'Mech of the Week: CGR-XXX Charger

[Fat Guy]

Just use a hatchet and fluff it as being a halberd--the Mortis (iirc) already does that for a scythe, so why not?

Seriously, if they can call that can opener the Hitotsume Kozo is holding a hatchet...    ???

[Scotty]

That's what I'd do.

One better: use a Lance instead of a Hatchet.  You end up with an arguably inferior melee weapon, but the fluff is magnificent.

[Wrangler]

I like the thing, i particularly like the -SB since it's nasty surprise in a blind game in succession wars, when it opens up with Larger Laser"S".  >:D

I can see the 1A1 as bad scout, Scout not suppose to tangled into combat. It's suppose to report in what they saw!  This thing may not have weaponry to fend off attackers, but it has armor to survive to it's job.  Unfortunately, casual playing doesn't let it shine i think.

1A5 is pretty nasty fighter.  I like the LRM 3K version, despite it appearing to be lesser machine in comparison, but it beats a 1A1.  I wasn't fan of De-engining the chassis, since it defeated the purpose. Go fast. 

I still find it amusing in the Stackpole novels, when the upgraded version of the Charger showed up, being labeled by Davion troops as "Charger II"s . When they're actually newly dubbed Hatamoto-Chi. 

[Nikas_Zekeval]

I can see the 1A1 as bad scout, Scout not suppose to tangled into combat. It's suppose to report in what they saw!  This thing may not have weaponry to fend off attackers, but it has armor to survive to it's job.  Unfortunately, casual playing doesn't let it shine i think.

No it fails at it's job because mechs 2/3s the tonnage can outrun it, carry more armor, and have more and longer range firepower to deal with it.

If found the Charger can't fight, and most times can't run fast enough to avoid pursuit that can drag it down.

Far worse it is expensive.  Twice the cost of say an Ostscout, which also has minimal arguments, but can walk, and jump, as far as a charger can run.  I'm more likely to get the Ost back with a report than a Charger.

[Scotty]

There are exactly two 'Mechs at the time of the Charger 1A1's heydey (that still exist) that are 2/3rds the tonnage but can still outrun it.  They are the Grand Dragon (and this one is arguable, given what the 'heydey' was), and the Star League Lancelot.  Everything else until you get down to the Phoenix Hawk or Chameleon is the same speed or slower, and the Chameleon is a dwindling Star League design, too.

[Nikas_Zekeval]

There are exactly two 'Mechs at the time of the Charger 1A1's heydey (that still exist) that are 2/3rds the tonnage but can still outrun it.  They are the Grand Dragon (and this one is arguable, given what the 'heydey' was), and the Star League Lancelot.  Everything else until you get down to the Phoenix Hawk or Chameleon is the same speed or slower, and the Chameleon is a dwindling Star League design, too.

You forgot the Scorpion.  But in any case it is arguable that something 5/8 with Jump jets can chase it down too if the terrain breaks up any.

The point is, the mission is to get into enemy territory, scout his forces, and return, alive, with that information.  And if spotted, well bringing the Charger down is more an exercise in pacing and patience than risk.

[Liam's Ghost]

You forgot the Scorpion.  But in any case it is arguable that something 5/8 with Jump jets can chase it down too if the terrain breaks up any.

The point is, the mission is to get into enemy territory, scout his forces, and return, alive, with that information.  And if spotted, well bringing the Charger down is more an exercise in pacing and patience than risk.

With that in mind, the Charger seems best suited to short range reconnaissance. Given enough time, lighter mechs can simply wear it down, so presumably you'd want it to range out no more than a kilometer or two beyond your main line. Just so when it encounters a combat situation it can't handle (and there are so many of those) its armor will hold out long enough to get back to friendly support.

[mitchberthelson]

With that in mind, the Charger seems best suited to short range reconnaissance. Given enough time, lighter mechs can simply wear it down, so presumably you'd want it to range out no more than a kilometer or two beyond your main line. Just so when it encounters a combat situation it can't handle (and there are so many of those) its armor will hold out long enough to get back to friendly support.

An easy way to justify this would be to just replace one Small Laser or a half ton of armor with a Remote Sensor Dispenser and reattach a left hand. It has the TEK Battlecom communications system in its TRO entry (hilariously enough), which is the same one that makes the Phoenix Hawk and Wolverine so good (i.e. Improved Comms quirk), so you can act as an ironclad link to HQ for whatever officer you're hanging out with. You can also run back and forth dropping remote sensors, spotting for artillery fire, and acting as a courier and combat engineering machine. Replace 2 more Small Lasers with a Flamer and suddenly your combat engineering potential goes way up and you can do anti-infantry in a pinch as well.

Those two little changes make it an awesome utility member of a Command or Security lance.

[Nahuris]

It also has some fear ability --- until it's actually seen.. all anyone can say is that there is an assault mech stomping around out there.... seismic sensors can identify that it is big, and if the pilot is smart, and holds his speed back a little, it might actually work to scare off some bugs ...

Outside of that, your purpose is to slam into other assault mechs, and then play "Captain Kicker" until they fall down, and that's pretty much it.

Nahuris

[Nikas_Zekeval]

With that in mind, the Charger seems best suited to short range reconnaissance. Given enough time, lighter mechs can simply wear it down, so presumably you'd want it to range out no more than a kilometer or two beyond your main line. Just so when it encounters a combat situation it can't handle (and there are so many of those) its armor will hold out long enough to get back to friendly support.

The thing is, if your going that shallow, why not a recon overflight, a fast VTOL, or even a Boomerang?  Put the later high enough and it won't even have to be close to the front to see the other side, a trick the SR-71 used in RL.

[Scotty]

The thing is, if your going that shallow, why not a recon overflight, a fast VTOL, or even a Boomerang?  Put the later high enough and it won't even have to be close to the front to see the other side, a trick the SR-71 used in RL.

I believe I have identified the problem. :D

[Liam's Ghost]

The thing is, if your going that shallow, why not a recon overflight, a fast VTOL, or even a Boomerang?  Put the later high enough and it won't even have to be close to the front to see the other side, a trick the SR-71 used in RL.

It's not about which units can do the job better than the charger, it's about what you can do with it when you have it.

We might be here for years if we waste time listing every unit that outperforms the poor charger.

[SteelRaven]

We might be here for years if we waste time listing every unit that outperforms the poor charger.

To save time: next to everything.

Getting stuck with the 1A1 is like being stuck with a Boondoggle, your ether going to heroically define the odds or die a very comical death.

Ironically: Ive witness builds similar to the 1A1 in MWO when some players noticed the high engine cap on the Pretty Babby. While it's comical to watch a 80 ton assault chase down light mechs, it was very, very easy beast to put down.

[Nikas_Zekeval]

It's not about which units can do the job better than the charger, it's about what you can do with it when you have it.

We might be here for years if we waste time listing every unit that outperforms the poor charger.

It's more how did the design ever get through procurement.  Unless it was sold as a 'survivable'  :idiot2: deep recon machine.  Only to have less that rigorous testing before the SLDF found out what a White Elephant it bought?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I suspect bribery and/or nepotism.

[Liam's Ghost]

I still maintain that a couple of Star League engineers got together, got drunk, and said "Dude, we gotta try this".

[SteelRaven]

Sells pitch: We have a Assault mech that can go 86 KPH!

TH Politicians: Take our space dollars!

SLDF: ...

[UnLimiTeD]

So, would it's utility increase if you replace all the small lasers with spikes?  ^-^

[Don Lunardi]

Sells pitch: We have a Assault mech that can go 86 KPH!

TH Politicians: Take our space dollars!

SLDF: ...

From the people who brought you the Magi...

[Black_Knyght]

It's more how did the design ever get through procurement.  Unless it was sold as a 'survivable'  :idiot2: deep recon machine.  Only to have less that rigorous testing before the SLDF found out what a White Elephant it bought?

Kind of like Lockheed's F-35 fighter jet?

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a17506/lockheed-f-35-plane-profit-121812/

[Nikas_Zekeval]

Kind of like Lockheed's F-35 fighter jet?

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a17506/lockheed-f-35-plane-profit-121812/

The F-35 is development hell, but it started from an understandable move to replace the F-16/F-18, and later the AV-8B with an updated stealth fighter-bomber, similar to how the F-22 is replacing the F-15.  The understandable need/desire was a cheaper than Raptor aircraft to fill out the Airforce's numbers, along with getting the Navy and Marines into Stealth.

[Black_Knyght]

Yeah, the NEED for it was certainly valid, but what we've ended up with was like the original Charger - a Lemon.

It costs WAY more than it was supposed, doesn't work for the mission it was designed to perform, and can be easily out-performed by existing aircraft, both friendly and hostile.

How did the design ever get through procurement? Definitely bribery and pay-offs!

[Nikas_Zekeval]

Yeah, the NEED for it was certainly valid, but what we've ended up with was like the original Charger - a Lemon.

It costs WAY more than it was supposed, doesn't work for the mission it was designed to perform, and can be easily out-performed by existing aircraft, both friendly and hostile.

How did the design ever get through procurement? Definitely bribery and pay-offs!

Don't need malice, just stubbornness.  A sunk cost fallacy.  "We spent so much money on this project we can't waste it by pulling the plug now!"  IOW like any gambler the program spent so much money they can't bring themselves to step away from the table till 'they won it back'.

The Charger is more like the Spruce Goose.  A complicated and inefficient answer to a problem that was more easily and quickly solved by conventional means.

[Sabelkatten]

Don't need malice, just stubbornness.  A sunk cost fallacy.  "We spent so much money on this project we can't waste it by pulling the plug now!"  IOW like any gambler the program spent so much money they can't bring themselves to step away from the table till 'they won it back'.

The Charger is more like the Spruce Goose.  A complicated and inefficient answer to a problem that was more easily and quickly solved by conventional means.

Arguably the Spruce Goose was just a few years late. If it had been available in, say, '42 it could have been a game changer. "Submarines? we'll just fly our armor corps across the Atlantic in a day!".

There are a lot more real-life examples. Locally a railroad get pressed (political trade deal) into buying new ore cars not tested for local conditions. They ended up having too high axle pressure, wrong loading/unloading system, and not being able to handle the local climate. Had to be rebuilt completely.

Very similar to the Charger <> Charger SB in a way. :)

[iamfanboy]

Blah, blah, blah, Alpha Strike this Alpha Strike that...

...Okay, the discount on units which can only shoot in Short range is an absurd idea. I've abused this to its limit with the Fire Moth H (A unit with a 26" movement that can deal 5 Short, yet is somehow under 15 points?), but the basic Charger shows the ridiculousness of it.

The basic -1A1 costs 18 points, yet has A5/S6. A 300-point list could fit SIXTEEN of them on the battlefield, and while they have no poke beyond Short range, that's not what they'd use anyway - it'd be 4-point melee hits all the way, or 5-point charges. With no need to worry about shooting, they'd take Sprint actions to get across the battlefield and simply swarm over the opposition. The other horrifying part of it is that they're all Scouts, meaning they have easy access to the Maneuvering Ace SPA if they're in a Recon formation - 8 of them being able to ignore woods/jungle?

My usual go-to "Is this balanced?" list is an equal PV-worth of MAD-3Ds, which would be 8 of them, 2 of which could be upgraded in Skill - or 7, all of which would be upgraded. Once the Chargers got in there the MADs would be slaughtered - even allowing three rounds of shooting before the melee started the MADs would have downed 3-5 of the Chargers and still be heavily outnumbered by units that are as tough and deal more damage than they do. Charges, in particular, could easily destroy a single MAD in a round if three Chargers connect.

I have this sudden, hilarious image of a pair of Chargers playing "Goliath-tipping."


So, yeah. Most of the Charger variants are pretty good, but if you want to break the game, try for an Ork WAAAGH! list.

[Liam's Ghost]

Now I'm wondering how well Chargers would work if employed en-mass in regular battletech. Maybe dust off the tactics of Mercer Ravannion, except using surplus Chargers.

Their pricetag would make it seem like a horrible idea, but if they've already been built and you're stuck with them anyway...

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I'd let you do it as long as I was allowed to deploy vibromines.

[iamfanboy]

I'd let you do it as long as I was allowed to deploy vibromines.

Well, he'd lose the legs off the first Charger; would the next fifteen be allowed to use it as a bridge over the minefield?

Its 2.0 BV is 981. What's the usual size for a BV 2.0 game, and how many could you cram into a list?

Because my usual game size is 500 points which is usually comfortable for a company-sized battle I ran the numbers and it's twenty-seven Chargers, with enough of a point leftover to upgrade the skill on 3 - or possibly drop to a mere 21 and take two dual-ARTAIS Longbows. I'm not sure HOW my usual lists would deal with a barbarian horde charge like that. Even strafing isn't a sure thing, being that models under the flight path count as being Short range, and if it's one range Chargers can shoot at...

Quantity has a quality all its own.

To put the melee value in perspective, the Mjolnir variant with TSM costs just as much as the Charger, while dealing one LESS point of damage in melee. Yes, at 2" versus 1", and with a speed of 14" with TSM instead of 10", but it also loses 2 Armor and 4 Structure to do so- while the Mjolnir dies to two 3-point hits (the metric for durability), the Charger takes FOUR to destroy, and three to take it into Forced Withdrawal range.

This is something that I now do want to test out. And do one of those time-lapse videos shot from above the table. With Yakety Sax playing in the background.

[Don Lunardi]

Its 2.0 BV is 981. What's the usual size for a BV 2.0 game, and how many could you cram into a list?

Because my usual game size is 500 points which is usually comfortable for a company-sized battle I ran the numbers and it's twenty-seven Chargers, with enough of a point leftover to upgrade the skill on 3 - or possibly drop to a mere 21 and take two dual-ARTAIS Longbows. I'm not sure HOW my usual lists would deal with a barbarian horde charge like that. Even strafing isn't a sure thing, being that models under the flight path count as being Short range, and if it's one range Chargers can shoot at...

Quantity has a quality all its own.

To be fair, this is generally why a lot of other game systems which handle larger formations on the board tend to include a limitation on how much you can make of a certain choice, outside of certain extreme lists meant to highlight some particular unit, so as to avoid such silliness.

[Nahuris]

Blah, blah, blah, Alpha Strike this Alpha Strike that...

...Okay, the discount on units which can only shoot in Short range is an absurd idea. I've abused this to its limit with the Fire Moth H (A unit with a 26" movement that can deal 5 Short, yet is somehow under 15 points?), but the basic Charger shows the ridiculousness of it.

The basic -1A1 costs 18 points, yet has A5/S6. A 300-point list could fit SIXTEEN of them on the battlefield, and while they have no poke beyond Short range, that's not what they'd use anyway - it'd be 4-point melee hits all the way, or 5-point charges. With no need to worry about shooting, they'd take Sprint actions to get across the battlefield and simply swarm over the opposition. The other horrifying part of it is that they're all Scouts, meaning they have easy access to the Maneuvering Ace SPA if they're in a Recon formation - 8 of them being able to ignore woods/jungle?

My usual go-to "Is this balanced?" list is an equal PV-worth of MAD-3Ds, which would be 8 of them, 2 of which could be upgraded in Skill - or 7, all of which would be upgraded. Once the Chargers got in there the MADs would be slaughtered - even allowing three rounds of shooting before the melee started the MADs would have downed 3-5 of the Chargers and still be heavily outnumbered by units that are as tough and deal more damage than they do. Charges, in particular, could easily destroy a single MAD in a round if three Chargers connect.

I have this sudden, hilarious image of a pair of Chargers playing "Goliath-tipping."


So, yeah. Most of the Charger variants are pretty good, but if you want to break the game, try for an Ork WAAAGH! list.

As in my example, queue up the Benny Hill music, and watch your opponent suffer from an aneurysm.
The Charger was built entirely around it's name .... it's sole goal is to turn every battle into a mosh pit....LOL

Nahuris