Author Topic: Canon info on Clan Wolf and Diamond Shark Proto programs?  (Read 1185 times)

Alan Grant

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Canon info on Clan Wolf and Diamond Shark Proto programs?
« on: 10 December 2024, 09:56:37 »
I've been on a ProtoMech kick lately, so I've been researching that side of things. I've noticed a gap when it comes to information about Clan Wolf and Diamond Shark's ProtoMech programs. I'm looking for sources on their respective protomech programs. What did happen, what they used/tried, stated reasons for abandoning the protomech etc.

I do know that the Shark Bloodname Fowler was designated a ProtoMech Bloodname as of the book Wars of Reaving. So they obviously played around with ProtoMechs at some point.

I can speculate sure, and happy to discuss. But first and foremost I'm wondering what canon tidbits are out there. Because so far I'm not finding much at all.

jklantern

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Re: Canon info on Clan Wolf and Diamond Shark Proto programs?
« Reply #1 on: 10 December 2024, 10:36:38 »
It's been a few years since I've actively looked into this, but DID the Wolves have a proto-program?  I thought they were one of the Clans who basically went, "Nerp."

I remember a Diamond Shark being mentioned specifically in TRO 3075 as a protomech pilot (Notable Pilot for the Basilisk, if memory serves) but I got nothin' beyond that.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Canon info on Clan Wolf and Diamond Shark Proto programs?
« Reply #2 on: 10 December 2024, 11:13:46 »
Pretty sure the Wolf protomech "program" was "nope, not interested."
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Colt Ward

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Re: Canon info on Clan Wolf and Diamond Shark Proto programs?
« Reply #3 on: 10 December 2024, 11:35:54 »
Crusader Wolves did not, Warden Wolves did . . . for some reason.

How is a big question never answered BUT . . . my head canon answered it this way-

Victor came back with Protowarriors rather than leave them on Hunterss- they are the "weapon" after all.  Victor handed them off to Phelan as it was the easiest & safest place to put them- similar culture that would not be a threat.  Wardens got Photos from the Sharks- which IMO, while perhaps not using Photos by the DA, they would still build and sell- mostly because the other outliers on FMU's RATS were laid at the Shark's trading fleet.

This would also explain why they not longer have Protos nor any prof they ever built them.  With the failure to expand the touman
 after the Jihad, the Warden Wolves have had an abundance of potential warriors- more than they gave slots to by canon (see Alexia Wolf, Arturo Wolf, and RecGuides test down pilots) and their lower castes did not grow b/c many joined Mercs or went elsewhere.

I would have preferred they keep their Protos to be different than the Crusaders but it does not quite fit their culture.
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Maelwys

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Re: Canon info on Clan Wolf and Diamond Shark Proto programs?
« Reply #4 on: 10 December 2024, 22:10:36 »
There isn't much out there as far as I can tell. Even the Field Reports and Objectives don't say much about them. Field Manual 3085 states that only Hell's Horses, Ravens and Nova Cat characters can take ProtoMech training (pg 236). Era Report 3145 states that only Ravens and Horses can take ProtoMech training after 3101 (pg 189).

Honestly, it suggests to me that most of the Inner Sphere clans had limited ProtoMech production/units and in the Wars of Reaving and Jihad, and when those units were damaged, they just decided not to spend the resources producing them. Its a mostly unproven technology compared to alot of what the Clans use, and there are definite drawbacks to the units. So when they're trying to decide what to produce/use they're going to be more conservative.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Canon info on Clan Wolf and Diamond Shark Proto programs?
« Reply #5 on: 10 December 2024, 23:51:44 »
Given that the Cats and Wolves-in-Exile were both client states to an Inner Sphere faction, I have to wonder if they might have faced pressure from the Combine and Commonwealth, respectively, to stop bothering spending resources on Protomechs (which their partners didn't want) and devote those resources instead to ground vehicles, battle armor, and mechs.

Also, I wonder if the different nature of warfare in the Inner Sphere meant that the disadvantages of Protomechs outweighed their benefits significantly more than in the Homeworlds.
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Metallgewitter

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Re: Canon info on Clan Wolf and Diamond Shark Proto programs?
« Reply #6 on: 11 December 2024, 06:20:37 »
My best Guess why the Crusader Wolves didn't use it: resource crunch. Remember the Crusader Wolves weren't the powerhouse they were before the war with the Falcons. Vlad managed to rebuild but putting a rather untested component into a still rebuilding touman would probably cost too much. Plus Protomech pilots don't have a long "shelf life" and have high "maintenance Costs". And when your trueborn count is low as Phelan took several sibkos with him you can't waste those on a program you don't have the material for. Better to put a failed / washed out ASF Pilot into a garison Jet so you have at least something for defense. And after 3067 the Wolves got bashed over the head by almost every Clan and their IS Capital got nuked. Even less time to start something completly new.
« Last Edit: 13 December 2024, 04:02:20 by Metallgewitter »
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Canon info on Clan Wolf and Diamond Shark Proto programs?
« Reply #7 on: 11 December 2024, 13:38:20 »
How much did the Wolves even use the Aerospace phenotype?
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Colt Ward

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Re: Canon info on Clan Wolf and Diamond Shark Proto programs?
« Reply #8 on: 11 December 2024, 14:03:15 »
Bears are the only one who did not.  We were introduced to AS Phenotype through Carew.

TBH, the Cats made even less sense having Protos than the Warden Wolves, both would have had to get their Protos through the Sharks.

Wardens were a repository for Jaguars at least, the Cats not so much.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Canon info on Clan Wolf and Diamond Shark Proto programs?
« Reply #9 on: 11 December 2024, 19:50:37 »
Bears are the only one who did not.  We were introduced to AS Phenotype through Carew.

The Bears are the only Clan that doesn't use the phenotype at all, but we don't know how much other Clans actually use them.
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Alan Grant

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Re: Canon info on Clan Wolf and Diamond Shark Proto programs?
« Reply #10 on: 12 December 2024, 10:26:20 »
The Bears are the only Clan that doesn't use the phenotype at all, but we don't know how much other Clans actually use them.

As a percentage of their trueborn pilots. I suppose I can't really argue with your headcanon. So, I'm not going to bother. I'm sure some funky examples to the contrary exist somewhere. I recall the Goliath Scorpion loremaster in FM: WC being described as uncommonly tall for a pilot. Yet even in that description it reads like this person is abnormal.

In creating Clan characters for stories and RPG-style games, I've definitely created some variations on the aero phenotype just because I wanted characters that looked more average human (or I wanted to use a particular real world person as the image for that character and they didn't fit the aero description very well), often fluffed per my non-canon wishes as things like "a warrior from an experimental pilot sibko" that perhaps had some of the aerospace pilot traits but not all of them. But it's all purely my non-canon funzies.

Yet that non-canon fun stuff does also provide some rationale for some pilots to be out there who don't quite fit the phenotype mold.

But as we were discussing the Wolves specifically, we know they used it plenty. Carew aside, in the Clan Wolf Sourcebook there are specific named/described pilots, I believe a named Star Commander and Star Captain described as being of the phenotype. Even if they don't say "phenotype" they describe big heads, big eyes, and slender physiques. They also use phrasing like how that physique is common of "all" or "many" aerospace pilots. It was really through the early Clan Wolf-centric products like the Blood of Kerensky trilogy and the Clan Wolf sourcebook that the idea that Clan pilots looked this way was introduced to the player base.

Circling to the real point, I suspect Metallgetwitter has it right. I think the Crusader Clan had a shortage of bodies. As of FM: CC they were pulling every potential warrior they could find from anywhere. They were giving failed Trueborns of any age another chance against garrison-level opponents to rejoin the touman. They were drafting members of the lower castes who showed aptitude. In the novel that depicts Vlad Ward becoming the Khan of a resurrected Clan Wolf, it talks about him pulling warriors from non-warrior duties like sibko instructors, and how that would be problematic in some ways, but he just needed bodies right now to rebuild the Clan's touman before another Clan decided they were easy prey.

That's the explanation that makes the most sense to me and fits the evidence. Most-to-all of the Clans were using failed aerospace pilot phenotype individuals as their first ProtoMech pilots. They had an excess of bodies and they used them for that, in the process that represented that individual's opportunity to remain in or return to the warrior caste. The Crusader Wolves had no such excess. Anyone that fit that description that had any warrior aptitude at all was already being sucked back into the touman already. Excess bodies was a luxury Clan Wolf didn't have.

That thought was already floating around my mind when I started this thread. But I wanted to see if anything canon existed on the subject.
« Last Edit: 12 December 2024, 10:40:16 by Alan Grant »

Cannonshop

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Re: Canon info on Clan Wolf and Diamond Shark Proto programs?
« Reply #11 on: 13 December 2024, 19:02:47 »
As a percentage of their trueborn pilots. I suppose I can't really argue with your headcanon. So, I'm not going to bother. I'm sure some funky examples to the contrary exist somewhere [snip].

"invading Clans" sourcebook specifically mentions that Clan Ghost Bear doesn't have Aeropilot Phenotypes.  IIRC it's also mentioned in passing in the entry on the Kirghiz omnifighter, but I could be mistaken there.

also Mechwarrior 2nd Edition mentions something on the subject IIRC.  The topic was, I believe, dropped in later publications.
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Metallgewitter

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Re: Canon info on Clan Wolf and Diamond Shark Proto programs?
« Reply #12 on: 14 December 2024, 07:39:24 »
That is kind of interesting. So if the Bears don't have a dedicated ASF pilot phenotype then what genes do they use for breeding? Mixing infantry and Mechwarriors? Or do they use a Mechwarrior phenotype as template and then just infuse some benefical traits / remove the "useless" ones?
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Alan Grant

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Re: Canon info on Clan Wolf and Diamond Shark Proto programs?
« Reply #13 on: 14 December 2024, 07:58:01 »
Short answer: The Bears use the mechwarrior phenotype as the starting point, they do maintain aerospace bloodlines but their trueborn pilots bred for that role don't look notably different from mechwarriors. The Bears care a lot about strength and stamina and the aero phenotype doesn't emphasize that. They probably do put a few traits into their aero bloodlines, the ones that don't compromise strength and stamina. So, the differences are likely very subtle.

Long Answer:

FM: Warden Clans in the Ghost Bear section covers this. It says most Clan pilots are noticeably different from mechwarriors and describes the aero phenotype.

It says the Bears, always slow to adopt new concepts, didn't adopt the phenotype. They thought the benefits weren't properly offset by the losses (physical strength, stamina). In the book Warriors of Kerensky (WoK) it adds that the Bears also didn't do this because the resulting pilots of the aero phenotype made for poor-hand-to-hand combatants.

That's important because if you read the Ghost Bear training section of FM: WC. It talks about how their training emphasizes the physical, and that all their cadets (even aerospace pilots, it specifically calls out) receive extensive personal combat training.

FM: WC says the Bears do maintain aerospace bloodlines, but warriors created from that stock aren't notably different from mechwarriors. WoK says the Bears use what the other Clans would regard as mechwarrior stock for their pilots.

Without having the RPG book around, I believe creating a pilot trueborn character (following RPG rules) for the Bears you basically use the mechwarrior as the baseline and just make a couple changes to reflect the fact that it's a pilot instead. The Bears get their own character creation rules when it comes to pilots. I do recall that much, but I don't know the rest.

FM: WC notes that the other Clans were quite critical of the Bears not accepting the new breed and that the Bears' aerospace arm had a "second-rate" reputation among the Clans because of this. But it adds the Bears feel vindicated because Inner Sphere pilots proved just as capable as their Clan counterparts. It adds that Khan Bjorn Jorgensson is one of the finest pilots flying, in spite of being born a mechwarrior, failing his first Trial of Position and retraining as a pilot, scoring 3 kills "with flair" in his second Trial of Position.
« Last Edit: 14 December 2024, 08:07:53 by Alan Grant »