Mech sensors

[DarkSpade]

What are mech's electronics capable of tracking/determining?   

I know thermal imaging is there and mech ID is a thing, but what about the enemy damage schematics that we see in all the video games?  And how good are the sensors at IDing another unit?  Is it chassis only, or can they tell the difference between a HBK-4G and a HBK-4P

[dgorsman]

Depends who you ask.

Me, I don't buy into most of the magical sensor gear but maybe that's my electronics training at work.  For example the damage diagrams wouldn't be a thing, outside of what the Mechwarrior can see (through various other sensors).  Telling the difference between Mechs may be possible given the targeting systems i.e. frequency, pulse repetition rate, and so on.

[monbvol]

Considering the Timber Wolf got called the Mad Cat because mech sensors couldn't make up their mind if it was a Marauder or a Catapult they seem to be able to identify shapes pretty well.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Usually, a mech's sensors are supposed to be able to ID the variant of a hostile mech based on its EM signal as long as the mech's warbook has been updated to include that info (for example, there's a Battlecorp short story involving a BJ-2O Blackjack that gets in a fight with a prototype PXH-4L Phoenix Hawk- the P-Hawk's stealth armor meant that the Blackjack had trouble IDing it).

The wireframe damage model seems to be merely a convenience of the video games.

[Empyrus]

Is it chassis only, or can they tell the difference between a HBK-4G and a HBK-4P

I would assume IDing target depends on collected data and how advanced electronics a 'Mech is carrying. Like state of the art Star League vs late Succession Wars.

Far away, we might determine that there's a medium-class 'Mech approaching. Closer, we can limit it to a range like 45-55 tons or perhaps exactly 50 tons. I assume MAD and seismic sensors would be ones to determine this, but not sure. Seismic sensors naturally require one to be still to avoid "noise".
Depending on LOS, radar and lidar can map the target's overall shape, which can be matched against database to determined chassis type, remember how Phelan Kell's computer couldn't decided between Catapult and Marauder when it saw the Timber Wolf the first time.
Once target is sufficiently close, specific variant can be probably determined, if there's sufficient tells for that (eg the Centurion's cannon is clearly different between A and AH variants).
Knowing what the target is, and knowing our firepower, we can calculate approximate damage it has suffered. It is probably impossible to get as accurate data as Mechwarrior games give us, but knowing that the target's, for example, left torso is badly damaged is plausible.
Naturally ECM and/or Stealth armor would limit this knowledge, and the Beagle Active Probe would enable more accurate and faster data collection.

Ultimately a lot depends on how smart computers in BTU are, and how much sensor fusion there is. The Tech Manual's essay on BattleMechs implies that they're quite smart at least for control purposes, so i'd assume quite accurate and fast data analysis is within their capabilities. Or at least among state of the art 'Mechs or those equipped with Active Probes.
And given that 'Mechs are usually described as having variety of sensors, sensor fusion seems likely (that is, combining data points from different sensors to create a picture that is more accurate and/or informative than any single sensor gives).

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

  Sensors are either active or passive.

  Passive sensors are just that: Passive. They function by detecting and gathering sensory data for human or computerized analysis and interpretation, without transmitting energy in the process. Example: An early IR camera needed an infrared spectrum light source for the camera to operate. An IR spotlight was invisible, unless somebody possessed an IR camera or a more advanced thermal camera, which would make the IR spotlight stand out like a normal light spectrum spotlight.

  A simple passive sensor would be a photoelectric cell to determine light and its intensity. Another simple sensor would be a camera, which allows the viewer to determine the image and its meaning. More complicated systems would have a computer interpret images.
  A more complicated visual sensor would magnify ambient light (such as starlight scopes) or use thermal imaging. Other spectrum imaging is also possible.

Audial sensors (external microphones) can be attuned to magnify ambient noise or be concentrated in a single direction. ICE vehicles tend to be very noisy, especially tracked vehicles; Hovers are extremely loud.

  A Seismometer measures ground motion. From earthquakes to vehicle movement, the density of the ground transmits the vibrations caused, over long distances. With sufficient programming, a calibrated seismometer could determine the density of the ground, and interpret the nature of vibration, location and distance.

  A gyroscope would be linked with an inertial sensor to determine movement on a map if there were no other navigational systems available (non-magnetic worlds, too much interference, lack of nav beacons or sats).

  Atmospheric sensors would measure ambient temperature, humidity, wind speed, etc., that would allow trained personnel to act as FAC (forward air controllers...I was one) or even control air traffic.
 
  Radiometers quantitatively measure the intensity of electromagnetic radiation in some bands within the spectrum. Usually, a radiometer is further identified by the portion of the spectrum it covers; for example, visible, infrared, or microwave. With this sensor, many active sensors (and ECM) would shine like beacons, as would fusion power plants.

  Spectrometer: a device that is designed to detect, measure, and analyze the spectral content of incident electromagnetic radiation. Conventional imaging spectrometers use gratings or prisms to disperse the radiation for spectral discrimination. Simply put, this sensor would be able to classify fusion power plants and weapons by measuring their radiation.

Spectroradiometer: A radiometer that measures the intensity of radiation in multiple wavelength bands (i.e., multispectral). Many times the bands are of high-spectral resolution. A combination and improvement of the above two systems. This steps beyond mere thermal sensors, as it is currently used to cover large-scale terrain mapping and weather patterns. With programming, this sensor combination is capable of analyzing chemical compositions.

  Next: Active Sensors

[DarkSpade]

 
  Radiometers quantitatively measure the intensity of electromagnetic radiation in some bands within the spectrum. Usually, a radiometer is further identified by the portion of the spectrum it covers; for example, visible, infrared, or microwave. With this sensor, many active sensors (and ECM) would shine like beacons, as would fusion power plants.

Okay, that explains how ARAD missiles work.  That always bothered me.


I did find where sensors are covered in Tac:Ops so now I have a more rules based question.  How are shutdown mechs handled?  From what I can see, it's never mentioned so I'm assuming they're just treated as not moving.  Shouldn't they be harder to detect though?

[dgorsman]

They're big, they're metal - perfect conditions for reflecting radar.

[Empyrus]

I did find where sensors are covered in Tac:Ops so now I have a more rules based question.  How are shutdown mechs handled?  From what I can see, it's never mentioned so I'm assuming they're just treated as not moving.  Shouldn't they be harder to detect though?

Non-rules answer: A shutdown 'Mech will take hours to cool down to ambient temperature, so it probably is reasonably visible in infrared. It is very visible hunk of metal in radar and MAD. And lidar sees it well enough.
I would assume 'Mech computer is smart enough to track multiple targets and remember their last known position, so shutting down a 'Mech wouldn't do much anyway.

A quick (really quick) look at the double-blind rules didn't seem to have any notes about shutdown targets so i'd assume that has limited effect on detection, if any.

[Ogra_Chief]

My own head cannon always assumed there were automatous droids (at the time), now known as drones in the modern era, that circled the battlefield adding their own data to the extensive flow of information feeding the battlemechs as they moved through engagements. You just never saw or heard of them because they were so integrated. This was reinforced in my mind when TRO: 3026 was released featuring the: Hi-Scout, Scout/Drone Carrier, w/ its’ - PathTrack and NapFind drones -

from Sarna:
“The vehicle's sensor suite includes infrared, seismic, sound, motion, radio, radar and hyperpulse to detect any unit within 60 kilometers.”

So, it wouldn’t be unreasonable to assume that there are many offboard data feeders trying to filter through the ECM soup and relay information to the combatants. Thus some sensor suites work better than others at times.

[R.Tempest]

 Re: Damage to targets.
 Some things will be obvious without an opponent damage display. A sudden spike on the IR display after damage could indicate engine damage, a smaller spike being heat sink damage. Ammo being dumped indicates damage to a weapon. The mech staggering could indicate pilot injury or having taken more than 20 points of damage (and recovering).
 Straight visual will show armor damage. Seems to me that mech coolant is described somewhere as bright green. Streaks of that colour will indicate HS damage.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

  How are shutdown mechs handled?  From what I can see, it's never mentioned so I'm assuming they're just treated as not moving.  Shouldn't they be harder to detect though?

  Does a 'mech ever entirely shut down? A jet doesn't required its engines running to power its avionics or radio. A 'mech would have backup battery power for many of its systems, especially for its ELT (Emergency Location Transmitter), if activated.
  Once a pilot chooses to remove his machine from the battle, he powers down his weapons and engine, then sits out the encounter until hostilities end. Activating a ELT is fully legal, it allows both sides to know the shutdown 'mech's exact location. If the outcome is favorable, he could power up and go home, if able; if the enemy holds the field, he can radio the enemy that he surrenders and will submit his 'mech and person for ransom.

   Unless actively transmitting, only radiation and thermal detecting scanners would likely detect a shut down machine that isn't in plain view.

 

[SteelRaven]

Shutdown mechanic was something from the Mechwarrior PC games. I'm guess it was inspired by The Last Star Fighter as they hid from the enemy fleet by shutting down everything but life support on a asteroid to cut down on their electronic signature.

The only way I can see it work in universe is if a already hidden unit choose to keep his engine shutdown to cut down on the thermal signature. This wouldn't work during a battle of course as the mech would still be hot (you can still spot shut down mechs in therma in MWO, you can only hope they mistake you for a recently kill)   

There are other ways to stay hidden in BT but it gets harder when the opposing force is actively hunting for you. I can only guess that 'Smoke' rounds contain other chemicals and particles design to the very least confuse the sensor on mechs and other combat vehicles. 

[DarkSpade]

I'm thinking along the lines of a pilot trying to set up an ambush.   That's actually part of what brought the question to mind.  I'm going to be GMing some games in the near future(players vs me in an RPGish game) and I'm trying to figure out what type of info would be readily available to them thanks to their mechs's sensors.   For the first scenario I wanted to have a mech hiding in some heavy woods waiting for the right time to ambush them.   My dilemma here is is that even possible or would they detect the shut down mech the moment they stepped foot on the map?

[Daryk]

Camo netting can help, especially if it has electronic components to defeat sensors.

"Smoke" rounds are probably better called "obscurants", to reflect the multi-spectral effects they can have.

[guardiandashi]

some of this is my interpretation but also includes things from the battletechnology magazine (lost issues) specifically the targeting and tracking systems article.

every unit on the battlefield has sensors of some variety, they range from the mk1 eyeball (or equivalent) all the way up to exotic sensor arrays.

in the example of battlemechs, you targeting and tracking system has a variety of sub stats that in part determine what its features are. these include:
sensor options, Vis light, Infarared (thermal), EM (Electromagnetic), Magres (Magnetic Resonance), Seismic, Radar, and others.

as mentioned some sensors will include both active and passive components such as passive ratar receivers, and active radar transmitters.  etc.

then you will have scan arcs.  in the battletechnology article they had 45, 90, 180, and 360 arcs with les robust systems having more limited arcs available.

other aspects include things like number of simultaneous targets primary and secondary, Target assistance Modifier (basically to hit mods both positive and negative), expansion slots, heat threshold, difficulty to repair, number of integrated weapon slots, range modifier, and other attributes.

note all of these features may or may not be relevant in a particular game/scenario, as obviously an one off scenario that does not include repairs won't care about how difficult it is to repair and or obtain replacement parts, wheras a campaign might have that as a primary factor.

as far as target ID and damage ID functions I would say that arguably the computers could make educated analysis based guesses.  IE self damage id means it ties into various sensors mounted throughout the unit, and determines damage reported to the pilot based on that.

target damage id would be more best guess based on observation (unless you somehow hacked their damage ID system) and estimates of what most likely occurred based on observed performance.

[dgorsman]

I'm thinking along the lines of a pilot trying to set up an ambush.   That's actually part of what brought the question to mind.  I'm going to be GMing some games in the near future(players vs me in an RPGish game) and I'm trying to figure out what type of info would be readily available to them thanks to their mechs's sensors.   For the first scenario I wanted to have a mech hiding in some heavy woods waiting for the right time to ambush them.   My dilemma here is is that even possible or would they detect the shut down mech the moment they stepped foot on the map?

We're talking "hidden" vs just "shutdown" then.  Hidden units are assumed to be shutdown, not necessarily cold start but at least hot stand by.  Other steps are also taken, such as squatting in a divot, behind (or inside) a parking garage,  and so on, to minimize physical differences with surrounding terrain.

[RoundTop]

In several novels it speaks of shutting down in water and then waiting for a couple hours for the heat to dissipate., then they couldn't be seen on thermals, and mad and mag scans could be tricked with rocks with a high iron content, and water to obscure visuals

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

   I've been reviewing my notes on fusion reactors and the most difficult part is getting on up to functional temperature. In that light, I'm guessing that a fusion engine is never really fully shut down, because a restart would require a facility or at least another, running 'mech I've read, between 1 megajoule and a gigajoule, which isn't helpful, 1mj would be just batteries, while  1gj you need to be plugged into a wall socket, at least. In one video, the startup of a small tokamak made equipment jump and the vibration could be felt over 100m away.

  The above being said, we have to guess the running temp of a 'mech idling and what we interpret the various heat levels to be, as a 'mech would constantly producing some thermal radiation output and tritium, an isotope of hydrogen.  To contain fusion plasma at up to 100 million celsius, you also need an electromagnetic containment system, so add a strong electromagnetic source.

  Thermal camouflage sheets are popular, they are mylar-thin and pretty much disposable, they contain enough metal in their coating to refract radar, as well as screen a 'mech under cover from thermal detection. I'l be generous and even allow a level of radiation screening.

  It recently occurred to me that even powered down, a 'mech would still make noise. Even motionless, its components would have cooling fans, servos, relays, etc., that could be detected via audio amplification or specialized seismic sensors: I don't mean 'mech sensors, I mean an infantry sensor team with stakes driven into the ground, attached to serious equipment. I mean, how much noise does a fusion reactor in operation make? I've looked at various designs and they vary from noisy to deafening. Perhaps, one day, there will be canon write up of BT fusion technology from an engineer's standpoint and from the view of a pilot.

[Daryk]

I wouldn't expect that at all.  I managed to talk Herb into a minimum size for fusion engines back in the day, but the rule never reached down to the AToW Fusion Recharger, which can't be mounted on BA for "reasons"...

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

Active Sensors

Lidar: A light detection and ranging sensor that uses a laser (light amplification by stimulated emission of radiation) radar to transmit a light pulse and a receiver with sensitive detectors to measure the backscattered or reflected light. Distance to the object is determined by recording the time between transmitted and backscattered pulses and by using the speed of light to calculate the distance traveled. Properly tuned, this device should be able to determine three dimensional attributes of a target, which would be used to identify equipment, such as ‘mechs and their variants, if the data is available.

Primary Radar: An active radio detection and ranging sensor that provides its own source of electromagnetic energy. An active radar sensor, whether airborne or spaceborne, emits microwave radiation in a series of pulses from an antenna. When the energy reaches the target, some of the energy is reflected back toward the sensor.  Search radar is able to render and map surrounding topographical features and determine movement. Targets that reflect more energy appear clearer and sometimes larger.

Secondary Radar: Unlike Primary Radar, Secondary Radar requires the target to carry a corresponding receiver/transmitter to fully function. The operator enters a code, often four digits, then informs the target to transmit that code. The radar queries the target, which responds with the correct code. This is called IFF (Identification, Friend or Foe) and is used to differentiate between hostile and friendly targets. Other features allow targets to be tagged with full information, type, unit, destination, speed readout, direction, and other notes. IFF codes for a unit would be assigned prior to operation, so they would be assigned well before deployment. Other IFF codes include Emergency and No Radio, which would usually appear to all Secondary Radar. 

Ranging Instrument: A device that measures the distance between the instrument and a target object. Radars and altimeters work by determining the time a transmitted pulse (microwaves or light) takes to reflect from a target and return to the instrument. This is how you hit stuff without penalties…

Active Seismic Sensor:   This device would be used to detect, locate and map surface and underground anomalies, including structures, liquids, tunnels, differences in material density. Usually used in search of oil deposits, this device could find and map underground tunnels and bunkers. Like sonar, the device "thumps" the ground with regular pulses that reflect off of high-density objects. On the battlefield, the sensor could be use to locate and pinpoint artillery positions, as well as the movement of equipment.

Magnetic Anomaly Detector (MAD)   A magnetic sensor is an instrument that measures magnetism—either the magnetization of a magnetic material like a ferromagnet, or the direction, strength, or relative change of a magnetic field at a particular location. A compass is a simple type of magnetometer, one that measures the direction of an ambient magnetic field. The problem with the detector is that it assumes every location has a regular magnetic field, as on Terra, in order to work properly. The sensor would have to be re-calibrated on every new planet or moon or rock, proving there is an ambient, electromagnetic field to measure, because the instrument doesn't detect 'Mechs, per se, it detects the way a 'Mech distorts the ambient magnetic field.
In theory, it could detect a fusion engine's containment system and size, as well as gauss weapons, due to their magnetic distortion.

After hours of reading about Nuclear Magnetic Resonance, especially in wide-range spectroscopy, I could see how an Active Probe may work, by the subtle measuring of the materials in the target's composition, from fuel to ammo to power plant. The computer would require and extensive database in order to identify a 'Mech's equipment by mass and molecular composition, but I'm keeping an open mind...


These two are more for Dropships, Satellites and some Aero, for weather:

Scatterometer: A high-frequency microwave radar designed specifically to measure backscattered radiation. Over ocean surfaces, measurements of backscattered radiation in the microwave spectral region can be used to derive maps of surface wind speed and direction.
Sounder: An instrument that measures vertical distribution of precipitation and other atmospheric characteristics such as temperature, humidity, and cloud composition.


Caveat: All the sensors I've examined are available TODAY. I'm just taking current technology and applying them within the BT universe in order to understand how and why they would work, and how they would apply in your game.

Next: ECM and ECCM

[DarkSpade]

I'm starting to think there's no such thing as a mech ambush in the inner sphere and every time its happened in the fiction it's just the "victim" playing along for fun.  xp

[Daryk]

It's generally cheaper to (at least temporarily) counter a given sensor than develop and build the sensor in the first place.  Energy absorbing materials should be available, and active phase cancelling can take care of most.  And chaff (obscurants) also have a long history of use...

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

I'm starting to think there's no such thing as a mech ambush in the inner sphere and every time its happened in the fiction it's just the "victim" playing along for fun.  xp

  Ambushes happen all the time. Often, it's because players have low or no Perception/Sensor skills, or they have no clue how their sensor arrays operate. Not many sensors operate outside the range of some weapons, such as Active Probes.

[The_Caveman]

There are certainly dedicated jamming vehicles/aircraft that we never see in game because they have an operation range of hundreds of kilometers. To say nothing of the ECM capabilities of a fixed facility with its own fusion powerplant. Even a landed DropShip would be able to produce enough ECM to totally scramble radar over a wide area and significantly degrade IR, magnetic, and UV sensors.

Someone looking for a candle in the dark is going to have a hard time if you point a spotlight in their face.

These jamming elements would be just another part of the logistics chain of any serious army. If a Mechwarrior can see more than what his Mk I Eyeballs are telling him, he's probably nowhere near a major battle.

'Mechs have their own fusion plants too of course, and can produce ECCM to cancel out the jamming--although that only works against certain techniques. ECCM does nothing against IR jammers, for example.

TPTB have never quite explained how the dedicated ECM/sensor hardware that you can put on units (Guardian, BAP, etc) differ from basic integrated systems described in fluff, or why those pieces of equipment have such comically short ranges, but it's probably a matter of brute-forcing the problem. Much like the huge radar set on the Su-15 Flagon which had a very short range but was capable of burning through most NATO ECM of its day through sheer power.

[grimlock1]

The wireframe damage model seems to be merely a convenience of the video games.

That might be more plausible than you think.

A mech is walking along and notices that the gyro is having to correct for a bit of left side lean.  Consult with pressure sensors in the feet and position sensors in the ankles. Okay, I'm still walking on firm, flat terrain, but my gait is a bit funky. All the command and read backs for the leg, hip and torso actuators check out.  Left arm reads fine, but the right elbow read back is a bit fast. Almost like there's something missing from the right forearm. Verify the elbow joint goes to the desired angles when commanded.  Run diagnostics on hand actuator, OK.  Run diagnostics on all weapons in the right arm, all green. Everything in the arm checks out but the forearm still moves like it's 800 kilos lighter than it was a moment ago.

Ergo, ~34% of the armor on the right arm is gone.

Still working on a way to detect skeletal damage....

[RoundTop]

That might be more plausible than you think.

A mech is walking along and notices that the gyro is having to correct for a bit of left side lean.  Consult with pressure sensors in the feet and position sensors in the ankles. Okay, I'm still walking on firm, flat terrain, but my gait is a bit funky. All the command and read backs for the leg, hip and torso actuators check out.  Left arm reads fine, but the right elbow read back is a bit fast. Almost like there's something missing from the right forearm. Verify the elbow joint goes to the desired angles when commanded.  Run diagnostics on hand actuator, OK.  Run diagnostics on all weapons in the right arm, all green. Everything in the arm checks out but the forearm still moves like it's 800 kilos lighter than it was a moment ago.

Ergo, ~34% of the armor on the right arm is gone.

Still working on a way to detect skeletal damage....

A bit easier than that.  FF muscles require various power amounts to contract. So power output to muscles compared to rate of rotation in the joints gives you a very quick and easy how much weight was lost.  I would expect the mech's computers to try to compensate automatically within a couple movements.

[dgorsman]

Or the really simple way: a network of sensor (essentially just a fuse, but mechanical rather than thermal) on the underside of the armor panels.  Damage opens that sensor, so indicates a reduction in armor.

Edit: A slightly more tech-y version would be lengths of fibre optic cable.  It's fairly easy to tell where any breaks occur using time domain reflection systems.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I was thinking more of the wireframe damage indicator for targeted enemies, not for the mech you're riding.

[Colt Ward]

I'm starting to think there's no such thing as a mech ambush in the inner sphere and every time its happened in the fiction it's just the "victim" playing along for fun.  xp

 . . . have you ever been part of a infantry or vehicle patrol?  Ambushes frequently happen because they work.  Patrols have tactical doctrines (no one is forever on point, being #1) to avoid ambushes and you practice how to respond to a ambush almost as much b/c they will happen- the ideal is to detect it before stumbling into the killbox.  Pretty sure you can find a FM for squad/platoon leaders discussing it or maybe convoy tactics.

The Crescent Hawks story from the Jihad had a guerrilla Hatchetman on a Blakist occupied world waiting to meet the incoming mercs.  The mech was in the jungle, shut down and covered with a camo/conceal net- besides being a camo net, it also had metalic strips woven into it to break up the lidar/radar outline.  It was positioned to provide overwatch of the typical Blakist patrol route.  I want to say it also had the heat sink outlets facing forward shut down but the ones to the rear were operating, though maybe that was a different story.

Infantry, BA, armor and mechs are going to have one- maybe two- sensor operators on the battlefield during operations so they are more likely to face information overload which means its going to come down to software collating all the various inputs to flag something.  Any sensor method can be defeated in isolation, but it gets more difficult when trying to defeat different methods used in parallel . . . or even the same sensor with different angles.  IIRC the Soviets got very good about defeating overhead imaging from spysats . . . but it was a big late Cold War secret that we would take some pictures at a angle as well.  So you defeat the straight overhead look down by creating a roof  or some other camouflage above but they were able to peak into the side.  Shadows can tell how tall a structure is and give other information- apparently they crunched a lot of numbers to determine that sort of thing.  Remember one of the old Clancy movies, I want to say Patriot Games?  Where he spotted someone at a watched camp was a female and was told her probable cup-size b/c it showed up on camera- to the point with analysis and other sources they could ID the terrorist?  So things CAN be learned if you have multiple sensors & angles, processing power, and time . . . but a single Mechwarrior does not have that on the battlefield.

As far as wireframe schematic . . . well, when I see the red outline in HBS for a mech and do not know what it is- but know class or actual weight- I can figure it out when it fires.  Medium detected with beam and some long range missiles?  Centurion 9-AL  Fast moving medium that fires a single PPC?  Cicada  Slow moving medium, fires a single PPC and five missiles?  Vindicator . . . The computer is also going to use that along with the radar type and other input to determine what you are facing.