Author Topic: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel  (Read 23416 times)

Scotty

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Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« on: 20 July 2012, 00:12:23 »
UZL-*S Uziel


Developed at the opening of the FedCom Civil war, the Uziel falls solidly into the Medium weight class at 50 tons. The product of a direct commission from Defiance-Furillo general manager Duke Thelonius Gracchi, the Uziel was an attempt to both raise morale among Defiance-Furillo employess, and also to make his division of the company's image better. The final result can hardly be considered anything but a success.

Built on an Foundation E40 Endo-Steel frame to save weight, the basic Uziel UZL-3S uses a 300-rated GM XL fusion engine, and is easily capable of reaching speeds of up to 96 kilometers per hour over open terrain at a run, keeping its balance with a standard gyro. It also utilizes an array of six Rawlings 50 jump jets, for an effective jump range of fully 180 meters. Eight tons of Maximillian 100 Standard armor provide adequate protection, but only 75% of the chassis maximum. Only the center torso and legs can take a gauss rifle hit without breaching straight to the internal structure, although the side torsos only barely fail to stop the slug, and those locations that still have armor will be unable to take even a medium laser after that. The arms even if pristine are only able to stop a medium pulse laser twice before the internals are exposed. Surprisingly, the legs on this machine are armored even more heavily than the center torso, although only by a small amount. The rear torsos on this machine are similarly weakly armored, with only the rear center torso able to stop a medium laser strike without allowing some damage to transfer, and after a hit like that, even a machine gun will shred what's left of the armor with damage to spare. The head, at least, mounts the maximum possible armor coverage, though in all likelihood that will rarely be tested without the rest of the 'Mech already shot to pieces (which in all honesty isn't very hard).

For offensive capabilities, the -3S can open the engagement out to a whopping 810 meters thanks to a right arm mounted Defiance Shredder LB-2X Autocannon with a single ton of ammo mounted in the corresponding torso. This limits your ammunition choice to either slug or cluster, but you'll definitely not run out of ammo in the field. With such a small hit, you're probably better off using cluster ammunition to force enemy fast-movers to stay honest at range, or try to find the Golden BB. The more accurate qualities of cluster ammo aren't anything to sneeze at either, especially when firing at harassing VTOLs at range. The short range armament is much more impressive than a pair of plinks at long range, and consists of a Defiance Model XII ER Medium Laser mounted under the autocannon on the same arm, a TharHes Thunderbolt 12 Large Pulse Laser occupying the other arm, a pair of Diverse Optics ER Small Lasers, one in each side torso, and finally a Harvester 20K SRM-6 launcher in the center torso, with the associated ton of ammo housed next to the autocannon ammo in the right torso. This weapon arrangement allows the -3S to potentially knock over an enemy 'Mech at ranges up to 270 meters, if a pilot connects with most weapons, and the chances only get better as the ER small lasers come into play at 150 meters. Knife-fight range to be sure, but still handy when in range. This weapon load is handled by eleven double heat sinks, all mounted in the engine, which easily come up short if a pilot finds himself firing everything in the middle of a jump, spiking high enough to both slow the 'Mech, and also make shots more difficult as the heat interferes with targeting solutions. If the pilot is running flat out instead of (literally) burning across the terrain, the heat load is much more manageable when all weapons are fired, but the pilot will still feel it in the cockpit, even if the 'Mech's performance won't degrade appreciably.

Three Four variants of the Uziel exist, though none are nearly as common as the base model above. The original prototype version was at some point put into production in smaller numbers to supplement the main variant. Additionally, a pair of personalized variants exist, both of them sequentially owned by Wolf's Dragoons Black Widow Company XO Jacob Kincaid.

The first variant, the UZL-2S, makes the largest changes to the 'Mechs armament, but also rearranges the interior workings to make room for some of the new equipment. The chassis, engine, jump jets, and armor all stay the same, but all weapons save the SRM launcher are ripped out and replaced, and the missile bin is moved to the left torso. The autocannon, ER medium laser, and pulse laser are all traded in for a pair of Parti-Kill Heavy Cannon PPCs, one mounted in each arm. The ER small lasers are traded in for a pair of Kicker Machine Guns, fed by a half ton of ammo that takes its place next to the missile bin already there. All of this is fed by the minimum load of ten double heat sinks, which has some serious difficulty handling a heat curve that's stayed much the same. Overall range has been reduced by fully a third to the PPCs' maximum range of 540 meters, but firepower at that range is ten times what it used to be, and if both cannons connect this Uziel is very much capable of knocking an opponent down at range. The SRM launcher can seek out holes in the enemy's armor at close range, and the machine guns are useful for dealing with enemy infantry in your way. The other change to this variant from the baseline is the addition of a Cyclops Beagle Active Probe in the left torso, offering at least a bit of padding around the ammo bins, and making this into a superb mid-weight scout that can more than handle itself against the competition. If the pilot is feeling reckless and firing off all weapons while jumping, the heat will start slowing the 'Mech and degrading targeting performance immediately, and even throttling back to just a run will still bump the heat high enough to slow the run down in the next few seconds until that heat can be dissipated.

The next variant is more unique, used by Wolf's Dragoon Jacob Kincaid, as mentioned above, and is dubbed quite simply, the UZL-2S “Jacob”. This variant makes more radical changes to the 'Mech, dropping the engine to a 250-rated Extra Light engine, and removing the jump jets entirely, while simultaneously upgrading the standard gyro to an extra-light model. The armor is without a doubt upgraded to eight and a half tons of light ferro-fibrous, offering 85% of the maximum coverage for the chassis. Now, the armor can take a gauss rifle to any front location but the arms and head and still not transfer damage, and the arms only fail by the barest of margins. After such a hit, the arms and side torsos will be completely without armor, while the center torso and legs will still have enough armor to completely stop a medium laser, although nothing else. The rear armor is upgraded as well, offering enough protection to stop medium laser hits across the board, although the side torsos will be completely without armor, and the center will only be able to stop a single SRM before more damage transfers to the internal sections. Still, even if its still more fragile than it could be, it's much improved over the -2S and -3S variants. What does all this build up to, you ask? The primary armament of this machine is a pair of Rotary Autocannon-5s, one in each arm, and fed by three tons of ammunition, with two tons housed in the right torso and one in the left. This allows the “Jacob” to engage up to 450 meters away with over half a ton of burning metal in a very small engagement window. The SRM-6 launcher makes a reappearance, but is moved to the left torso now that the center has no free space for the launcher to fit. A single ton of ammo feeds the launcher, in the left torso next to one of the tons of RAC ammo. Two ER small lasers, one in each side torso round out the armament. Overall, this model is definitely the best suited to dishing out large amounts of damage downrange, even if that range is significantly reduced relative to that of the -3S, and only slightly reduced versus the -2S. Despite the fact that this design uses the minimum ten double heat sinks, the heat curve on this 'Mech isn't bad, running cool enough that the pilot is more than likely to not be bothered even in the midst of combat, and it takes fully thirty seconds of sustained running and firing everything for the 'Mechs performance to be even minimally degraded.

The last second to last variant makes a significant departure from standard equipment, mounted several components that are experimental or expensive to produce. This design shares the chassis, engine, gyro, and pilot of the previous, and is called the rather unimaginative UZL-2S “Jacob II”. Just about everything else is changed, however. A supercharger is installed in the left torso, allowing the 'Mech to move even faster than the original -3S model if it really needs to, although this does risk damaging the engine. The armor is upgraded yet again to nine tons of light ferro-fibrous, and covering the 'Mech with nearly 90% of its maximum protection. The bulk of the increased protection goes to the legs and side torsos, with each front side torso can take a pair of large laser hits without breaching, and both legs can take an AC/20 shot without damaging anything inside, although a machine gun will shred the remaining armor with ease. The rear side torsos can now withstand a full medium pulse laser blast without buckling. The armor on the head, arms, and both sides of the center torso remain identical to the initial “Jacob” model. However, the most radical modification to the 'Mech is probably the addition of an Actuator Enhancement System to the 'Mech's arms. This system increases the accuracy of the weapons mounted in the arms, as well as making it easier to land a punch on a target. The weapons load is even more significantly changed, ripping out both RACs to instead mount a pair of LAC-5s, one in each arm. Four tons of ammo, two mounted in each side torso, allow the “Jacob II” to engage targets with multiple varieties of specialty ammo and never worry about running dry over the course of even several engagements. The SRM launcher present on all Uziel variants has been upgraded to a Streak system, mounted in the left torso with a single ton of ammo. Rounding out the armament are a pair of medium pulse lasers. Although effective to only 180 meters, these are very capable of discouraging getting too close, if the other armament failed to persuade your opponents. Although not as outright damaging as the first “Jacob”, this version is significantly more versatile and possesses much more staying power on the field. This variant is also impossible to overheat without outside help using the same old ten double heat sinks, riding cool even if the pilot fires everything he can at a dead run for as long as the ammo holds out.

Finally, some time after this article was written, the Uziel UZL-8S debuted in Record Sheets: 3067 Unabridged.  Much like the Jacob variants, the 8S reduces the ground speed.  Very unlike the Jacob variants, this saved tonnage is converted directly into a rocket jetpack of no fewer than eight Improved Jump Jets, letting the Uziel leap 240 meters at a stretch, fully a third farther than the earliest models.  That's a significant increase in tonnage spent on mobility, unfortunately, which means cuts had to be made elsewhere.  Rather than gut either the -2S or -3S's armament but maintain the original role faithfully, Defiance Industries instead chose to reimagine the new variant's purpose.  Every weapon is removed and replaced by something else: in this case, a Streak SRM-6 instead of the original SRM-6, and two Medium Pulse Lasers in each arm.  Last but not least is a Guardian ECM Suite.  This transforms the -8S into the stuff of nightmares for heavy, slow formations, especially those that rely on advanced electronics.  Thanks to the inherent accuracy of the pulse lasers, and the ammunition efficiency of the Streak launcher, the 8S is capable of executing full distance jumps while still being able to expect results at the other end.  It's a headhunter, and an excellent platform for neutralizing C3 networks - first temporarily, and then more permanently with the lasers.

Aside from the latter two Jacob variants, the Uziel has been deployed widely with both the AFFS and LCAF. Dozen of units have received and used the Uziel, as well as several mercenary commands. With the conclusion of the FCCW and the Jihad, the Uziel isn't unheard of to turn up just about anywhere, although most units are encountered in units formerly of the Federated Commonwealth.  The only exception is the 8S, which was introduced during the Jihad and quickly made its way into the Free Worlds League and the hands of the FWLM.

Using an Uziel is more simple than it looks. Although 50 tons, it plays like an oversize scout 'Mech. Use the -3S to harass enemy units that are susceptible to smaller hits at long range, and wait for an opening to leap in and blaze away at an exposed enemy, before jumping away and getting out of the action to cool off and avoid return fire. It doesn't have the armor to brawl with its trooper brothers in the Medium class, and the -3S doesn't really have the raw firepower to compete in that field either, instead relying on its speed to avoid anything it can't harass, and its guns to take care of whatever can catch up to it. The -2S is easier, as it actually has the guns to engage enemies and send them to the ground at range. It's also a superb scout with its Beagle probe, able to sniff out hidden units, and well armored enough to take the stray hit or escape an ambush. Better to err on the side of caution, and avoid the big boys with the big guns until there's a good time to strike. Lots of ammo in side torsos and an extra-light engine means that even if it did mount CASE, it wouldn't stop an explosion from gutting your 'Mech, so be careful. There's enough ammo that short of dumping it you won't be able to expend it all before missing armor becomes a problem, too.

Fighting an Uziel is also simple. None of the production models like big hits at all, so gauss rifles and other big guns will force them to keep their distance unless they want to lose an arm or a torso. Again, its basically an overgrown, over-gunned scout 'Mech, and any amount of big firepower will put one down for the count fairly quickly. Don't underestimate one's effect on the battle, though, as the -2S can disrupt infantry ambushes easily with a Beagle probe and machine guns, and both of them are fast for their size.

Additional information and artwork can be found at the Master Unit List, and Camospecs has more minis than I can really link to.

The Uziel has had a new miniature released since the initial publication of this article.  It fixes everything that was ever wrong about the original, at least partly because it defaults to the significantly better -2S.  There's also a specific variant for the 8S
« Last Edit: 16 May 2019, 20:16:14 by Scotty »
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Taurevanime

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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #1 on: 20 July 2012, 01:00:36 »
Nice write up. I always personally liked the look of the Uziel, and it is a bit of an understated 'Mech. But as a firm Jagermech lover, that is right up my ally. It's also one of few 'Mechs that I know of that mounts an LB-2X autocannon.

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #2 on: 20 July 2012, 01:23:13 »
The -2S always seemed to me to be a bit of a strike boat.  Send it deep for headhunters; you've got the primary weapons of the old WHM-6R - dual PPCs backed up by an SRM6 and twin MGs - and the heat sinks to use them.  Add in 50% more speed than the old Whammy, and it's a great fast attack machine that can wreak some havoc and get out.  I'd drive it like a scout-killer, hunting down anything slightly faster than it is and running the hell away from anything that outguns it.  The MGs to chew up infantry platoons randomly run across in the performance of your scout/scout killer role help a lot too.  It doesn't have the armor to survive a real fight, and with no CASE onboard any ammo crits means that it's a complete wipe, so don't stick around.

Personally, I'd just buy companies of the -2S wholesale, myself, and ignore the -3S except as the occasional plinker.  Idly, I did try it out, you can straight swap the LPL for an LB-2 and have a nice speedy antiair unit, or do twin LB5s (scrapping the rest of the guns) for a better AA platform.
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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #3 on: 20 July 2012, 05:14:55 »
But as a firm Jagermech lover, that is right up my ally. It's also one of few 'Mechs that I know of that mounts an LB-2X autocannon.

There's almost a dozen of 'Mechs with LBX-2 - Catapult, two JagerMechs (JM6-H and JM7-G), Men Shen, Uziel, Fenris, Hankyu, Night Gyr, Nobori-Nin, Ryoken II.

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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #4 on: 20 July 2012, 06:25:29 »
If almost a dozen 'Mechs mount an LB-2X AC, then considering the number of 'Mechs that exist, that qualifies as "few".  Compare to, say, PPCs, or LRM-15s for relatively close tonnage comparisons.
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martian

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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #5 on: 20 July 2012, 06:39:51 »
If almost a dozen 'Mechs mount an LB-2X AC, then considering the number of 'Mechs that exist, that qualifies as "few".  Compare to, say, PPCs, or LRM-15s for relatively close tonnage comparisons.

Yeah, except tonnage there's not much to compare. LBX-2 is niche weapon, relatively new in-universe and intended for different purposes tha PPC or LRM-15. Today, most nations have access to at least one 'Mech equipped with this weapon. I don't expect that too many new 'Mech with this weapon will appear.

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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #6 on: 20 July 2012, 08:37:50 »
2S: runs a bit warm, but such a fun Mech- really handy to have. Dropping the jump jets for  more heat sinks helps a ton.

3S: If you've been on the forums for a while, my feelings on this machine are well known. If not... here.

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Scotty

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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #7 on: 20 July 2012, 08:50:48 »
Compared to the -2S, the -3S is a little bit of a lemon.  That said, the LB-2X makes it a superb harasser with its speed and ability to actually take a hit, unlike other harassers I could name (Cicada, anyone?).  I'd rather rip the LPL out for a PPC or ER PPC, but it can be useful if you suddenly find yourself waaaaay too close to the enemy, or on the tail end of a six hex jump to put you in their rear arc.

All that side, the -2S is just plain better.  Same movement profile, and much improved scouting capabilities thanks to the BAP.  Improved anti-infantry capabilities because of the machine guns.  Load up the SRM launcher with infernos and use it to burninate any infantry or vehicles stupid enough to get in the way at close range and have fun.

I actually kinda like to think of the -2S as the "STG-3G Infinity+1 edition". :D
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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #8 on: 20 July 2012, 10:15:14 »
Haven't really used the Uziel much, though I am impressed that each variant seems to fulfill a radically different niche.

-3S: This is basically a Phoenix Hawk whit an AA gun bolted on. It's a mobile close-range fighter first and foremost, and the LB-2 can almost be  ignored(or fired at hideous t-hit numbers for the hell of it) until you get into the situation where and LB-X becomes a lifesaver. Plunk this thing into a skirmisher, strike, or scout lance, and it'll fight with everyone else, and save everyone's bacon when the time comes to bring down an airstrike, VTOL, or start htting a hovercraft before it gets into range.

-2S: It's like a P-Hawk and a Warhammer had a baby, and said offspring got all the best parts! Tailor-made as a striker, this will put some serious oomph into your strike or skirmish lances, and could also cause fits as a deep raider. Finally, stick one into the command slot of a scout lance, and you've got something that can pull everyone else's tail out of the fire if they run into something they can't handle, or take down any really juicy targets they might find.

Jacob: An interesting brawler, this can go into a variety of lances, ranging from generic battle lances, cavalry lances, or even in fire or assault lances as an escort. If you find a good target, get into range fast, and empty your ammo bins into his face it's that simple.

Jacob II: This one is especially fascinating, especially given that it has the same pilot as the Jacob, yet relies on an opposite fighting style. While the Jacob favored blitzkrieg tactics and immediate dispensing of massive amounts of lead, the J-II is a very patient fighter. Use your speed and the accuracy of the LAC-5s to slowly wear down a target at range, then dash in and finish them off with the close-in guns. You'll take hits due to the relatively short range of the LAC-5s compared to similar guns, but that's what the boosted armor is for. I'm honestly really impressed that this Jacob guy manged to radically alter his fighting style to operate such a vastly different machine. (Either that, or he really hated the original Jacob.)
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Ian Sharpe

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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #9 on: 20 July 2012, 10:59:32 »
2S is quite useful, though I usually drop the MGs for a DHS and a little more armour.  Works very well with Tebuchets as two and two can open some holes and send plenty of crits at them.  Haven't played any of the others, though the Jacob is interesting. 

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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #10 on: 20 July 2012, 11:59:04 »
I use Uziel's as lance commanders for one of the fast support/strike lances I like to field.... Uziel 2S, Wolftrap, Stinger (3P or 5T) and a Wasp 8T
I have used the 3S in this same lance, but the 2S works better with the LBX10 from the Wolftrap....

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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #11 on: 20 July 2012, 14:32:29 »
Haven't really used the Uziel much, though I am impressed that each variant seems to fulfill a radically different niche.

-3S: This is basically a Phoenix Hawk whit an AA gun bolted on. It's a mobile close-range fighter first and foremost, and the LB-2 can almost be  ignored(or fired at hideous t-hit numbers for the hell of it) until you get into the situation where and LB-X becomes a lifesaver. Plunk this thing into a skirmisher, strike, or scout lance, and it'll fight with everyone else, and save everyone's bacon when the time comes to bring down an airstrike, VTOL, or start htting a hovercraft before it gets into range.

-2S: It's like a P-Hawk and a Warhammer had a baby, and said offspring got all the best parts! Tailor-made as a striker, this will put some serious oomph into your strike or skirmish lances, and could also cause fits as a deep raider. Finally, stick one into the command slot of a scout lance, and you've got something that can pull everyone else's tail out of the fire if they run into something they can't handle, or take down any really juicy targets they might find.

Jacob: An interesting brawler, this can go into a variety of lances, ranging from generic battle lances, cavalry lances, or even in fire or assault lances as an escort. If you find a good target, get into range fast, and empty your ammo bins into his face it's that simple.

Jacob II: This one is especially fascinating, especially given that it has the same pilot as the Jacob, yet relies on an opposite fighting style. While the Jacob favored blitzkrieg tactics and immediate dispensing of massive amounts of lead, the J-II is a very patient fighter. Use your speed and the accuracy of the LAC-5s to slowly wear down a target at range, then dash in and finish them off with the close-in guns. You'll take hits due to the relatively short range of the LAC-5s compared to similar guns, but that's what the boosted armor is for. I'm honestly really impressed that this Jacob guy manged to radically alter his fighting style to operate such a vastly different machine. (Either that, or he really hated the original Jacob.)
Even more impressive: he's a dead ringer for 97jedi.   ;)
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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #12 on: 20 July 2012, 14:34:42 »
Always be wary of a 'mech piloted by the Battletech Rock Star Sex God. ;D
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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #13 on: 20 July 2012, 14:37:55 »
Compared to the -2S, the -3S is a little bit of a lemon.  That said, the LB-2X makes it a superb harasser with its speed and ability to actually take a hit, unlike other harassers I could name (Cicada, anyone?).  I'd rather rip the LPL out for a PPC or ER PPC, but it can be useful if you suddenly find yourself waaaaay too close to the enemy, or on the tail end of a six hex jump to put you in their rear arc.

All that side, the -2S is just plain better.  Same movement profile, and much improved scouting capabilities thanks to the BAP.  Improved anti-infantry capabilities because of the machine guns.  Load up the SRM launcher with infernos and use it to burninate any infantry or vehicles stupid enough to get in the way at close range and have fun.

I actually kinda like to think of the -2S as the "STG-3G Infinity+1 edition". :D

The -2S has a logical weapon load out.  A bit low tech outside of the BAP, but a pair of PPCs is a solid battery.  A pair of ten point smacks out to a half a klick can put anything in it's weight class in a world of hurt in a few exchanges.  Even heavies will have to worry about a -2S that is harrying them.  Not just the armor but the threat of an ill timed PSR roll from long range.  Sure it is only +1, but the hand of Murphy hovers over the game board, waiting to nudge those dice to bad rolls when it is most ill timed.  It can hunt, crit seek, even blaze in and sweep infantry.  Other than the thin(ish) armor a decent all arounder, a prime mech to tap as a medium Cavalry or Scout lance leader.

The -3S loadout reads like they emptied out a bin of left over weapons from other projects and stuck on what they found.  Or a bad case of Shiney New Toy Syndrome when 'improving' the weapon suite.

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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #14 on: 20 July 2012, 14:42:10 »
I really wonder if they didn't get the descriptions backwards.  The 3S was the prototype, the 2S the refined production model.
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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #15 on: 20 July 2012, 15:02:42 »
The TRO page is pretty explicit that the -2S is the prototype.

This actually kinda makes sense considering the state of warfare by the time of the Uziel's introduction.  Combined arms was everywhere during the FedCom Civil War and Jihad.  The -3S reflects that.  The LPL kills things at close range with deadly accuracy, and the LB-2X is the IS's premier VTOL/ASF killer of the day and age, and does pretty good against regular vehicles too.  The ER Medium and pair of ER Smalls add decent firepower for backstabbing, too.

In contrast, the -2S is pretty dedicated to killing 'Mechs and scouting in force.  The MGs are pretty much afterthoughts for dealing with stray infantry compared to the rest of the armament.

Against an RCT or a Level III/IV, I'd take the -3S for the utility at least half the time, though honestly if the ER Medium and an ER Small got ripped out and replaced by either a BAP or an ECM, it'd be a sight more useful as a scout/skirmisher.
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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #16 on: 20 July 2012, 15:21:57 »
I have found the 3S as a good vehicle hunter.

The 2S as stated earlier is a good headhunter.  2 PPCs and jump jets make it hard not for me to like it.

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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #17 on: 20 July 2012, 15:30:57 »
I have found the 3S as a good vehicle hunter.

The 2S as stated earlier is a good headhunter.  2 PPCs and jump jets make it hard not for me to like it.

As odd as it sounds, it's great for dealing with infantry as well- the MGs obviously, but the SRMs can be loaded up with inferno or flechette rounds if you wish, the mobility allows it to easily move in and out of range to deal with targets, and the PPCs are just the thing to tell supporting APCs and the like where to stuff it.
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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #18 on: 20 July 2012, 15:33:49 »
If we talk about prototypes, I think that -2S is real world prototype simply because TRO 3067 (2002) canonized many MechWarrior 4: Vengeance (2000) designs. And in action PC game you wouldn't had much success with a 'Mech armed with small-caliber autocannon and short-range laser.

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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #19 on: 20 July 2012, 15:36:30 »
That's true.  The Uziel in MW4 mounted by default two PPCs one in each arm, two MGs, one in each torso, and one SRM-6 in the "Missile Rack" that doesn't really correspond to any specific location but fits well enough in the Center Torso to match the design.

Then again, in MW4, every weapon is as accurate as you are as a pilot, and vehicles didn't take motive crits so much as they did explode violently in a stiff breeze.
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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #20 on: 20 July 2012, 15:40:20 »
That's true.  The Uziel in MW4 mounted by default two PPCs one in each arm, two MGs, one in each torso, and one SRM-6 in the "Missile Rack" that doesn't really correspond to any specific location but fits well enough in the Center Torso to match the design.

Then again, in MW4, every weapon is as accurate as you are as a pilot, and vehicles didn't take motive crits so much as they did explode violently in a stiff breeze.

Or under a foot. Do the LRM carrier stomp!  O0
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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #21 on: 20 July 2012, 15:48:52 »
If we talk about prototypes, I think that -2S is real world prototype simply because TRO 3067 (2002) canonized many MechWarrior 4: Vengeance (2000) designs. And in action PC game you wouldn't had much success with a 'Mech armed with small-caliber autocannon and short-range laser.

I did just fine with the light autocannons (the small lasers not so much), using much the same tactic that the Uziel uses on the board. Plick with the AC at range until both sides get stuck in, then charge in and gang up on an enemy. Once the nice opening for your attack has passed, proceed to run away (preferably by jumping over terrain to avoid pursuit) and wait for a new opportunity.
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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #22 on: 20 July 2012, 16:51:18 »
The 2S is a perfect (for me) example of what a good designer can do with advanced tech. It is, as someone mentioned already, a SW-era Warhammer with slightly less armor, fewer secondary weapons, but vastly improved speed and mobility, all for about the same pricetag. I could wish it mounted FF to maximize what armor it DOES have, but such a thing is easily in the realm of field refits.

I'm usually not a fan of XL engines, but considering that this is an ideal heavy scout and I tend to run scenarios like the ones in my signature, where speed restricts what turn a 'Mech can deploy on, the Uziel-2S is a solid choice for IS commanders. Not many 'Mechs at 6/9 can carry weapons capable of doing enough harm to an Uziel to put it down before it deals out way more damage than it has taken, and most of those are Clan 'Mechs - I've actually seen one outfight a Storm Crow, which is no small feat.

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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #23 on: 21 July 2012, 02:45:29 »
Not unless you're talking light ferro.  It doesn't have enough free crits for regular ff.  As much as I like the 2S, I think it's a bit undersinked if you're going to be jumping a lot.  I'd probably trade the jets for MASC (which conveniently frees up enough space for ferro, allowing for an extra 15 points of armor).
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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #24 on: 21 July 2012, 02:50:30 »
Not unless you're talking light ferro.  It doesn't have enough free crits for regular ff.  As much as I like the 2S, I think it's a bit undersinked if you're going to be jumping a lot.
I disagree - a jump of 6 plus a PPC and the SRMs is heat neutral, so you've still got a potential PSR at no-heat.  And even if you do start to cook from repeat alphas, that 180m horizontal and 36m vertical means you can get a good bit of cover between you and an opponent - or at least generate a +3 THM if you're stuck out in the open...
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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #25 on: 21 July 2012, 03:08:52 »
I've liked the Uziel since MW4 but have only really used it on MegaMech against the Bot

I can't see the point of the -3S but am a fan of the -2S, even if I do prefer to try to tweak it to get more armour and heatsinks...

I think the role of the -3S doesn't want to waste space/weight on being a heat-neutral jumping-alpha monster because it isn't a combat animal: it is, as some have said, a heavy Striker 'Mech. It is designed to be jumping or running around finding the enemy, a few slashing engagements but mostly keeping moving to avoid getting hit before possibly going back in to finish off something wounded by the Trooper 'Mechs it is supporting
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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #26 on: 21 July 2012, 10:25:53 »
Not unless you're talking light ferro.  It doesn't have enough free crits for regular ff.  As much as I like the 2S, I think it's a bit undersinked if you're going to be jumping a lot.  I'd probably trade the jets for MASC (which conveniently frees up enough space for ferro, allowing for an extra 15 points of armor).

Some of us old timers remember when most mechs would overheat if you fired all your primary weapons.  If you are jumping with a 2S it is likely that you won't have a good shot, and will only fire one PPC, or are close enough to use the secondary weapons, particularly if going for the backstab.  Despite the tempations you do not want to wire down your triggers for the full fight.

And according to the MUL the Uziel is on the merc list.  O0

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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #27 on: 21 July 2012, 11:06:55 »
Its funny to me how the Jacob II would easily loose the AES for a single targeting computer for nothing but a gain- it has no lower arms to punch with, and now gains an extra -1 to the MPLs.
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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #28 on: 21 July 2012, 13:39:03 »
The UZL "Jacob II" very much has lower arms.

On top of that, pulling the A.E.S. for a Targeting Computer leaves you one ton overweight unless you tear out the Supercharger as well.
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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #29 on: 21 July 2012, 16:38:21 »
I loved the 2S. It is a nice cavalry unit and very cheap in BV. Walk or run, fire both PPC until you reach heat 6, then fire only one. Oddly enough lyrans got the best medium mechs, from the advanced ones (Lynx, Starslayer) to the "El Cheapo" ones, (Bushwacker, Nightsky, Uziel and Blitzkireg).
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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #30 on: 21 July 2012, 17:21:55 »
I loved the 2S. It is a nice cavalry unit and very cheap in BV. Walk or run, fire both PPC until you reach heat 6, then fire only one. Oddly enough lyrans got the best medium mechs, from the advanced ones (Lynx, Starslayer) to the "El Cheapo" ones, (Bushwacker, Nightsky, Uziel and Blitzkireg).

The Starslayer is probably the cheapest mech on that list, due to the SFE.   Don't forget the Enfield either, which is basically an Enforcer clone. 

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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #31 on: 21 July 2012, 18:45:35 »
always like the Uziel, not sure about the name but it is certialy a scout leader by any incanation.  Pretty much field the same role as the phoenix hawk, big enough to take a light pounding form lighter design, but fast enough to keep up with most of your scout machine.  Like most the 2s is my favorite and am shock that wasn't the base model with the 3s being the varient.   Lack of heatsink hamper it from upgraded those PPC to ER but with good fire mangement you can still fire both in several turn before having to retreat to cool down.  Giving the armor you don't want to tangle too long against heavier machine , but that doesn't mean with a good pilot and sound tactic you can not handle something 10tons heavier.   It should avoid most heavies giving that it lack the armor for long engagement against most, but there few heavy that can out run it.  Combination of jump jet and speed is more then enough for it to retreat if it meet with it can't handle. 

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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #32 on: 21 July 2012, 22:58:41 »
I actually don't find the standard PPCs to be a huge detriment.  Nearly anything light and fast enough to catch it isn't going to carry the armor to want to get close to that kind of firepower, or be able to close if tagged by a few PPC hits.  Anything big enough to stand a working over is something the Uziel isn't going to want to tangle with for long, alone, and/or at close range.  The -2S is kind of a 'battlecruiser' design in a way, just try not to replicated the RN's mistake and remember that even if you have the firepower you don't have the armor to go toe to toe with larger units.

And yes that would make the 3S Fisher's ' Outrageous' Class

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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #33 on: 22 July 2012, 04:51:18 »
I actually don't find the standard PPCs to be a huge detriment.  Nearly anything light and fast enough to catch it isn't going to carry the armor to want to get close to that kind of firepower, or be able to close if tagged by a few PPC hits.  Anything big enough to stand a working over is something the Uziel isn't going to want to tangle with for long, alone, and/or at close range.  The -2S is kind of a 'battlecruiser' design in a way, just try not to replicated the RN's mistake and remember that even if you have the firepower you don't have the armor to go toe to toe with larger units.

And yes that would make the 3S Fisher's ' Outrageous' Class

I don't know if the Uziel can really be fairly compared to a "battlecruiser". The main weakness of those ships (at least those following the Royal Navy's school of thought) was that they weren't sufficiently armored against their own guns because they were intended to fight at worst against smaller cruisers which they'd conveniently have the twin advantages of both greater range (because in real life, unlike BT, that tends to go up with caliber) and a heavier broadside against while roughly matching their intended prey's speed. They were built for speed and range to help police and protect an empire, not to face off against other warships their own size in a contest of equals -- that was the battleships' job.

The whole concept honestly just doesn't translate well onto any battlefield where range advantage isn't a function of sheer gun size anymore, be it the early 21st century in the real world or the fictional 31st in the BattleTech setting, because that change renders one of its basic assumptions moot. Never mind that the Uziel, while not maximally armored, actually can take fire from other units in its own weight class fairly well for at least a while...

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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #34 on: 23 July 2012, 04:53:50 »
Hmm... Nasty Harassment lance? Pair of Uziel 2S's with other one swapping the BAP for ECM, and then a pair of infighters, say, Commando's? Nasty or really nasty to find jumping around your command and control areas...
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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #35 on: 15 August 2012, 20:07:41 »

Not a big fan of this design in general, but it has it's good points. Excellent MP rating for it's weight class is the biggest perk of the Uziel.

The 'Mech's speed combined with the reach of the -3S is nice. Reminds me a slower, land-bound Warrior H7. The potent close-in firepower isn't nothing to sneeze at, even though I would prefer the standard lasers over the ER versions on the UZL-3S (to cut back on the waste heat a little; every little bit helps). The -3S is a decent, if somewhat problematic, cavalry design. But with the less than stellar armor and lack of CASE protection, taking into account the ammo carried, a medium trooper it is not.

The factory variant has issues of it's own, even though it packs some serious punch. It's a more of a walking explosive device than the original, with the damned machine guns being totally unnecessary. Heat issues are amplified and armor protection remains the same (with no CASE). However, the potent SRM-6 remains and an active probe is added to the mix, which are good things. As is the retained jump capability, which along with the loss in range of the main guns, is both a blessing and a curse on the -2S.

Despite the glaring flaws, the UZL-2S makes a good recon/sweep/screening package, as well as a potent scout hunter. Running it in the same role as the -3S can be a little tricky at times, but it is doable. The only real shock with the -2S is that the designers didn't go with ER PPCs to make this variant totally suck ass. As it stands, the standard Parti-Kill models are a good, solid choice.

My group hasn't had a chance to play the "Jacob" variants as of yet. But on paper, the "Jacob II" looks to be the best of the breed, in terms of common sense and utility. I'm unimpressed with the original "Jacob" custom variant for a couple of reasons. But the most glaring problem, from my POV, is the RACs. Three tons for two guns is nowhere near enough to cover most of the "standard" situations you may encounter on the tabletop. I consider three tons per gun to be the ideal minimum in the magazine. Personal experience has taught me this, in the most unpleasant of ways more often than not.

In conclusion, the Uziel isn't perfect by no stretch of the imagination. But it has enough strong points in both factory versions to be a workable ,and effective, design if the gamer(s) play their cards right.

Just my two cents worth.





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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #36 on: 15 August 2012, 23:14:17 »
As is the retained jump capability, which along with the loss in range of the main guns, is both a blessing and a curse on the -2S.

Loss in range of it's main guns?  ??? ??? ???

"You keep saying that word, but I do not think it means what you think it means."

The 3S has as it's 'main guns' a Inner Sphere Large Pulse Laser and a LB-2X.  The 2S has a pair of standard PPCs.  The LPL has half the range of the PPCs, and while the LB-2X has more range, most players consider a single AC/2 as an annoyance, even to a VTOL.  Even giving the 3S it's ERML the 2S can kick out 25% more damage in a mid range exchange of fire.

Not sure where you get the idea of the bomb comment WRT the 2S either.  The 3S has two tons of ammo, one for the SRM-6, the other for the LB-2X.  The 2S has 1.5 tons of ammo, a ton for it's SRM-6, and half ton for the MGs.  With that 100 rounds feeding two MGs it can pump the ammo to empty as fast as the 3S can it's cannon ammo.  And under TW rules the MGs are highly useful against PBIs, a 3S is nearly helpless against the same, unless it had the foresight to load infernos or frag SRMs.

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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #37 on: 16 August 2012, 01:53:25 »

Quote
Loss in range of it's main guns?  ??? ??? ???

Exactly. The particle weapon lacks the range of the light LB-X autocannon.


Quote
"You keep saying that word, but I do not think it means what you think it means."

Play nice, Nick. I'm well aware of what it means. And I don't consider the large pulse laser as a "main gun" in this case. Anybody who plays this design smart will be using the LB 2X more often than not. If you are using the LPL as a "main gun", you are doing it wrong in my honest opinion.


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The 3S has as it's 'main guns' a Inner Sphere Large Pulse Laser and a LB-2X.

See above.


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The 2S has a pair of standard PPCs

Agreed that these are the "main guns" of the -2S. It's more or less obvious.


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The LPL has half the range of the PPCs, and while the LB-2X has more range, most players consider a single AC/2 as an annoyance, even to a VTOL.

Once again, I don't consider the LPL a "main gun". It's a secondary weapon, considering the proper role (from my POV) of the -3S.

Use of a Class-2 autocannon as a long range harassment/support weapon is a time tested and "battle proven" tradition in Battletech. If you don't have the armor to stand up to sustained punishment, combined with unprotected ammo and a vulnerable powerplant, range and maneuver are your best friends. It's worked for the old H7 Warrior, and Clan death traps like the stock Mithras for a long time. And if things are hot and heavy, any loss of armor protection is a pain in the ass. Just ask me about being weathered down by dug in Pikes, before reaching the more potent defensive stuff, if you underestimate the impact of this family of autocannons on the tabletop.


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Even giving the 3S it's ERML the 2S can kick out 25% more damage in a mid range exchange of fire.

I never disputed the superior punch of the UZL-2S when compared to the -3S. But in any case, running either variant in a medium ranged slugging match "on the line" (except under duress) is ill advised. So is taking on units with serious firepower in that regard. Neither variant are "trooper" designs because of the obvious flaws in key areas of design. They are better used in other jobs besides combat generalists.


Quote
Not sure where you get the idea of the bomb comment WRT the 2S either.  The 3S has two tons of ammo, one for the SRM-6, the other for the LB-2X.  The 2S has 1.5 tons of ammo, a ton for it's SRM-6, and half ton for the MGs.

The -3S carries 270 damage points in ammo fully loaded. The -2S 380 damage points in ammo fully loaded. Neither has CASE. While usage may vary, odds are (from my experience) that the higher point value is still a nastier proposition in an ammo explosion, even after expending ammo in most scenarios (if using the weapons in a traditional manner, that is). Machine gun ammo has, and still is, a serious risk for marginal gain without a CASE or CASE II system. Something the -2S lacks.


Quote
With that 100 rounds feeding two MGs it can pump the ammo to empty as fast as the 3S can it's cannon ammo.

The rules we use states that one point of machine gun ammo is considered a burst, not a single shot (we never adopted the rapid fire rules for MGs or most of the Total Warfare infantry rules. Only the Maxtech multi-target rules were adopted). With that in mind, Class-2 autocannon magazines have a better chance of running dry faster than that of a machine gun on our tabletop.


Quote
And under TW rules the MGs are highly useful against PBIs, a 3S is nearly helpless against the same, unless it had the foresight to load infernos or frag SRMs.


Regardless of the ruleset, machine guns are what I call situational weapons. A player isn't going to use them all of the time.

In my experience, machine guns come into play:

1. When light infantry gets caught out in the open and the attacker is in MG range. Which is rare in our games. Good cover is life for any infantry unit, even battle armor. And cover negates most of the advantages of machine guns against light infantry. And the situation is worse for machine guns when it comes to heavy infantry and battle armor formations.

2. Extra firepower when unloading everything on a target out of desperation.

3. An afterthought shot combined with other secondaries at a close range target.

4. When attacking/defending against light vehicles.

The only real advantages of using machine guns is;

1. Null heat, except when using the old rapid fire rules. Then a machine gun can generate more heat than an ERML. 

2. Infantry suppression. But only of the ammo is secured in a CASE'd magazine.

Toting that much unprotected explosive ammo for a weapon that won't be used except in a few situations is inefficient. Small pulse lasers and plasma (fusion) flamers would be better options if you are not going to protect your payload.

Like I said, walking ****** bombs waiting to happen.

The -3S isn't "helpless", as you put it. The lasers can kill troops. And while a bit of overkill, the large pulse laser is great for plastering infantry cover. But considering what my group considers the proper roles of the Uziel, slugging it out with the grunts isn't in the job description. The Uziel should be moving, preferably at flank speed to keep the numbers up. Infantry shouldn't have much of a chance to engage this design.

With one ton of SRM ammo, HEAP is the best option for engaging a variety of armored targets. I wouldn't waste that ton on anything specialized in this case. Play the Uziel smart, and one doesn't have to worry about engaging non-BA infantry on a regular basis.

I'll let it be known that my original post is based on both personal experience and the rules we use. Others, such as yourself, will differ.









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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #38 on: 16 August 2012, 11:01:16 »
Play nice, Nick. I'm well aware of what it means. And I don't consider the large pulse laser as a "main gun" in this case. Anybody who plays this design smart will be using the LB 2X more often than not. If you are using the LPL as a "main gun", you are doing it wrong in my honest opinion.

The problem being that huge (15 hex) gap between what you term the 3S's 'main gun' and the meat of its firepower.  Either you close to use the rest of the guns, OR they amount to thirteen tons of dead weight.  And you said 'main guns' plural, yet your whole rebuttal revolves around the LB-2X, which is a singular weapon mount on this machine.

Quote
Once again, I don't consider the LPL a "main gun". It's a secondary weapon, considering the proper role (from my POV) of the -3S.

Use of a Class-2 autocannon as a long range harassment/support weapon is a time tested and "battle proven" tradition in Battletech. If you don't have the armor to stand up to sustained punishment, combined with unprotected ammo and a vulnerable powerplant, range and maneuver are your best friends. It's worked for the old H7 Warrior, and Clan death traps like the stock Mithras for a long time. And if things are hot and heavy, any loss of armor protection is a pain in the ass. Just ask me about being weathered down by dug in Pikes, before reaching the more potent defensive stuff, if you underestimate the impact of this family of autocannons on the tabletop.

The sticking point being that by price you can field a full star of Mithras, a reinforced company of h-7 Warriors, or a couple lances of Pikes.  In addition their is serious apples to oranges comparison of cheap combat vehicles carrying one AC/2 and a top of the line mech chassis doing the same as it's primary weapon.  To expand, the Pike has three AC/2s, enough ammo for a siege, and would deployed in numbers.  On a BV2 level about two to one, or 6 AC/2s to the single weapon of a Uziel.  The Warriors are 4 to one on a BV2 level, and have the advantage of being able to rertrograde faster than most mechs can run at them on clear terrain.  Even for those fast enough to run at them faster than they can back off, most can be held up by even modest terrain features the Warrior can drift over.  The Uziel has neither the advantage of numbers, nor multiple AC/2 mounts.  And the Mithras?  That tank is a known death trap for a reason, and at least the pair of Clan ERMLs are serious backup weapons.  Some would consider them the primary and the LB-2X a backup plink gun.

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I never disputed the superior punch of the UZL-2S when compared to the -3S. But in any case, running either variant in a medium ranged slugging match "on the line" (except under duress) is ill advised. So is taking on units with serious firepower in that regard. Neither variant are "trooper" designs because of the obvious flaws in key areas of design. They are better used in other jobs besides combat generalists.

I can see the 2S as a midranged harasser, the ability in potential to force a PSR at up to 18 hexes is potent.  The 3S has the LB-2X, then nothing till the ERML gets range, and for the most part it has an infighter's armament without the armor for that kind of game.

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rThe -3S isn't "helpless", as you put it. The lasers can kill troops. And while a bit of overkill, the large pulse laser is great for plastering infantry cover. But considering what my group considers the proper roles of the Uziel, slugging it out with the grunts isn't in the job description. The Uziel should be moving, preferably at flank speed to keep the numbers up. Infantry shouldn't have much of a chance to engage this design.

The LPL can kill 3 troopers (1/10 +2), the lasers a soldier each, and another for the LB-2X.  About a single average MG burst.  And that costs you your entire anti-material salvo for the round.  The MGs are more for sweeping the annoying PBI platoon that gets delusions of grandure or if doing behind the lines calvary raids hitting defending PBIs and support troops.  It also polishes the 2S's credentials as a medium weight generalist.

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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #39 on: 16 August 2012, 11:28:26 »
The place where Oldfart and I disagree isn't that the -2S loses range, it's that somehow that lost range is as significant as to make the -2S much worse.  Yes, you do lose range.  However, you gain literally ten times the damage output as soon as the -2S reaches its long range, and it has the speed to get there.  Go ahead and plink with a single LB-2X for nine hexes.  That's three turns on a salt flat and about the same number of hits if there's actually cover on the field.  Six damage to get in range, and then the -2S is dealing ten times that, and still six hexes beyond the next longest ranged weapon on the -3S.

If anything, the -3S is the subpar version, because while it can harass, it's not enough of a threat to actually required reaction.  The -2S most assuredly is a threat.
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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #40 on: 16 August 2012, 15:49:47 »
never used on of these in a game against a human player, but from my megamek experiance, the 2S is very much the more dangerous design.. sure, the LB-2X has a slight range advantage, but unless your fighting trucks, two points a hit is just gonna annoy your opponent, not actually hurt them. and the LPL frankly is not much of a threat either. sure it's the only decent 'long' weapon the -3S has, but that just says a lot about how lousy the mech is.

whereas the -2S a hell on wheels. twin PPC's and the heatsinks to use them extensively on the run mean that not only are you putting the hurt to your opponent, but because your nice and fast your opponent will have a hard time to catch you. this is a mech you can assign to mechwarriors when their P-hawks or warhammer's are gone. the fact it can sub for both is a great testament to the smart use of advanced tech.
in a scouting role, the -2S is really nasty too. while the PPC's range farther than the active probe, if you stumble over a hidden unit, said unit is going to be right in the ideal range bracket to be savaged by the PPC's. not to mention that most scout hunters aren't armed to handle a mini-warhammer. in the role of scout hunter too, it excells. those two PPC's can put down most medium and light scout mechs really quick, and the mobility means it can keep up with all but the quickest. and the quickest usually don't have the toughness to survive one volley from the -2S's guns.

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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #41 on: 17 August 2012, 10:29:17 »
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The problem being that huge (15 hex) gap between what you term the 3S's 'main gun' and the meat of its firepower.  Either you close to use the rest of the guns, OR they amount to thirteen tons of dead weight.  And you said 'main guns' plural, yet your whole rebuttal revolves around the LB-2X, which is a singular weapon mount on this machine.

You might be missing the point. The secondaries are by no means "dead weight", if the Uziel bites off what it can chew. Maintaining long range modifiers, maneuver, and long range sniping is for cavalry machines on a tabletop full of shit that can kill an Uziel deader than hell in very short order if one acts the damned fool, and closes from "long bow" to "spear" and "knife" fighting ranges with Challengers, Black Knights and Dire Wolves strolling about. Even the "mighty" -2S won't last long enough with it's superior mid-ranged firepower, considering it's poor armor and unprotected ammo combined together (the same goes for the -3S to a large extent).

And let's not get into a grammar dispute here. In my original post, the "main guns" (plural) I was referring to was the PPCs of the -2S. It in no way implies that the -3S has more than one main gun. If I was misunderstood, my apologies.


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The sticking point being that by price you can field a full star of Mithras, a reinforced company of h-7 Warriors, or a couple lances of Pikes.


Sorry, bro, but price and battle value doesn't come into play in my group's games, since neither is used. I rate and compare machines individually by roles, capabilities, strengths, and weaknesses (flaws). So, the above is a moot point on my end.



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In addition their is serious apples to oranges comparison of cheap combat vehicles carrying one AC/2 and a top of the line mech chassis doing the same as it's primary weapon.


See the next to last line above. I look at them all from the perspective of mechanized combat units, not the tired old 'Mechs versus vehicles perspective. Nor do I take the position of "cheapness and flaws is the word of God" and "optimizing and expense are the Devil" like some do when it comes to this game. Effectiveness in given roles is the only issue, regardless of costs and class of mechanized combat unit. And I hardly consider the Uziel to be "top of the line".



Quote
To expand, the Pike has three AC/2s, enough ammo for a siege, and would deployed in numbers.  On a BV2 level about two to one, or 6 AC/2s to the single weapon of a Uziel.  The Warriors are 4 to one on a BV2 level, and have the advantage of being able to rertrograde faster than most mechs can run at them on clear terrain.  Even for those fast enough to run at them faster than they can back off, most can be held up by even modest terrain features the Warrior can drift over.


While we can agree on the strengths of the Warrior and deployment schemes of the Pike, it's beside the point of why I bought them up. The point is that they have established the precedent of the Class-2 family of autocannons as long ranged trouble makers. The Uziel has the speed and mobility to effectively cause some considerable headaches at long range with this weapon.

And once again, with all due respect, battle value means jack shit to me, since my playgroup does not use that flawed system.



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The Uziel has neither the advantage of numbers, nor multiple AC/2 mounts.


Run it with similar units, or other Uziel-3S units, in lance or company-sized formations and you get your numbers. No ''Mech is an island in this game.

The last part is only semi-relevant to the argument here, although more than one would be nice.



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And the Mithras?  That tank is a known death trap for a reason, and at least the pair of Clan ERMLs are serious backup weapons.  Some would consider them the primary and the LB-2X a backup plink gun.


Serious back-ups, yes. Primaries? Not in a ****** million years. There is a reason why the light autocannon was mounted as a main gun. It all goes back to the "death trap" issue. Range is one of the ingredients of life with this thin-skinned hunk of Clan shit.

But if somebody wants to run their Mithras like damned Galleons, then more power to them. But I don't drink that particular flavor of Kool-Aid.


Quote
I can see the 2S as a midranged harasser, the ability in potential to force a PSR at up to 18 hexes is potent.  The 3S has the LB-2X, then nothing till the ERML gets range, and for the most part it has an infighter's armament without the armor for that kind of game.

But yet against serious opposition, the -2S has the armor to get into the mid-ranged brackets and play for a substantial period of time? Not.

Neither variant is armored for a slugging match or getting too close to the heavy hitters found on the "line".  Which is one reason they are considered, to a large extent, specialists amongst my crew.

The secondaries of the -3S are sufficient for opposition it can deal with without dying quick-like. And the -2S is best used bringing it's "deadly duo" to play against enemy recon platforms and high speed flankers as a screening unit, which generally don't have the firepower to threaten it's light armor with quick removal. And as a recon/sweep unit itself, the twin PPCs keep the scout hunters extremely honest.

But slash attacks against the big dogs isn't my cup of tea with this thin-skinned thing. "Hit n' Run" can be a tricky proposition. Firepower isn't armor. As we used to say, "Use it smart, or lose it quick". I prefer to keep as many of my Uziels up and running as possible. But I guess pick-up gamers don't have those worries.


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The LPL can kill 3 troopers (1/10 +2), the lasers a soldier each, and another for the LB-2X.  About a single average MG burst.  And that costs you your entire anti-material salvo for the round


Which is enough to keep infantry honest, and players from getting stupid, in our games. But I agree with the point about going nuts with your load out. But the trick is not making a habit of engaging infantry with this model. Or if forced to, fight to break contact. And don't forget that you have team mates to help deal with trouble.


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The MGs are more for sweeping the annoying PBI platoon that gets delusions of grandure or if doing behind the lines calvary raids hitting defending PBIs and support troops.


Good point and sound thinking. Machine guns can indeed handle these tasks well, if the opportunity arises.  My issue with the machine guns in this case, is the lack of Cellular Ammunition Storage Equipment combined with the weak armor. The risks of the machine guns' unprotected payload doesn't pan out, considering how infantry tactical doctrines work in our games. If the -2S had CASE, I would not have issue with them. It would be a case of "they're nice to have if I need them". As it stands, they are another hazard that could be done without, since I don't consider the MGs absolutely necessary.

And for the record, infantry doesn't get a case of the stupids very often in our games. Players running them know the score, and know that flak and ablative armor don't have a great big "S" painted on the chest plates. Like I said earlier in the thread, machine guns are situational weapons.


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It also polishes the 2S's credentials as a medium weight generalist.


This we will have to disagree on. Big time. The Uziel is good at certain things, enough to make it useful. But it's far from being a good, dedicated line generalist or medium trooper 'Mech. 



The place where Oldfart and I disagree isn't that the -2S loses range, it's that somehow that lost range is as significant as to make the -2S much worse.  Yes, you do lose range.  However, you gain literally ten times the damage output as soon as the -2S reaches its long range, and it has the speed to get there.  Go ahead and plink with a single LB-2X for nine hexes.  That's three turns on a salt flat and about the same number of hits if there's actually cover on the field.  Six damage to get in range, and then the -2S is dealing ten times that, and still six hexes beyond the next longest ranged weapon on the -3S.

If anything, the -3S is the subpar version, because while it can harass, it's not enough of a threat to actually required reaction.  The -2S most assuredly is a threat.


The -2S isn't by any means a horrible sewage truck when compared to the -3S. But it (the -3S) is better suited to adding to Team Bad Guy's pain, with better odds of surviving the engagement, when it comes to dealing with "line" troops fighting it out with serious hardware. The LB-2X offers that extra bit of a safety blanket that can make a big difference more often than not (28-36 versus 19-24 at extreme ranges, 19-27/13-18 in the standard long rang brackets). Especially if keeping the to-hit numbers up with movement/range modifiers, using available covering terrain (if any), and have a good gunner operating the thing. So, the -3S isn't a big pile of shit. But it is a specialist and finesse machine.

One of the golden rules of thumb in my neck of the wood is: "If it shoots, it's a combat threat."

And any combat threat warrants attention. Those two point "pin pricks" you considered not worth worrying about might be just what finishes off your engine, blows your ammo, or breaches your cockpit. Or scores that "Golden BB" critical hit on your center torso location, despite most of the armor still being intact. And that is just the "worst case" stuff.

I disregard nothing in either scenarios or campaigns. I have to, as a good player team leader, take into account everything. And in this case:

1. The -3S has the same potential as the -2S in bringing about certain tactical outcomes.

2. The main issue is survival, which losses can be kept at manageable levels by using the correct mission profiles and deployment. Fully integrated combine arms is a set of doctrines that the Uziel seems tailor made for. "Know your role" in the mission. And there is no "I" in "Team" in this game.


Damage curves alone doesn't make the machine. It's a set of factors. Sure the -2S has the punch, combined with the -3S variant's speed and mobility. No argument there. But the -2S also has the shitty armor (for a fifty ton 'Mech) of the -3S. And it also rolls with the same "Old Skool" method of carrying ammo in a mechanized battlefield unit, which any old timey 3025-era player worth their salt knows, is like playing Russian Roulette with high-dollar armored death machines.

That's something else I had to consider over the years of running this design. Hard-won, and hard-bitten, experiences molded my opinion into what it is today.

So, you and I (and Nickky the Z) just have to agree to disagree. Which is no biggie, since variety of opinions and experiences is a damned good thing. And I don't know everything. Sometimes a fresh perspective is needed.

Once again, this is just my two cents worth. Which might not be worth a wheat penny.  :P


 




 















 

« Last Edit: 17 August 2012, 10:34:54 by oldfart3025 »
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Eldragon

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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #42 on: 17 August 2012, 17:12:51 »
Is the Uziel 2S a perfect mech? No. But very, very few mechs are. Every design has its flaws.
You got to judge a mech for what it is, not what its optimized design would be.  Yeah it doesn't have CASE, yeah it has Machine Guns. No it doesn't have 100% armor. But that's ok, because Btech gets really boring if all you do is play with munchkin machines.

Further, you must compare a mech against Mechs of its weight class, tech level, or BV2. Sure there could be Dire Wolves on the board. So Does that mean every mech sucks that can't fight a Dire Wolf? Of course not.

It works best to compare mechs not as a single unit, but as part of a coordinated lance; where the lance mates fill in for each others weaknesses. There are very few stock mechs that don't benefit from a well chosen lance mate.

So having said that...

 I love the Uziel 2S: One of my favorite mechs.  Fell in love when introduced in MW4, and I brought it into my table top games.

Twin PPCs on a 6/9/6 movement curve makes it a great addition to any recon or cavalry lance; And to fill in the harasser role for heavier lances.

The Uziel does very well against mechs its weight, and can handle itself well when out-tonned if used well. Again, the Uzi isn't meant to challenge heavies to a duel. Instead it uses its speed to get into a good position while his lance mates take the hits. While you're distracted by the Warhammer, its the Uziel that sticks the knife in.







Nikas_Zekeval

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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #43 on: 17 August 2012, 21:49:20 »
Also the prime inner sphere long range sniper weapon in the 3058+ timeframe is spelled LGR.  By the time the Inner Sphere gets ultra and LB-2X cannons they already have a superior long range cannon in production.  Admittedly twice the mass, but with four times the punch still a bargain.

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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #44 on: 16 May 2019, 01:53:03 »
The only problem is I have with this article is where the original author used the term "upgrading the standard gyro to an extra-light model." An XLG is a side-grade at best, downgrade more realistically.

Both Jacob are nice mechs, but the XL Gyro almost breaks the deal for me.

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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #45 on: 16 May 2019, 02:44:09 »
Interesting that this entire thread seems to have taken place right before the release of the 3067U record sheets and thus does not at all discuss the UZL-8S, which turns the 'Mech into a harasser par excellence.


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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #46 on: 16 May 2019, 07:36:00 »
The only problem is I have with this article is where the original author used the term "upgrading the standard gyro to an extra-light model." An XLG is a side-grade at best, downgrade more realistically.

Both Jacob are nice mechs, but the XL Gyro almost breaks the deal for me.

...You brought a seven-year-old thread out of retirement to post an argument about semantics?
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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #47 on: 16 May 2019, 08:00:46 »
...You brought a seven-year-old thread out of retirement to post an argument about semantics?

You're right, I'll rephrase.

I'll likely be playing through Wof and blake sometime this year. My minimal playtesting with the Jacob hasn't been promising. Anyone have advice for keeping the sweet pilot in the hero ride deathtrap alive?

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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #48 on: 16 May 2019, 10:48:22 »
It's fragile, but hardly a deathtrap. Above all else, keep moving. If you're not getting your maximum TMM and benefiting from at least a bit of terrain AND your enemy doesn't have something bigger and slower to distract it with easier shots, it better mean you've decided to break LoS for a turn and try for better positioning next turn. Jacob should never go for the quick kill, he should always be playing the long grind. Being alive to contribute next turn is far more important than getting the telling blow this turn.

Jacob:  Stay at long range, and slowly wear stuff down from the edge of RAC range. Keep your RoF up, so that when you do hit you're doing good damage. Jamming isn't a problem since you should always be willing to break off behind cover for a turn or two anyway, and you've got deep bins. Only close into medium range or better if you have a chance to play the bully and shred something lighter than you.

Jacob II:  Similar to the above, except you're now extremely well equipped to load up on precision ammo and go scout hunting. Kill Malaks, and harass Pretas and Lightrays into uselessness. Let your buddies take care of anything bigger.
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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #49 on: 16 May 2019, 16:15:11 »
I'll add to Weirdo's advice by saying the Jacob variants make excellent cleanup 'mechs. The Jacob can deliver 20 seperate hits, each one a potential crit. Combined with its speed, and unit with exposed internals is at risk of serious damage. The Jacob should focus on being in the right position to land a coup de grace, and let the other Widows set up the kills.

The Jacob II is similarly good, but with the addition of extreme accuracy. The combination of Pulse Lasers, Precision Ammo, and AES gives you a -3 to hit fast targets. The Streak 6 is less accurate, but still a powerful crit seeker. You can terrorize scout 'mechs until armor breaches happen, then fill them full of pain.
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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #50 on: 16 May 2019, 16:32:09 »
So . . . the Jacob is the Uziel folks made for MW4?, the double RAC/5 monster?

Its a mobile skimishing medium . . . not a death trap, definitely requires skill/finesse.  Always been a fan of the walking egg mech, I love the double PPC version for FCCW play.
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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #51 on: 16 May 2019, 16:48:49 »
Whoa, I forgot this article existed!  I'll go back and edit the -8S into the OP when I get a minute.  :D
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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #52 on: 16 May 2019, 16:55:52 »
I'd ask you consider doing a whole new version, if things have changed enough over time for a new assessment.

And maybe throw in the AS considerations as well?
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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #53 on: 16 May 2019, 17:00:19 »
So . . . the Jacob is the Uziel folks made for MW4?, the double RAC/5 monster?

The 2S, Dual PPC, Dual MG, SRM 6 was the stock Uziel from Mechwarrior 4 in 2000

For whatever reason, we got the Uziel 3S in TRO 3067 published in 2002 (right when I took my first hiatus from BT)

The Jacob's custom Uziel is from Wolf and Blake Starter Book published in 2008

The Uziel 8S originated in Battlecorp if I'm not mistaken.

Your right the Uziel is built to be a range fighter first and foremost, the SRMs are for whatever that closes the distance or for the big push forward. The 8S is the exception with more speed and maneuverability to allow for hit-and-run attacks. 
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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #54 on: 16 May 2019, 17:19:38 »
I'd ask you consider doing a whole new version, if things have changed enough over time for a new assessment.

And maybe throw in the AS considerations as well?

It's just a new variant, the rest of the article isn't changing.

Alpha Strike is here and probably why I forgot this earlier article ever existed.
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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #55 on: 16 May 2019, 20:06:45 »
well since someone decided to resurrect this thread I may as well comment.  Boy the 8S is clearly a close range brawler that want to use the guardian to sneak up and mug his opponent.  the slower speed is a bit of a worried only cause now there more mech that can out run it.  Not sure the extra improve jump jets is enough of a benefit.  Thankfully since it weapon are steak and pulse it not hurt to badly if it the pilot decided to be a member of the house of pain and just JUMP around.  it should be a nightmare against those that get too close as it could easily jump into someone back who no expecting that extra range from the jets. 

I got to say this is the mech you take in Solaris 7 match or in a city where you are force your opponent into close range and any who pilot should use the terrain and guardian to close in in hopefully unsuspecting victim anywhere else.   (I suspect without checking it lack the crit for stealth armor as that would really make one decide that is brown pants day)

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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #56 on: 16 May 2019, 20:18:09 »
well since someone decided to resurrect this thread I may as well comment.  Boy the 8S is clearly a close range brawler that want to use the guardian to sneak up and mug his opponent.  the slower speed is a bit of a worried only cause now there more mech that can out run it.  Not sure the extra improve jump jets is enough of a benefit.  Thankfully since it weapon are steak and pulse it not hurt to badly if it the pilot decided to be a member of the house of pain and just JUMP around.  it should be a nightmare against those that get too close as it could easily jump into someone back who no expecting that extra range from the jets. 

I got to say this is the mech you take in Solaris 7 match or in a city where you are force your opponent into close range and any who pilot should use the terrain and guardian to close in in hopefully unsuspecting victim anywhere else.   (I suspect without checking it lack the crit for stealth armor as that would really make one decide that is brown pants day)

With the IJJs its effective speed over anything but a featureless basin is arguably increased.  Eight jumping MP is a lot.  Also, remember that IJJs cut the heat from jumping in half, so that full distance jump only generates 4 heat.  Between the Pulse Lasers and the jump, you're heat neutral.  Think about that.  The Streak-6 goes off every once in a while, but when it does just drop an MPL next turn and don't give any further thought to it.  The heat curve on this beauty is phenomenal.

EDIT: the article has been updated, and also now includes links to the new (much, much sexier) mini.
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #57 on: 16 May 2019, 21:02:08 »
The 2S, Dual PPC, Dual MG, SRM 6 was the stock Uziel from Mechwarrior 4 in 2000

For whatever reason, we got the Uziel 3S in TRO 3067 published in 2002 (right when I took my first hiatus from BT)

The Jacob's custom Uziel is from Wolf and Blake Starter Book published in 2008

The Uziel 8S originated in Battlecorp if I'm not mistaken.

Your right the Uziel is built to be a range fighter first and foremost, the SRMs are for whatever that closes the distance or for the big push forward. The 8S is the exception with more speed and maneuverability to allow for hit-and-run attacks.

i've sometimes wondered if the 'Jacob' versions weren't meant as a bit of an homage to the dual gauss equipped mechassualt 'Belial' version. physically impossible even using light gauss, but focusing on ballistics makes them come close. 

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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #58 on: 16 May 2019, 21:14:34 »
I always considered the 2S to be one of my go-to medium battlemechs. 6/9/6 and great weapons, if not striking, make for a great machine that hits high marks for its weight class.

Although, funny enough, a lot of discussion on the 3S amongst the guys I usually play with revolves around replacing the LB2X for an Enhanced or standard LRM-10, or an Extended LRM-5.

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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #59 on: 16 May 2019, 21:52:02 »
The 2S, Dual PPC, Dual MG, SRM 6 was the stock Uziel from Mechwarrior 4 in 2000

For whatever reason, we got the Uziel 3S in TRO 3067 published in 2002 (right when I took my first hiatus from BT)

The Jacob's custom Uziel is from Wolf and Blake Starter Book published in 2008

The Uziel 8S originated in Battlecorp if I'm not mistaken.

Your right the Uziel is built to be a range fighter first and foremost, the SRMs are for whatever that closes the distance or for the big push forward. The 8S is the exception with more speed and maneuverability to allow for hit-and-run attacks.

No, I do not know about you but folks I knew switched out to a pair of RAC/5s in the gun slots for MW4 Mercs- which is why I said it was the one folks made, players might have been more accurate.  For the -3S I would want to make the LB-2X a 5 class for more vehicle & AA usefulness.
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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #60 on: 16 May 2019, 21:54:22 »
I think most of my problems with the Uziel Jacob is that I suck with cav mechs that can't jump in general. I'm just sad with a Dragon.
« Last Edit: 16 May 2019, 21:57:30 by Greatclub »

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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #61 on: 16 May 2019, 22:03:47 »
For the -3S I would want to make the LB-2X a 5 class for more vehicle & AA usefulness.

This suddenly makes me kind of sad that we haven't gotten a twin LB-5X/medium pulse bastard combination of 3S, Jacob, and 8S.  You can do it both ways: either 5/8 and keeping the SRM-6, or 6/9/6 with just guns/regular mediums.
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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #62 on: 16 May 2019, 22:15:15 »
No, I do not know about you but folks I knew switched out to a pair of RAC/5s in the gun slots for MW4 Mercs- which is why I said it was the one folks made, players might have been more accurate.  For the -3S I would want to make the LB-2X a 5 class for more vehicle & AA usefulness.

Sorry, when you said 'folks' I thought you meant the developers.

The LB-2X was the only thing that made me scratch my head regarding the -3S, never been a 'golden BB' fan.
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Re: Mech of the Week: UZL-*S Uziel
« Reply #63 on: 19 May 2019, 00:34:55 »
The slower speed is a bit of a worried only cause now there more mech that can out run it.  Not sure the extra improve jump jets is enough of a benefit.  Thankfully since it weapon are steak and pulse it not hurt to badly if it the pilot decided to be a member of the house of pain and just JUMP around.
Any mech that can improve it's TMM by an additional +1 and hit that +4 is generally worth it.  The 36 points of damage it can pump out in a turn is more than respectable for the close range that it has to close with its target.  I got to play the 8S recently and paired it with an Enforcer 7X which is probably the best Enforcer I've played to date.  Turns our when you can jump 8 and possible threaten to pump 60 points of damage combined into a target's rear for around 4k BV people get irritable.

 

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