Did I miss some change in Battletech while I was away?

[Drewbacca]

There ssems to be a real negative charge in the air in the community, something I have not seen since the MechWarrior click tech days. From people asking about merchandise to others claiming the rules are not easy for new players to grasp, it seems as if there is really something going on out there.

I am not sure when it started, or if it is really there, but this seems to be causing some sort of divide in the community over things that were never really an issue before.

So fill me in, what did I miss?

[Frabby]

Strange - Unlike you, I feel the general attitude has improved, not deteriorated, after that lull period we admittedly had following Herb stepping down as LD.

BattleCorps dying with a whimper and both the old and new Catalyst store having... problems caused a dent in the overall fandom, I think. The new product output has slowed considerably, too, but it was breakneck crazy before and CGL could never have kept that pace up.
That lull (and a period without a proper LD) was felt even more pronounced due to the HBS kickstarter which generated a lot of BattleTech buzz but seemed to involve CGL only on the sidelines. Then the new HG lawsuit put the forum mods on edge, and many mod postings calling the community to order probably also generate the (false) impression that there's rioting going on in the forum streets.

However  ^-^  we've got a new dedicated LD who maintains a good relationship with the fanbase; we have a hit product rejuvenating BT for a new generation with Alpha Strike; product quality remains sterling; and we have a definitive silver lining with the upcoming ilClan product line. So yes, I'd say things are indeed shaping up.

[Kitsune413]

There haven't been any new product releases in a long time.

Things are actually looking up. Check the latest new releases thread.

The issue is since we haven't had any new content to talk about in years people are just talking about the general state of battletech. It'll be ok. New Box sets coming out. It's summer so Ilclan should be out soon... then the conversation will be about other things.

[ActionButler]

At the risk of assuming too much, I think one group of players is disappointed with the lack of progress advancing the story, a whole different group of players is disappointed that we can't get more new players involved, another group of players is disappointed that the game of Battletech just keeps getting bigger and more complex and more bloated with rule and equipment, and all of us are disappointed in the absence of box sets. 

I'm not going to say one way or another if any ne of those groups is right, or if any of them are wrong, or if any of them represent an overwhelming majority.  I'm just a volunteer mod.  I try to help the other mods keep the peace here and that's about all.

What I can say is that, as a player from he early 2000's who quit because of the increasing amount of stuff and rules, yes, I am disappointed that progress in Battletech mostly seems to mean adding more stuff to the game.  I understand why it is done, but I still wish it wasn't that way.  The more things that get added, the more difficult it will be for new folls to join the game, even if you start them in 3025 and let them get used to the new stuff.  Is it impossible for new people to join? No, of course not.  Is it difficult? Yes.  Is it more difficult than many of the big name tabletop games out there that people have gotten used to?  Yes. 

That, then raises a Big Scary Question... should Battletech abandon its model and move to something more familiar to modern gamers? I don't know.  I have never seem a sales figure for Battletech in my life.  Do I wish it would adopt a model more familiar with modern gamers that drew in new blood? Yes.

I wasn't here for the 3250 debate, but I would have definitely supported a time skip if it came with a reset of equipment and rules.  Do I understand why other people opposed the idea? Of course.  It would suck to suddenly see all of your gaming stuff be incompatible with official play.  I respect that.  I really do.  Other games have done it, though, and they survived just fine.  Besides, I'm sure there are plenty of people out there still playing Dungeons and Dragons v1.0, so it isn't like all of those mechs and minis and sourcebooks would be completely worthless.

Since this is already way longer than I intended, all I will say is this... do I want to see ilClan come out to advance the story? Yes.  I have waited decades to see a Clan take Terra.  I want to see how it ends.  Do I wish the game would adopt a modern system? As much as I love the current system, yes, I have vastly less time to enjoy my hobbies these days and I know I'm not the only one. Besides, may e those modern systems know something we don't.  Do I want to see more intro products and maps available? Heck yes. Even if the rules never change, intro boxes help bring in new blood. 

The absence of all of the above is disappointing, yes, but.. with the announcement of the mew intro boxes, and the prototype new maps, and the increased chatter about ilClan, and the other buzz, I am optimistic.  I think, given everything, we're headed in a pretty good direction. Maybe not the direction I want, but who am I? I'm just some guy with an opinion and (apparently) enough time to write a short book. I don't make franchise-wide decisions and there are very good reasons for that. 

Anyway, I don't think the mood is all that bad. I think a lot of us have had time to dwell on things, sure, and that will always end with people eventually picking on things they don't like, but I think things are on the upswing.  Or will be once we get some forward progress.

[Androsynth]

Interesting read. I can speak as someone who has (just this week) come back to the game after 20+ year absence, and as someone who plays a lot of boardgames. These are just my thoughts on what it's been like to try and jump back in. So, in no particular order:

Good: the setting is still deep, complex, and interesting. This has always been Battletech's strength (outside the cool mechs). It feels a lot more like the setting of Dune or The Expanse than a boardgame. That's a good thing. The new mechs and redesigns are awesome.

Bad: Wrapping your head around the current game materials is as complicated the setting. It's ... not easy to figure out what you need, what to buy, or where to start. There are like 30+ books, none of which are clearly labeled 'Core Rules'. It's very unclear which is important, or which covers what, or what is needed from a new person's perspective. Now, I'm used to arcane rules and whatnot so that was no barrier to me but to my friends who game? No way. It's definitely a barrier to entry and bringing people in.

Good: The new books are excellent. I have the Battletech manual and the Campaign guide, and these are very nicely done books. If I saw these on a shelf, they'd pull me in for sure.

Bad: The game mechanics. From a sales/new player standpoint, this is bad. You can tell the game was born in the age of Starfleet Battles. It just takes too long to play. The rules need to be streamlined so that a lance on lance match only takes an hour or so, without sacrificing tactical complexity and the life of a 4 acre plot of forest. It won't stop *me* from playing (I play Advanced Squad Leader too, so you know I am completely whacked :drool:)... but it's hard to talk friends into a good sized mech battle when you need a half-acre table, half a ream of paper, and three days.

I can't speak to morale, I can see why the game is struggling. Like you guys, I really want it to succeed. With Battletech getting good reviews, and Mechwarrior 5 out later this year, this is THE time to breathe some life into the board game. I hope the dev team can do this.

[Crimson Dawn]

Interesting read. I can speak as someone who has (just this week) come back to the game after 20+ year absence, and as someone who plays a lot of boardgames. These are just my thoughts on what it's been like to try and jump back in. So, in no particular order:

Good: the setting is still deep, complex, and interesting. This has always been Battletech's strength (outside the cool mechs). It feels a lot more like the setting of Dune or The Expanse than a boardgame. That's a good thing. The new mechs and redesigns are awesome.

Bad: Wrapping your head around the current game materials is as complicated the setting. It's ... not easy to figure out what you need, what to buy, or where to start. There are like 30+ books, none of which are clearly labeled 'Core Rules'. It's very unclear which is important, or which covers what, or what is needed from a new person's perspective. Now, I'm used to arcane rules and whatnot so that was no barrier to me but to my friends who game? No way. It's definitely a barrier to entry and bringing people in.

Good: The new books are excellent. I have the Battletech manual and the Campaign guide, and these are very nicely done books. If I saw these on a shelf, they'd pull me in for sure.

Bad: The game mechanics. From a sales/new player standpoint, this is bad. You can tell the game was born in the age of Starfleet Battles. It just takes too long to play. The rules need to be streamlined so that a lance on lance match only takes an hour or so, without sacrificing tactical complexity and the life of a 4 acre plot of forest. It won't stop *me* from playing (I play Advanced Squad Leader too, so you know I am completely whacked :drool:)... but it's hard to talk friends into a good sized mech battle when you need a half-acre table, half a ream of paper, and three days.

I can't speak to morale, I can see why the game is struggling. Like you guys, I really want it to succeed. With Battletech getting good reviews, and Mechwarrior 5 out later this year, this is THE time to breathe some life into the board game. I hope the dev team can do this.

As somebody who read a lot of novels and TROs and playing computer/video games (but oddly did not play at all on tabletop) I really agree with you.  I have seen some confusion on what books you really need to have (of course I want all of them but sadly I cannot do that) and the rules are a bit "clunkier" (for lack of a better term) than anything I normally play.

I do think we have a difficulty where this game is built on an older game engine type and it works well especially if you like older stye war games but then that sort of game is harder to push today and changing it will be hard with keeping what people like about Battletech (and everybody has different answers for what is important so good luck figuring out what to keep and change) and so not losing the older core which is what has kept the game going.

I would not worry about how people are talking because at least in my experience whenever it comes to games that we all like conversations can get heated when it comes to talking about whether to make changes and what changes should be done. 

Still I love the story (well before the Fedcom civil war anyway) and I really love the setting.  The mechs are cool and I love the basic way they work.  I LOVE using the mech building/customization rules and TROs.  The computer and video games that I have played have been great fun.  I have fun with the tabletop game so far in play though I would be lying if I did not say I think I could have even more fun if the rules were not quite as clunky for me (I know it works for others just saying it could work better for me).  I may have to look up the Alpha Strike rules and see if they might do the trick because I really like this whole concept I just would like the game to flow better for me.

[Tyler Jorgensson]

There haven't been any new product releases in a long time.

Things are actually looking up. Check the latest new releases thread.

The issue is since we haven't had any new content to talk about in years people are just talking about the general state of battletech. It'll be ok. New Box sets coming out. It's summer so Ilclan should be out soon... then the conversation will be about other things.

This: 100% this. While a lot of mini releases have appeared (the PDF's of Touring the Stars and things like that) very little new material has advanced the storyline.

Sucession Wars (One and Two) were beautifully done but people have been a little frustrated with not continuing the story and simply fully in gaps (I loved them filling the backstory in)

People being frustrated has led (IMO at least) to admins and moderators being a bit more... I don't really want to say harsh, maybe tense is a better word... and that filters a bit more cleanly when the whole Harmony Gold situation filters in. The HG (IMO once again) seems to have caused a couple hiccups which may or may not affect things down the pipeline which in turn frustrates people.

Now personally I'm only ever annoyed by one thing: and that's the lack of a Clan Starter Box from this decade or century lol. I love the new sculpts and will definetly buy a starter box but always get angry at lack of Clan Starter Packs. I get it, I do.

HOWEVER ALL IS NOT LOST: REJOICE FOR NEW IS COMING!!!
(Sorry for the caps)

Seriously the coming releases are coming and coming and soon! They are major products, novels, and starter kits. Patience is all that is needed before we explode via hype! Take hints from the Ghost Bears: hibernate a bit and then surge out and smack something. All will be alright soon


My two cents...

[Nicoli]

For me I also sit in the camp of love the setting, starting to really think the game is held back by the rules. This has mostly come because with the massive renaissance in the gaming world due to kickstarter and gaming going more main stream in general, I have seen significantly more game mechanics compared to when I first started playing back in the late 80's. Even after playing several matches on Megamek, I came away with the feeling that I didn't as much play the game as survived going through it. Then when I got to play the new BT computer game and found that it when converted into a proper computer game, they actually simplified much of the game. Which is normally the opposite that should happen, as normally designers get to play around with stuff they couldn't do on the board game. Our FLGS has a fairly large group of Ex-BT players who were all talking about how fun the new computer game was. When one of us brought up getting the TT game back out on the table there was a unanimous and resounding "No" from every one. Because anymore after a 2-3 hour game you feel like you only accomplished what should have taken place over an hour of gaming.

Now you do have Alpha Strike but to me it just doesn't feel like Battletech. It went a little bit too far for me to where it really took away a lot of the elements I liked about Battletech.

[iamfanboy]

Bad: Wrapping your head around the current game materials is as complicated the setting. It's ... not easy to figure out what you need, what to buy, or where to start. There are like 30+ books, none of which are clearly labeled 'Core Rules'. It's very unclear which is important, or which covers what, or what is needed from a new person's perspective. Now, I'm used to arcane rules and whatnot so that was no barrier to me but to my friends who game? No way. It's definitely a barrier to entry and bringing people in.

Good: The new books are excellent. I have the Battletech manual and the Campaign guide, and these are very nicely done books. If I saw these on a shelf, they'd pull me in for sure.

Bad: The game mechanics. From a sales/new player standpoint, this is bad. You can tell the game was born in the age of Starfleet Battles. It just takes too long to play. The rules need to be streamlined so that a lance on lance match only takes an hour or so, without sacrificing tactical complexity and the life of a 4 acre plot of forest. It won't stop *me* from playing (I play Advanced Squad Leader too, so you know I am completely whacked :drool:)... but it's hard to talk friends into a good sized mech battle when you need a half-acre table, half a ream of paper, and three days.

So, there exists Alpha Strike. On the one hand, it plays very smoothly, and is highly tactical in gameplay - it basically uses the old Battleforce stats for individual 'Mechs, so instead of having multiple hit locations and weapons there's one value for armor, structure, damage at short medium long range and so forth. It's a game of both maneuver and luck - lights are highly valuable for being able to backstab, and outmaneuver their own lights while your heavy/assault core fight each other. Integrated artillery, airstrikes.

But... it's too far the other way. It feels GOOD, but it doesn't feel like Battletech, not entirely. It cuts out too much, and honestly doesn't have the "Knights in robo-armor" feel that I want.

However, for starting new players it plays smooth and is easily understood.

[Androsynth]

So, there exists Alpha Strike. On the one hand, it plays very smoothly, and is highly tactical in gameplay - it basically uses the old Battleforce stats for individual 'Mechs, so instead of having multiple hit locations and weapons there's one value for armor, structure, damage at short medium long range and so forth. It's a game of both maneuver and luck - lights are highly valuable for being able to backstab, and outmaneuver their own lights while your heavy/assault core fight each other. Integrated artillery, airstrikes.

But... it's too far the other way. It feels GOOD, but it doesn't feel like Battletech, not entirely. It cuts out too much, and honestly doesn't have the "Knights in robo-armor" feel that I want.

However, for starting new players it plays smooth and is easily understood.

Yeah, that's why I went for the main rules. Most of the reviews were pretty rough, said that it stripped out everything that made Battletech feel like Battletech.

Anyone remember Starfleet Battles? Stupidly complex and detailed Trek fleet combat game I can't believe I ever played. It's like IRS Tax Law in space. No way anyone would even look at it now. But the company who owns the rights makes a game called 'Federation Commander' now. All the rules have been vastly streamlined using more modern mechanics but -and this is the key- the new game *plays* like Starfleet Battles minus all the tedium. All the old tactics still work, there's just way less bookkeeping and overhead. Battletech needs something like this.

Make the piles of weapons sheets condense down to where you can put a whole lance on one sheet. Make weapon strikes much faster by designing smart combat results tables, and simplify all the special rules down to where they fit on one play aid. If you did all that, this would play like a mech version of something like Conflict of Heroes (high praise), deep and interesting but not slow.

That said, I'm used to this kinda thing so I'll still have fun with it with a friend or two... but my gaming group? It's gonna be a hard sell. 

[iamfanboy]

Trust me, know that pain with SFB. Seriously, try Alpha Strike - bonus points because you can field most of your collection at a time, if you've got a big one!

Once, my friends and I played battalion versus battalion in AS (about 1500 points on a side), one player per company and each player activates a unit when it's their turn. Game was over in 3-4 hours, and it was a BLAST. Honestly one of the most fun memories I can recall from two and a half decades of wargaming - it felt like commanding a real army, watching the tides move back and forth and gradually move into an enveloping strategy that was deflected by a sudden flanking movement from a fast-moving Nova which dropped Gnomes into a key position and then suicide-ran their two Fire Moth H's into the C3 Master(2) that was running a full company. If it hadn't been for the timely arrival of a Thunderbird carrying enough bombs to melt a city, we might have lost - and even that was a touch-and-go thing, as our interceptors kept THEIR interceptors from tying up the T-Bird and downing it.


So Alpha Strike IS a great game. Unquestioned. It just doesn't work at a lance-sized scale: it's about a quarter of a real game at that value.

[onionmancer]

There ssems to be a real negative charge in the air in the community, something I have not seen since the MechWarrior click tech days. From people asking about merchandise to others claiming the rules are not easy for new players to grasp, it seems as if there is really something going on out there.

I am not sure when it started, or if it is really there, but this seems to be causing some sort of divide in the community over things that were never really an issue before.

So fill me in, what did I miss?

Long term, people are leaving the game for other games (or people stop playing and new players pick up games that are more accessible or engaging).  People are engaging that problem. I don't know if I call that noticing this problem a "divide" as much as a demographic issue - people who enjoy the game as it is are not large enough a population to support the game through retail channels. I like the game as-is but think it needs a complete overhaul to stay competitive given improvements in game design over the last few decades.  That may mean alienating a significant portion of the current userbase, but it is the only way to attract sufficient numbers of new players to keep the game viable.

It is a mistake to view critiques of the game as problematic.  The game has a much better chance of mounting a comeback if fans who have drifted from the game are engaged in thoughtful critique and feedback rather than just leaving the forum if they don't like the status quo. 

[victor_shaw]

Now this is all my personal opinion about the issues with battletech, so take it with a grain of salt.
Battletech as a licence is dying, they have lost touch with the fans and don't seem to understand the current gaming market.

1.Boardgame
A. The game is an 80's style board game trying to compete in a 2000's style gaming market. While it has a rich history and great story, it will never have that much of a draw in its current state to new players.
B. Older players from back in the day Are getting fed-up with the persistent power creep and complexity that the game has. this is also a turn-off to new players. 
C. The rules are spread-out over 8 books that are expensive and page heavy.
D. The persistent illogical advancement of the story. Why is clan tech still not being used in the Innersphere, why are warships being phased-out while the clan fleets are still a threat.

2. Roleplaying (From what I can tell CGL has abandoned the RPG side of the universe.)
A. From a role-playing aspect, the current RPG rule are terrible. It takes forever to make a character and the rules are not as immersive as they seem to think . When I play I use Mechwarrior 2nd edition rule and my players love them. Everyone I have tried to get to play AToW thinks the game is terrible.
B. Math, and no I'm not taking about figuring out TN. The amount of math needed during character creation, even with it just being adding,subtraction, and some division is just to much. When you need a spreadsheet and an hour or two to make a character, the game has issues.
C. The point of 3rd/4th was to fix a minor problem with possible powergaming in 2nd. But in typical Fasa/Fanpro/CGL style the answer was to make the rules more complex which is a turn-off to a lot of gamers. When a fix could have been as simple as 0 level skills and higher skill cost which where used in 3rd/4th, but gummed-up with all the others unnecessary changes.
D. life-paths are dumb. Most every game that tried them has dropped them. People want to make the character they want not follow some path the designers think is cool.

Overall the game needs a major overhaul in all its incarnations, not just another time skip and some new stories to survive.

[Starfox1701]

As someone who's been in and out a lot over the years and literally owns every iteration of the game is say you have 3 core problems.

1st your core rules are a confused mess. Back in 3rd and 4th we had basically 3 books and each book was neat and tidy in its divisions of the rules. Now we have what 6, 7, or is it up to 8 now; I can't keep track. Add to that the fact that the rules for some things are needlessly spread over several books and it can get real tedious trying to find stuff much less teach someone else when you walk out with what looks like a full college course load in your arms for what is supposed to be an afternoon of fun. The earlier comparison to starfleet battles was in many ways very on point. While some streamlining may be in order there definitely needs to be a reorganization of the core books so that all of something is in the same book. I shouldn't need two books to build a basic mech or 4 to assemble a full campaign manual.

2nd finding the miniatures outside of the internet can be a real pain. None of my flags stock minis for cbt and from my experience the miniatures are going to be the easiest draw for new players. That said that new starter box is a step in the right direction but its not enough. The game needs 40k type access to minis and a broad range of cost effective plastics wouldn't but either.

3rd stop neglecting the aerospace arm of the game. Yes mechs rock and you can pry my direwolf from my cold dead hands but big f-all spaceships are cool too. Stop trying to kill them off as the story progresses.should mechs stay the kings of the battlefield? Duh but the setting is far better when its complete and not being needlessly truncated.

Do think it needs a major overhaul? No but there needs to be a return to a setup that allows the player to more easily add or remove complexity as they desire like was originally intended. Oh and P.S. STOP REDESIGNING THE STARTER ERA TRO. 

[Kidd]

Alpha Strike is the answer.

It basically IS Battletech v2.0. Except players need to be able to do 2 things which we currently can't - play it on PC so we can learn/play on our own time, and instantly translate custom builds into game units.

Solution: Build a Megamek AS and Heavymetal AS, push Alpha Strike as the successor and include AS stats in new TROs, and you will breathe new life into the game.

In addition to the ongoing universe and fiction development that is. There are a few reasons why its not a good idea. But there it is.

[nova_dew]

As another in and out of battletech person, my issues are not what other people seem to have.

i love the setting and the community and the game, (sadly i don't know the staff that well, but from what i've seen of them on here, they don't deserve the flak, the player base can and sadly sometimes have given them, for their hard work) does it need simplifying even more, i think it would lose something that makes it battletech, i think the books just need refining.

[iamfanboy]

Oh man, A Time of War... I forgot to mention THAT. Urgh. How could you write an RPG for a set of games (Aerospace, Battletech, Battleforce) that all use a 2d6 bell curve and NOT use a 2d6 bell curve? MW3e was a straight mistake, they had a chance to correct it, and... Blargh. MW2e was solid because it integrated straight into the tabletop game; it may have had balance problems but dropping 2d6 was ditching the baby with the bathwater. If I were to play Battletech ever again as a straight dish, I'd be running MW2e with it because the complication makes some sense as an RPG with small unit fights.

[Androsynth]

So Alpha Strike IS a great game. Unquestioned. It just doesn't work at a lance-sized scale: it's about a quarter of a real game at that value.

Ah, ok, that makes sense. It works but only if you play a big enough scale battle. I'll have to check this out.

1st your core rules are a confused mess. Back in 3rd and 4th we had basically 3 books and each book was neat and tidy in its divisions of the rules. Now we have what 6, 7, or is it up to 8 now; I can't keep track.

Yeah, as someone coming back after 20+ years, this is totally the case. It is ridiculously hard to figure out what to get. Last time I played the game I bought the core rules, a couple of TROs and some sheets and was off to the races (I already had the mechs from an earlier version).

Older players from back in the day Are getting fed-up with the persistent power creep and complexity that the game has. this is also a turn-off to new players. 

I can see this too, I just finished reading the new rules. The weapons kind of have this tv telemarketer 'but wait! there's MORE!' sort of vibe with all the 'super extra ultra expanded PPC ... of doom!' stuff. I dragged mechwarrior 4 mercs out of mothballs with the new megamek patch and was like... wtf is all this crap, I just wanna roll with a standard MadCat.

None of this is insurmountable though. I've seen GMT games reboot a ton of overly-complex games like this and watched the popularity soar after. They need two books: a main rulebook, and a main alpha strike book (basically Battletech/Battleforce). Use the 'dark age' thing to scale back a lot of the overpowered tech and get the game back to where it was, or just reset back to just after the clans invaded. They have free marketing with two A-list Battletech PC games coming out too.

[Paul]

How could you write an RPG for a set of games (Aerospace, Battletech, Battleforce) that all use a 2d6 bell curve and NOT use a 2d6 bell curve?

I guess you don't know ATOW is 2d6?

[Kitsune413]

At the risk of assuming too much, I think one group of players is disappointed with the lack of progress advancing the story, a whole different group of players is disappointed that we can't get more new players involved, another group of players is disappointed that the game of Battletech just keeps getting bigger and more complex and more bloated with rule and equipment, and all of us are disappointed in the absence of box sets.

I think there is a root cause for half of that though...

I think it's uncommon for a playerbase to be concerned that there aren't enough new people adopting a game.

The real fear is that Battletech might be dying.

It isn't dying.

But because there is a lack of product it makes people nervous and it also makes them bored. Which is why I think players are suddenly invested in drawing in new players... and talking about how there is too much stuff is just how they think they can attract new players so they can get new product so that the game stays alive.

I think you'll see all of that go away when they start shipping out product.

I wasn't here for the 3250 debate, but I would have definitely supported a time skip if it came with a reset of equipment and rules.  Do I understand why other people opposed the idea? Of course.  It would suck to suddenly see all of your gaming stuff be incompatible with official play.  I respect that.  I really do.  Other games have done it, though, and they survived just fine.  Besides, I'm sure there are plenty of people out there still playing Dungeons and Dragons v1.0, so it isn't like all of those mechs and minis and sourcebooks would be completely worthless.

I was here for that debate and I'm confused by it. To me the backlash didn't seem that terrible. It just seemed like they announced something on the internet and the internet did as it does. I wonder if there were a lot of e-mails or something flying around that I missed.

 

Anyway, I don't think the mood is all that bad. I think a lot of us have had time to dwell on things, sure, and that will always end with people eventually picking on things they don't like, but I think things are on the upswing.  Or will be once we get some forward progress.

I agree.

[iamfanboy]

I guess you don't know ATOW is 2d6?

Don't know how I did THAT mistake. I guess the last time I looked at it was back on its initial release, when I got frustrated making a character and chucked it on the shelf; somehow I got its dice system conflated with the older rules in the... good gods.

Almost ten years since then.

...I'm going to go to my preschool. Working with little kids never makes me feel old like talking on a forum does. :P

[ActionButler]

I think there is a root cause for half of that though...

I think it's uncommon for a playerbase to be concerned that there aren't enough new people adopting a game.

The real fear is that Battletech might be dying.

It isn't dying.

But because there is a lack of product it makes people nervous and it also makes them bored. Which is why I think players are suddenly invested in drawing in new players... and talking about how there is too much stuff is just how they think they can attract new players so they can get new product so that the game stays alive.

I think you'll see all of that go away when they start shipping out product.

At the risk of getting too deeply involved with this topic, I agree with you that concerns will die down when new products are shipped, but I believe that that is only part of the issue. 

I agree with you that Battletech is not dying.  With the new HBS game out, Battletech (the franchise) is seeing a lot of new interest.  HOWEVER... while we are still waiting for those new intro boxes, Battletech (the tabletop game) is stuck in a surviving-but-not-expanding sort of holding pattern.  It isn't dying, certainly not as long as there are veteran player still pushing minis around hex maps, but it isn't pulling in anyone new.  THAT is what concerns me, because, eventually, we aren't going to be enough.  A new generation of fans is required for the franchise to continue, THAT is where I worry about the lack of updated, modernized rules and/or any intro products at all. 

At some point in time, somewhere in the equation of What Keeps Battletech Alive?,  there must be something with the appeal to draw new players in.  If the intro boxes that use 30 year old rules combined with Alpha Strike are enough, good.  Grand, even.  If those products are not enough to bring new people in, though, if modern players are just not interested in 30 years worth of rules and equipment and backstory and relatively static rules that were specifically designed to appeal to a crowd that gravitates towards very slow, very detailed, very granular play that you don't see in many modern games, then yes, Battletech (the tabletop game) is what needs to change. 

But, again, I'm just a mod.  I do not now, nor have I ever, seen any sales figures, so all of the above is just personal opinion.

[Paul]

Don't know how I did THAT mistake.

Sokay, it's a small mistake compared to making the Modules the main chargen system as opposed to point-buy being the main way, and modules the optional method.

Almost ten years since then.

Definitely 10 years since we got that little guy started.

[Hythos]

Look for current Demo Team agents running games.

Play a "Grinder" match for a few hours.

Run through a few 'non-serious' matches, and/or speed-games....


My opinion:
Rules are fine (BT, & AToW).
Run-times are fine (Classic & AS).
Complexity is fine (Classic needn't change.)

Some of the things I address while hosting games:

While there are heaps of rules, I start off new players with the basics in mostly a 1-on-1, but do generally have other players actively playing games for people to watch and see how it goes.

• As play progresses (through different games or through expanded periods), that is when I introduce new / advanced rules (TacOps, StratOps, etc). Usually, I allow and address the rules behind the "How can I do XXXX" type of questions.


Regarding play-time, the slow-downs are deciding on movement (25% of the total time spent), declaring & calculating weapons-attacks (<50% of the time spent), and laughing, commenting, general conversation, about 20%. Fill in the rest with recording damage and rolling dice (or, chasing a die that rolled off a table).

• Once players know the game well, it becomes easier to calculate the to-hit rolls, to know missile-weapon-charts, and to-hit charts (both front and sides).
• Pro-tip: Battlemech hit locations: 2 (CT Crit-chance, or, floating crit); 12 Head. Then, everything in-between moves from the right-side, to the left: 3&4 = RA, next is 5=RL, 6=RT, 7=CT, and it reverses location-order in the other direction: 8=LT, 9=LL, 10&11 = LA.
• Cluster-hits are a bit more of a 'get to know' through use. But basically, 11 & 12's are always the full compliment.
  Plan moves & attacks while opponents are moving..


Complexity varies, but even from the start - 1on1 4v4 games can take an hour, or less, and still be just as enjoyable.

• Grinder is a great way to learn the all the rules, quickly. It exposes players to new weapon systems (as they progress through different levels of equipment), and because it focuses on speed-of-play, the dice calculating and rolling can be accelerated by a factor.
• Another effort I employ when hosting a me-vs-players scenario, is that I allow them to make their to-hit rolls all simultaneously on their own, and just report the damage... *I* don't need to know about their hits & misses, ammo expenditures, or heat. It's good for them to keep track of all of that, once they understand it.

Lots of little things will take the time of one turn of combat from 45 minutes to 7-8 minutes, and still not feel rushed.  Try doing that in one of the other needs-not-be-named table-top war-game.


** Disclaimer - Yes, I realize none of this addresses the community perspective, though I feel it pertains to the "it takes to long and/or is too complex" claims.

[Rorke]

Alpha Strike is the answer.

It basically IS Battletech v2.0. Except players need to be able to do 2 things which we currently can't - play it on PC so we can learn/play on our own time, and instantly translate custom builds into game units.

Solution: Build a Megamek AS and Heavymetal AS, push Alpha Strike as the successor and include AS stats in new TROs, and you will breathe new life into the game.

In addition to the ongoing universe and fiction development that is. There are a few reasons why its not a good idea. But there it is.

No thank you.  I have zero interest in anything, other than the game I started on.  I've
looked at AS, and for myriad reasons I didn't think it was for me. 

I admit freely Classic suffers from bloat in many regards, but to cast it aside strikes me
as an appalling idea.  I admit there is bloat in regular Battlech, too many weapons, rules
and various units for some.  But I think many would miss that variety, that immense
amount of choice if it was no longer there.

Throw out any idea about this game and it's universe, and you'll get more
opinions and counter ideas than there's planets in the IS.

A long delay in new stuff, never good.  Partisan players feeling their factions have been
hard done to, regrettably the same.  That folks, was a thing.  A quite considerable
thing, things here got rather dramatic. 

Perhaps we did need a time jump and a reset. But for me a long time player, the
continuity and advancement of the universe was part of the attraction.  Take that
away, and what reason is there to continue?  But to each their own.

My Battletech might not be your Battletech, but I hope you enjoy yours as much
as I do mine. 

[Colt Ward]

I will agree with Hythos . . . our last round of the tournament was time limited at 3 hours, each player had 10k and we would get 4 or 5 rounds in my games- granted my games took longer b/c I had 14 different units since I did combined arms.  We also used some of the more advanced rules . . . I had artillery, occasionally fired smoke rounds and we had maps that actually required movement to engage- usually some obstruction was in the middle, which some used b/c they had close assault forces.

We are using 2 tables, each has 2 maps though last time we only had 2 games scheduled so the other table had a single map where another long time player was doing some fun stuff for a newer player who brought her minis, and a guy who walked up and started talking to us after he saw the tables.  Our group has grown from 4 to . . . 10?  Honestly not sure b/c not everyone plays every week.  We also have large groups at the state con . . . honestly, the situation is way better than it was when I started playing TT with Savage Coyote over . . . 15 years? ago- ugh I feel old now.

I am going to go with the consensus . . . a lot of this discussion is b/c we do not have new products, we do not have products from the new team to judge their direction, and the HG thing came back like a zombie in a sequel.

[Foxx Ital]

There's no simple solution which can be aggregating in and of itself. I think you kinda gotta pick a era and stick to it for a while until you're comfortable. Personally I'm glad restless started me in a clan sibko as it made learning the spheroid weapons a lot easier.
 Iv also had the luxury of being in the game so long I could learn the new tech as it gradually came out.
 As others have said use regular bt for smaller engagements and AS for larger ones and you in theory should be good.
 If you use megamek and want to fight larger battles.i suggest simultaneous fire along with move one star/lance at a time, it significantly speeds things up.
 If anything I feel like being a clanner is easier because the I.S. has a LOT more equipment options.
 

[victor_shaw]

What we need is something in between Battletech and Alpha Strike.
Something with the speed of Alpha Strike and the individual battlemech play of Battletech.

And no the game is not fine.
If old guard keep defending it then you are sentencing the game to a slow death.
A IP survives by drawing in new players, if battletech can't do that then they might as well give up.
As for HBS Battletech,I own it and the game is more geared towards the Mechwarrior online players, not the boardgamers so I don't see it helping as much as people think.
I'm not going to sugar coat it, AToW is crap. I have tried to run the game multiple times with multiple groups and every time the players have hated it. The game turns everyone I have talked to off. And before you go trying to blame it on me, I have also run multiple Mechwarrior 2nd ed games before and after that everyone loved.
As for sales, only one of the many stores in may city even carry Battletech products any more and most of those are special orders that never got picked up. So the owner has changed to only getting product that is special orders and you have to put a half down deposit to cover his cost.
Outside of the games I run there is only one small group of battletech players in the city that I know of and its a bunch of old timers that have all but given up recruiting new player.
So not sure where some people are getting the idea that the game is doing fine. When it is all but dead in a city of 6 hundred thousand people.
 

[Colt Ward]

Your story is anecdotal just like mine, so experiences vary.  Like I said, 15 years ago it was a really small group of in their 20s that were busy with other things so we could not really foster the time to build up . . . it was also when the future was more in doubt than it is now.

I honestly think some of it is how its explained.  The grinders work really well when played here as a entry point, and last year at the con we had huge conversion from grinder to the story events- the new players really got into being Space Samurai.

I think the biggest thing is, do not overwhelm new people as you introduce them.  They do not need to know about Clan tech, the FedCom Civil War, Jihad and its tech spread, or the Dark Ages . . . yet.

[Sellsword]

As long as we are being anecdotal, I really think that B-Tech needs some help in the 21st century.  Areas where battletech are thriving do not appear to be the norm.

If I have time, when I go on vacations, I like to stop into as many Gaming stores as possible looking for not just Battletech but older used games.  A couple years ago, I went to Virginia beach. I took one rainy day and called and went around to all the Gaming/Comic stores that I could come up with in the Virginia Beach, Norfolk, Williamsburg, and all the way to Richmond.  I found one store with battletech and they were trying to get rid of the mini box sets dirt cheap.

I also live on the I-81 corridor in Virginia.  There are 3 gaming stores within 45 minutes of my house.  None of them carry battletech.  An hour + into Northern VA will get me a store that carries minimal battletech, 2 books and some box sets, and has a group that used to meet Mondays though it appears that they've stopped doing that.

Northern VA is a very affluent area.  Many people have the disposable income to spend on wargames but they don't appear to be spending it on Battletech.

I know theis doesn't mean much to people who don't live in Virginia but basically I've been up and down the east coast of the state and have found 2 stores with Battletech (maybe 3, for some reason I think there was a store in Fairfax that had some Battletech but it isn't popping into my mind at work) and none of those stores had quantities that indicate that they were supporting the game or the game was thriving in their area.