Mech design decisions that make no sense

[Kit deSummersville]

So, back to 'Mech designs that make no sense. If it hasn't been said before, the Charger, or at least the decision to produce (The idea itself isn't bad, so I can see why it got to the design stage, but it should never have reached full production).

You should bring up the Shadowhawk 2D, too.

[Sir Chaos]

You should bring up the Shadowhawk 2D, too.

It´s been a while since we talked about that.

Way too long, actually.

[RoundTop]

Let's talk about the Snake 1V (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Snake)

45t, 5/8/5, 7t armor, XL engine, LB10x w/2t ammo, 3x SSRM2.

Purportedly an elemental hunter, or an IS BA hunter... it really is not great for its intended role.  The LB10x is a solid weapon no matter what, but that triple SSRM2 is poor. And then... double-heat sinks, for something that jumping and alpha striking makes... 13 heat.

As a vehicle hunter it might be decent, but it is fairly weakly armored, and again, it is wasting a bunch of tonnage on 3 SSRM2s, which isn't great when trying to counter battle armor or elementals.  You could mount a pair of SRM4s and increase the armor by 0.5t, which would let you mount infernos

LB10X platforms in light mediums are tough, but this one just isn't as fast as others, the secondary weaponry is lackluster, and its "role" is one it is not good at.

Compare against the other "elemental hunter" battlemech, the Komodo. Also 45t, also 5/8/5, also XL engine. But the Komodo mounts 10 medium lasers, TAG, ECM, 2xAMS (and 2t ammo), and 7.t armor.  So it outputs way more damage, it can spot for many things with the TAG, it can shut down hostile electronics, it can swat down elemental SRMs, and has more armor.  The snake just pales in comparison.

[Elmoth]

that is a bad mech more than one that makes no sense then, right?

[Weirdo]

It's a fairly good anti-suit warload if you're fighting as part of a team. Put an LB and SRM volley into a Point, and suddenly they're at far greater risk than they used to be, because now secondary shots from your buddies using PPCs, large lasers, even MPLs(if you're lucky) are now probably going to completely kill suits, so they're now one or two salvos away from being effectively neutralized as a fighting unit.

The main strength of battlesuits(Elementals in particular) is that the amount of firepower needed to deal with them is just a bit more than most players are willing to devote, given their actual threat level. A Snake takes that away.

[Colt Ward]

Actually . . . it can kill 1 Elemental a turn out of the point IF the LBX slug hits & you get a missile hit on the same suit- 12 points will kill a Elemental, 10 & the SSRM scatter will cripple a IS BA squad.  But yeah, I used it as a veh hunter . . . and the ability to sit in a burning fire hex places it with the Gargoyle Prime as a mech whose doctrine IS to sit in the fire.

[Hptm. Streiger]

Always thought about the Snake - that it is a Wolftrap with SRMs.... although speaking of the Wolftrap that guy is also not very capable in dealing with Wolfhounds - and speaking of Wolfhounds those are not so solid in their performance when dealing with Panthers.

But I have another - were the lore does not meet the performance. Clearly and obviously the Shrike - in every version. look at the description, based on an Onager and outclassing that Mech in all fields of combat? Wut?
The Onager is a brutal close range Mech and has the durability to use it in most cases, the HAG 30 is also a deadly weapon at range and clearly, a fair match for 2 ER Large Laser and 2 UAC5s or 2 UAC10s - and hands-down the Shrike 3 is even more absurd and prone to overheating.

I think the worst problem of the Shrike (heat) can be overcome by dropping those LRMs - and why to drop a solid HAG30 for two UAC5s is beyond me

[massey]

Let's talk about the Snake 1V (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Snake)

45t, 5/8/5, 7t armor, XL engine, LB10x w/2t ammo, 3x SSRM2.

Purportedly an elemental hunter, or an IS BA hunter... it really is not great for its intended role.  The LB10x is a solid weapon no matter what, but that triple SSRM2 is poor. And then... double-heat sinks, for something that jumping and alpha striking makes... 13 heat.

As a vehicle hunter it might be decent, but it is fairly weakly armored, and again, it is wasting a bunch of tonnage on 3 SSRM2s, which isn't great when trying to counter battle armor or elementals.  You could mount a pair of SRM4s and increase the armor by 0.5t, which would let you mount infernos

LB10X platforms in light mediums are tough, but this one just isn't as fast as others, the secondary weaponry is lackluster, and its "role" is one it is not good at.

Compare against the other "elemental hunter" battlemech, the Komodo. Also 45t, also 5/8/5, also XL engine. But the Komodo mounts 10 medium lasers, TAG, ECM, 2xAMS (and 2t ammo), and 7.t armor.  So it outputs way more damage, it can spot for many things with the TAG, it can shut down hostile electronics, it can swat down elemental SRMs, and has more armor.  The snake just pales in comparison.

At the time, the triple Streak SRM-2 could mount infernos.  SRM-2s were the only size launcher that could mount infernos.  And infernos then were lethal as all hell.

The LB-10X makes sense for fighting Elementals.  You had enemies that took 11 points of damage to kill.  You'd probably start out with a burst of cluster ammo, slapping a bunch of 1 point hits around the Elemental squad.  Then you would switch over to 10 point slugs and kill one each round.  Makes sense to me.  And the Snake is fast enough that it can stay out of range of the Elementals.  They can't even get in range of their SRMs if the Snake doesn't want them to (unlike the Komodo, which has the same range profile).

[Sir Chaos]

Actually . . . it can kill 1 Elemental a turn out of the point IF the LBX slug hits & you get a missile hit on the same suit- 12 points will kill a Elemental, 10 & the SSRM scatter will cripple a IS BA squad.  But yeah, I used it as a veh hunter . . . and the ability to sit in a burning fire hex places it with the Gargoyle Prime as a mech whose doctrine IS to sit in the fire.

Now that you mention the Gargoyle Prime... similar firepower (at slightly shorter range with LB-X/10 versus LB-X/5), similar heat profile, more mobile with the jump jets, but considerably less armor, and all that at a FAR lower price.

The Snake is the Inner Sphere´s budget version of the Gargoyle Prime, and its only sin is that the mission it is build for is so narrow/niche.

[Weirdo]

Actually . . . it can kill 1 Elemental a turn out of the point IF the LBX slug hits & you get a missile hit on the same suit- 12 points will kill a Elemental, 10 & the SSRM scatter will cripple a IS BA squad.  But yeah, I used it as a veh hunter . . . and the ability to sit in a burning fire hex places it with the Gargoyle Prime as a mech whose doctrine IS to sit in the fire.

The idea is to use the cluster rounds. One shot, and instead of hoping to kill one suit at most, most/all of them are now in great danger.

[Colt Ward]

Always thought about the Snake - that it is a Wolftrap with SRMs.... although speaking of the Wolftrap that guy is also not very capable in dealing with Wolfhounds - and speaking of Wolfhounds those are not so solid in their performance when dealing with Panthers.

But I have another - were the lore does not meet the performance. Clearly and obviously the Shrike - in every version. look at the description, based on an Onager and outclassing that Mech in all fields of combat? Wut?
The Onager is a brutal close range Mech and has the durability to use it in most cases, the HAG 30 is also a deadly weapon at range and clearly, a fair match for 2 ER Large Laser and 2 UAC5s or 2 UAC10s - and hands-down the Shrike 3 is even more absurd and prone to overheating.

I think the worst problem of the Shrike (heat) can be overcome by dropping those LRMs - and why to drop a solid HAG30 for two UAC5s is beyond me

A 3/5/5 mech designed to fight under 12 hexes (really 6) vs a mech that can consistently reach out to 25 hexes for a pair of 10 point hits and is 4/6/4(whatever partial gets) and can walk staying neutral?  or kick in cooler weapons and leap about . . . with a TC?  Yeah, the Shrike is better, sorry.  The Onager 2 you might have a case for, but it came out 20+ years later than the Shrike.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Always thought about the Snake - that it is a Wolftrap with SRMs.... although speaking of the Wolftrap that guy is also not very capable in dealing with Wolfhounds - and speaking of Wolfhounds those are not so solid in their performance when dealing with Panthers.

Lolwat?

[RoundTop]

At the time, the triple Streak SRM-2 could mount infernos.  SRM-2s were the only size launcher that could mount infernos.  And infernos then were lethal as all hell.

The LB-10X makes sense for fighting Elementals.  You had enemies that took 11 points of damage to kill.  You'd probably start out with a burst of cluster ammo, slapping a bunch of 1 point hits around the Elemental squad.  Then you would switch over to 10 point slugs and kill one each round.  Makes sense to me.  And the Snake is fast enough that it can stay out of range of the Elementals.  They can't even get in range of their SRMs if the Snake doesn't want them to (unlike the Komodo, which has the same range profile).

SRM-2 was the only one that could mount inferno. Streaks never could AFAIR.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

SRM 2s and SSRM 2s could both use Infernos prior to Total Warfare.

[TigerShark]

SRM 2s and SSRM 2s could both use Infernos prior to Total Warfare.

The decision to disallow inferno from Streak launchers was a big mistake, IMO. The way it's done for the iATM system is perfect: Streak capability for explosive rounds, but you roll on a normal cluster table for the IIW missiles.
It was tinkering with something that wasn't broken.

[massey]

SRM-2 was the only one that could mount inferno. Streaks never could AFAIR.

Streaks could when they first came out.  I checked the book before I posted to make sure. :)

[Liam's Ghost]

There was an optional rule in maximum tech that gave every hit against a battle armor squad a small chance of outright eliminating a suit. I often wonder if it was specifically written for mechs like the Snake.

As for the Snake itself, it still makes sense to have been built, even given its ineffectiveness in its role. The Capellans only had second hand accounts to base their battle armor hunter on, and its easy to imagine underestimating just how hard it would be to kill an elemental.

And even given its limitations, the mech's still a pretty serviceable machine, especially fighting a combined arms opponent. Cluster rounds and lots of SRMs are going to make vehicles cry.

The decision to disallow inferno from Streak launchers was a big mistake, IMO. The way it's done for the iATM system is perfect: Streak capability for explosive rounds, but you roll on a normal cluster table for the IIW missiles.
It was tinkering with something that wasn't broken.

Personally I'm entirely in favor of launching standard SRMs out of a streak launcher (including specialty warheads) without getting the streak bonus. The extra mass you pay for the ability you're not using is penalty enough.

[grimlock1]

Lolwat?

I'm with MoneyLovinOgre.

The idea is to use the cluster rounds. One shot, and instead of hoping to kill one suit at most, most/all of them are now in great danger.

It's amazing the way I have been playing this game and reading these rules for 20+ years and I there are so many things that I didn't know that I already knew.

[The_Caveman]

Let's talk about the Snake 1V (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Snake)

45t, 5/8/5, 7t armor, XL engine, LB10x w/2t ammo, 3x SSRM2.

Purportedly an elemental hunter, or an IS BA hunter... it really is not great for its intended role.  The LB10x is a solid weapon no matter what, but that triple SSRM2 is poor. And then... double-heat sinks, for something that jumping and alpha striking makes... 13 heat.

As a vehicle hunter it might be decent, but it is fairly weakly armored, and again, it is wasting a bunch of tonnage on 3 SSRM2s, which isn't great when trying to counter battle armor or elementals.  You could mount a pair of SRM4s and increase the armor by 0.5t, which would let you mount infernos

LB10X platforms in light mediums are tough, but this one just isn't as fast as others, the secondary weaponry is lackluster, and its "role" is one it is not good at.

Compare against the other "elemental hunter" battlemech, the Komodo. Also 45t, also 5/8/5, also XL engine. But the Komodo mounts 10 medium lasers, TAG, ECM, 2xAMS (and 2t ammo), and 7.t armor.  So it outputs way more damage, it can spot for many things with the TAG, it can shut down hostile electronics, it can swat down elemental SRMs, and has more armor.  The snake just pales in comparison.

Completely disagree. The all-cluster loadout is a nightmare for vehicles and infantry. The LBX is perfect for scoring BA crits without letting them into their effective range and I'd much rather have 3 Streak-2s for the purpose than one Streak-6. Plus, back in the old days, you could put infernos in that SSRM2 bin and the Snake is as heat-neutral as it gets.

[glitterboy2098]

you also have to wonder whether the CapCon actually was concerned with hunting Clan Elementals.. or if they were focused more on hunting the IS Standard, Sloth, and Infiltrator Mk.I suits the Fedcom had developed. which were much more fragile and also far more likely to be encountered by the CCAF.

[Weirdo]

Possibly both. At the time the Snake project likely started, there was no indication the Clans could be stopped before they reached Capellan space. And it doesn't hurt that the same stuff that hurts Elementals usually hurts IS suits as well, usually more so.

[Scotty]

Also here to reiterate that "decisions that make no sense" are not synonymous with "I would have done it differently".

Decision that makes no sense: using Compact Heat Sinks for any reason; putting Composite Structure on a 'Mech with more than 14 free crits; mixing ATMs and iATMs on the same 'Mech.

Decision I would have done differently: 3x Streak-2s instead of a single Streak-6 on the Snake (now that Inferno rules are different, naturally).

[truetanker]

iATMs and ATMs on same mech is a novel idea...

Allows me to use the alternative ammos effectively...

Also should cause people to take a look at what I did there moment!

Able to fire three types, the Improved also allows me Inferno, short range only, and Magnetic Pulse ( for every 3 missiles hit up to +2 < 6 missiles > to target-to hit, walking / running up to -2 MP < 6 missiles, -1 for 3 >, every missile over 3 = + 1 heat )

And then I fire ATMs on top of this... for more crunch factor!

TT

[RoundTop]

Also here to reiterate that "decisions that make no sense" are not synonymous with "I would have done it differently".

Decision that makes no sense: using Compact Heat Sinks for any reason; putting Composite Structure on a 'Mech with more than 14 free crits; mixing ATMs and iATMs on the same 'Mech.

Decision I would have done differently: 3x Streak-2s instead of a single Streak-6 on the Snake (now that Inferno rules are different, naturally).

Ok, I would have said the jackal, ER PPC with 11 standard heat sinks. Ouch.  The panther 10k is almost as bad, but at least it has 13 singles. It was so bad that not only is the 10k2 there downgrading the ppc, but the fluff for the no-dachi and akuma mentions a stockpile of er ppcs sitting around from being pulled out of panthers.

[Greatclub]

Decision I would have done differently: 3x Streak-2s instead of a single Streak-6 on the Snake (now that Inferno rules are different, naturally).

You couldn't have done that. Inner sphere streaks were -2 only until, iirc, Field Manual: Draconis Combine, in 1996. TRO:3055 came out four years earlier.

Same reason there are no IS ER medium in TROs 3050, 3055, and 3058.

[Orin J.]

isn't there a Goshawk that has some SRM launchers and just the single ATM-3 that needs to pack more ammo? i never figured out what possible advantage you could get out of that. it's not like clans are hurting for extremely token ranged fire or something.

[The_Caveman]

Decision I would have done differently: 3x Streak-2s instead of a single Streak-6 on the Snake (now that Inferno rules are different, naturally).

3 Streak-2's are better than 1 Streak-6 in nearly every way. More chances to achieve a lock, more ammo per ton, more tolerant of critical hits. If you have good TNs you'll most likely do the same damage. If you have bad TNs, you're more likely to do *some* damage. At the cost of 1 slot and (maybe) 2 heat. Oh and it even costs less.

The three 2's even perform better against AMS as long as the target isn't a Kit Fox C.

[Sartris]

isn't there a Goshawk that has some SRM launchers and just the single ATM-3 that needs to pack more ammo? i never figured out what possible advantage you could get out of that. it's not like clans are hurting for extremely token ranged fire or something.

Goshawk 3 - ATM-3, x2 SRM-2, x3 HML, ERPPC. the ATM gets one ton of ammo

[truetanker]

I'd run the ATM-3 with ER ammo so that my Vapor Eagle 3 can squash opponents at range, keeping you at 6 hexes or more away from me...

Allows me 3 HML and twin SRM-2 with a nice ATM3 care package to boot. Not to mention that lovely ER PPC stamp to insure proper postage! Of course it might be a bit toasty afterwards...

TT

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Why not just go with HE?  You've already got to close in to use the HMLs and SRMs, why not go for maximum hurt?  An ATM 3 is not an impressive long-range weapon.