Author Topic: Mars Rising: Marian Hegemony IV  (Read 171048 times)

Adacas

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Re: Mars Rising: Marian Hegemony IV
« Reply #780 on: 05 February 2021, 14:40:19 »
No, you have the information- 3099 new mech & vehicle lines on Addhara to replace what was destroyed on Perdition and Illyria getting a 'first' of some sort to produce BA in 3139.

It will be the first BA Factory of the ATC, since the other one is from Marian Arms Inc that up to what point is it a hegemonic company?

Colt Ward

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Re: Mars Rising: Marian Hegemony IV
« Reply #781 on: 05 February 2021, 15:58:08 »
Like I said- I hope they get the Cataphract and a updated CN9-H, but right now that is not in the cards.  Their source of heavy and assault mechs would be the salvage purchasing teams they had going since the Jihad.  Taking the old CTF-1X you can get some better performance giving it a HPPC & LB-10X for a LFE & DHS to drop weight- add some RL10s too!

Probably a pretty sweet gig sitting on Galatea or Arc Royal as a Marian buying up salvage from mercs to transport back to the Hegemony for rebuilds.
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Adacas

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Re: Mars Rising: Marian Hegemony IV
« Reply #782 on: 05 February 2021, 16:08:08 »
Like I said- I hope they get the Cataphract and a updated CN9-H, but right now that is not in the cards.  Their source of heavy and assault mechs would be the salvage purchasing teams they had going since the Jihad.  Taking the old CTF-1X you can get some better performance giving it a HPPC & LB-10X for a LFE & DHS to drop weight- add some RL10s too!

Probably a pretty sweet gig sitting on Galatea or Arc Royal as a Marian buying up salvage from mercs to transport back to the Hegemony for rebuilds.

What you comment is quite possible, I in my ATOW campaign put that there were "Lanistas" Marians collecting and buying parts, mechs bought from factories or second-hand sellers as well as hiring loose merc or small units for later already in Alphard To form small units that were offered both for missions to the Marian state and smaller units for various patrician houses, it would be something easy to organize giving the trusted buyer, the money, a merchant and two Mules, with the clear mission of going and bringing everything to top gear for MHAF

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Re: Mars Rising: Marian Hegemony IV
« Reply #783 on: 05 February 2021, 16:59:17 »
The Hansa had more industry but were not introduced to the mech until later AFAIK . . . like, they were just armor, infantry & space forces until the 3050s.  They were also, as of 3142, importing some of the means of production they needed.  The key point is they were a nation and developing longer than the Hegemony- they have the infrastructure producing the thousands of things needed to make a mech.
The MH has 6 mech lines, there for has "the infrastructure producing the thousands of things needed to make a mech." They even have 2 tanks (Fulcrum 3050s & Testudo 3131) lines that use more advanced tech (xl Engine , FF Armor, Ultra 10, Arrow IV). All I am saying is it is very likely the mech lines have been upgraded as well.

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Adacas

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Re: Mars Rising: Marian Hegemony IV
« Reply #784 on: 05 February 2021, 17:19:37 »
And Maultier in 3070, The Shreck CPP and the Goblin according to what appears in Era Report 3145 or was it the Field manual I always get confused , and let's not forget the Heavy LRM Carrier in 3077
« Last Edit: 05 February 2021, 17:34:36 by Adacas »

Colt Ward

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Re: Mars Rising: Marian Hegemony IV
« Reply #785 on: 05 February 2021, 19:54:15 »
The MH has 6 mech lines, there for has "the infrastructure producing the thousands of things needed to make a mech." They even have 2 tanks (Fulcrum 3050s & Testudo 3131) lines that use more advanced tech (xl Engine , FF Armor, Ultra 10, Arrow IV). All I am saying is it is very likely the mech lines have been upgraded as well.

They should have more than the 6- the question is what was produced on Addhara when built in the 3090s . . . but we do not know if they are 1 mech every 2 months or something faster- and TPTB have long shied away from telling any of that sort of information.

Additionally, the XL Engines, FF armor, and UAC/10 also have a really close source they could have been getting purchased from- Kendall . . . or long distance shipments from Son Hoa.
Colt Ward
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Adacas

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Re: Mars Rising: Marian Hegemony IV
« Reply #786 on: 05 February 2021, 19:56:24 »
Not the Arrow IV and the FF Armor are local manufacturing, from the UCA I have doubts, already in Mayor Periphery States it said that Fidelis Metals from Addhara was manufacturing FF

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Re: Mars Rising: Marian Hegemony IV
« Reply #787 on: 06 February 2021, 18:45:20 »
If you looked closer, I hypothesize a theory :

The said Imperator Automatic Ultra Class-10 is made by Imperator Automatic Weaponry of Atreus, a FWL planet known to have WoB control. Of which, MH had contact with in reconstruction of their ( MH ) facilities. Also, Majesty Metals and Manufacturing ( MMM ) located on the planet Ballad, of MoC fame, is a free and independent manufacturing world in the DA.

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ArkRoyalRavager

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Re: Mars Rising: Marian Hegemony IV
« Reply #788 on: 07 February 2021, 06:44:13 »
Fronc is made up of old Capellan, Taurian and Magistry settled worlds.  The Star League had bases & settlements there since the Reunification War, and we have indications there were states their previously besides being the center of trade routes between the TC/FS/CC/MoC.  In fact, they refurbished a old Star League (or Star League era) facility on Detroit but took investment from nearby states IIRC.  Rim Collection was producing weapons only until 'recently' when IIRC they started producing a local primitive mech at a single facility.  Randis?  Has a single facility producing a primitive mech but they got the benefit of a influx of Jag refugees.

Rim Collection is producing standard tech bug mechs by FM3145, not just the Primitive you mentioned. Randis is building standard tech Commandos, Dervishes, Warhammers and HawkWolves, in addition to the earlier primitive Firebees, Dervishes and HawkWolves. The influx you mentioned happened to anyone with the will to expand during or after the Jihad. The Hegemony hired other R&D experts like the Dr that kickstarted Ravager production. Ex Blakists fled to the Hansa and got them to SL tech level by the Imperial Crusade against them.

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None of which stack up to the Hegemony producing a handful of mechs along with vehicles and a pair of BA.  Heck, the ONLY other Periphery power that builds two different battle armor (and they are the same class!) is the Canopians, and THEY got to that point by CapCon assistance.

Canopus has CapCon assistance but even more from an outside source(possibly the true Wolverines) but then I never attempted to compare the Hegemony with Canopus anyway. They're the preeminent Periphery power since the death of Jeffrey Calderon.

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The Rim Collection trading with the Magistry of Canopus for that single reference is indicative of nothing.

So in essence when proper source material is provided it is ignored. The example you provided is for the constant mercantile trade, but the rare long-distance trade is good for the Hegemony as long as there is technology transfer in corporate deals from the Lyrans.

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Everyone bought into Stone's peace initiatives to one level or another, the Marians might have barely followed along like the Clans (no matter what, a more militarized society) rather than buying in wholesale like the FedSuns.

Which is directly contradicted by what was said in Sword of Sedition. It was common knowledge at least among the AFFS High Command even after the Jihad ended till the Dark Age that nobody except the Republic bought into Stone's peace initiatives wholesale. Even the AFFS hedged their bets. The Marians would never bother to follow it because they literally started from a non-existent industrial base during the Jihad. Others could rebuild or mothball, they had to build new ones.

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Finally, you seem to be implying the Hegemony was under a single leader with a single vision- they were not.  Julius, Cassius (d 3106), Lucian (d 3128)and Ignatius.  The FM specifically notes that Ignatius has had less aggressive policies against un-aligned neighboring systems.  Besides having to rebuild the I Legion twice in roughly 20 years, the other Legios were also engaged in widespread fighting.  FM3145 says that settling with Lothians have only just begun to recover from the constant strain.

The Caesars are near-autocratic leaders. Each successive Caesar indeed led the nation according to their vision, as evidenced by their deeds.

Adacas

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Re: Mars Rising: Marian Hegemony IV
« Reply #789 on: 08 February 2021, 08:22:01 »
If you looked closer, I hypothesize a theory :

The said Imperator Automatic Ultra Class-10 is made by Imperator Automatic Weaponry of Atreus, a FWL planet known to have WoB control. Of which, MH had contact with in reconstruction of their ( MH ) facilities. Also, Majesty Metals and Manufacturing ( MMM ) located on the planet Ballad, of MoC fame, is a free and independent manufacturing world in the DA.

TT

The WoB Connection was until Julius deposed Sean and purged his government of WoB-like people for convenience, then the short relationship violently after the Circinus War and the expulsion of the WoB people from the HPG, and their transfer to Comstar as an operator, having said this to 3145 manufacture CA / 5.CA / 10, Ca / 2, CA / 20 it would be very difficult if Hgemony does not manufacture them locally, the Ultra is a Tech 3050/54 a century away from its The introduction is even more difficult to tell because the hegemony could not manufacture it under license or by copying blueprints of the several times that they looted the mech and tank factories in Kendall

The Factory of Balad II is one of those that appears in the book of 3145 as independent and without stating that they manufacture specifically, it would be a good place to have visited instead of those that the IV Legio visited and to make matters worse without any garrison stipulated in the system according to Field Manual 3145, rare

Colt Ward

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Re: Mars Rising: Marian Hegemony IV
« Reply #790 on: 08 February 2021, 11:25:43 »
So in essence when proper source material is provided it is ignored. The example you provided is for the constant mercantile trade, but the rare long-distance trade is good for the Hegemony as long as there is technology transfer in corporate deals from the Lyrans.

You are ignoring the whole point of that . . . sure they have trade between- but again they have to pass through at least 3 IS realms (who will have import/export blocks) but the round trip is very time consuming and if your merchant marine is making those sort of distance trades it is not going to be very profitable.  YOUR JS are going to do more to stimulate the economy of the Inner Sphere (by providing collars to move DS around) than improving your own trade.  BT has no Silk Road or East Indies tea/spice trade, therefore going that distance has no immensely profitable reason to travel all that distance.  I gave you the reason WHY their trade would not matter as much- they are not a meeting point between two other entities.  Finally, the point was you also do not know the frequency or how many JS/DS are attached to that Rim-MoC trade route that mostly helps the Lyrans, Republic and League/Cappies.

The Hegemony built a factory in '99 and a BA facility in '39.  You are complaining because they did not do as much as you want . . . but it took them between the Jihad and '99 to build a facility to replace one lost during the conflict.  We NEVER get any sort of indication on production on ANY of the factories or lines which I mentioned.  So what if Randis built a facility if it only churns out 1 mech a month?  By the sound, the Hegemony facilities capacity is higher but again we do not know that for a fact either but you totally dismissed the point I made that the Marians could have spent their resources expanding production capacity (aka, ability to produce more of a single type unit- 1 CN9-H to 10 CN9-H a month) but IIRC they also shifted from the CN9-H to CN9-Ar.  Such a change would mean they went from producing primitive SFE & armor to standard and adding HPPC & LPPC to either their supply chain or in house production.

I never said everyone drank all of Stone's Kool-Aid . . . in fact, I implied everyone cheated but all gave lip service- even the Clans who are more militant than the Marians.  I keep bringing up the fact the Marians were buying up all the salvage from the Jihad to Gray Monday for their techs to rebuild (keeping them in practice, improving processes, getting new tech) which is one little 'cheat.'  Throw in that expanding capacity to build but throttling back that production ability is another feasible means to 'cheat' Stone's diplomatic watchdogs.  Mentioning the FS was merely to scale the Kool-Ad drinking . . . Lyrans and FedSuns followed Stone's initiatives a lot more than the Cappies & Dracs with the overall League somewhere between them.

The reason I pointed out the different Caesers is you are acting like they would all be the same- and by the write up they were not.  Ignatius seemed to be trying to assimilate systems by diplomacy & economics rather than some of the previous Caesers' military adventurism.  Cassius was still involved in a lot of recovery from the Jihad and started off the expansion of Marian abilities with that replacement factory on Addhara in '99
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Adacas

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Re: Mars Rising: Marian Hegemony IV
« Reply #791 on: 08 February 2021, 12:39:48 »

The Hegemony built a factory in '99 and a BA facility in '39.  You are complaining because they did not do as much as you want . . . but it took them between the Jihad and '99 to build a facility to replace one lost during the conflict.  We NEVER get any sort of indication on production on ANY of the factories or lines which I mentioned.  So what if Randis built a facility if it only churns out 1 mech a month?  By the sound, the Hegemony facilities capacity is higher but again we do not know that for a fact either but you totally dismissed the point I made that the Marians could have spent their resources expanding production capacity (aka, ability to produce more of a single type unit- 1 CN9-H to 10 CN9-H a month) but IIRC they also shifted from the CN9-H to CN9-Ar.  Such a change would mean they went from producing primitive SFE & armor to standard and adding HPPC & LPPC to either their supply chain or in house production.



The reason I pointed out the different Caesers is you are acting like they would all be the same- and by the write up they were not.  Ignatius seemed to be trying to assimilate systems by diplomacy & economics rather than some of the previous Caesers' military adventurism.  Cassius was still involved in a lot of recovery from the Jihad and started off the expansion of Marian abilities with that replacement factory on Addhara in '99

You have a small situation error Colt Ward, those who took time to build the Factory since the Destruction of Perdition is the ATC not the Marian Hegemony, in that period of time The Marian Hegemony helped to expand the Battlearmour Factory from Horatius to Marian Arms, I mean to another company

The same happened throughout the 3070s with Hadrian Inc on the subject of aerospace fighters and Heavy LRM Carrier.

The thing about the ATC both the Addhara Factory and Illyria is because they managed to convince Ignatius to support them economically to make the investment and expansion of capacities, nothing more than that is a good Lobby task

It is seen that the lobbyists of Marian Arms and Hadrian were better doing their thing previously, until I did not rule out that there had been more investments from those factories, what happens is that the authors do not put it

And as for the Caesares, each one gave an imprint to his mandate, both Julius and Cassius sought to expand capabilities and add teams that the hegemony did not have.

We do not know anything about Lucius, except when and where he died and little else, Ignatius decided to continue in the path of his grandfather and great-grandfather with the investment and expansion of capacities, said this except during the period of Lucius that you take that the Hegemony stopped trying to modernize and expand capabilities?
« Last Edit: 08 February 2021, 12:52:04 by Adacas »

Colt Ward

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Re: Mars Rising: Marian Hegemony IV
« Reply #792 on: 08 February 2021, 13:05:35 »
No, FM3145 says ATC built that Addhara factory . . but it is a non-issue really since BT has always been hazy on ruler/corp boundaries, and tend to wave them away.  If the Caeser had not wanted them to build a new plant it would not have happened.  In fact the sentence before in FM3145 it talks about the Hegemony investing in ATC to replace losses.  My use of 'Hegemony' in that sentence was in regards the a wholistic entity.

There is a difference between capacity and actual production- they CAN make 10 CN9-H a month, but they decide to only make 1 CN9-H a month to keep the factory running as an example.  It would be a lot easier to hide a increase in capacity from any Republic diplomatic station than it would be to hide the actual production of more mechs/tanks/etc a month.  This is important b/c the Marians would have a mission to Galatea (which has to be allowed b/c the Republic's laws) buying salvage from mercs.  FM3145 actually hints at this since with the League's reformation in '39 Ignatius ordered increased production to boost the HAF.

Actually, Ignatius is not doing what his father and grandfather did- instead of trying to take military control, he is trying diplomatic and cultural ties with unaffiliated worlds in a effort to expand the sphere of influence.  It also clearly states (stil FM3145 pg 185) Ignatius has refrained form military expansion- which would be the policy from '28 until the '40s.  The construction of a mech & veh production facility in '99 is a pretty clear indicator of Cassius military expansion policy (along with where he died) while Ignatius did not increase military production for 7 years after the Black Out.  Ignatius is also the Caeser that ordered the inclusion (as paying customers) for non-MH applicants to their war college as a means of culturally aligning those allies who had attendees.  Only when he learned the League had reformed (and could no longer play off the proto-states) did he expand production facilities.
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Adacas

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Re: Mars Rising: Marian Hegemony IV
« Reply #793 on: 08 February 2021, 14:13:31 »
No, FM3145 says ATC built that Addhara factory . . but it is a non-issue really since BT has always been hazy on ruler/corp boundaries, and tend to wave them away.  If the Caeser had not wanted them to build a new plant it would not have happened.  In fact the sentence before in FM3145 it talks about the Hegemony investing in ATC to replace losses.  My use of 'Hegemony' in that sentence was in regards the a wholistic entity.

There is a difference between capacity and actual production- they CAN make 10 CN9-H a month, but they decide to only make 1 CN9-H a month to keep the factory running as an example.  It would be a lot easier to hide a increase in capacity from any Republic diplomatic station than it would be to hide the actual production of more mechs/tanks/etc a month.  This is important b/c the Marians would have a mission to Galatea (which has to be allowed b/c the Republic's laws) buying salvage from mercs.  FM3145 actually hints at this since with the League's reformation in '39 Ignatius ordered increased production to boost the HAF.

Actually, Ignatius is not doing what his father and grandfather did- instead of trying to take military control, he is trying diplomatic and cultural ties with unaffiliated worlds in a effort to expand the sphere of influence.  It also clearly states (stil FM3145 pg 185) Ignatius has refrained form military expansion- which would be the policy from '28 until the '40s.  The construction of a mech & veh production facility in '99 is a pretty clear indicator of Cassius military expansion policy (along with where he died) while Ignatius did not increase military production for 7 years after the Black Out.  Ignatius is also the Caeser that ordered the inclusion (as paying customers) for non-MH applicants to their war college as a means of culturally aligning those allies who had attendees.  Only when he learned the League had reformed (and could no longer play off the proto-states) did he expand production facilities.


Here I agree in part, and in part not, Ignatius is different in terms of cultural assimilation, but, the expansion of Factories is something that seems to follow the path of his grandfather and great-grandfather, when building the Factory in Illyria, although If we are guided by the shattered Fortress Ignatius was rearming the V Legio and the authors dismembered it again to give him something to destroy the Camacho Cavaliers, the same with the others, but it caught my attention that green troops were sent to the front line in an insane maneuver taking into account that the Field Manual 3145 itself said that the troops and commanders of the MHAF were the most veteran of the periphery, which does not close by any side that is if and send those troops to the combat front when they should have been in Pompeii burning training tanks and doing war games with some merc unit, not be in Maximilian to be exterminated but hey

Regarding factories and states, the authors are diffuse when they want and when they want they are not in their definitions
As for the production rates, this is on account of the order to replace equipment in the different units, nobody commits suicide by making a low production so as not to replace the units lost by your troops and mercs

Even if you have the most efficient mech / tank / aero collection office in the universe in Galatea, you are not going to chain yourself and depend exclusively on that, nor on the salvage that you raise in each battle or on what you have saved that you could find.
Your production is the first thing to take into account and I do not see any Cesar count the last to his production

Remember that even CGL did not elaborate on anything about what all the Marian factories produce, neither those of Hadrian nor those of Marian Arms, we know nothing about them after the introduction of the Marauder in Horatius, neither Hadrian nor Marian arms did anything to respond to the economic advance of ATC? I really doubt it

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Re: Mars Rising: Marian Hegemony IV
« Reply #794 on: 11 February 2021, 05:36:39 »
You are ignoring the whole point of that . . . sure they have trade between- but again they have to pass through at least 3 IS realms (who will have import/export blocks) but the round trip is very time consuming and if your merchant marine is making those sort of distance trades it is not going to be very profitable.  YOUR JS are going to do more to stimulate the economy of the Inner Sphere (by providing collars to move DS around) than improving your own trade.  BT has no Silk Road or East Indies tea/spice trade, therefore going that distance has no immensely profitable reason to travel all that distance.  I gave you the reason WHY their trade would not matter as much- they are not a meeting point between two other entities.  Finally, the point was you also do not know the frequency or how many JS/DS are attached to that Rim-MoC trade route that mostly helps the Lyrans, Republic and League/Cappies.

Nobody but the authors would know that much minutiae. Regardless, the trade would exist and more importantly, there would be technology transfers especially from the Lyrans to keep the post-Jihad former FWL destabilized.

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The Hegemony built a factory in '99 and a BA facility in '39.  You are complaining because they did not do as much as you want . . . but it took them between the Jihad and '99 to build a facility to replace one lost during the conflict.  We NEVER get any sort of indication on production on ANY of the factories or lines which I mentioned.  So what if Randis built a facility if it only churns out 1 mech a month?  By the sound, the Hegemony facilities capacity is higher but again we do not know that for a fact either but you totally dismissed the point I made that the Marians could have spent their resources expanding production capacity (aka, ability to produce more of a single type unit- 1 CN9-H to 10 CN9-H a month) but IIRC they also shifted from the CN9-H to CN9-Ar.  Such a change would mean they went from producing primitive SFE & armor to standard and adding HPPC & LPPC to either their supply chain or in house production.

Exact production rates are never given, they generally don't provide that sort of numbers for a variety of reasons in and out of universe. However, when you say "expanding production capacity", then the minimal MHAF growth would be suspicious either, since they would have to have very high attrition rates in all 60 years between 3085-3145 to sink that production into replacements and other purposes.

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I never said everyone drank all of Stone's Kool-Aid . . . in fact, I implied everyone cheated but all gave lip service- even the Clans who are more militant than the Marians.  I keep bringing up the fact the Marians were buying up all the salvage from the Jihad to Gray Monday for their techs to rebuild (keeping them in practice, improving processes, getting new tech) which is one little 'cheat.'  Throw in that expanding capacity to build but throttling back that production ability is another feasible means to 'cheat' Stone's diplomatic watchdogs.  Mentioning the FS was merely to scale the Kool-Ad drinking . . . Lyrans and FedSuns followed Stone's initiatives a lot more than the Cappies & Dracs with the overall League somewhere between them.

You seem to think Stone's agents are near pervasive, near omniscient and operating with massive resources along with the ability to interdict the Marians or anybody else that engage in militarization outside the Republic's borders. Hence the necessity to even 'cheat'. Stone never bothered greatly about whatever the Marians or any other near/deep Periphery faction(including Hell's Horses) did to militarize simply because this would be tedious micromanagement. His SIS is not ComStar/WoB ROM.

And your statement of
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...rather than buying in wholesale like the FedSuns
clearly says the FedSuns demilitarized on the same level of the Republic, rather than just
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Lyrans and FedSuns followed Stone's initiatives a lot more than the Cappies & Dracs with the overall League somewhere between them
.

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The reason I pointed out the different Caesers is you are acting like they would all be the same- and by the write up they were not.  Ignatius seemed to be trying to assimilate systems by diplomacy & economics rather than some of the previous Caesers' military adventurism.  Cassius was still involved in a lot of recovery from the Jihad and started off the expansion of Marian abilities with that replacement factory on Addhara in '99

All of them would be different in personality but they would continue the native militarization effort begun by Julius to address the MHAF's supply demands.

That primitive Centurion and any other primitive or lower-tech unit production or refits would have been upgraded to TL or Advanced technology long before 3145.

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Re: Mars Rising: Marian Hegemony IV
« Reply #795 on: 11 February 2021, 10:14:06 »
...more importantly, there would be technology transfers especially from the Lyrans to keep the post-Jihad former FWL destabilized.

Correction: There COULD be technology transfers. Just because a few players think it was a good idea, there's no guarantee the Lyrans actually did it, wether due to limited resources, cultural prejudices/blind spots on the part of the decision makers, or any other reason. Remember, we're not exactly dealing with organizations with uninterrupted histories of wise and rational decision making.
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Adacas

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Re: Mars Rising: Marian Hegemony IV
« Reply #796 on: 11 February 2021, 10:40:10 »
Correction: There COULD be technology transfers. Just because a few players think it was a good idea, there's no guarantee the Lyrans actually did it, wether due to limited resources, cultural prejudices/blind spots on the part of the decision makers, or any other reason. Remember, we're not exactly dealing with organizations with uninterrupted histories of wise and rational decision making.

Touche is possible, although seeing the MUL and the variety of Highlanders and Hermit Crabs that now appear on the list does not sound that Starcorps sell mechs, and their technical service is of any problem.

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Re: Mars Rising: Marian Hegemony IV
« Reply #797 on: 11 February 2021, 13:22:46 »
Touche is possible, although seeing the MUL and the variety of Highlanders and Hermit Crabs that now appear on the list does not sound that Starcorps sell mechs, and their technical service is of any problem.

StarCorps Son Hoa facility sells to anyone by the looks of it.

Adacas

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Re: Mars Rising: Marian Hegemony IV
« Reply #798 on: 11 February 2021, 16:13:04 »
StarCorps Son Hoa facility sells to anyone by the looks of it.

That seems which leads to think that there is an established trade route between the MH and Son Hoa, and from there to the Lyran Alliance there is a step

ArkRoyalRavager

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Re: Mars Rising: Marian Hegemony IV
« Reply #799 on: 11 February 2021, 21:57:30 »
Let the trade flow!  ;D

The sources keep emphasizing everyone had higher technological levels after the Jihad, so the trade flow keeps the Hegemony expanding in other areas.

vaderi

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Re: Mars Rising: Marian Hegemony IV
« Reply #800 on: 13 February 2021, 05:27:16 »
It's worth pointing out that economies that run on slave production massively hamper the quality of goods they produce as well as their technical knowledge as a portion of their population that could be gaining technological sophistication must instead be constantly watched for signs of rebellion.

Just as an example, who do you allow to produce explosives? If it's slaves then how do you keep them from either sabotaging it or stealing it? If not slaves then where are you effectively taking skilled workers from?

For me a large portion of why the Hegemony has a hard time (though I'm still sore about the pointlessness of the attack on the Reformed FWL) is that the Hegemony has tied its economy to a model that is massively inefficient and technologically incompetent, it is honestly majorly impressive that the Hegemony produces and designs it's own BA given the general technological competence across all levels of society that are required.
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Saint

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Re: Mars Rising: Marian Hegemony IV
« Reply #801 on: 13 February 2021, 09:52:29 »
My take on how the MH deals with it is skilled labor for  military and high tech and slave labor for farming, mining, and homes of the upper echelon.

There is still a large number of citizens that will need jobs. Most Marian citizens can not afford slaves. So the actual number of slaves should be relatively small.

I would like to see a abolitionist movement rise and end slavery in the MH. Something to give a more fleshed out story.

Hopefully we will get some new fluff on the periphery powers in upcoming source books.
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Adacas

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Re: Mars Rising: Marian Hegemony IV
« Reply #802 on: 13 February 2021, 18:27:18 »
It's worth pointing out that economies that run on slave production massively hamper the quality of goods they produce as well as their technical knowledge as a portion of their population that could be gaining technological sophistication must instead be constantly watched for signs of rebellion.

Just as an example, who do you allow to produce explosives? If it's slaves then how do you keep them from either sabotaging it or stealing it? If not slaves then where are you effectively taking skilled workers from?

For me a large portion of why the Hegemony has a hard time (though I'm still sore about the pointlessness of the attack on the Reformed FWL) is that the Hegemony has tied its economy to a model that is massively inefficient and technologically incompetent, it is honestly majorly impressive that the Hegemony produces and designs it's own BA given the general technological competence across all levels of society that are required.

The issue is that the Factorys' workforce is not slave labor, in the Hadrian fluff it tells you clearly, that the recurring problem for the company's board of directors was the continuous underhand negotiations with the mafia they controlled the incipient guilds of factory employees

I agree with Saint, there must be mainly slaves in mines and fields, plus domestic slaves with whom there are extremely harsh rules about their mistreatment from the time of Julius as it is well explained in Major Periphery States.

vaderi

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Re: Mars Rising: Marian Hegemony IV
« Reply #803 on: 13 February 2021, 21:33:46 »
My take on how the MH deals with it is skilled labor for  military and high tech and slave labor for farming, mining, and homes of the upper echelon.

There is still a large number of citizens that will need jobs. Most Marian citizens can not afford slaves. So the actual number of slaves should be relatively small.

I would like to see a abolitionist movement rise and end slavery in the MH. Something to give a more fleshed out story.

Hopefully we will get some new fluff on the periphery powers in upcoming source books.

Slave economies don't function at all if there are a "small" number of slaves. For perspective, (not to make a point about slavery in real life) the US population in 1790 was ~18% slaves(or 1 in 6 people). Now that's with extremely shitty tech by Battletech standards but either you are having slaves use tech and techniques on par with the 1790s or you've invented some way to stop slave revolts from happening.

Skilled labor is important and all but requires that you pay it, which is as Adacas points out where graft and corruption spill in, and since they have modeled themselves culturally and socially after Rome, the Marians seem to have many of the same issues handling corruption that the Romans did. So we're left with an economy crippled by a dependence on slaves for agricultural and mineral wealth, and by systemic corruption in its skilled labor force. It's frankly amazing that the Marians have done as much as they have.

I too would like to see an abolitionist movement in the MH.
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Re: Mars Rising: Marian Hegemony IV
« Reply #804 on: 13 February 2021, 22:18:15 »
It is worth noting that the Hegemony is predominantly Christian, followed by Judaism, Islam and Agnostic. While Roman classical religion is there, it is only a minority.

The slave class would be small and not a major issue because the first 3 religions that come from 21st-century Terra does not practice slavery, especially Christians.

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Re: Mars Rising: Marian Hegemony IV
« Reply #805 on: 13 February 2021, 22:52:53 »
It is worth noting that the Hegemony is predominantly Christian, followed by Judaism, Islam and Agnostic. While Roman classical religion is there, it is only a minority.

The slave class would be small and not a major issue because the first 3 religions that come from 21st-century Terra does not practice slavery, especially Christians.


...  ???
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Elmoth

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Re: Mars Rising: Marian Hegemony IV
« Reply #806 on: 14 February 2021, 04:38:04 »
Slavery is an issue in the MH. It is o e of the main reasons I dislike the faction and do not consider it a viable PC option.

The population CNA be small or.large, we do not know. There are methods to prevent uprisings: monopoly in mechs and other items of war, basically. The Romans had a lot of slaves, they just were not part of some key tech bases they were using. But for primary production they were widely used.

Slavery does not mean galleys either. There were a lot of Greek teachers in Rome that were technically slaves, for example, so not all slaves will be low class either.

There had been Christian and other religion slaves across history. Medieval Serfs were slaves by all accounts, for example. So I do not buy that religion approach much, really.

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Re: Mars Rising: Marian Hegemony IV
« Reply #807 on: 14 February 2021, 11:51:33 »
Slavery does not mean galleys either.

It almost never did in Roman or Greek antiquity, either. Galley rowers were highly skilled and respected tradesmen, well paid for their work. Only in extreme circumstances were slaves used, and they were freed either immediately before or after. It makes absolutely zero sense for 90% of a vessel's crew to be enslaved(and by necessity, healthy ones with lots of muscle mass). The other 10% would be pretty much guaranteed to be dead by the time the ship next pulled ashore.
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jimdigris

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Re: Mars Rising: Marian Hegemony IV
« Reply #808 on: 14 February 2021, 18:09:57 »
The notion that galleys were manned by slaves is more Hollywood fantasy than historical fact.  The same is true for the builders of the pyramids, not that they were Roman.

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Re: Mars Rising: Marian Hegemony IV
« Reply #809 on: 14 February 2021, 20:25:36 »
I'm not condoning the practice whatsoever, but it can safely be said that any slaver nation either keeps theirs away from skilled jobs, or pays dearly for their mistake.
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