Author Topic: Alpha Strike: A Quick-Playing Tactical Miniatures Game  (Read 222345 times)

Paul

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Re: Alpha Strike (upcoming supplemental rulebook)
« Reply #30 on: 04 April 2013, 12:23:06 »
but I would like to know what advantage there is to hexmaps over terrain.

As someone who enjoys playing with both:

Hexmap pro:
- It's pretty quick and easy to set up the playing area, especially if you're fairly familiar with your hexmaps.
- You're not adjusting terrain later (kind of a common problem when you use hexgrid terrain; the hill shifts a bit as minis are moved across it, and suddenly during movement you find it just a bit off.
- It has less ambiguity with regards to such things as LOS, and terrain cover/costs. Emphasis on "less", some hex maps aren't labelled that well, and LOS can still be tricky and arbitrary if the line skirts a few hexes on the border.
- There's a little less maintenance if you like using trees, and have to juggle those around when a 'Mech enters the patch.
- You don't get 'free' movement when a mini is picked up and returned for whatever reason. IE, someone wants to admire the paintjob and places it 0.25 inch too far to the left when he returns it. Suddenly LOS works differently. A more common problem with the clickdials given how often you pick those guys up.
- Now with hexpacks, you can really customize hexmap terrain (used to be a con as you couldn't)
- You can handdraw a map on the back for specific scenarios. I've done that a few times.
- Most rules are hex based, so stuff like clearing woods isn't ambiguous. Working with buildings seems very daunting in mini rules.

Hexmap cons:
- It just doesn't look as good as terrain. I'm ignoring crap quality terrain in that statement.
- It's a little harder to intuitively estimate tactics; the 3D aspect really helps.
- No hexmap based shenanigans, like the freeway that exists where maps meet (always clear level 0 terrain) or rivers that evaporate at the border.
- Much less likely to look like a coherent whole if you use an eclectic set of terrain. IE, std map, moon terrain and the canyons because you wanted some increasingly rough terrain, or the aftermath of orbital bombardment. Even just the background color mismatch is jarring.
- It gets repetitive. Some maps, you know exactly where some of the good hexes are (1205 on the standard map, what's happening today? How's the missus?), and for most kinds of play, you tend to find yourself using the same maps over and over. For some people, that's not a downside.


So, either style of play has it's place, I think. I tend to favor hex-based or hex-gridded terrain, but I think playing with full miniatures rules can be really cool also.

Paul
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Atlas3060

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Re: Alpha Strike (upcoming supplemental rulebook)
« Reply #31 on: 04 April 2013, 12:23:20 »
Lorcan brings up the main points, but another is the scale of a mini.
With miniatures like Battletech's we've had scale creep go up and down, so a Timberwolf from an older time won't mesh with the newer resculpts. The old school Battlemasters are dwarfed by the Reseen version. So things like LOS will be argued and such which detract from the gaming experience.

I tend to use the 2" to 1 hex ratio in reverse for a lot of Quick Strike related rules for my hexed games and overall it works rather well.

Edit:
Also Paul's list is rather nice.
My group used to play with gridded terrain and that's a great compromise in my opinion. You can still enjoy the pretty things, but there's a clear cut ruling on whether you clip that wooded hex or not.
« Last Edit: 04 April 2013, 12:28:44 by Atlas3060 »
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Re: Alpha Strike (upcoming supplemental rulebook)
« Reply #32 on: 04 April 2013, 12:33:26 »
I really see the LOS vs. scale issues, no pun intended. Heavy Gear had some issues with miniature size when I played it; leaving light hover tanks off their flight bases became a very tempting way to decrease their profile. Looking at BT minis I can see the Maelstrom as a potential problem with its fairly low profile relative to other 75 ton 'Mechs. No doubt a great many other examples exist as well.
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MadCapellan

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Re: Alpha Strike (upcoming supplemental rulebook)
« Reply #33 on: 04 April 2013, 12:33:56 »
As someone who only plays miniatures rules I'd like to know: why is hex support so important? This isn't meant to start an argument between proponents of the two systems or derail the thread but I would like to know what advantage there is to hexmaps over terrain.

Every game I've ever played in that relies on "miniatures rules", "true LOS", or measuring invariably results in so much arguing over LOS, how far 60° is, and if the target model is just within or just over short range, that it completely kills the game for me, and tends to make winners of the people more argumentative than the others, not those with better tactics. I'd rather play a game where we can get through the firing phase without three grown men whipping out laser pointers and trying to draw a bead on one mini from just above another. 

Hexes leave little ambiguity.  Range 6 is 6 hexes, a turn is one hexside, and specific rules govern LOS. I don't play tabletop gamesto argue with people. I play them because I enjoy strategy.  It's impossible to truly develop strategy when  every move and action is so ambiguous that the commitee of all players present has to make a ruling by consensus on every...single...thing

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Re: Alpha Strike (upcoming supplemental rulebook)
« Reply #34 on: 04 April 2013, 12:41:49 »
Every game I've ever played in that relies on "miniatures rules", "true LOS", or measuring invariably results in so much arguing over LOS, how far 60° is, and if the target model is just within or just over short range, that it completely kills the game for me, and tends to make winners of the people more argumentative than the others, not those with better tactics. I'd rather play a game where we can get through the firing phase without three grown men whipping out laser pointers and trying to draw a bead on one mini from just above another. 

Hexes leave little ambiguity.  Range 6 is 6 hexes, a turn is one hexside, and specific rules govern LOS. I don't play tabletop gamesto argue with people. I play them because I enjoy strategy.  It's impossible to truly develop strategy when  every move and action is so ambiguous that the commitee of all players present has to make a ruling by consensus on every...single...thing

I agree with absolutely everything you just wrote. MadCapellan for president 2016!!
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Re: Alpha Strike (upcoming supplemental rulebook)
« Reply #35 on: 04 April 2013, 12:42:43 »
I hate to say this but it sounds like some folks play with some real pieces of work  :-\

I guess I never realized how good I have it.
Light Assault Group - An Orwellian appelation applied by the Draconis Combine to troops haphazardly equipped with whatever expendable equipment was lying around the maintenance yard, for the purpose of throwing their lives away for the greater glory of the Dragon, see also Human Bombs.

Atlas3060

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Re: Alpha Strike (upcoming supplemental rulebook)
« Reply #36 on: 04 April 2013, 12:47:02 »
Despite the differences either way are good choices to play this gaming universe.
Miniature gamers haven't been supported well in my opinion when you look at all the products in the line going back to the FASA days.
This product will be a nice gaming point I hope.
All I'll ever expect from it for a hex player is a chapter or section that just gives us the proper values for range and such.

I do know that this scale is perfect for my group.
It is fast, fun, and we can always go back to the Total Warfare scale if we want detail.
So now we can really hook in the older players and the newbies! *evil laughter*

I hate to say this but it sounds like some folks play with some real pieces of work  :-\

I guess I never realized how good I have it.
You probably have been very blessed.  :)
Though from how it sounds with your luck, I wouldn't mind trying miniature rules with your group.  This coming from a flag waving hex player. O0

Either way this is a nice time for the mini gamers to get the spotlight a bit.
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Re: Alpha Strike (upcoming supplemental rulebook)
« Reply #37 on: 04 April 2013, 12:53:52 »
Also depends on your crowd.... the guys i used to play Warmachine and 40K with do just fine with minimual arguing over distance and what not, and there's zero hex support options for either game.  Sure there's a few bad apples as far as players go, but by and large my games were smooth.


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Re: Alpha Strike (upcoming supplemental rulebook)
« Reply #38 on: 04 April 2013, 12:54:37 »
Also portability is a very nice plus to the hex maps. I tend to keep my record sheets, maps, and other needed items to game in a bag in my truck so if I get even a whiff of having a chance to play if I'm visiting friends or at the gf's for the weekend all I need to do is toss (figuratively) my case of mini's in my truck and I'm good to go for a game if the chance comes up. I was able to get a chance to play a game and introduce someone new to the game this weekend at a family gathering because of the portability of the map sheets.

MadCapellan

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Re: Alpha Strike (upcoming supplemental rulebook)
« Reply #39 on: 04 April 2013, 12:59:53 »
I hate to say this but it sounds like some folks play with some real pieces of work  :-\

I don't know that there's anything wrong with most of the players I play with, but a lot of us do play this game with the intent to do our bests and hopefully attain victory, as opposed to just casually toss dice and blow stuff up. Unfortunately, the ambiguity of miniatures rules are such that one person's interpretation of the rules varies wildly from another's.  Thus, a player may feel that another player is taking excessive liberties with the ambiguities of the rules, and endeavor to correct this behavior, which results in friction.

While this can happen in any sort of competitive game, there are so many ambiguities in miniatures rules that this social battle of wills often completely takes over the game, dragging down every movement and killing any enjoyment there was to have.

Having my map be pretty just isn't worth the hassle.

MadCapellan

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Re: Alpha Strike (upcoming supplemental rulebook)
« Reply #40 on: 04 April 2013, 13:12:43 »
Also depends on your crowd.... the guys i used to play Warmachine and 40K with do just fine with minimual arguing over distance and what not, and there's zero hex support options for either game.  Sure there's a few bad apples as far as players go, but by and large my games were smooth.

To be fair, the less detail the games have, the less this is a problem. I've never played Warmachine, but Warhammer 40K has fewer problems with this because of fewer range-brackets, simplified rules for moving through terrain, and no additional costs for turning. Other, higher detail games such as Heavy Gear Blitz and Dystopian Wars tend to suffer from this more than others.

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Re: Alpha Strike (upcoming supplemental rulebook)
« Reply #41 on: 04 April 2013, 13:15:27 »
Warmachine has fairly simple, but hard to misinterpret rules for cover.
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Re: Alpha Strike (upcoming supplemental rulebook)
« Reply #42 on: 04 April 2013, 13:35:18 »
To be fair, the less detail the games have, the less this is a problem. I've never played Warmachine, but Warhammer 40K has fewer problems with this because of fewer range-brackets, simplified rules for moving through terrain, and no additional costs for turning. Other, higher detail games such as Heavy Gear Blitz and Dystopian Wars tend to suffer from this more than others.

I've never cared for the CBT miniature rules (gasp right?) as the movement charges for turning and what not can be a bit odd and problamatic.  I have no problem with QS/AS and have felt the games I've played of that flowed pretty well.

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Re: Alpha Strike (upcoming supplemental rulebook)
« Reply #43 on: 04 April 2013, 13:50:32 »
I prefer minis with terrain - cause I'm visual and the 3d is cool.  But I like maps because setup is taste and easy, cheaper, and easier to distinguish terrain.

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Re: Alpha Strike (upcoming supplemental rulebook)
« Reply #44 on: 04 April 2013, 13:54:52 »
Hexed terrain, baby... ^-^
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Re: Alpha Strike (upcoming supplemental rulebook)
« Reply #45 on: 04 April 2013, 13:57:11 »
Hexed terrain, baby... ^-^

Absolutely ideal, in my opinion.  O0

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Re: Alpha Strike (upcoming supplemental rulebook)
« Reply #46 on: 04 April 2013, 14:06:42 »
I'll stick with a pretty tabletop  ;)

Back on topic: I wonder how much, if at all, the QS rules will vary from what we see in AS.
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Re: Alpha Strike (upcoming supplemental rulebook)
« Reply #47 on: 04 April 2013, 14:26:26 »
Absolutely ideal, in my opinion.  O0

My group may have invested in enough Heroscape terrain to cover a 6x4 table
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Re: Alpha Strike (upcoming supplemental rulebook)
« Reply #48 on: 04 April 2013, 23:12:09 »
Nerroth - can I copy your post for my blog?  I will give you credit and link back to this posting.

I'm not sure if I'm the right person to be offering credit for (or asking permission from); I simply quoted what DarkISI had recorded from last month's BattleChat conversations.


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Re: Alpha Strike (upcoming supplemental rulebook)
« Reply #49 on: 05 April 2013, 07:50:42 »
One thing I remember from MWDA games, the basic rulers that came with the game tended to stretch some with repeated use, so you use your ruler to measure out a distance of 12.25" and the other person with a well-used ruler measures out the distance as 12". Then he picks up his unit to move it and as soon as it's up you've lost it's location and it's a he said/he said. After time you get used to making your move, measuring it out and telling the other person, "I'm moving to be at 12.25" from your unit" and have them acknowledge it just to be safe.

And while most groups playing in someone's basement may be able to get along and exclude anyone who's too much trouble, for the folks playing in a store it's a lot harder to exclude folks.
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Re: Alpha Strike (upcoming supplemental rulebook)
« Reply #50 on: 05 April 2013, 08:51:23 »
Agree with most of what Paul said.  I've used miniature/terrain Quick-Strike rules because I wanted to play using the store's terrain pieces.  The pieces they have for use in store at Gamer's Armory are gorgeous.  We have learned to automatically check out loud to confirm most measurements. 
As a ref/judge though, it gets on my nerves to have a constant steam of "this is just inside medium, right?".  Movement is usually safer, unless it's a complicated move ("I can fit between these two enemy 'mechs in order to shoot this guy in the rear?").  I have come to really appreciate Quick-Strike's all purpose range bands when using terrain rather than hexes.  Sweep hand across table, "anything past here is long range, any questions? No? Start firing then." 

 
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Re: Alpha Strike (upcoming supplemental rulebook)
« Reply #51 on: 05 April 2013, 09:01:29 »
Hexed terrain, baby... ^-^

I'd agree with that wholeheartedly (as you well know Weirdo)


I just want to see support for both hexed and non-hexed play for QS out of this book.  Much rather be inclusive than exclusive...
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Re: Alpha Strike (upcoming supplemental rulebook)
« Reply #52 on: 07 April 2013, 07:44:53 »
I'd agree with that wholeheartedly (as you well know Weirdo)


I just want to see support for both hexed and non-hexed play for QS out of this book.  Much rather be inclusive than exclusive...
Agreed, but hex support for QS could probably fit as paragraph at the beginning of the book. All you need is a hex to inches ratio and an explanation of how that relates to movement costs and LOS if it's wonky (which it probably wouldn't be.
I mean, it's not like once you having something in low Earth orbit you can stick a gassy astronaut on the outside after Chili Night and fart it anywhere in the solar system.

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Re: Alpha Strike (upcoming supplemental rulebook)
« Reply #53 on: 07 April 2013, 10:14:44 »
It takes more than that. You need rules for stacking and AE blast radii and infantry transport, among others.
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Re: Alpha Strike (upcoming supplemental rulebook)
« Reply #54 on: 07 April 2013, 21:00:30 »
It takes more than that. You need rules for stacking and AE blast radii and infantry transport, among others.
I was sure I was missing something, just not sure what. Either way, you're still looking at a short chapter. It's not like they're 'rules' so much as conversions of the mini rules.
I mean, it's not like once you having something in low Earth orbit you can stick a gassy astronaut on the outside after Chili Night and fart it anywhere in the solar system.

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Re: Alpha Strike (upcoming supplemental rulebook)
« Reply #55 on: 07 April 2013, 21:55:37 »
Perhaps. Just remember that almost everything would need such a conversion. If minis players can do something in QS/AS, hex players should be able to do it as well.
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Re: Alpha Strike (upcoming supplemental rulebook)
« Reply #56 on: 08 April 2013, 00:10:09 »
Perhaps. Just remember that almost everything would need such a conversion. If minis players can do something in QS/AS, hex players should be able to do it as well.
Well, right, but... Movement distance, movement cost, and weapon distance should all be handled by a single ratio, right? Am I missing something?
I mean, it's not like once you having something in low Earth orbit you can stick a gassy astronaut on the outside after Chili Night and fart it anywhere in the solar system.

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Re: Alpha Strike (upcoming supplemental rulebook)
« Reply #57 on: 08 April 2013, 00:12:44 »
Those three, sure.
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Re: Alpha Strike (upcoming supplemental rulebook)
« Reply #58 on: 08 April 2013, 00:14:37 »
Those three, sure.
But aren't stacking and AE blast radii handled the same? And wouldn't infantry transport be basically the same? I guess I'm confused because the few times I've played QS, I've played it on a hex map just using the single conversion table they give. Hence why I'm confused.
I mean, it's not like once you having something in low Earth orbit you can stick a gassy astronaut on the outside after Chili Night and fart it anywhere in the solar system.

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Re: Alpha Strike (upcoming supplemental rulebook)
« Reply #59 on: 08 April 2013, 00:38:14 »
Quick Strike is Battleforce with a few optional rules, converted to hexless play, with a few tweaks to better suit hexless play. To play QS on hexes, once again you start with BF, add in the optional rules and...done. It's not a big deal, and yes hexed rules will also be in there.
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