Cannonshop

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Agreed Cannonshop, its part of the reason they feature so heavily in my fan fics.

One of the my main POVs in the Katherine, White Wolf Series is basically a mashup of Captain Adama and Global in command of the whole 2nd SLDFleet fighting against the Clans and Word of Blake. I love that guy. Aerospace Commanders are important (but not necessarily key mostly due to scarcity) in the Golden Lion Series as well. I think I've only actually written three or four mechs fights in the latest installment and at least as many Aerospace engagements.

Aerospace SHOULD matter for the greater war efforts and campaign goals. Indeed the whole war effort is carried on their back (unless its an intra-planetary fight), there is no separation in rules and lore. As you've mentioned many times, Battletech Empires are Archipelagoes in a dark sea of stars upon which Aerospace dwells.

Battlemechs can't fight the enemy unless you can get them somehow, which is typically by Dropships. Now it is possible to operate a dropship without air superiority (land it out of sortie or detection range from Aerospace and reposition if you are discovered) but it is tricky.

I"ve featured it heavily in a recent collaboration with Monbvol, and there's the ridiculous number of Ngo Stories, but I do it because I know it doesn't fit the editorial direction at Catalyst.

see, the problem works out like this: it's an interstellar setting, but the focus is on a specialist ground warfare arm.  That means they kind of MUST avoid doing heavily aerospace or naval for licensing and editorial reasons-aka giving attention to Naval/Aerospace really DOES push the 'mechwarrior off his pedestal-or at least, that's the fear at the editorial level.

and it's a reasonable fear.  Effective aerospace and now your 'mechwarriors might not live to see their glorious ground action, which in turn might end up not being so pivotal if the aerospace/naval arm actually does their job correctly, and who wants to play occupation trooper?

so there's a REASON Aerospace gets short-shrift...but it's also why it doesn't sell.
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Col Toda

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I am starting to agree with the complete revamping of the Aerospace rules . Preferably before some of the original writers fully retire . Best include those that broke the system in the past and forced rewriting them in the first place .

Mechanics that need to be better codified. Over lapping KF fields ( Ice Transport ) . Rediscovering  of better jump engines . Possibly different FTL system . Some AU work has been done by one or two of the writers of Jade Falcon Sourcebook. The biggest nonsensical issue some of the old Gaurd had was LAMs having arbitrary restrictions that Quad Vee don't. 

My biggest issues is how it intersects the ground game. Just how  ridiculously vulnerable a grounded dropship is routinely is . As far as I have seen Deep space engagements have the least Issues.

The Abstraction mechanics of Support points expended just rings hollow .
« Last Edit: 03 March 2024, 10:08:19 by Col Toda »

AlphaMirage

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I actually think grounded dropships should be vulnerable, that's why they should only stay down as long as necessary to recover troops in enemy territory. If you want your dropship to safely shut down its engines (rather than operate in condition yellow all the time) then secure a starport for them, and put a guard around it to protect it.

Daemion

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To the original post:

If my interaction with some people on this forum is any indication, I think it might be the complete change in weapon performance, and the range shifts involved with the scales. 

It goes to a bit more realistic approach compared to the comically unrealistic ground ranges if you don't try to wrap your imagination around why there's such a difference. 

Let's start with range.  Instead of individual weapon ranges, you now have solid range bands based on the unit, and different weapons have a reach to one of these bands.  (Sure, the optional rule for tracking individual weapon ranges at the new scale is stated in the core rules.  But, being optional, I doubt there are many who switch over to use it.) 

It's a pretty drastic shift from BattleTech's ground combat.

And, then there are the modifiers.  Hexes traveled doesn't give you the hefty defensive modifiers as you would get in the ground game.  Sure, we are talking aircraft here, who can't presumably juke side-to-side so readily or move as erratically as a unit in contact with the ground moving at velocities that don't impart problems with aerodynamics.  But, again, it's a drastic enough change as to be unrecognizable from the parent game.

It really is a completely different game in many respects, and that could be an easy turn-off for people who don't want to have to remember yet another set of rules.

I personally do and don't mind at the same time.  I've played so many different styles of games that I don't mind being the guy that knows aero and can advise the guys who need to run the fighters that are making an appearance in a ground game. 

My quibbles and praises have a lot to do with the concepts behind in universe performances.  I like that the new scales show the weapons for the ground go well beyond what's shown at the ground level.  But, at the same time, some of that performance is baffling, like how large ships that are seemingly ponderous in their movement get a magical armor shield wall and can't have specific items damaged without risking the destruction of an entire vessel.  Especially if they're a dropship sitting nice and duck-like on the ground.

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General308

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As mentioned TW's air rules are a mess.  Air movement and air combat are at opposite ends of the book.  Most of the movement section is layered like an onion, space first then atmos then maybe on-ground-mapsheet.  Small craft, aero, and conventional movement exist in a soup with each other, maybe it should've had all the small craft stuff in the back ("here's how these are different").  Aero heat is with the rest of the heat rules.  Air combat covers ground strikes, but shooting back is in the normal combat chapter.  Control loss is in the movement section, though most control loss is probably from getting shot at.



TW's layout in general is a mess.  The number one thing they could do to help players would be to redo that book and lay things out in the book in a manor that make sense.   It has always felt like they changed the order things were in the book from past books just to be different and no other reason. TW's rules as a whole do not flow well and it makes no sense because none of the past Main rule books had this problem.   

Daemion

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On the layout of Total Warfare, it doesn't help that the Aero Section is largely a direct copy/paste of the AT:2 book, optional rules and all.  I know, I still have my copy of AT2, and when TW came out, I went through it with a fine-tooth comb to see what changes were actually made.

For a tournament level book, the fact that you have three different ways to play out ground interaction is ... wasting page space that could have gone elsewhere.

Between a separate low altitude map, a separate radar map, or actual rules for aero units on many, many ground maps, pick one!  Make that the standard.  The rest should have been in TacOps.


And, when it comes right down to it, I think the only rules most people want out of Aero is the ground interaction rules.  In fact, you don't even need to go beyond what AT1 did - set up the attack run for the BT game in question, and then let it fly.  All that would be required is the hit location tables and crit effects for the fighters.* 

Also, grounded DropShips as objective pieces for the ground games.  I, personally, want to see DropShips that are effectively giant buildings, easily critted to ineffectiveness instead of having to plow through walls of armor that shouldn't rightly have that kind of reach, and then risk demolishing the craft entirely as you quickly chew through its structural integrity.  (It's one thing if the ship's on the move and airborn.  But, on the ground?)

That's where the introduction for Aero should rightly start.  Add-ons to the core ground game. 

* - Sounds like there's been a set of support rules which allows you to effectively 'purchase' attack runs, so you wouldn't even have to stress over whether there should be any return flybys or which direction they come from and how soon.  If you've paid for it, you get it.
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Daemion

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Warships are whole other can of worms. I always felt the BTU having minimal reliance on space battleships gave it a unique feel but space dreadnoughts and space gallons have become so ingrained into the sci-fi genre as a whole, every one wants to see the biggest ships duke it out. Changing the cost so relying on Dropships and aerospace fighters becomes more practical as in universe would help but I really think it comes down to everyone wanting to see 2 Leviathans trade nukes.     

It's too bad that we can't have Captain Harlock style pirate ships plying the space lanes.  If there were small numbers of these ships overall, I could see the only reason a pirate ship wouldn't set up shop in a flag-waving star system is that eventually it would have to face off against a house navy vessel.  So it could come in, help establish air superiority for a ground raid, but would eventually have to hoist the sails and get out of there, or risk being demolished.

This could even be done for small mercenary 'privateer' bands.

The Dark Age could have been a great time for this. 

Technically, so could the 3rd Succession War period.

Sadly, putting that in would be a huge retcon.
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Daemion

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You will never get a satisfactory believable answer to this.  Becuase the honest answer is: "but then we wouldn't get mech on mech combat."  The core premise of this setting is giant stompy robots.  Against all logic about why this is not the optimal method of waging war.

Only if Mechs are also rare.  The aerospace argument can be answered by simply having the conflict happen 'locally'.  You have neo-feudalistic lords and fiefs on any given planet, leading to all kinds of potential for conflict.  Planets are more than a giant city, and have lots of room for rival nations to form behind a contest in who gets the planetary throne, or control of a particular parcel of land and whatever industry/population happens to be on it.

Make the Mech conflict more easily resorted to from having so many easily available, and you're set.  No need to get in a dropper and risk getting shot down if Militias and Malcontents have scores of Mechs scrapped together from whole battlefields of yore as well as freshly minted ones from local garage assembly group, or the fresh supply just shipped in from the Imperial Manufacturers.  If you ease the rarety of the BattleMech, but still maintain its superiority over conventional forces, you can have your Mech Battles without having to worry about how someone got to the surface.  (Hint: A lot of them were already there.)

And, you can still have your interstellar Merc trade as battlefields open up around a region of space.  No need to make a hot-drop raid when you can have a writ of passage and an officially stamped contract that puts you down as a supplement to one side or another in an ongoing conflict. And, you don't have to worry necessarily about being the only force to get to a situation on time, because the conflicts will usually have been going on long enough that there really may not be a rush, except on missing out.



And, since I'm on the subject of getting Mechs into Mech battles, I'm going to float this little idea out there as a way to bridge the ground game and any potential Air&Space game:  Why not bring back AirMechs/LAMs?

I know why the concept was dropped for a time, but it looks like we should be past that now, especially if you change out how things transform, or even create simple specialized designs which don't transform.  And, this could apply to other environments as well as Air&Space.  Want a good naval game for BattleTech? Break out the AquaMechs.  The old Viper second-line Mech could be the basis for a non-transformable AirMech.

When I mean change the way it transforms, I mean more than going simply bimodal.  One of the common things I see in most anime Variable Form Mecha is the tendency to put the legs behind.  Why not take a cue from Ender's Game for your space Mechs?  Have the legs pull up to become the nose and act as extra armor for the rest of the craft when in an environment where they're nothing more than added weight?  Or the arms? 

Get creative!  How would a Warhammer heavy bomber look if it transformed?  If you see the torso armor as foldout wings, and flip them down, and you bring the legs forward to create an aerodynamic nose, you get something that might look akin to a Colonial Viper, with the PPC Guns under the wing. 

Or, if you have a dedicated Space Mech, (Griffin and Beemer, I'm looking at you), when they launch into space, the could bring up their legs in front of them in a kneeling position, and lock them, and have a lot of the thrust coming from the backpack.

It's just an idea.  But, if you want to introduce something and still have your giant robot combat in it, bring in the Mech in some fashion.  It wasn't a bad idea then.  Doesn't have to be a bad idea now. 
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General308

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On the layout of Total Warfare, it doesn't help that the Aero Section is largely a direct copy/paste of the AT:2 book, optional rules and all.  I know, I still have my copy of AT2, and when TW came out, I went through it with a fine-tooth comb to see what changes were actually made.

For a tournament level book, the fact that you have three different ways to play out ground interaction is ... wasting page space that could have gone elsewhere.

Between a separate low altitude map, a separate radar map, or actual rules for aero units on many, many ground maps, pick one!  Make that the standard.  The rest should have been in TacOps.


And, when it comes right down to it, I think the only rules most people want out of Aero is the ground interaction rules.  In fact, you don't even need to go beyond what AT1 did - set up the attack run for the BT game in question, and then let it fly.  All that would be required is the hit location tables and crit effects for the fighters.* 

Also, grounded DropShips as objective pieces for the ground games.  I, personally, want to see DropShips that are effectively giant buildings, easily critted to ineffectiveness instead of having to plow through walls of armor that shouldn't rightly have that kind of reach, and then risk demolishing the craft entirely as you quickly chew through its structural integrity.  (It's one thing if the ship's on the move and airborn.  But, on the ground?)

That's where the introduction for Aero should rightly start.  Add-ons to the core ground game. 

* - Sounds like there's been a set of support rules which allows you to effectively 'purchase' attack runs, so you wouldn't even have to stress over whether there should be any return flybys or which direction they come from and how soon.  If you've paid for it, you get it.

Speaking of tourny level rule book has anyone ever brought an airship to a tourny style game.  I still say those shouldn't have been in and Artillery should have stayed.  At lest people use artillery.

Daemion

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I couldn't tell you.  Of the few GenCon game events I got to attend over the years since the introduction of TW, I can't say that I've seen one. 

Still, the page count dedicated to the alternate forms of Aero Ground Interaction would have probably been enough to swap out for the Artillery rules as laid out in the old BMR. 

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Retry

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Well, the Wolves are now in charge of Terra and it seems they're going to have at least their hundred-year ilClan.  Considering the general Clan view on these things, I'm not seeing a viable path to resurrect the LAM in-universe.

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I could see the Dragon trying to resurrect them as a means to try to come up with some sort of advantage.  Just because Terra becomes the ground of stagnation doesn't mean it has to apply to the other houses.
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They can, as long as they can retain their independence from the forming 3rd Star League.  I don't think the overarching plot is leaning in that direction, though.

Daemion

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Well, you only limit yourself if you decide you want to.  [shrug]


And, since I'm on a bit of a lore tangent, there is something from the current Aero rules that I wish had been more thoroughly explored officially, and personally wouldn't want to see it completely go away. That would be the range bands and the low-altitude scale and even high-altitude/space scale.

I have long concluded that the magic nature of BT armor, among many other variables, is one of the determining factors for the 'effective' ground ranges.  So, that there is a different performance for Airborne units at high velocities which warrant playing at the different altitude scales is fascinating.  Sure, they have to enter the 'map' hex occupied by a ground unit to attack it.  But against another aero unit, they can engage at the increased ranges.

I personally look at the range bands kind of like the full effective sensor range when armor isn't the deciding factor.  And I personally like using this as a basis for comparison against other settings that don't have the magic armor plus mobility effect that I envision BT ground units having.  So, I honestly don't want to lose that.  I could actually see using the AT2-style rules for emulating modern warfare a bit more readily.

But, if we're to keep that, I would want a little more consistency across the board.  I think grounded DropShips should make great Anti-Aircraft emplacements that can engage aero units at the longer appropriate ranges, and think it should extend to dedicated AA units if we're going to keep things at that scale.  Maybe some balancing factor can make things be equal, or maybe not.  If there's a reason ground engagements work, give the ground units that unspoken of advantage. It would certainly make for an interesting challenge.

But, in the end, I would rather better consistency and integration between the two games once we get the new AeroTech:Revised.  (I'm banking on its eventuality and not mere possibilty, personally.)



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ColBosch

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Well, the Wolves are now in charge of Terra and it seems they're going to have at least their hundred-year ilClan.  Considering the general Clan view on these things, I'm not seeing a viable path to resurrect the LAM in-universe.

QuadVees and Interface Cockpits have been adopted, at least on a small scale, by the Clans. The Clans are ludicrously traditional and hidebound only as far as it gives them an advantage or a sense of moral superiority. If they find a valid use for LAMs, then by Kerensky, they'll bring them back.

That said, it wouldn't take much to include them in a future edition of the core rulebook. They act like 'Mechs in standard mode and WiGE in AirMech mode. Their use in fighter mode can be mentioned as being in the aerospace book. Then you need less than a paragraph to explain their conversion special rule, with perhaps a note saying that if not using aerospace rules, a LAM that converts to fighter mode is assumed to have retreated, just like moving off a map edge.
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LAMs are a whole other discussion
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Charistoph

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QuadVees and Interface Cockpits have been adopted, at least on a small scale, by the Clans. The Clans are ludicrously traditional and hidebound only as far as it gives them an advantage or a sense of moral superiority. If they find a valid use for LAMs, then by Kerensky, they'll bring them back.

That said, it wouldn't take much to include them in a future edition of the core rulebook. They act like 'Mechs in standard mode and WiGE in AirMech mode. Their use in fighter mode can be mentioned as being in the aerospace book. Then you need less than a paragraph to explain their conversion special rule, with perhaps a note saying that if not using aerospace rules, a LAM that converts to fighter mode is assumed to have retreated, just like moving off a map edge.

Ehhh, The QuadVees aren't a good example of adoption.  Only the Horses (their creator) has adopted them as far as I know, and likely to be the only Clan to do so, at least for front-line and Trueborn units.  For the rest of the Clans, Trueborn MechWarriors have too much pride to share a cockpit with another.  The Freeborns might be willing to, but they need to convince their lords and masters that it's worth the Trials to acquire them.  I don't even see the Wolves accepting Tripods for the Trueborns or the Super-Heavies for that same reason.

LAMs are in a similar position.  Clan Warriors do not cross-train, which is required for a single pilot to run a LAM.  In order to get around that then, you need to use dual-cockpits, and they would need to work as a team within that cockpit, which Jade Falcon has demonstrated to not work with Clan Warriors.

Now, with the Snow Ravens having a strong aerospace focus, they might be the only Clan that would even try to use LAMs, but I wouldn't put money on it.

There's also the thing about the naughty Blakists using a lot of them in that kerfuffle they caused, which might sour some of the Spheroid Houses.

The Confederation was the only major house not up their eyes in fighting like mad until they went after Alaric on Terra.  Most of the Periphery states simply don't have the budget to develop or build "new" technologies.

There are some options to approach it, but that's going to go in to Fan Design territory way to quickly, so I'll just stop there.
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General308

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Okay, last post was pretty long, and I apologize if it looks like I'm beating a dead horse into toxic gradeschool glue.

What Aerospace needs,  is a push in the fiction, where its unique properties aren't a millstone, but a feature.  Jobs where "Well, we can't use a 'mech for that", stories (MULTIPLE) where ground forces are 'cargo', the players on the stage are ship captains and fighter pilots, and the battles are written not as one-sided mudstomps, but as exciting tactical, strategic moves with actual relevance to the events in the main line.

Something like a series of stories focused on a Fighter Wing with a dropship, interfering in the enemy's resupply or advance in deep space, or a story where a couple lances of fighters stop a Bandit force from getting away with it, or a patrol dropship saves civilians from bieng sold as slaves.

The kind of events where a battlemech might even be a HINDRANCE in other words-something to make Aero into the heroes, if only as a side-story to the main event.

You are not wrong stories would be nice.  Then again AT2 rule set is not great.  I would really prefer a new Battlespace style game

Cannonshop

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You are not wrong stories would be nice.  Then again AT2 rule set is not great.  I would really prefer a new Battlespace style game

Here's the thing I see, and maybe I'm all wet in seeing it, but The Rules Aren't The Core Problem.  Indecision about how they were presented? sure, that's "A" problem, but it's also a symptom of the real problem.

We have all these different, conflicting, rulesets inside the same ruleset, because of the core problem.

We have the scaling issues ALSO because of that core problem, and the lack of fiction support is ALSO a symptom of the core problem.

The problem is, Aerospace isn't important enough to get right.

That problem, in turn, comes from a much bigger problem.

"We have this, what do we DO with it??" Says the generic dev, late (or early) on a weekend night, sitting at his macbook or desktop, with a deadline on Monday.

There's little to no consistency among the devs (or the fanbase) as to what it Should be.

Only that it's a sci-fi game without ground based Stargates, so logically this thing should exist.   Nobody can agree on what it should look like or be, so it gets an occasional rules polish from stuff that they didn't make go into another game, maybe add some fluff, and of course designs, but nobody can agree on how it should play out.

The handling of Aerospace isn't so much a system, as it is throwing whatever good idea happens to be mathematically somewhat sound on a page and hoping for the best, so you can go back to polishing the aspects that you already know works.

What's worse, is us.  WE, the Players and Fans, demanding contradictory things from those line developers, because we all 'think' we've got the ideal solution that will make it all make sense, but WE can't agree on what will work to do that, how can we expect THEM to?

You like Battlespace rules, consider why.

Battlespace is in the Battletech universe, but...it's internally consistent and was developed as its own game-it's not trying to patch across using paradoxes, and it failed commercially.

I got my copy from the 'half off overstock' bin at the game store.  I hadn't even known it was released before it had already failed commercially.

Think about that, think about what that means.
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Lance Leader

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  I'm cautiously optimistic about about future aerospace in Battletech.  The Total Warfare ruleset, despite being IMHO awfully written, is an improvement to what we had in Aerotech 2, mainly by getting rid of the whole hex 0808 nonsense among other things.  Alpha Strike has also made some key improvements to air-support by de-powering bombs and by integrated fighters into the main map.  These are baby steps in the right direction but it is getting better.

  Going forward I think the main thing is make aerospace assets a fun addition to the base mech combat game.  So basically focusing on the gameplay above everything else so that air-support can be seamlessly and intuitively integrated into a ground battle in a fun way.  Aerospace should be about supplementing the ground game without superseding it. 

 

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