Poll

What is your plan for the Impavido line

Impavido block II
1 (11.1%)
League block III
2 (22.2%)
Essex
0 (0%)
Essex (Upgraded)
1 (11.1%)
A new Destroyer
1 (11.1%)
Frigate
0 (0%)
A Yardship
0 (0%)
Other (Please post it)
1 (11.1%)
Mixed strategy (Please post it)
0 (0%)
Eagle block II lines
0 (0%)
Impavido
3 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 9

Author Topic: Another command decision  (Read 1060 times)

Minemech

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Another command decision
« on: 28 May 2024, 14:34:02 »
 It is 3063. Katherine failed in her hijinks at a young age and became irrelevant to this timeline. The Clans have a unified invasion fleet. The Combine's Yamato Battleship is now in production. The Federated Commonwealth is in the end phases of designing its Durendal destroyer and it is rumored that it will be able to put it into production in two more years (At Melissa's direction, a naive Victor provided the High Command with ideas that he thought would make the ship better fit the fleet in 3060, delaying their production). There are also rumors swirling about the Fox Corvette's future and of the design process of a potential FedCom Battleship or equivalent to join the Avalon and Mjolnir. Furthermore, SAFE analysis division has reported that it has picked up chatter that the Clans may be arming up and upgrading existing warships. There is an intense spy war around naval assets, with seemingly endless misinformation and espionage but the League yards have been relatively safe.

 The Captain-General and Admiral Alexander are in the process of evaluating the Tamarind, Loyalty, and Atreus yards to for the development of the offensive fleet. Using knowledge gained from various exercises, simulations and experiments, the Eagle and Agamemnon designs are receiving priority upgrades (Including armor/SI and weapon design), the Venturer is in the design process and will now roll out within a year, a Battleship is currently being designed (Though there is no current intention to produce it), and other platforms are being considered but are not on the table yet.

 You have been assigned a project related to the old Impavido. In its older form the ship was highly flawed but useful. The Tamarind yards in particular can produce them at will, and there is consideration of doing so to sell them to the Confederation, but your task is to determine how to best use the two lines that are dedicated to it and how they are to be incorporated into current League doctrine. The Navy among other things has the full design specs for the Essex, and the old League class in addition to the Impavido.

 Would you try to rework the Impavido? Would you try to replace it with another destroyer or perhaps frigate? A new or tried and true design albeit an upgraded one?  A Yardship? Feel free to name a canon design you might want to model your ship after that the League would have knowledge of. They might even have the specs to some not mentioned.

 How would they be employed? Would they be independent assets or part of the larger battlegroups? How? So on and so forth.

 Understand that they are being built as Pocket Warships have been identified by the Navy as a thing, though it has not yet taken a specific action related to this matter as the Overlord A-3 itself appears harmless. The Navy is also aware of screen launchers and improvements in Steiner-Davion aerospace forces in general. SAFE currently considers Victor unstable and unreliable (Melissa is waning in popularity if still alive) and Theodore to either be under the influence of or one of the hardliners. SAFE does not know how to assess the Clan threat level, though ROM operatives believe there to be an arms buildup occurring in the homeworlds, Alshain and possibly other worlds.

 The Admiral and Captain-General have informed you that your decision will likely enter production before 3065.

 An arms race may be afoot.
 EDIT: It is rumored that the real reason for the delay of Destroyer production in the Commonwealth is an expansion of warship production lines and related infrastructure. There is industrial evidence to support this, but no definitive proof.
« Last Edit: 28 May 2024, 15:43:59 by Minemech »

Alan Grant

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Re: Another command decision
« Reply #1 on: 28 May 2024, 17:33:20 »
I'm starting to get the vibe that these threads really should be more like a Fan Design kind of thing. Your Fox one, then this. Yes it isn't just design/redesign, it's role and fluff, fair. But I'm starting to wonder if it shouldn't be more like a call for a new Impavido on that thread, complete with fluff and role info.

This is falling in around the place of us providing filler for an Alternate Universe project. That's the vibe. Which I wouldn't mind as a one-time thing. But it's been twice now...will there be a third? A fourth? A fifth?

Genuinely asking.

A lot of us just got very... invested? Some even got heated, discussing the Fox thread. And you just deployed another. Before I'm willing to devote any time or energy to it I think I'd like to better understand exactly what this is.
« Last Edit: 28 May 2024, 17:34:55 by Alan Grant »

Minemech

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Re: Another command decision
« Reply #2 on: 28 May 2024, 17:46:52 »
I'm starting to get the vibe that these threads really should be more like a Fan Design kind of thing. Your Fox one, then this. Yes it isn't just design/redesign, it's role and fluff, fair. But I'm starting to wonder if it shouldn't be more like a call for a new Impavido on that thread, complete with fluff and role info.

This is falling in around the place of us providing filler for an Alternate Universe project. That's the vibe. Which I wouldn't mind as a one-time thing. But it's been twice now...will there be a third? A fourth? A fifth?

Genuinely asking.

A lot of us just got very... invested? Some even got heated, discussing the Fox thread. And you just deployed another. Before I'm willing to devote any time or energy to it I think I'd like to better understand exactly what this is.
It is a 4-part series, with the next being DCA, and the final being the Clan perspective. Custom designs should be linked, not posted though some specifics are fair game. They will all give limited information but be linked in as much as they should help provoke deeper thought progressively without the metagame considerations. The DCA and Clans will be more complex due to pressing issues.

Hellraiser

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Re: Another command decision
« Reply #3 on: 28 May 2024, 17:57:34 »
... Impavido. In its older form the ship was highly flawed but useful.

I'm curious, what was so "highly flawed" about the Impavido?

I glanced at Sarna since I don't have my TROs available but I'm having a hard time seeing any glaring issue.

Optimized, no, but Highly Flawed?
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Minemech

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Re: Another command decision
« Reply #4 on: 28 May 2024, 18:18:18 »
I'm curious, what was so "highly flawed" about the Impavido?

I glanced at Sarna since I don't have my TROs available but I'm having a hard time seeing any glaring issue.

Optimized, no, but Highly Flawed?
Single Heat Sinks, complete lack of the point defense that is a defining feature in League designs, out of date and poor AAA abilities and the Capellans know the ship inside out. She is still quite good at what she does. I can name some other flaws that really hurt her, but those stand out.
« Last Edit: 28 May 2024, 18:25:24 by Minemech »

Minemech

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Re: Another command decision
« Reply #5 on: 28 May 2024, 18:31:37 »
I have added the old Impavido.
« Last Edit: 28 May 2024, 18:36:04 by Minemech »

Minemech

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Re: Another command decision
« Reply #6 on: 28 May 2024, 18:56:56 »
 I will note that some of these are related to old design issues that plague designs in general from TRO 3057 and 57R. Working with in-universe realities fans have been able to craft doctrinal reasons why this can work for certain powers like the SLDF and why the Successor States might have had to adapt to new realities.

AlphaMirage

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Re: Another command decision
« Reply #7 on: 28 May 2024, 19:50:35 »
So I think the Impavido should be the low mix in a low/high Warship Fleet, its design is a collaboration so the Capellans have our secrets and build components for it why not export them further. It is serviceable as is but could definitely use some updating (improved point defense, double Aerospace complement, more single heat sinks, only NAC/20s instead of both 20 and 10). In a lower end configuration I'd remove the LF-battery and HPG then see if I could sell it to the other Trinity Alliance powers. More Zecs (with Block I Zecs being great for those powers if they focused on NL/55s to reduce complexity) could also be made including some made in those periphery states so we can source them while focusing on our heavier designs and keeping them on our side instead of Sian's.

Additionally I'd invest in the Feng Huang project if we continue to be on reasonably good terms with the Capellans. It is a good raider/ground force command ship if very under-armed and since it uses a lot of 'common parts' with our Theras (particularly the Upgraded variant) we should be able to maintain them and use them as group leaders for invasion task forces while Aggies provide offensive punch to a Thera's Task Force. This has the benefit of improving Necromo Yards so they can make more inter-planetary engines that we can buy off them improving cost savings in our yards since Capellan labor is probably cheaper.

Cannonshop

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Re: Another command decision
« Reply #8 on: 28 May 2024, 21:50:12 »
Keep building the Impavido for now, but start the process of designing the next series updates to include covering the areas identified as weaknesses.

I base this on your quote about being able to just keep turning them out.

a Mediocre ship you can have today, is worth ten advanced prototypes you can't get off the drawing board in the next twenty years.

remember, if you can't afford to lose it, you can't afford to buy it.
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Alan Grant

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Re: Another command decision
« Reply #9 on: 29 May 2024, 05:53:46 »
There's another factor to note here. She's cheap.

I don't know how accurate this is, but Sarna lists the C-Bill costs of a lot of warships, and the Impavido, coming in around 9.5 million C-Bills. The Tasumaki costs 13 mil, the Suffren 14 mil. The Eagle costs 21 mil, the Fox costs 16 mil.

I view the Impavido as a viable multi-role escort and independent warship, that I would put in the "light destroyer" column. She's cheap enough that like the Zec, you can afford to lose a couple in combat operations. Yet she's not nearly as fragile as the Zec, she brings more fighters and firepower to the party. So you can afford to deploy her against the Corvettes/Destroyers/Frigates of other realms and with enough fighter/dropship/other warship support she may prevail, or at least blunt the enemy assault. If she has to be lost, she is cheap enough to be.

She also has the same thrust profile as a Zec. So a unit exclusively made up of Zec and Impavido class could work well together. That's a unit possibility really worth considering. A zippy, lightweight warship taskforce. Akin to a Star League Pursuit Squadron or Interdiction Squadron.

With all that in mind, I'd keep upgrades to a minimum. More point defense I can understand. More marines and some small craft I could understand for adding to her interdiction capabilities. Outside of that I'd truly adopt a mentality of cost-benefit analysis with this one. Rather than trying to make a better (and considerably more expensive) destroyer, I'd look for necessary improvements only to keep that cost per unit down.

Even if you do relegate her as a second-line unit with a primarily defensive mission projecting planets, escorting convoys and supporting landings and raids, that means you can get a cheap warship that you can position on point or to be the first to intercept the enemy and you can possibly afford to lose her.

There's a practical design consideration to that as well. She's fairly lightweight for a destroyer. So there is only so much you can do with that tonnage without sacrificing something (like speed) or significantly increasing her cost per hull. Most of her contemporary warship classes that aren't corvettes are much heavier than her. If you want a great destroyer versus destroyer combatant, you really need a bigger hull. So instead of trying to turn the Impavido into a heavy destroyer, instead focus on the idea of a fast and cheap one that can bring a respectable number of dropships and fighters into the fight as well.

For the Impavido crews, you can paint this in a positive light. They are frequently the point of the spear. The workhorses, the ones who frequently get called upon to get the job done and to take risks and sail into harm's way. At the head of taskforces closest to the enemy warships in the formation, riding shotgun with raiding and invasion forces in the first wave and potentially using her DS collars to carry some of those herself. Very similar to the Zecs in having an aggressive mentality, just with a different set of capabilities.
« Last Edit: 29 May 2024, 07:48:36 by Alan Grant »

Minemech

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Re: Another command decision
« Reply #10 on: 29 May 2024, 08:49:17 »
So I think the Impavido should be the low mix in a low/high Warship Fleet, its design is a collaboration so the Capellans have our secrets and build components for it why not export them further. It is serviceable as is but could definitely use some updating (improved point defense, double Aerospace complement, more single heat sinks, only NAC/20s instead of both 20 and 10). In a lower end configuration I'd remove the LF-battery and HPG then see if I could sell it to the other Trinity Alliance powers. More Zecs (with Block I Zecs being great for those powers if they focused on NL/55s to reduce complexity) could also be made including some made in those periphery states so we can source them while focusing on our heavier designs and keeping them on our side instead of Sian's.

Additionally I'd invest in the Feng Huang project if we continue to be on reasonably good terms with the Capellans. It is a good raider/ground force command ship if very under-armed and since it uses a lot of 'common parts' with our Theras (particularly the Upgraded variant) we should be able to maintain them and use them as group leaders for invasion task forces while Aggies provide offensive punch to a Thera's Task Force. This has the benefit of improving Necromo Yards so they can make more inter-planetary engines that we can buy off them improving cost savings in our yards since Capellan labor is probably cheaper.
Just a thought, if you are going to trade a useful design's schematics for mass production, I would avoid an advanced design like the Zechetinu. I would favor instead a Vincent that has been reverse engineered and upgraded with somewhat better armament (Still light), adding point defense, a collar, a tad more armor and an HPG. This way they would largely be working with Star League technology but still have a competent if less impressive corvette. It would still be useful to the League itself, particularly in patrolling the backwater regions. I would also give it a battery. All in all, it would be a useful corvette to buyers. Just make sure you inspect every purchase thoroughly, then more so. Maritime powers frequently want the other powers to buy ships they sell off.
« Last Edit: 29 May 2024, 09:23:17 by Minemech »

AlphaMirage

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Re: Another command decision
« Reply #11 on: 29 May 2024, 10:13:39 »
Is the Zec an advanced design? Any more so than any Warship in general? Do we care if FEDCOM and the DCA gain access to its plans considering it isn't meant to fight them? (unlike say our Thera which was compromised by CCN or the Eagle/Agamemnon)

By the time Periphery yards might be capable of manufacturing them without our handholding and capital support the FLWM would be two or three generations ahead and making much larger/more numerous ships. Zecs in Canopian hands are going to be used against the Marians/Pirates and Impavidos will make the Taurians fell more secure against FEDCOM or CCAF threats while drawing FEDCOM Fleet intelligence/Assets Rimward and away from us, it will also make the CCN feel nervous and thus they will increase patrols on their border with FEDCOM and withdraw them from our territory allowing us to focus on the Lyran side.

I think if we were to say transition the Impavido to Periphery production it would be more costly since it is heavier than an jumpship while the Zec could be made in an expanded jumpship cage. There would be a transition to LF-battery Tramps then Zecs since SelaSys might be principal industrial partner in upgrading the yards since they are a civilian company (rather than a government owned one). In the mean time we will continue to manufacture Zecs and sell them a few Impavidos in order to keep Tamarind's yards humming.

Hellraiser

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Re: Another command decision
« Reply #12 on: 29 May 2024, 13:13:04 »
Single Heat Sinks, complete lack of the point defense that is a defining feature in League designs, out of date and poor AAA abilities and the Capellans know the ship inside out. She is still quite good at what she does. I can name some other flaws that really hurt her, but those stand out.

1.  SHS does not "Highly Flawed" make.   
Its a Warship, it has PLENTY of Tonnage for SHS if it wants them. 
Could it use a few more?   Probably.
But, it appears to be a ship designed for Pursuit / Nose On fighting where even the lack of massive HS #s isn't that bad since 2 bays is going to be your norm for shooting.


2.  Complete Lack implies 0,  it appears to have pairs of AMS in the Nose/Rear which are the only 2 locations that should ever be facing the enemy given its speed & weapons layout.


3.  Poor AAA?    There are 16 LRM20+A4,  18 various LL, & a pair of GR.
Its certainly not AMAZING, but, that is better than a LOT of canon designs & I wouldn't call it "poor".
Code: [Select]
16x LRM-20 with Artemis IV FCS
8x ER large laser
8x Large laser
2x Large pulse laser
2x Gauss rifle
4x Anti-missile system


4.  I'm honestly impressed w/ the "layout" of the weapons. 
For a Pursuit unit, they are quite good actually.
The fact that it ISN'T loaded up in the BS Bays is astounding to me given the in game limits of those bay arcs & the overloading of them most designs have.
The addition of the LPL there, while being only 1 is exactly where I would have put it.
Sure, does it suffer from "lots of small bays spread all over".  Yeah, but what 3057 ship didn't.
The NAC10's as mentioned up thread are a really odd choice when for a bit more tonnage you could just have matching NAC20's.


5.  The pair of DS is both very nice when compared to traditional Lola/Essex ships & also doesn't bloat the C-Bill costs the way FS Ships are w/ 5-6 of them per ship.


6.  The only really flawed thing I find about this ship is the speed, and that is just because, IMO, there is VERY LITTLE need for any WS to have a speed that isn't 3/5 or 4/6.


7.  Is it highly optimized?  No.   Would I have laid out the weapons a bit differently?  Yes.   But overall, I find it to be one of the better designed ships


8.  For Reference:
Based on Sarna, I think the weapons are laid out as shown below.
Code: [Select]
NOSE
2x NAC/20 + 1x NAC/10
1x NL45
1x L-NPPC
2x LRM20A4
2x GR
1x ERLL + 1x LL
2x Anti-missile system

FORESIDE
2x NAC/20 + 1x NAC/10
1x NL45
2x LRM20A4
1x ERLL + 1x LL

BROADSIDE
2x NL45
1x Light NPPC
2x LRM20A4
1x ERLL + 1x LL
1x LPL

AFTSIDE
2x NAC/20 + 1x NAC/10
1x NL45
2x LRM20A4
1x ERLL + 1x LL

REAR
2x NAC/20 + 1x NAC/10
1x NL45
2x LRM20A4
1x ERLL + 1x LL
2x Anti-missile system


I went w/ Block-II since the option to just keep making them wasn't up yet, and frankly, what ship couldn't use a "Block-II" minor upgrade to swap a few things around?
But for what it's designed to be the major points,  Speed, Collars, SI, Armor, Weapons Locations/Focus, are all pretty spot on.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Minemech

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Re: Another command decision
« Reply #13 on: 29 May 2024, 20:09:07 »
 I went with a League block III. The League is an expendable trooper escort that can work well with Thera group, Venturer, Aggie, or a BB centered formation, though it could prove useful to Eagles when they are dispatched. It would take an iconic design from Free Worlds naval history, upgrade its armor/SI/Composite/PD/Battery/Heat Sinks/AAA/ abilities to modern standards, whilst integrating bracketing. It would need 2 collars minimum, but really 3 or 4 would be desirable (Yeah, not likely). The Tamarind and Loyalty Yards would be the most likely locations for production.

 To the question of if they are needed, I think yes.


Minemech

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Re: Another command decision
« Reply #14 on: 29 May 2024, 21:34:37 »
Is the Zec an advanced design? Any more so than any Warship in general? Do we care if FEDCOM and the DCA gain access to its plans considering it isn't meant to fight them? (unlike say our Thera which was compromised by CCN or the Eagle/Agamemnon)

By the time Periphery yards might be capable of manufacturing them without our handholding and capital support the FLWM would be two or three generations ahead and making much larger/more numerous ships. Zecs in Canopian hands are going to be used against the Marians/Pirates and Impavidos will make the Taurians fell more secure against FEDCOM or CCAF threats while drawing FEDCOM Fleet intelligence/Assets Rimward and away from us, it will also make the CCN feel nervous and thus they will increase patrols on their border with FEDCOM and withdraw them from our territory allowing us to focus on the Lyran side.

I think if we were to say transition the Impavido to Periphery production it would be more costly since it is heavier than an jumpship while the Zec could be made in an expanded jumpship cage. There would be a transition to LF-battery Tramps then Zecs since SelaSys might be principal industrial partner in upgrading the yards since they are a civilian company (rather than a government owned one). In the mean time we will continue to manufacture Zecs and sell them a few Impavidos in order to keep Tamarind's yards humming.
My interpretation is that in-universe it is a very advanced design. We just get the generalized rules. At the very least, its internals have a lot of League specific-isms.

Minemech

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Re: Another command decision
« Reply #15 on: 29 May 2024, 21:49:52 »
1.  SHS does not "Highly Flawed" make.   
Its a Warship, it has PLENTY of Tonnage for SHS if it wants them. 
Could it use a few more?   Probably.
But, it appears to be a ship designed for Pursuit / Nose On fighting where even the lack of massive HS #s isn't that bad since 2 bays is going to be your norm for shooting.
It does for more than a few reasons. Firstly it limits your hunting options as well as movement and the Impavido was clearly designed as a hunter (Though TRO 3057's text is worthless for deriving its role).

Quote
2.  Complete Lack implies 0,  it appears to have pairs of AMS in the Nose/Rear which are the only 2 locations that should ever be facing the enemy given its speed & weapons layout.
Having 4 total is none. The League standard is 32 AMS before other PD.
Quote
3.  Poor AAA?    There are 16 LRM20+A4,  18 various LL, & a pair of GR.
Its certainly not AMAZING, but, that is better than a LOT of canon designs & I wouldn't call it "poor".
Code: [Select]
16x LRM-20 with Artemis IV FCS
8x ER large laser
8x Large laser
2x Large pulse laser
2x Gauss rifle
4x Anti-missile system
I admittingly forgot about the LRM 20s. The regulars need to be advanced to ER, and there should be 24 ERs at minimum, with the League standard being 32 of 1 class, then more of other classes. Some League ships even prefer 32 ER PPCs, something it could never tolerate (It would be a lot to ask of any DD).
Quote
4.  I'm honestly impressed w/ the "layout" of the weapons. 
For a Pursuit unit, they are quite good actually.
The fact that it ISN'T loaded up in the BS Bays is astounding to me given the in game limits of those bay arcs & the overloading of them most designs have.
That is a very common note attached to the Impavido. It does the 5/8 shindig correctly. Its armor is also plenty fine, though a lamellor compound would have been nice.
Quote
The addition of the LPL there, while being only 1 is exactly where I would have put it.
Sure, does it suffer from "lots of small bays spread all over".  Yeah, but what 3057 ship didn't.
The NAC10's as mentioned up thread are a really odd choice when for a bit more tonnage you could just have matching NAC20's.
It was an experimental eccentricity. It technically outdamages the NAC/40
Quote
5.  The pair of DS is both very nice when compared to traditional Lola/Essex ships & also doesn't bloat the C-Bill costs the way FS Ships are w/ 5-6 of them per ship.
Another thing we can agree on.
Quote
6.  The only really flawed thing I find about this ship is the speed, and that is just because, IMO, there is VERY LITTLE need for any WS to have a speed that isn't 3/5 or 4/6.
It was a hunter killer. Those 50 point cannons on a high speed ship are frightful to smaller vessels.
Quote
7.  Is it highly optimized?  No.   Would I have laid out the weapons a bit differently?  Yes.   But overall, I find it to be one of the better designed ships
Hence it is useful
Quote
I went w/ Block-II since the option to just keep making them wasn't up yet, and frankly, what ship couldn't use a "Block-II" minor upgrade to swap a few things around?
But for what it's designed to be the major points,  Speed, Collars, SI, Armor, Weapons Locations/Focus, are all pretty spot on.
Are you after a mk or a block? I think that all agree that conceptually the Impavido has important features that work, and items that could use a hefty rework. If I were to go with the Impavido, I would do a block level upgrade, starting with the Heat Sinks.
« Last Edit: 29 May 2024, 22:06:23 by Minemech »

Alan Grant

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Re: Another command decision
« Reply #16 on: 30 May 2024, 13:47:34 »
Something just hit me about the original post. The year is 3063.

The Impavido hulls that exist were just launched in the last 5 years or so. The FWL Fleet is still in the middle of cranking out the rest of the fleet, the Theras, Eagles, Zecs and so on.

Now wouldn't be the time to go back for a Impavido upgrade. It just wouldn't be a priority. The FWL Fleet is still coming into existence with some big expensive projects in the middle of being built. In 3063 they have a lot of new hulls under construction, a lot of new crews to train, a lot of new ASF pilots to train, ASFs to buy or build, and new ASF units to form. They've also had to invest in a lot of naval infrastructure to build those classes.

I missed that about your original post. It's too soon, too fast, or maybe just too early.

EDIT: I'll add to that a component of naval construction that routinely gets overlooked. Saving Face. Going for an upgrade of the Impavido now screams "this thing we have built is not adequate and we need to fix it."

SOMEBODY is going to lose face over that. An Admiral, set of Admirals, bunch of individuals at Technicron and at the LCCC. If someone says "let's come up with an upgraded version of this class that is about 5 years old" they all stand to lose face, to lose reputation. The Impavido program, once considered a success story is now under scrutiny means getting asked how and why the Impavido is such a failure by somebody. This is especially true in the FWL, with things like Parliament to take into consideration. I can easily imagine some Parliamentarians who don't favor the federal government weaponizing such a project as political ammunition.

This is an announcement that the thing we just spent billions of C-Bills to build just in the last 5 years...is not good enough. Finger pointing to follow.

Maybe after some time has passed. The original design was seen as a success story for a while, 10-20-50 years, more. But some time has passed, priorities have changed, lessons have been learned, new technologies developed, we want to make it better... but not in 3063.
« Last Edit: 30 May 2024, 14:57:18 by Alan Grant »

Minemech

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Re: Another command decision
« Reply #17 on: 30 May 2024, 16:58:24 »
Something just hit me about the original post. The year is 3063.

The Impavido hulls that exist were just launched in the last 5 years or so. The FWL Fleet is still in the middle of cranking out the rest of the fleet, the Theras, Eagles, Zecs and so on.

Now wouldn't be the time to go back for a Impavido upgrade. It just wouldn't be a priority. The FWL Fleet is still coming into existence with some big expensive projects in the middle of being built. In 3063 they have a lot of new hulls under construction, a lot of new crews to train, a lot of new ASF pilots to train, ASFs to buy or build, and new ASF units to form. They've also had to invest in a lot of naval infrastructure to build those classes.

I missed that about your original post. It's too soon, too fast, or maybe just too early.

EDIT: I'll add to that a component of naval construction that routinely gets overlooked. Saving Face. Going for an upgrade of the Impavido now screams "this thing we have built is not adequate and we need to fix it."

SOMEBODY is going to lose face over that. An Admiral, set of Admirals, bunch of individuals at Technicron and at the LCCC. If someone says "let's come up with an upgraded version of this class that is about 5 years old" they all stand to lose face, to lose reputation. The Impavido program, once considered a success story is now under scrutiny means getting asked how and why the Impavido is such a failure by somebody. This is especially true in the FWL, with things like Parliament to take into consideration. I can easily imagine some Parliamentarians who don't favor the federal government weaponizing such a project as political ammunition.

This is an announcement that the thing we just spent billions of C-Bills to build just in the last 5 years...is not good enough. Finger pointing to follow.

Maybe after some time has passed. The original design was seen as a success story for a while, 10-20-50 years, more. But some time has passed, priorities have changed, lessons have been learned, new technologies developed, we want to make it better... but not in 3063.
One of the propositions that has been behind this scenario is that the fall of the Federated Commonwealth, and the rise of Katherine prevented a naval arms race that all states involved were sufficiently competent enough to enter. Katherine thought she was a genius but was seen through relatively swiftly by her peers. Melissa on the other hand is a serious figure and is smart enough and has reason to be properly preparing Victor. Morgan is never assassinated, and Victor likely had nothing to do with Bulldog.

 The Successor States are rationally attempting to counterbalance one another's power whilst feigning peace under the Star League. One of the items that will have come out in the DCA section was just how much of a gamechanger the introduction of the Yamato is in this scenario and how it has affected varying factions within the Combine, and united the people behind a popular messianic view of a Theodore who will crush the Bear and take the reins of the First Lord of the Star League. She is about 2 million tons and was carefully tested to beat a McKenna in simulations confidently as far as the Combine knows [The DC developed it around a theoretical naval C3 integrated that now exists and is being integrated, with the admiralty already aware of complicating factors. It also breaks a trend in the DCA in that it has fair PD. An oversimplified breakdown of Admiralty lobbies will come in that thread]. 

 

Hellraiser

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Re: Another command decision
« Reply #18 on: 30 May 2024, 19:09:56 »
Are you after a mk or a block? I think that all agree that conceptually the Impavido has important features that work, and items that could use a hefty rework. If I were to go with the Impavido, I would do a block level upgrade, starting with the Heat Sinks.
What is the difference in your definition?   Mark-II v/s Block-II?

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Minemech

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Re: Another command decision
« Reply #19 on: 30 May 2024, 20:05:29 »
What is the difference in your definition?   Mark-II v/s Block-II?
A mark upgrade can make important changes, but they tend to largely be superficial (Including interior changes that would not make the fluff). Block upgrades can be almost generational jumps as can be seen in the League or Davion destroyer classes. The Vincent provides a canonical example of a mark, but notably it is largely meant to swap it from Hegemony to Clan standards, which they would see as superficial. The same can be seen in the swap from Star League to Clan Aegis.

 Adding 8 new Large Lasers (Choose your type), 2 AMS to each uncovered facing, and perhaps adding extra SHS while swapping armor compounds would likely still be mark. Upgrades to capital weaponry is a gray area, but would lean on the side of a block improvement.

 Rewiring her systems to doubles (I think it was supposed to be an electrical issue) while potentially adding some more, adjusting her PD and AAA to modern standards, whilst updating compounds and adding some extra armor (in tons) would easily put her into block. You could also upgrade her capital guns if the NAC/10 in particular seems unfitting.
« Last Edit: 30 May 2024, 20:22:51 by Minemech »

Hellraiser

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Re: Another command decision
« Reply #20 on: 31 May 2024, 11:57:55 »
Ok, I was wondering how you defined it since in canon there are examples that go either way & in real world the only difference from what I can tell is that they are both upgrades to an existing design but the "Block" can also apply to "Production Run" v/s just saying the word "Variant"


In Canon we have Blocks that change the tonnage (Davion-I to II) v/s most every other does not change it.
And we have "Marks" that do the same, Mechs, as well as Lola/Essex come to mind.
Then we have the Vincent you mentioned that doesn't list a single stat change at all & just says the SLDF "final" model was the 39 but we have no idea if any earlier version was a "fluff" change or a "Record Sheet" change.


For me, regardless of what term you use,  I'm talking about a "minor" change in both your threads.
IE. 
Heatsinks
Internal Bays / Quarters
Weapons & Armor types/layouts

v/s A "Major" change
SI
Docking Collars
Engines


I'm not entirely sure where I would qualify LFBs at.
The Clans added them in what are basically minor changes over all.
But in at least 1 case they did touch Docking Collars w/ the SovSoy getting 1 more.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Alan Grant

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Re: Another command decision
« Reply #21 on: 31 May 2024, 13:50:35 »
I think you gotta go by what the FWL is doing in this era when talking about the FWL Fleet. That's the precedent in this era. They have the Zechetinu and Zechetinu II. It appears as Zechetinu II in multiple books, including TRO: 3067 and FM: Updates. No "Block" or "Mark" phrasing in either.

Sarna's Zechetinu page refers to this as a "Block II". But I wonder if that's just someone's sarna page invention as opposed to coming from a canon source.

They swap out a few weapons. The cargo capacity is different. What else did they change there with the Zec II? Are the heat sinks different?

And now I'm actually curious about something. I've seen Battletech use "Block" before on multiple ships. The League Destroyer had a Block II. So did a bunch of older ships like the Commonwealth Light Cruiser and the Narukami destroyer.

The Lola I/II section in TRO: 3057r refers to these changes as the Lola Block I, Lola Block II, Lola Block III.

The ONLY ship I can find that used "Mark" is the Vincent.

What I'm getting at, is I'm not sure anyone really uses "Mark" in the BT universe. Outside of the Vincent, which might just be a quirk of that particular shipbuilder or project. Correct me if I'm wrong. If I'm right, then I suspect any changes are most likely going to be framed as a Block or simply "II" "III" etc.
« Last Edit: 31 May 2024, 13:53:02 by Alan Grant »

Hellraiser

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Re: Another command decision
« Reply #22 on: 31 May 2024, 17:24:02 »
What I'm getting at, is I'm not sure anyone really uses "Mark" in the BT universe. Outside of the Vincent, which might just be a quirk of that particular shipbuilder or project. Correct me if I'm wrong. If I'm right, then I suspect any changes are most likely going to be framed as a Block or simply "II" "III" etc.
You see it a LOT more often in the ground units.

MadCat MkII
MadCat MkIV

Vulture MkII

Scimitar MkII
Maxim MkII

Infiltrator MkII

But there is some for Aero.

Mark VII Landing Craft

Magellan MkII

Then there are things like the Marauder-II that don't say the work MARK in them, but in my head I hear it.


I think it's less that its "Not Used" so much that all 3 of the options are basically used in every different way you can imagine.

I mean the Vulture-MkII is basically just a flat out upgrade of the Vulture/MadDog.
But the Marauder-II is a 33% Increase in Tonnage

Davion Block-I v/s II is a 60KT increase in Mass.
But I think it's the only Old "Block" ship that does that.   All the rest of the old WS don't change AFAIK.

Meanwhile the Essex & Lola are full on "new ships" w/ their own designation, & in the case of the Essex a totally different tonnage.
But the Lola is basically just the same ship w/ minor generation differences where the Contract went to a Different Company in the case of the Lola-II IIRC.

Oh, and lets not forget the III's like the Enforcer/Jager as well as the "Re-Seen" that were nothing more than "Visual" Upgrades but both Did & Did NOT have a # attached to them respectively, LOL.   Or the Centurion/Jager that Changed Tonnage at one point to 55/70 but didn't get any # on them at all

Which is why I asked MM how he was using the term Mark & Block or just # for that matter w/o clarifier.
They can all be used the exact same way, or, mean totally different things.

But, to get back to the Imp itself.

In the year of the OP, I wouldn't change a thing.
But I would consider a "Re-Skin"/"Block-2" at some point in the future.

Basically the same choice I made for the Fox in the other thread.
Neither needs a whole new ship class.
Both could use a few minor tweaks to "optimize".
« Last Edit: 01 June 2024, 22:50:28 by Hellraiser »
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Minemech

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Re: Another command decision
« Reply #23 on: 01 June 2024, 22:34:23 »
I think you gotta go by what the FWL is doing in this era when talking about the FWL Fleet. That's the precedent in this era. They have the Zechetinu and Zechetinu II. It appears as Zechetinu II in multiple books, including TRO: 3067 and FM: Updates. No "Block" or "Mark" phrasing in either.

Sarna's Zechetinu page refers to this as a "Block II". But I wonder if that's just someone's sarna page invention as opposed to coming from a canon source.

They swap out a few weapons. The cargo capacity is different. What else did they change there with the Zec II? Are the heat sinks different?

And now I'm actually curious about something. I've seen Battletech use "Block" before on multiple ships. The League Destroyer had a Block II. So did a bunch of older ships like the Commonwealth Light Cruiser and the Narukami destroyer.

The Lola I/II section in TRO: 3057r refers to these changes as the Lola Block I, Lola Block II, Lola Block III.

The ONLY ship I can find that used "Mark" is the Vincent.

What I'm getting at, is I'm not sure anyone really uses "Mark" in the BT universe. Outside of the Vincent, which might just be a quirk of that particular shipbuilder or project. Correct me if I'm wrong. If I'm right, then I suspect any changes are most likely going to be framed as a Block or simply "II" "III" etc.
It depends a bit on how you read the upgrades. I took the Star League to Clan upgrades as Marks. It is a choice of conventions in the end, but a useful one.

Minemech

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Re: Another command decision
« Reply #24 on: 01 June 2024, 22:39:46 »
 I want to say that battery upgrades do occur on some ships when getting upgraded to Clan specs. For the Clans such an addition is not seen as particularly important as they never strived to develop new generations of warships. If they had, things could have been bad for the Inner Sphere.