Author Topic: MotW repost: Balius  (Read 26121 times)

Paul

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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #30 on: 14 May 2011, 19:03:55 »
Well, 2 things to keep in mind:

In-universe, things aren't as easy for the engineers as they are for us.
Secondly, if you do too many shiny "perfect" designs, to reduce or kill another dynamic: that of an in-universe urge to chase a better mousetrap. After all, why build anything that's not a Hellstar? Why ever build anything else?

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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #31 on: 14 May 2011, 19:48:52 »
Well, 2 things to keep in mind:

In-universe, things aren't as easy for the engineers as they are for us.
Secondly, if you do too many shiny "perfect" designs, to reduce or kill another dynamic: that of an in-universe urge to chase a better mousetrap. After all, why build anything that's not a Hellstar? Why ever build anything else?

The thign is I'm not saying making it a perfect optimized design, but rather start out with a really nice optimized design that represents the goals and then throw a dose of "real life" at it.  frex, the Panther 10K as intended was a damn nice design but unfortunately the Combine's shortage of d-sinks at the time, resulted in the actual model being kind of pathetic. 

Or more to my point.  Let's take the Hellstar and assume the stats in the TRO are the specs the Warriors gave to the Scientist caste.  Now let's look at the art and realize just how narrow the mech is and how little volume is left in the arms after you consider the bulk ofthe ER PPC.  That suggests to me that the majority of the 15 d-sinks that are not integeral to the engine are packed ubertight within that torso.  Considering that and then considering the Design Quirks from Strat ops, that suggests to me that the mech may suffer from "Cooling System Flaws" and either "Cramped Cockpit" or "Difficult Ejection" since the head seems to be an extension of the torso.  If we assume "Difficult Ejection" is because the cockpit is so tiny, then we can also assume that because the standard life support system has so little volume to contend with that the mech qualifies for "Improved Life Support" and then we can assume that while the cooling system is less than stellar, the sensor designers did a great job and the mech qualifies for "Improved Sensors."  The end result is a mech that's still mostly( but not totally) optimized but has some character as well. 

I'd like to see quirks canonically assigned like that in the TRO's like FASA used to due with the later TRO-equivalents in the Crimson Skies line.

-Jackmc


Paul

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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #32 on: 14 May 2011, 19:54:37 »
I'd like to see quirks canonically assigned like that in the TRO's like FASA used to due with the later TRO-equivalents in the Crimson Skies line.

Gotcha. I see what you mean now. Good point.

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Dread Moores

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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #33 on: 14 May 2011, 22:44:05 »
You know, that's actually a pretty good idea. With the TRO format changing a bit to a smaller size and more regular release, maybe that's a section that could be added in. "Official" recommended quirks?

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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #34 on: 15 May 2011, 17:00:24 »
As one of those responsible, I thought it might be entertaining to react.
(Probably not entertaining to me... ;) )
Paul, let me say a huge thanks for taking the time to explain how you intended this to be used. Particularly the part about going prone is interesting me and something I didn't even think of. Any chance you can poke the other writers to stop by here every once in a while to give these kinds of insights into each week's MotW?
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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #35 on: 15 May 2011, 17:52:48 »
Prone and quads is good. It makes Thunder Stallions interesting.

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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #36 on: 22 June 2012, 12:12:57 »
Prone and quads is good. It makes Thunder Stallions interesting.

You know....I never thought of Quads going prone...I thought they had the same restrictions doing
that as bipedal 'mechs...
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Paul

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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #37 on: 22 June 2012, 12:25:41 »
You know....I never thought of Quads going prone...I thought they had the same restrictions doing
that as bipedal 'mechs...

They kinda do; you need to spend 1 MP to go down, and you need to spend 2MP to get back up.
What's awesome about them though is that you don't suffer that +2 penalty for firing when prone in a quad, AND you don't need a PSR to get back on your feet; you just spend the 2 MP and pick a facing, and you're done.

Hence the primary reason the Balius is 6/9; see also the tactics suggestions I mention prior.

But yeah, a thunderstallion prone on a hill in woods is a surprisingly annoying problem... My wife loves using them.

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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #38 on: 22 June 2012, 12:40:28 »
You know....I never thought of Quads going prone...I thought they had the same restrictions doing
that as bipedal 'mechs...

Between bipeds being more popular than quads, most people thus rarely having a reason to go prone on purpose, and the rule itself kind of tucked away in a one-sentence subpoint of "Firing When Down", it is somewhat easy to miss. And of course you still spend MP dropping prone and getting back up, so to some extent the defense bonus at range comes at the cost of part of your TMM for that turn at least.

Still, it's one of the few real benefits of using a quad, and it's also one that goes away once you lose the first hip actuator (with or without the leg), so there's definitely some incentive to use it while it lasts.

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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #39 on: 22 June 2012, 15:18:38 »
Nice article and counter-fire from Paul nice too see the players reaction to a design and the designers intention for the design

Haven't really used or faced the design much but enjoyed reading about it
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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #40 on: 22 June 2012, 15:29:32 »
They kinda do; you need to spend 1 MP to go down, and you need to spend 2MP to get back up.
What's awesome about them though is that you don't suffer that +2 penalty for firing when prone in a quad, AND you don't need a PSR to get back on your feet; you just spend the 2 MP and pick a facing, and you're done.

Hence the primary reason the Balius is 6/9; see also the tactics suggestions I mention prior.

But yeah, a thunderstallion prone on a hill in woods is a surprisingly annoying problem... My wife loves using them.

Paul
I have to say that I see quads in a new light and have made a serious tactical shift when using them.  Thanks!

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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #41 on: 22 June 2012, 16:00:24 »
But yeah, a thunderstallion prone on a hill in woods is a surprisingly annoying problem... My wife loves using them.

That's a problem I can solve with fire.

I have to say that I see quads in a new light and have made a serious tactical shift when using them.  Thanks!

Gives me an idea for using a Snow Fox in new and annoying ways, at least.

Paul

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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #42 on: 22 June 2012, 18:59:23 »
I have to say that I see quads in a new light and have made a serious tactical shift when using them.  Thanks!

You got it. If you're not going prone every turn in your quad then you're:
a. Using Jumpjets that turn
b. Too slow
c. Doing it wrong.

;)

Note the other big one on going prone is the ability to pick any direction when you're getting back up. This is an excellent way to frustrate an opponent that closed right on top of you. Just make sure to pick a hex to go prone in that has 2-3 suitable exit paths next turn, either a straight shot at 7 hexes, or 5 hexes and a Light Woods. (Or 3 and heavy) If you're not making 3's and 4's every turn, you're not doing it right.
There's also no shame in getting up, doing 3-4 hexes in to a light woods, and then going prone again. Yeah, you're at +3 again.

Also note the Balius is primed for dueling; obviously a lot of that mileage evaporates when fighting large formations. The advantage is in dogfighting.
When range dueling, sidestepping becomes almost as important as going prone when keeping the range open.

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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #43 on: 22 June 2012, 19:00:58 »
So... you can actually go prone one turn in firing position, and then stand up facing the entirely opposite direction for a net difference of zero MP and the addition of a defensive bonus when prone?

That's awesome.
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Paul

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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #44 on: 22 June 2012, 19:04:40 »
So... you can actually go prone one turn in firing position, and then stand up facing the entirely opposite direction for a net difference of zero MP and the addition of a defensive bonus when prone?

That's awesome.

Yep. You still spend the 3 MP for a full 180 degree turn, but you get the nice prone bonus for "free" inbetween.
Also, while you're foregoing your own kick, sometimes you want your enemies to kick you on the full chart, instead of the leg chart. If that happens to be more important than a kick (or, since you lost init, your opponent isn't likely to give you a kick at all) going prone can kinda work defensively.
Just realize that kick (and their firepower) gets a -2 bonus for being pointblank to a prone target, so it'd best be the last 2 turns in a duel, or it's going to be the last 2 turns that duel... ;)

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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #45 on: 22 June 2012, 23:54:42 »
Also, while you're foregoing your own kick, sometimes you want your enemies to kick you on the full chart, instead of the leg chart. If that happens to be more important than a kick (or, since you lost init, your opponent isn't likely to give you a kick at all) going prone can kinda work defensively.
Just realize that kick (and their firepower) gets a -2 bonus for being pointblank to a prone target, so it'd best be the last 2 turns in a duel, or it's going to be the last 2 turns that duel... ;)

Paul

Mmm. I'll be honest, usually I'd just as soon use the leg chart. After all, with quads, if I lose a side torso I lose the attached foreleg anyway... (That's actually one potential reason for Clan quads with their free CASE in particular to keep their explosive ammo in their legs -- it's not like any of the other locations a quad has would be so much better.)

Might be different if a leg was really close to going and the torso armor still mostly intact, though I'd still be giving my opponent a free to-hit bonus in exchange for the chance of the hit I likely will take even if I wasn't going to before going elsewhere.

Paul

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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #46 on: 23 June 2012, 00:57:09 »
Yeah, I'm with you there. But I've been able to use that "trick" once or twice. Still lost both times, but it took longer. ;)

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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #47 on: 23 June 2012, 01:05:57 »
something that just pop in my head but not sure about.  It the physical combat stage it show in solaris that quad can do mule kicks.  ( forgot w hat the damage am going to guess it is leg kick damagex2 but shouldn't you also be able to do a forward kick as well.. let call it a horse stump for the term

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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #48 on: 23 June 2012, 01:08:00 »
I'm going to take the dissenting position here, and say that the Balius isn't "teh suck" as many might think. The Primary configuration, and alternate configurations Bravo and Charlie, are damned useful in a heavy mecha-cavalry formation. The aforementioned configs have got the speed, level of armor protection, and weapon loadouts to fill that role remarkably well. The quad chassis also offers a few perks with the design.

I don't know about the games of others, but in our gaming the cavalry is about high mobility warfare. Stay on the move, strike fast, and hit hard. The problems with the Balius begin when one tries to play it as a typical line heavy. It's not a design that lends itself to heavy maneuver combat very well. It's all about haulin' ass, not getting glassed.

I have a huge appreciation for fast heavies like the Balius. When things go sour, and it suddenly comes time to make like horse shit and hit the trail (no pun intended), it's less of a headache to get them off of the mapsheets than with the typical line 4/6 (and to a lesser extent, 5/8) heavy units. The faster you complete your tactical withdraw (aka: retreat after a major SNAFU), the fewer rear guard units you lose.

Finally, considering the role we use it in, the look of the design is very appropriate. I know that pretty is as pretty does, but the thing just looks damned cool. This is probably the closest a 31st Century cav pilot is going to get to the horse cavalry of the past. Spiritual successors and all that.

Anyway, that's just my take on the Balius. I like the design. It's worked well for my group.

And as always, just my two cents worth.   

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Paul

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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #49 on: 23 June 2012, 01:16:29 »
something that just pop in my head but not sure about.  It the physical combat stage it show in solaris that quad can do mule kicks.  ( forgot w hat the damage am going to guess it is leg kick damagex2 but shouldn't you also be able to do a forward kick as well.. let call it a horse stump for the term

Not sure where the mule kick rules went, but TW lets you kick in your rear arc at a +1 penalty, but normal kick damage. So, only 2 hexes are "safe" around a standing quad.

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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #50 on: 23 June 2012, 02:01:45 »
Not sure where the mule kick rules went, but TW lets you kick in your rear arc at a +1 penalty, but normal kick damage. So, only 2 hexes are "safe" around a standing quad.

Paul

Of course, in those two hexes you're extremely safe because it can't do anything about you in there at all. No torso to twist, no arms to punch with...attacks from the side are the bane of even quads with actual rear-mounted weapons.

Which of course strongly implies that if your quad ever ends up in physical attack range of anything, you're Doing It Wrong. ;) The wide-open side arcs mean you really want to keep your distance from your enemies to avoid getting outflanked. (Turrets help once you get into TacOps, but that doesn't exactly apply to the Balius unless perhaps in custom configurations if they can be pod-mounted in the first place -- I may have to get over onto the rules board and check/ask because simply applying the "if it doesn't say it can't be podded, it can" default could get a bit weird here.)

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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #51 on: 23 June 2012, 05:50:33 »
This is just my opinion but I doubt that default applies here.  Keep in mind that of the advanced turrets, two are using basically the same construction rules as standard vehicular turrets, which can't be pod mounted.

A formal answer would probably settle it for the rules lawyers, though.

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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #52 on: 23 June 2012, 08:27:06 »
I like the 'Mech despite its weakness.  For a quad, it having rear mount weapon helps it from getting in trouble.  Makes me wonder what Inner Sphere Quad OmniMech what would be like.

Like this? http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,20393.0.html
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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #53 on: 23 June 2012, 08:32:02 »
This is just my opinion but I doubt that default applies here.  Keep in mind that of the advanced turrets, two are using basically the same construction rules as standard vehicular turrets, which can't be pod mounted.

A formal answer would probably settle it for the rules lawyers, though.

*nod* I've put the question up on the TacOps board. In the meantime I'm inclined to go with the most restrictive interpretation (well, other than "oops, those turrets all can't be used on Omnis at all") and consider any and all applicable turrets and turret mechanisms fixed parts of the base chassis.

Which, getting back on topic, means the Balius is kind of out of luck in that regard. ;)

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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #54 on: 23 June 2012, 12:47:35 »
As far as I read the rules battlemech turrets could be pod mounted. I did make a variant on the prime which changed the rear pulses to ER meds and mounted the large lasers in turrets, never used it though.
As a horses player I got a Ballius for character (and to balance out that I also bought a Hellstar).
I put it in a fast scout hunter/ head hunter force with a Grendel, an Uller, a Puma, and a Hellion.
The force did really well as long as I kept in mind the low overall armor and used my speed to my advantage. Frustrated the hell out of my opponent as I would strike at one side and then quickly redeploy to spread his lines thin.
In this star the Ballius acts as a backbone providing long range firepower and bullying lighter mechs that might get behind my forces. It also provides a big target to draw some of the firepower away from the light mechs. I kind of like it in this role though sometime I might try the D as a heavy skirmisher in a heavy/assault force.


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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #56 on: 23 June 2012, 15:23:13 »
Makes me wonder what Inner Sphere Quad OmniMech what would be like.
One configuration better have HGR ;)
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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #57 on: 10 August 2018, 06:17:29 »
Sorry about the necro, but reading this made me wonder if maybe a Torso mounted cockpit or Interface Cockpit would make this any better. I'll have to look into that.
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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #58 on: 10 August 2018, 07:21:22 »
I'm also curious how the ProtoMechs riding the thing would look like.  This being 65 tons, won't it be able hold 2? It be kinda funny, looking like a Cowboy like ProtoMech riding a Ballius Horse.  ;D
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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #59 on: 10 August 2018, 09:05:14 »
And this reminds me even more to take a picture of my stable of Balius.  I'm also interested by quirky mechs, and customized several and even magnetized 1 because I could.  I even added a custom LRM version because it looked so nice.

 

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