Author Topic: Design Challenge: How Broken can you build a Protomech?  (Read 2743 times)

Cannonshop

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Design Challenge: How Broken can you build a Protomech?
« on: 17 October 2024, 18:05:23 »
Limits: Only Protomechs.  That means a mass limit of 9 tons.

Objective: To build the most abusive protomech you can manage to cobble together from the rules under a 9 ton mass limit.

What do I mean by 'Abusive'?  Rules-lawyer it, any option goes as long as it's going to result in something that when you plop a five pack on the table, the rest of your gaming group threatens to kick you out for being a rules-abusing twink.

IOW design this as if you're out to really piss somebody off, get the table flipped in your face, as if you're looking for an excuse to be thrown out of the venue for almost-cheating.

i.e. use edge-cases to get an advantage, use optional rules as if they're set in stone to YOUR interpretation.

Indulge your inner (or outer) Munchkin in the most unfair way you can under 9 tons.
« Last Edit: 17 October 2024, 18:07:30 by Cannonshop »
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Hellraiser

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Re: Design Challenge: How Broken can you build a Protomech?
« Reply #1 on: 17 October 2024, 19:33:35 »
I'm honestly not sure how to Improve on the Roc, Minotaur, & Delphyne

Those ARE my inner munchkin.
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DevianID

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Re: Design Challenge: How Broken can you build a Protomech?
« Reply #2 on: 05 November 2024, 02:40:22 »
So because engine scaling is broken on protomechs, larger protomechs can be just as fast.  This means you can make a 9 ton proto that moves 11/17, and give it 30 points of armor and the 2 machine guns of the excellent Siren.  This 9 ton super siren is faster and much harder to destroy, and it only costs about 2x what the 3 ton siren costs, but the extra armor and speed means its way more then 2x annoying. 

If you downgrade to 10/15 speed, the 9 ton super siren can bring more armor and double the machine guns, up to 4.  This 4 mgun, 38 armor, 10/15 super siren only costs 234 BV, and is what I would use if I needed to shoot tanks and mechs to pieces on the cheap.

In our games, what makes protos broken is their speed and ability to move in packs.  Having 5 or 10 11/17 or 10/15 things zoom around a fast mech that hasnt moved in activation yet means you can trap it so it has to stay still, as you cant move past a protomech.  The machine guns are great at wrecking infantry in buildings/cover, so they are the #1 gun for protos IMHO.  And if you play objective games, a pack of 5 different fast 11/17 9 ton protos with 30 armor will just run away with the objective score.

idea weenie

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Re: Design Challenge: How Broken can you build a Protomech?
« Reply #3 on: 09 November 2024, 16:35:37 »
In our games, what makes protos broken is their speed and ability to move in packs.  Having 5 or 10 11/17 or 10/15 things zoom around a fast mech that hasnt moved in activation yet means you can trap it so it has to stay still, as you cant move past a protomech.  The machine guns are great at wrecking infantry in buildings/cover, so they are the #1 gun for protos IMHO.  And if you play objective games, a pack of 5 different fast 11/17 9 ton protos with 30 armor will just run away with the objective score.

This is a good reason to put Jump Jets on every Meh you can.

As an aside, how would B-Pods or M-Pods work vs Protomechs?

DevianID

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Re: Design Challenge: How Broken can you build a Protomech?
« Reply #4 on: 10 November 2024, 03:08:06 »
I love Mpods, and hate bpods. Mostly because you can't manually trigger bpods, so they are just stuck on you.  Mpods you can fire as desired.

The mpod would be ok versus protos, but the main problem of protos is getting surrounded and unable to move.  It's not the protos that kill you, its the clan vehicles or assault mechs, shooting you with no movement evasion.  So while the mpod may help get a revenge kill on the squad trapping you, it won't save you, just make it harder for the protos to trap the next person.

Charistoph

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Re: Design Challenge: How Broken can you build a Protomech?
« Reply #5 on: 10 November 2024, 10:42:46 »
B-Pods are literally useless against Protomechs for two reasons.  First is that Protomechs cannot do Leg or Swarm Attacks (that would be fun if they could do Leg Attacks but that's a different topic).  Second, "B-Pods have no affect on any other type of unit." - Total Warfare pg 130, last sentence of paragraph 5 of Anti-Battle Armor Pods (B-Pods).
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NUT-BUSTING TORQUE

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Re: Design Challenge: How Broken can you build a Protomech?
« Reply #6 on: 05 December 2024, 19:23:37 »
Old thread I know, but I looked through my old folder of designs and found one you might be interested in. I think I made this around 2012-2014 with the release of Wars of Reaving as apart of some other thread, I can't recall at all.
Code: [Select]
Basilisk 3 Society Biped Heavy Protomech
Mass: 7 Tons
Chassis: Bipedal Standard
Power Plant: 35 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 3 kph
Maximum Speed: 5 kph
Jump Jets: Standard Jump Jets
    Jump Jet Capacity: 90 meters
Armor: Standard Proto armor
Armament:
Manufacturer: Complex H-6 CCC Contraband
Primary Factory: Homer, Clan Cloud Cobra Complex H-6
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

Type: Basilisk 3 Society Biped Standard Jump Jets
Technology Base: Clan (Tech Manual)
Tonnage: 7
Battle Value: 289
 
Equipment:                        Mass
Internal Structure:                700 KG
Engine:               35           875 KG
     Walking MP:      3
     Running MP:      5
     Jumping MP:      3
Heat Sinks:           0             0 KG 
Cockpit:                          500 KG 
Armor Factor:         30          1500 KG 
                Internal       Armor
                Structure      Value
   Head            2             2 
   Torso           7             10 
   R/L Arm       2/2             4/4
   Legs            4             7 
   Main Gun        1             3 


All Weapons and Ammo    Location    Mass(KG)
LRM 11                      MG          2200   
Protomech Magnetic Clamps    T           500
10 Rounds LRM 11 Ammo (110 missiles)    T     917

8KG left over for beer and snacks.

Defensive BV:
armor factor: 30 x 2.5= 75
Internals: 18 x 1.5= 27
Gyro: 0
MagClamp: 1

103 x (0.1 + 1.2) = DBR of 133.9

Offensive BV:
LRM 11: 139
Ammo: 917/1000= 0.917 x 18= 16.5
Speed factor of 1

155.5 x 1= OBR of 155.5

Total BV of 289

"Let's continue the idea with an *actual* Society protomech- or sorta Society protomech- the Basilisk biped. Remember that spiel about Mag clamps and weight, and 7 tons and all? If we do a 7 ton proto a 40 ton omni can carry one no problem- and oh look the Society uses Vipers and Ice Ferrets above a roll of 11, where everything is an omni! How about that!

The Society has bipedal Basilisks for their use, but let's crank up the cheese since we're using mag clamps and don't worry about speed except for tactical situations. The weight tables for proto engines basically *end* below the 40 point fusion mark, requiring you to multiply the rate of the engine by 25 KG. By using a 7 tonner at 3/5 movement, we use a 35-point engine but because of that rule, save 125KG out of the gate instead of having to pay 1 full ton for it. We also resist the urge to go down further to 2/3/2- saving 450KG just isn't worth it in my opinion but your mileage may vary.

We keep jump jets- 300kg is nothing for the benefit- and start slapping armor on this bastard to meet the base targets. With it able to tank a stray gauss hit to the chest and an AC/20 unable to core one with an arm hit, it'll stick around for quite some time to provide some real cheese.

Gaming the cluster table, we equip an LRM 11 and a whole 10 rounds of fire. Forget any other gun, save the leftover 8KG for snacks and after-combat treats. I haven't done the calculations yet, but I know for a fact that this proto now has a BV to LRM ratio similar to the Bane 3- you know, the one that can throw over 100 LRMs a turn?- but far cheaper in bulk and more accessible and mobile. If your RAT gives you a Viper (which is dead average for a roll) you carry one at 8/12; go drop him in a corner somewhere and let him go wild. With 3/5/3 he can still move to better spots, and with his armor he's able to take some hits. This isn't the greatest proto i've made, but for what he is I don't see much of a way to improve him- except NOT using it on it's factory world of Homer, where the gravity is 1.4g and it goes 2/3/2."
« Last Edit: 05 December 2024, 19:33:52 by NUT-BUSTING TORQUE »

CloaknDagger

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Re: Design Challenge: How Broken can you build a Protomech?
« Reply #7 on: 12 January 2025, 22:39:49 »
To put something forward that doesn't fly and isn't a an Ultraheavy:

Code: [Select]
Drone Protomek 4t
Mass: 4 tons
Power Plant: 12 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 32.4 kph
Maximum Speed: 54 kph
Jump Jets:
     Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Standard ProtoMech
Armament:
     2 BA Medium Recoilless Rifle
     1 BA Medium Laser
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-X-D
Cost: 664,352 C-bills

Type: Drone (Quad)
Technology Base: Clan (Advanced)
Tonnage: 4
Battle Value: 132

Equipment                                         Mass (kg)
Internal Structure                                  400
Engine                        12                    300
    Walking MP: 3
    Running MP: 5
    Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks:                   2                     500
Cockpit:                                            500
Armor Factor (Standard ProtoMech):22                  1,100

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Head                    1         4     
     Torso                   4         8     
     Legs                    5         10   
     Main Gun                -         -     

Weapons
and Ammo                      Location        Mass
BA Medium Recoilless Rifle Ammo (??)      BD            200
BA Medium Laser                   T             500
2 BA Medium Recoilless Rifle             T             500

Code: [Select]
Drone Protomek 3t
Mass: 3 tons
Power Plant: 9 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 32.4 kph
Maximum Speed: 54 kph
Jump Jets:
     Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Standard ProtoMech
Armament:
     3 Light Machine Gun
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-X-D
Cost: 637,183.75 C-bills

Type: Drone (Quad)
Technology Base: Clan (Advanced)
Tonnage: 3
Battle Value: 86

Equipment                                         Mass (kg)
Internal Structure                                  300
Engine                        9                     225
    Walking MP: 3
    Running MP: 5
    Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks:                   0                       0
Cockpit:                                            500
Armor Factor (Standard ProtoMech):17                    850

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Head                    1         3     
     Torso                   3         6     
     Legs                    4         8     
     Main Gun                -         -     

Weapons
and Ammo                      Location        Mass
BA Camo System                  BD            200
BA Recoilless Rifle Ammo (??)      BD            175
3 BA Recoilless Rifle             T             750

As far as I know these are both rules legal and work. The second one even has working visual camouflage like BA.

Ignore that they're drones, that's for a game I'm playing where I don't see any reason Automata rules shouldn't apply to Protomechs the same as BA.

Just for fun, here's one that IS an Ultraheavy, but just barely since it's only 10 tons for the extra slots:

Code: [Select]
Drone Protomek 10t
Mass: 10 tons
Power Plant: 30 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 32.4 kph
Maximum Speed: 54 kph
Jump Jets:
     Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Standard ProtoMech
Armament:
     7 BA LBX-AC
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-X-D
Cost: 1,121,587.5 C-bills

Type: Drone (Quad)
Technology Base: Clan (Advanced)
Tonnage: 10
Battle Value: 274

Equipment                                         Mass (kg)
Internal Structure                                1,000
Engine                        30                    750
    Walking MP: 3
    Running MP: 5
    Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks:                   0                       0
Cockpit:                                            750
Armor Factor (Standard ProtoMech):57                  2,850

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Head                    3         7     
     Torso                   10        20   
     Legs                    12        24   
     Main Gun                2         6     

Weapons
and Ammo                 Location        Mass
BA LBX-AC Ammo (??)      BD           1150
5 BA LBX-AC              T            2500
2 BA LBX-AC              MG           1000

Each of these is equivalent to an LBX20 and I think they have plenty of ammo.

Code: [Select]
Drone Protomek 9t
Mass: 9 tons
Power Plant: 36 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 43.2 kph
Maximum Speed: 64.8 kph
Jump Jets:
     Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Standard ProtoMech
Armament:
     1 BA Support PPC
     4 BA Medium Laser
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-X-D
Cost: 812,813 C-bills

Type: Drone (Quad)
Technology Base: Clan (Advanced)
Tonnage: 9
Battle Value: 331

Equipment                                         Mass (kg)
Internal Structure                                  900
Engine                        36                    900
    Walking MP: 4
    Running MP: 6
    Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks:                   9                   2,250
Cockpit:                                            500
Armor Factor (Standard ProtoMech):44                  2,200

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Head                    2         6     
     Torso                   9         18   
     Legs                    9         17   
     Main Gun                1         3     

Weapons
and Ammo              Location        Mass
3 BA Medium Laser        T            1500
BA Support PPC           T             250
BA Medium Laser           MG            500

Lastly we have a 9t Protomech with 4 Medium Lasers and a Support PPC, all with unlimited ammo because of Protomech fusion engines. It even comes with a small speed boost.
« Last Edit: 12 January 2025, 23:00:14 by CloaknDagger »

DevianID

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Re: Design Challenge: How Broken can you build a Protomech?
« Reply #8 on: 14 January 2025, 02:08:14 »
Is that using the BA weapons as munchkin weapons from the ghosts of obeedah?  I agree due to the vastly reduced weight and heat every unit designed with ghosts of obeedah weapons will always be superior to any unit not abusing half weight 0 heat weapons for the ultimate broken proto.

Also, 7 BA LBX is an LBx28, so its 40% better then an lbx20!

CloaknDagger

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Re: Design Challenge: How Broken can you build a Protomech?
« Reply #9 on: 14 January 2025, 02:16:11 »
Is that using the BA weapons as munchkin weapons from the ghosts of obeedah?  I agree due to the vastly reduced weight and heat every unit designed with ghosts of obeedah weapons will always be superior to any unit not abusing half weight 0 heat weapons for the ultimate broken proto.

Also, 7 BA LBX is an LBx28, so its 40% better then an lbx20!

Precisely!

Though in the case of the 3 and 4 ton protos, you can actually use the weapons without them breaking any time you take damage. I especially like that and the 3 ton proto because there's actually a reason to use the light protos now.

DevianID

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Re: Design Challenge: How Broken can you build a Protomech?
« Reply #10 on: 14 January 2025, 04:12:16 »
Precisely!

Though in the case of the 3 and 4 ton protos, you can actually use the weapons without them breaking any time you take damage. I especially like that and the 3 ton proto because there's actually a reason to use the light protos now.
Isnt it still true that a 9 ton proto can literally do everything a 3/4 ton proto can, just with weight to spare?  Ghosts doesnt change that right?

CloaknDagger

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Re: Design Challenge: How Broken can you build a Protomech?
« Reply #11 on: 14 January 2025, 05:38:40 »
Isnt it still true that a 9 ton proto can literally do everything a 3/4 ton proto can, just with weight to spare?  Ghosts doesnt change that right?

No, BA Camouflage and electronics only work on units up to 3 tons. So the 3 tonner is actually useful now.

That, and it weighs 1/3rd of the 9 tonner. Which is useful since I made the design for a grand strategy game.

Crow

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Re: Design Challenge: How Broken can you build a Protomech?
« Reply #12 on: 24 January 2025, 00:38:15 »
I once cooked up Erinyes that moved 7/11/0, had no weapons, but had 10 points of EDP armor. Ultra cheap leg hump of DOOM!  :evil:
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NUT-BUSTING TORQUE

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Re: Design Challenge: How Broken can you build a Protomech?
« Reply #13 on: 27 January 2025, 15:22:32 »
Isnt it still true that a 9 ton proto can literally do everything a 3/4 ton proto can, just with weight to spare?  Ghosts doesnt change that right?
Effectively yes; Protos kind of fight over table scraps at the very edge of the engine curve, made worse by the gun weights not really changing. If anything, the 2 3 and 4 ton protos might actually NEED to get BA weapons just to even be useful...

No, BA Camouflage and electronics only work on units up to 3 tons. So the 3 tonner is actually useful now.

That, and it weighs 1/3rd of the 9 tonner. Which is useful since I made the design for a grand strategy game.
... except for the Siren which is one of the best protos in the game  :evil:
I like the idea of tossing a camo system onto a 3 tonner, but it's only gonna be useful if your 3 tonner doesn't have to move fast.

CloaknDagger

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Re: Design Challenge: How Broken can you build a Protomech?
« Reply #14 on: 27 January 2025, 17:31:58 »
I like the idea of tossing a camo system onto a 3 tonner, but it's only gonna be useful if your 3 tonner doesn't have to move fast.

If you want a fast 3 tonner, you have to use a Small Support Vehicle or Combat Vehicle. You can get hilariously fast. And with hovercraft and wheeled units in particular, they can even move through light woods.

The advantage of Protomechs isn't speed, it's durability.

Charistoph

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Re: Design Challenge: How Broken can you build a Protomech?
« Reply #15 on: 28 January 2025, 00:43:57 »
The advantage of Protomechs isn't speed, it's durability.

Protomechs move like a 'Mech, so their speed over hilly terrain is really quite good.

And a 3 ton Proto is generally not going to be very durable.  Not that a Vehicle of that mass would be, either.
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CloaknDagger

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Re: Design Challenge: How Broken can you build a Protomech?
« Reply #16 on: 28 January 2025, 02:01:20 »
Protomechs move like a 'Mech, so their speed over hilly terrain is really quite good.

And a 3 ton Proto is generally not going to be very durable.  Not that a Vehicle of that mass would be, either.

They absolutely are durable for 3 ton units. The only way to get tougher units at that weight is covering a Support Vehicle with modular armor, and even then the Protomech armor is far more weight efficient and the Protomech has the dodge roll advantage.

Charistoph

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Re: Design Challenge: How Broken can you build a Protomech?
« Reply #17 on: 28 January 2025, 10:49:24 »
They absolutely are durable for 3 ton units. The only way to get tougher units at that weight is covering a Support Vehicle with modular armor, and even then the Protomech armor is far more weight efficient and the Protomech has the dodge roll advantage.

Just saying anything at 3 tons isn't going to stand up to much.  At least a Vehicle has Armor options while the Protomech has only one.

The Near Miss location isn't very available, either.  Only a 1/9 chance of being "hit".
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Quote from: Megavolt
They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.

Charistoph's Painted Products of Mechanical Mayhem

CloaknDagger

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Re: Design Challenge: How Broken can you build a Protomech?
« Reply #18 on: 28 January 2025, 22:59:06 »
Just saying anything at 3 tons isn't going to stand up to much.  At least a Vehicle has Armor options while the Protomech has only one.

The Near Miss location isn't very available, either.  Only a 1/9 chance of being "hit".

That depends on how you are organizing battles. A battle limited by dropship cargo tonnage would mean three 3 tonners for every 9 tonner, which is a fight the lighter units can win.

A battle limited by money would see tons of vehicles and standard fusion engine battlemechs and industrialmechs, but one going by tonnage would see lots of battlemechs with XL engines.

A battle limited by manpower would see lots of mechs and drones.

NUT-BUSTING TORQUE

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Re: Design Challenge: How Broken can you build a Protomech?
« Reply #19 on: 01 February 2025, 10:59:09 »
Protomechs move like a 'Mech, so their speed over hilly terrain is really quite good.

And a 3 ton Proto is generally not going to be very durable.  Not that a Vehicle of that mass would be, either.

Eh, a properly armored 3 tonner can take a single 10-point hit if it's struck in the arm. My question before re-reading Ghosts of Obeedah is what cutoff is there for battle armor weapons on those 3 tonners, like can I equip battle armor claws to add to frenzy attacks and make them worthwhile (?).
The real benefit I would see, is that you have a "mech" that gains the best from all worlds- you have no PSRs and enter buildings like infantry and armor, but you have speed like a battlemech. So thinking like that... battle armor LB-X might be one of the better weapons to use. 900KG would get you two guns with 20 total rounds between them.

Daryk

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Re: Design Challenge: How Broken can you build a Protomech?
« Reply #20 on: 01 February 2025, 11:16:50 »
For true brokenness, make it two BA Tube Artillery.. AOE damage FTW!

NUT-BUSTING TORQUE

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Re: Design Challenge: How Broken can you build a Protomech?
« Reply #21 on: 01 February 2025, 14:11:41 »
For true brokenness, make it two BA Tube Artillery.. AOE damage FTW!

OH MY GOD, YOU'RE RIGHT. And that artillery piece is a half ton! And 15kg for 2 rounds of ammo! You could make a 3 ton protomech running an artillery piece moving too fast to ever take returning fire- alone a stock, 10/15 Siren could carry one tube and at least 6 rounds of ammo.

Going back to the camo system for a moment- I'm thinking a protomech used as a stealth unit and deep raider.

Daryk

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Re: Design Challenge: How Broken can you build a Protomech?
« Reply #22 on: 01 February 2025, 14:22:12 »
The craziest thing about it is the fact it gets a bigger AOE radius than either a proper Thumper or a Sniper Artillery Cannon... ;D