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BattleTech Player Boards => Fan Articles => Topic started by: jymset on 08 May 2011, 14:28:36
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Originally posted on July 3rd, 2009. One or two punctuation changes, and the addition of Configuration U. A link to my Gargoyle article will go up once I have reposted that one.
This is jymset of the Falcon Watch. Today we will have a look at the Hell's Horses' newest entry into the most crowded Omni weight class – the Balius of TRO: 3075.
From the moment one opens that manual to pages 142-143, attention is drawn to a few exceptional design choices. It is the first Omni-Quad-'Mech and it is the first totem-OmniMech. While the former choice is one long overdue in view of the successes that have been achieved by quads in the last two decades, the latter choice opens a totally new perspective on the purpose of the totem-‘Mech.
In the past, the handful of totem-'Mechs had a function that nestled between garrison and ceremonial duty. The Horses' own aborted first attempt at a totem-'Mech, the quad Thunder Stallion fulfils the fire support role, one where even less glory is found. Could it be that this may have been the true motive to abort the first attempt? At any rate, the totem-'Mech as a "class" was designed to strengthen the esprit de corps of its parent Clan.
Everything about the Balius, its OmniMech status, its high manufacturing standards and its deployment suggest an expansion of this doctrine. Of course it still is a focal point of pride for its own Clan; however, this command OmniMech was also very much designed as an avatar that will be instantly visible and recognisable during the current aggressive expansionist warfare against other Clans which the Hell’s Horses are pursuing.
And on face surface, the totem aspect of the design was achieved very successfully. The four hoofed legs instantly enforce equine character and the sensor array even carries a horse mask. It is possible that this is a reason why in naïve aesthetic judgement, most observers will voice a dislike of the Balius: the other totem-'Mechs achieve their features by idiosyncratic arrangement of vents, canopy, etc; the Balius is the only one to feature a true mask, more akin to a ProtoMech. At the same time, the Balius is not devoid of very prominent air intakes on the "flanks", turret-like gun mounts and further sensors on its back. There is a very decided discrepancy of design aesthetics between the two groups of components.
On top of all that, two further flaws seem inexcusable to this spectator: the rear gun’s mounting is indeed on an unfortunate spot of this design (given its anatomical faithfulness to a horse) – this has been commented on in abundance since the release of the TRO. The other flaw is only obvious on further inspection: a head-mounted fixed flamer is a very stylish addition to a life-like design; it would even justify the exposed equine head (the canopy itself is at the front of the ‘Mech, not at the top of its “headâ€). However, the flamer is tucked under the body at the front of the quad, both destroying the arguably elegant lines of the design, and decidedly labelling the head as nothing but questionable ornament.
I have tried to put aesthetics into word, something that is both subjective and futile. I felt it necessary as two simple truths cannot be debated: the Balius is a striking ‘Mech; the Balius has been met with great antagonism because of its looks.
All of the above may prove a discussion point, but it does not explain the actual design choices made by the Technician Caste, under tutelage of saKhan Tanya DeLaurel, no less! In fact, as one starts examining the stats of the design, a sinking feeling sets in: in view of an entry into a weight class with abundant alternatives (one of which, the Hellbringer [Loki] was even designed by the Hell’s Horses!), a lot of questionable design choices were made.
An important factor is its speed. The Linebacker has proven that a 6/9 65-tonner, packing an insane 390 XL engine is not a way to success. The pod space is bound to be so limited that the only difference in comparison to a design of half its weight but equal speed and almost equal weapon capacities are a few tons of armour.
On the other hand, the speed suits a quad well – in terms of ground speed, this truly is the fastest heavy Clan OmniMech that exists.
At least the Balius wisely plays its strengths and mounts more armour than any of its 65-ton contemporaries. Protection could have been mini-maxed to slightly greater efficiency (increasing the side torsos by 1 point of armour would allow for the hypothetical survival of 3 Gauss or PPC hits), but the protection is rock-solid, on par with designs 10 tons heavier.
As speed and armour protection are great, it comes as no surprise that the Balius suffers horribly in the weaponry department. 20 tons pod space with 10 fixed double heat sinks on a well-protected 6/9 chassis instantly let the Stormcrow seem superior. Then again, in my article]Gargoyle [Man o' War] article (http://Gargoyle [Man o' War) I argued for a mediocre chassis being saved by great configurations. Alas, I do not feel that the Balius supplies us with a single one of those.
Primary Configuration – 2 ERLL, 2 MPL, 2 rear mounted MPL, 4 DHS. The primary configuration of the Balius is both the most balanced and possibly the most undergunned configuration. This base model illustrates the severe problems the Balius faces. In order to maximise its very limited pod capacity, light energy weapons are chosen. These completely overtax the design’s limited heat dissipation capacity, necessitating the addition of extra sinks, thereby cancelling its weight savings. All in all, this thing mounts 16 tons of real weapons, but 25% of that weight faces the rear, leaving 12 tons of weapons pointing to the front. Realistically, any but the very lightest of Clan OmniMechs can equal that firepower.
Configuration A – HAG20 (18), ERLL, ERML, 2 rear mounted ERML. I feel that the HAG is anything but an ideal weapon for this particular design. It does result in decent all-up firepower, but lacks a concentrated punch. One positive aspect of the ‘Mech is that it only devotes 2 tons to rear firing weaponry – still 10%. Can you imagine a Dire Wolf with 5 tons of rear-mounted equipment?
Configuration B – 2 ERLL, 8 HSL, rear mounted LPL, 2 DHS. But speaking of aforementioned example, the Balius B goes one better by mounting a 6-ton gun in its rear. Yes, the biggest gun on this ‘Mech is sticking out of the horsie's ***. The front-mounted weaponry equals the Prime’s 12 tons, but is actually arranged in classic Succession-War-Era bracket firing mode. How crazy is this? Because, you know, 12 tons are definitely too much to be handled by a heavy ‘Mech… Despite an obvious method to the madness, 2 ER large lasers are not worthy of a heavy ‘Mech and the heavy small laser yet remains the worst weapon in the Clan arsenal. Without the ingestion of half a dozen Fusiliers, I cannot evaluate which is more humorous: the fact that this is clearly a joke of a configuration or the fact that it nevertheless equals the ranged firepower of the Prime.
<After being reprimanded by his superior, jymset of the Falcon Watch returns to respectful language as appropriate to a warrior of the most honourable Clan.>
Configuration C – 2 ATM9 (28), 2 ERML, 2 rear mounted MPL. This configuration can be summed up very quickly: A) in the ATMs lies its strength. They are very good weaponry and give the design a punch more respectable than found on the other configurations. B) nevertheless, this is a weaponry appropriate for a light-medium ‘Mech.
Configuration D – ERPPC, 4 ERML, 2 rear mounted MPL, 6 jump jets. This one is the most terrible Balius; having said that, it is also the best Balius.- It is a ‘Mech that completely disregards heat management, uses weapon brackets without regard to range- or heat-brackets, and manages to mount a truly laughable 10 tons of front-mounted weapons.
- It also jumps, making it a truly monstrous heavy skirmisher, it is the only configuration to mount a decapitation weapon, it uses very solid back-up weapons.
More than any other configuration this one shows that while impressive, the idea of a fighting super-scout is a deeply flawed one. In terms of weaponry, the very same could easily be replicated on a design 10-20 tons lighter, leaving nothing but a dubious increase in survivability.
2011: Configuration U - ERLL, 4 SRT6 (60), ECM, 5 UMU. With this configuration, covered in the tech supplement for the 3085 TRO [aka RS: 3085 ONN], the Balius joins the ranks of the few OmniMechs which feature unusual environment variants. In this case, the Balius is refitted for underwater combat. To be kind, the Balius U does its job very well - it is more nimble than the vast majority of all existing 'Mechs, it features weaponry that is realistically able to one-strike kill any non-HarJel equipped units and the inclusion of ECM firmly roots it in a Jihad environment. It comes as no surprise that its limited pod space precludes the use of HarJel itself, as well as limiting the above-water weaponry to a token ERLL. This insert thus fits snugly, because...
Make no mistake about it – this OmniMech's weaponry is anemic. Strangely enough, the two other worst offenders of the heavy OmniMechs are also found in that weight class. The Linebacker equals the Balius’ speed, but with its fixed heat sinks it does have more flexibility. It also has 4-5 very usable configurations. [This is where jymset starts thinking about following up his smart-armour-spiel with a smart-usage-of-podspace article… 2011 addition: thus far, it hasn't happened... :-[ ] The Crossbow is a budget OmniMech if there ever was one and very cleverly relies on missiles which are undoubtedly the best weapons to use for a ‘Mech with both limited podspace and heat dissipation. Yes, three of the Linebacker’s good variants are missile-based, also.
The Balius' configurations range from the terrible to the underwhelming; it only fields one missile-based configuration and it is a testament to the ATM's intrinsic value that I rate it the highest of the lot. But again: anything from a Kit Fox [Uller] upwards could achieve the same offensive results. This is a terrible waste.
On top of that truism, I have to also comment a discrepancy of design philosophies Design philosophies clash – why so fast and then a protected rear? The former maximises a potential strength of the quad chassis. The latter minimises a definite weakness of it. But on a design that is so very much in dire need of extra weight, the combination of both seems very foolhardy.
The Balius is currently fielded as a dedicated command 'Mech. It originally met with scepticism that was swayed only by saKhan DeLaurel demonstrating its effectiveness against the Wolves and Ice Hellions. It is not in my place to comment about the Hellions’, and in lesser parts Wolves’ penchant for various lighter designs; it is also not in my place to speculate about a possible return of DeLaurel to her original ‘Mech. One warning is enough for this warrior.
The Balius is still a rare sight. I feel that this OmniMech is less than the sum of its part (as opposed to, say, the Gargoyle). I know that at least one local Nova Cat warrior feels differently. Let this be the place for contrary opinions!
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I like the 'Mech despite its weakness. For a quad, it having rear mount weapon helps it from getting in trouble. Makes me wonder what Inner Sphere Quad OmniMech what would be like.
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The Balius is reserved for command 'Mechs for two reasons. First, it's very rare and was, for a while, hand built. Second, in the Clans, Asskicking Equals Authority (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AsskickingEqualsAuthority), so the commanders are theoretically the most likely place to find pilots who can overcome the weaknesses of the type.
The reason the design keeps going "this is weaponry for a light or medium 'Mech" is because it literally has the podspace of a light or medium 'Mech. The Cougar has almost as much space and usually uses it more intelligently while the Stormcrow has almost as much armor, two more tons of podspace, a hell of a lot more room to go hog wild with freezers if it needs to, and still has better configurations. Of the configurations here, the Prime and B are the winners of the lot. The C would be a lot more useful with HMLs, which have enough reach to leave you with at least notional flexibility in employing them.
I like the 'Mech despite its weakness. For a quad, it having rear mount weapon helps it from getting in trouble. Makes me wonder what Inner Sphere Quad OmniMech what would be like.
It depends on what they're actually doing, but in general the loss of crits and tonnage (because you can't burn crits for tonnage as readily) from using Inner Sphere hardware is going to make being a quad a much larger headache overall. An Inner Sphere Balius would be an incredibly bad idea. To the extent the Balius gets away with anything, it gets away with it because it can rely on more compact, lighter Clantech to keep it from being delivered to a glue factory somewhere. (Well, being delivered as quickly, at any rate.) An OmniXanthos built like a Hauptmann, on the other hand, could work.
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why yes, the balius is awesome 8)
thanks for putting this back up jymset :)
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Possibly the mech I despise the most. Anyone that wants to use it, more power to you: you can use my share of them. It has every strike against it. Its ugly, its a quad, its mini isn't that great, it has no standout configs. Worse, its redundant! The Stormcrow fills the role, Jihad factory destruction and CHH move to the IS or not. It makes the Linebacker look competent! Its not even the first quad totem within the Horses!
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Its hard to argue with Ian's points. The Balius is a very problematic mech. Just being a quad is a strike against most modern mechs, since pod space is so important to mount modern light weight technologies. But, being a quad tends also to mean more speed, to help compensate for the lack of the torso twist and arm swing, which eats into the already limited pod space even more.
And of course, as the Linebacker has already shown us, even a mech that wants to be good struggles to do so as a 6/9 65 tonner.
That said, some of the time a really optomum mech is not what you're looking for. Sometimes you want a mech that just oozes style, that's so bad that no one that didn't have some other motive would use it, that is, if not powerful, fundementaly cool. I think that the Balius is such a mech. I don't mind the looks, and I love the idea of a quad omni as the Horse totem.
Its not totaly unusable, though it is quite a challange. Many of the veriants rely on the ER LL, which is not such a bad move, since at maximum range the benifit of your speed (and side step) is maximized in hitting sweet spots, while your quad blind spot is minimized. As a resualt, you can play like a very skitish Stormcrow Prime, which isn't as bad a thing as I think it probably seems.
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Great article! I think you just sold me on buying a Balius!! I have been toying with the idea for a while. My wife is a horse nut I have four in my front yard at the moment. I tend to like running the inherently flawed designs it makes games more interesting. Thank you!
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Great article! I think you just sold me on buying a Balius!! I have been toying with the idea for a while. My wife is a horse nut I have four in my front yard at the moment. I tend to like running the inherently flawed designs it makes games more interesting. Thank you!
:o that was... unexpected...
And this from the person going by the name of the singularly best 3025 'Mech!!
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Its not totaly unusable, though it is quite a challange. Many of the veriants rely on the ER LL, which is not such a bad move, since at maximum range the benifit of your speed (and side step) is maximized in hitting sweet spots, while your quad blind spot is minimized. As a resualt, you can play like a very skitish Stormcrow Prime, which isn't as bad a thing as I think it probably seems.
All the variants have at least one long range weapon (2xERLL on the Prime, ERLL & HAG20 on the A, 2xERLL & LPL-rear on the B, 2xATM9 on the C, ERPPC on the D, and ERLL on the U) and the C is the only one I would be hesitant to use. The rest of above water variants give you a fair amount of long range firepower, which helps negate the lack of arm arcs and the lack of torso twisting. Plus twin ERLL, an ERLL & a HAG20, or an ERPPC are nothing to ignore.
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Until the Balius, we didn't have a quad omni. In many ways, this mech illustrates why.
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As one of those responsible, I thought it might be entertaining to react.
(Probably not entertaining to me... ;) )
Not every design officially made is intended to be good. Some outright suck. Sometimes, that's an accident. Errors happen. And occasionally, rules changes are to blame.
But sometimes, the inefficiencies are intentional.
That's *kind of* the story behind the Ballius.
The intent for the totem Horse 'Mech was to create a quad that resolved or dealt with some of the weaknesses of a quad. The prime weakness of a quad is lack of crit space. That hurts a bit more in high tech designs.
The secondary weakness is lack of torso-twist.
Everything else is just peachy.
Now, from a Clan perspective, dueling-competence is a key design philosophy. Slow, plodding quads don't really work in that regard. The only way to make a quad a good duelist is either turrets (unavailable when created) or speed.
So, speed it was.
Why 6/9 on a 65 tonner? For the same tonnage, I could've used a standard 325, and basically taken the Crossbow route.
Which is exactly why I didn't.
Why not a 5/8 XL? Because there were enough 5/8 XL engined 65 tonners.
And 4/6 was too slow.
Also for a third reason, more on that below.
A second problem was that the massive engine basically tagteamed with the limited crit space, making massive weapons impractical. 325XL would have mitigated the former, and I could've elected to ditch Ferro or even Endo and come out ahead, tonnage-wise. But as indicated, the proliferation of 5/8 65 tonners was a strong reason not to take that course.
A 390 engine does provide one nice feature: internal sinks. However, actually dropping a couple in (nevermind 5) would've cut the already minimal pod tonnage even more. And the desired weapon configs were such that the DHS space needs never really became a problem.
Why not more missiles?
It was pondered. One of the configs would've given it 4 LRM15s with ammo, and a pair of erMLs. But that was a bit too Thunder-Stallion-like for me. It's also possible to make a 6-SRM4 version with erLL and paired erMLs, but I just went ATM instead.
Why the massive rear weaponry?
Partially because a quad kind of needs that, and the Ballius is likely to face enemies that have enough speed to flank it. I don't think that's wasted tonnage from that perspective, and there's another reason, more on that soon. Beyond that, a player can easily make a config with a pure frontal focus.
Plus I wanted to be the first to rear-mount an LPL. ;)
Finally, here's something I think a lot of people don't consider when evaluating this design:
You need to go prone with it. A lot.
Consider that it only costs 1 MP, and provides another +1 at range *without* giving you any penalties. It's like free, portable cover. It also gives you another option when dealing with an opponent that likes to punch.
And getting back up happens automatically while all legs are on, just burn the 2 MP, and take the 1 heat.
Which means that the Prime, with 2 ERLL, at a run, and having gotten up that turn is... at 0 heat.
Which means that the B can elect to run away from you one turn, still generate a +3, and STILL shoot you with the damn LPL.
Here's the other aspect of that:
At 6/9, and needing to invest 1 MP to go prone, you should be able to move at 7 hexes every turn.
At 5/8, not so much.
At 6/9, and needing to invest 2MP to stand up, at which point you can pick any facing, you'll likely still get your 7 hexes, or take 5-6 and another prone.
At 5/8, not so much.
5/8 is a pretty decent speed for a biped. 6/9 is nice. But a quad suffers a bit at 5/8, I would say that the sweet spots bump by 1 base MP.
So, a biped's 7/11 is a quad's 8/12. Etc.
If you're not using prone properly with this guy, you're leaving money on the table.
Now, here's something else:
Dueling. As I indicated, this was a prime concern in its design. Clan commanders spend a good % of their time in it, and have to defend against challenges to their position.
Which means you pick the venue.
Which means that you give yourself ideal terrain against whoever issued the challenge, or at least have the speed to compensate for cruddy terrain if that choice is out of your hands.
Against slower enemies, you use your speed and ranged weapon. Your to-hit differential should be +2 or +3 most every turn. With elite pilots, that means you're playing in the Long range band, and the Ballius is able to push things on the down-slope of the bellcurve most every turn.
Against faster enemies, you take your lumps, and worry less about dictating range. Sooner or later, you'll get the upper hand, and meanwhile, him being swifter also likely means he's significantly more frail than you. You can afford it. Meanwhile, he's either consigned to shooting at your sides, or still getting pelted. The ability to have two arcs that can affect your enemy's movement decisions gives you options, and also means he's much less likely to prevent getting shot if he loses initiative.
Frankly, the only thing it sucks at is moving Battle Armor, but from a Horse Combined Arms aspect, it still gains some points somewhere: Many Clans continue to be prone to ignore tanks in favor of Mechs as their priority target.
Which means a clever Ballius can provoke his enemies, draw hostile fire from friendly vehicles. Which is a job it's not bad at, since it combines a lot of armor and internals, with an ability to generate a +3 or +4 modifier on its motion alone every turn. The only other way to get that reliably done is a 5/8 frame with iJJs.
Could it have been better? Yeah, even given the fact that we couldn't adjust tonnage. But I think we took that ball and ran with it a bit further than some seem to think.
Paul
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. . .I'm just going to leave this here, and then run to shelter.
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The few times I've used it, its done okay. Not great, but an effective part of a force. When you get to add in things like side stepping and going prone easily (as well as getting up) it can really annoy your opponent. Even more when the Balius is almost dead and you turn it around for a turn or two of its rear weaponry.
And I still say that the chest plate looks like that of a Chig from Space Above and Beyond.
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Could it have been better? Yeah, even given the fact that we couldn't adjust tonnage. But I think we took that ball and ran with it a bit further than some seem to think.
I see your points. But why couldn't the tonnage adjusted to 60t? Even with 6/9 it'd have received an additional few tons of podspace, while mounting definetely more armor than a Stormcrow.
Was the Balius in an earlier source mentioned (as a 65 t mech)? I was not aware of this fact...
Nevertheless:
Possibly the mech I despise the most. Anyone that wants to use it, more power to you: you can use my share of them. It has every strike against it. Its ugly, its a quad, its mini isn't that great, it has no standout configs. Worse, its redundant! The Stormcrow fills the role, Jihad factory destruction and CHH move to the IS or not. It makes the Linebacker look competent! Its not even the first quad totem within the Horses!
Exactly my feelings!
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I see your points. But why couldn't the tonnage adjusted to 60t?
Because:
Not every design officially made is intended to be good.
Making it as a 60 tonner would have been better, I agree.
But you'll note we purposefully avoid the absolutely most optimum design choices sometimes. Pretty often, actually.
Paul
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I realize the designs configuration are kinda redundant if you compare them to other OmniMechs. I'd like present another thought that isn't necessary entertained as much. Alot designs fell out production due to the Clan worlds being taken out of the picture.
As far I know as example the Stormcrow is out of production due to lack of factories. Its numbers maybe dropping but that fluff talk not what a causal player deals with. A player plays what they want unless their rping or doing some thing era specific.
Balius despite its problems is something that IS arguably in production. You got fill those holes your touman with something if you don't have allot to work with. Hell's Horses have portable factories, but their not necessary making old favorites as of yet.
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the balius wasn't designed to fill holes in the touman, remember it hand built by the best techs, and only given the highly successful bloodnamed warriors. its a ride of prestige, not 'practicality' (in quotes cause i can't think of a better word)
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the balius wasn't designed to fill holes in the touman, remember it hand built by the best techs, and only given the highly successful bloodnamed warriors. its a ride of prestige, not 'practicality' (in quotes cause i can't think of a better word)
It is currently. I didn't think that was intended as the long-term plan for the design, though I could be mistaken.
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in M and M it says limited production, and i don't think that limited production is enough to 'fill the holes'. then again limited production could mean its still a very exclusive and rare design. its exclusivity is part of what the mech is and represents i believe: excellence of production and excellence of usage, and you could say that its meant to display the excellence of the clan it represents, something it desperately needed when the mech was made
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I rather like this quirky machine, with probably a bit of preference going to configs Prime and D (although I also like the proposed LRM variant Paul mentions above, but I did go a different way when mounting LRM's)...
But I would actually consider rear mounted ER large lasers instead of twin rear mounted medium pulse lasers...no one would expect a quad to be able to hit anything at 25 hexes in its rear arc... }:)
Ruger
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Plus I wanted to be the first to rear-mount an LPL. ;)
Actually, you're 19 years late on the draw, see the Jagatai-C in TRO3055.
-Jackmc
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Actually, you're 19 years late on the draw, see the Jagatai-C in TRO3055.
Aint a 'Mech, is it? =p
Paul
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. . .I'm just going to leave this here, and then run to shelter.
I hate you so much. ;D ;D ;D
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Making it as a 60 tonner would have been better, I agree.
But you'll note we purposefully avoid the absolutely most optimum design choices sometimes. Pretty often, actually.
Paul
Not to beat a dead horse, but reducing weight to 60 wouldn't change it in an optimzed mech, more in a less sucking mech ;)
Yeah. someone had to be the counter-weight to the Hellstar (too optimzed IMHO, but maybe thats my opinion because I was on the receiving end) :)
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Not to beat a dead horse, but reducing weight to 60 wouldn't change it in an optimzed mech, more in a less sucking mech ;)
*shrug* warts give it character. Optimized 'Mechs have been and will continue to be rare things.
Paul
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I agree with that, i like the idea of having some rare and uncommon designs that in production. Makes them more special aside from being "perfect" mech. That does get boring, though i can't say wouldn't make economic sense if a rare not-so-great 'Mech stay in production unless there was nothing to replace it.
Thats why i keep think its bizzare how many not so great design would stay around in Dark Age.
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*shrug* warts give it character. Optimized 'Mechs have been and will continue to be rare things.
But man are they beautiful when you do get them. Gota love the Grashopper K's, Catapracht 4L's and Hellstar's of the game.
-Jackmc
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But man are they beautiful when you do get them. Gota love the Grashopper K's, Catapracht 4L's and Hellstar's of the game.
I think par of their beauty is only possible with lots of contrast. If optimization was commonplace, it'd also be boring and pedestrian.
Paul
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I think par of their beauty is only possible with lots of contrast. If optimization was commonplace, it'd also be boring and pedestrian.
Paul
Besides, leaving room for improvement is a great way to motivate people to buy the TechManual. ;)
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I think par of their beauty is only possible with lots of contrast. If optimization was commonplace, it'd also be boring and pedestrian.
Paul
Totally agree though I'd more favor a better mix of mediocre to poor/high quality than the kind of wonky mix we have now where the uber good/bad seem to be more common than the mediocre (though I'm willign to admit this could be more of a perception bias since the beauty queens and warthogs tend to get the most attention). mind you that's the result of 25 years of line development, and thus I'm not criticizing any particular "administration" as it were with the exception that the final FASA team which seemed to have put out RS:Upgrades with a kind of "smoke em if ya got em" view on optimized designs, but given that they expected the line to end, that's understandable.
Though i guess once thing I'd add is that I'd like to see the Vehicle Traits used in TRO's. While there's obviously cases of where obselete/wrong weapons systems are produced for various reasons for the most part most militaries tend to have a pretty fair idea of what they want and need, and it's the execution of that list of demands that often falls short. That's something that the Traits seem to represent better in many cases.
-Jackmc
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Well, 2 things to keep in mind:
In-universe, things aren't as easy for the engineers as they are for us.
Secondly, if you do too many shiny "perfect" designs, to reduce or kill another dynamic: that of an in-universe urge to chase a better mousetrap. After all, why build anything that's not a Hellstar? Why ever build anything else?
Paul
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Well, 2 things to keep in mind:
In-universe, things aren't as easy for the engineers as they are for us.
Secondly, if you do too many shiny "perfect" designs, to reduce or kill another dynamic: that of an in-universe urge to chase a better mousetrap. After all, why build anything that's not a Hellstar? Why ever build anything else?
The thign is I'm not saying making it a perfect optimized design, but rather start out with a really nice optimized design that represents the goals and then throw a dose of "real life" at it. frex, the Panther 10K as intended was a damn nice design but unfortunately the Combine's shortage of d-sinks at the time, resulted in the actual model being kind of pathetic.
Or more to my point. Let's take the Hellstar and assume the stats in the TRO are the specs the Warriors gave to the Scientist caste. Now let's look at the art and realize just how narrow the mech is and how little volume is left in the arms after you consider the bulk ofthe ER PPC. That suggests to me that the majority of the 15 d-sinks that are not integeral to the engine are packed ubertight within that torso. Considering that and then considering the Design Quirks from Strat ops, that suggests to me that the mech may suffer from "Cooling System Flaws" and either "Cramped Cockpit" or "Difficult Ejection" since the head seems to be an extension of the torso. If we assume "Difficult Ejection" is because the cockpit is so tiny, then we can also assume that because the standard life support system has so little volume to contend with that the mech qualifies for "Improved Life Support" and then we can assume that while the cooling system is less than stellar, the sensor designers did a great job and the mech qualifies for "Improved Sensors." The end result is a mech that's still mostly( but not totally) optimized but has some character as well.
I'd like to see quirks canonically assigned like that in the TRO's like FASA used to due with the later TRO-equivalents in the Crimson Skies line.
-Jackmc
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I'd like to see quirks canonically assigned like that in the TRO's like FASA used to due with the later TRO-equivalents in the Crimson Skies line.
Gotcha. I see what you mean now. Good point.
Paul
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You know, that's actually a pretty good idea. With the TRO format changing a bit to a smaller size and more regular release, maybe that's a section that could be added in. "Official" recommended quirks?
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As one of those responsible, I thought it might be entertaining to react.
(Probably not entertaining to me... ;) )
Paul, let me say a huge thanks for taking the time to explain how you intended this to be used. Particularly the part about going prone is interesting me and something I didn't even think of. Any chance you can poke the other writers to stop by here every once in a while to give these kinds of insights into each week's MotW?
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Prone and quads is good. It makes Thunder Stallions interesting.
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Prone and quads is good. It makes Thunder Stallions interesting.
You know....I never thought of Quads going prone...I thought they had the same restrictions doing
that as bipedal 'mechs...
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You know....I never thought of Quads going prone...I thought they had the same restrictions doing
that as bipedal 'mechs...
They kinda do; you need to spend 1 MP to go down, and you need to spend 2MP to get back up.
What's awesome about them though is that you don't suffer that +2 penalty for firing when prone in a quad, AND you don't need a PSR to get back on your feet; you just spend the 2 MP and pick a facing, and you're done.
Hence the primary reason the Balius is 6/9; see also the tactics suggestions I mention prior.
But yeah, a thunderstallion prone on a hill in woods is a surprisingly annoying problem... My wife loves using them.
Paul
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You know....I never thought of Quads going prone...I thought they had the same restrictions doing
that as bipedal 'mechs...
Between bipeds being more popular than quads, most people thus rarely having a reason to go prone on purpose, and the rule itself kind of tucked away in a one-sentence subpoint of "Firing When Down", it is somewhat easy to miss. And of course you still spend MP dropping prone and getting back up, so to some extent the defense bonus at range comes at the cost of part of your TMM for that turn at least.
Still, it's one of the few real benefits of using a quad, and it's also one that goes away once you lose the first hip actuator (with or without the leg), so there's definitely some incentive to use it while it lasts.
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Nice article and counter-fire from Paul nice too see the players reaction to a design and the designers intention for the design
Haven't really used or faced the design much but enjoyed reading about it
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They kinda do; you need to spend 1 MP to go down, and you need to spend 2MP to get back up.
What's awesome about them though is that you don't suffer that +2 penalty for firing when prone in a quad, AND you don't need a PSR to get back on your feet; you just spend the 2 MP and pick a facing, and you're done.
Hence the primary reason the Balius is 6/9; see also the tactics suggestions I mention prior.
But yeah, a thunderstallion prone on a hill in woods is a surprisingly annoying problem... My wife loves using them.
Paul
I have to say that I see quads in a new light and have made a serious tactical shift when using them. Thanks!
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But yeah, a thunderstallion prone on a hill in woods is a surprisingly annoying problem... My wife loves using them.
That's a problem I can solve with fire.
I have to say that I see quads in a new light and have made a serious tactical shift when using them. Thanks!
Gives me an idea for using a Snow Fox in new and annoying ways, at least.
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I have to say that I see quads in a new light and have made a serious tactical shift when using them. Thanks!
You got it. If you're not going prone every turn in your quad then you're:
a. Using Jumpjets that turn
b. Too slow
c. Doing it wrong.
;)
Note the other big one on going prone is the ability to pick any direction when you're getting back up. This is an excellent way to frustrate an opponent that closed right on top of you. Just make sure to pick a hex to go prone in that has 2-3 suitable exit paths next turn, either a straight shot at 7 hexes, or 5 hexes and a Light Woods. (Or 3 and heavy) If you're not making 3's and 4's every turn, you're not doing it right.
There's also no shame in getting up, doing 3-4 hexes in to a light woods, and then going prone again. Yeah, you're at +3 again.
Also note the Balius is primed for dueling; obviously a lot of that mileage evaporates when fighting large formations. The advantage is in dogfighting.
When range dueling, sidestepping becomes almost as important as going prone when keeping the range open.
Paul
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So... you can actually go prone one turn in firing position, and then stand up facing the entirely opposite direction for a net difference of zero MP and the addition of a defensive bonus when prone?
That's awesome.
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So... you can actually go prone one turn in firing position, and then stand up facing the entirely opposite direction for a net difference of zero MP and the addition of a defensive bonus when prone?
That's awesome.
Yep. You still spend the 3 MP for a full 180 degree turn, but you get the nice prone bonus for "free" inbetween.
Also, while you're foregoing your own kick, sometimes you want your enemies to kick you on the full chart, instead of the leg chart. If that happens to be more important than a kick (or, since you lost init, your opponent isn't likely to give you a kick at all) going prone can kinda work defensively.
Just realize that kick (and their firepower) gets a -2 bonus for being pointblank to a prone target, so it'd best be the last 2 turns in a duel, or it's going to be the last 2 turns that duel... ;)
Paul
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Also, while you're foregoing your own kick, sometimes you want your enemies to kick you on the full chart, instead of the leg chart. If that happens to be more important than a kick (or, since you lost init, your opponent isn't likely to give you a kick at all) going prone can kinda work defensively.
Just realize that kick (and their firepower) gets a -2 bonus for being pointblank to a prone target, so it'd best be the last 2 turns in a duel, or it's going to be the last 2 turns that duel... ;)
Paul
Mmm. I'll be honest, usually I'd just as soon use the leg chart. After all, with quads, if I lose a side torso I lose the attached foreleg anyway... (That's actually one potential reason for Clan quads with their free CASE in particular to keep their explosive ammo in their legs -- it's not like any of the other locations a quad has would be so much better.)
Might be different if a leg was really close to going and the torso armor still mostly intact, though I'd still be giving my opponent a free to-hit bonus in exchange for the chance of the hit I likely will take even if I wasn't going to before going elsewhere.
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Yeah, I'm with you there. But I've been able to use that "trick" once or twice. Still lost both times, but it took longer. ;)
Paul
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something that just pop in my head but not sure about. It the physical combat stage it show in solaris that quad can do mule kicks. ( forgot w hat the damage am going to guess it is leg kick damagex2 but shouldn't you also be able to do a forward kick as well.. let call it a horse stump for the term
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I'm going to take the dissenting position here, and say that the Balius isn't "teh suck" as many might think. The Primary configuration, and alternate configurations Bravo and Charlie, are damned useful in a heavy mecha-cavalry formation. The aforementioned configs have got the speed, level of armor protection, and weapon loadouts to fill that role remarkably well. The quad chassis also offers a few perks with the design.
I don't know about the games of others, but in our gaming the cavalry is about high mobility warfare. Stay on the move, strike fast, and hit hard. The problems with the Balius begin when one tries to play it as a typical line heavy. It's not a design that lends itself to heavy maneuver combat very well. It's all about haulin' ass, not getting glassed.
I have a huge appreciation for fast heavies like the Balius. When things go sour, and it suddenly comes time to make like horse shit and hit the trail (no pun intended), it's less of a headache to get them off of the mapsheets than with the typical line 4/6 (and to a lesser extent, 5/8) heavy units. The faster you complete your tactical withdraw (aka: retreat after a major SNAFU), the fewer rear guard units you lose.
Finally, considering the role we use it in, the look of the design is very appropriate. I know that pretty is as pretty does, but the thing just looks damned cool. This is probably the closest a 31st Century cav pilot is going to get to the horse cavalry of the past. Spiritual successors and all that.
Anyway, that's just my take on the Balius. I like the design. It's worked well for my group.
And as always, just my two cents worth.
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something that just pop in my head but not sure about. It the physical combat stage it show in solaris that quad can do mule kicks. ( forgot w hat the damage am going to guess it is leg kick damagex2 but shouldn't you also be able to do a forward kick as well.. let call it a horse stump for the term
Not sure where the mule kick rules went, but TW lets you kick in your rear arc at a +1 penalty, but normal kick damage. So, only 2 hexes are "safe" around a standing quad.
Paul
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Not sure where the mule kick rules went, but TW lets you kick in your rear arc at a +1 penalty, but normal kick damage. So, only 2 hexes are "safe" around a standing quad.
Paul
Of course, in those two hexes you're extremely safe because it can't do anything about you in there at all. No torso to twist, no arms to punch with...attacks from the side are the bane of even quads with actual rear-mounted weapons.
Which of course strongly implies that if your quad ever ends up in physical attack range of anything, you're Doing It Wrong. ;) The wide-open side arcs mean you really want to keep your distance from your enemies to avoid getting outflanked. (Turrets help once you get into TacOps, but that doesn't exactly apply to the Balius unless perhaps in custom configurations if they can be pod-mounted in the first place -- I may have to get over onto the rules board and check/ask because simply applying the "if it doesn't say it can't be podded, it can" default could get a bit weird here.)
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This is just my opinion but I doubt that default applies here. Keep in mind that of the advanced turrets, two are using basically the same construction rules as standard vehicular turrets, which can't be pod mounted.
A formal answer would probably settle it for the rules lawyers, though.
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I like the 'Mech despite its weakness. For a quad, it having rear mount weapon helps it from getting in trouble. Makes me wonder what Inner Sphere Quad OmniMech what would be like.
Like this? http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,20393.0.html (http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,20393.0.html)
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This is just my opinion but I doubt that default applies here. Keep in mind that of the advanced turrets, two are using basically the same construction rules as standard vehicular turrets, which can't be pod mounted.
A formal answer would probably settle it for the rules lawyers, though.
*nod* I've put the question up on the TacOps board. In the meantime I'm inclined to go with the most restrictive interpretation (well, other than "oops, those turrets all can't be used on Omnis at all") and consider any and all applicable turrets and turret mechanisms fixed parts of the base chassis.
Which, getting back on topic, means the Balius is kind of out of luck in that regard. ;)
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As far as I read the rules battlemech turrets could be pod mounted. I did make a variant on the prime which changed the rear pulses to ER meds and mounted the large lasers in turrets, never used it though.
As a horses player I got a Ballius for character (and to balance out that I also bought a Hellstar).
I put it in a fast scout hunter/ head hunter force with a Grendel, an Uller, a Puma, and a Hellion.
The force did really well as long as I kept in mind the low overall armor and used my speed to my advantage. Frustrated the hell out of my opponent as I would strike at one side and then quickly redeploy to spread his lines thin.
In this star the Ballius acts as a backbone providing long range firepower and bullying lighter mechs that might get behind my forces. It also provides a big target to draw some of the firepower away from the light mechs. I kind of like it in this role though sometime I might try the D as a heavy skirmisher in a heavy/assault force.
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Like this? http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,20393.0.html (http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,20393.0.html)
Or like this. (http://privat.bahnhof.se/wb503046//designs/weretiger.html)
Or this. (http://privat.bahnhof.se/wb503046//designs/werecat.html)
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Makes me wonder what Inner Sphere Quad OmniMech what would be like.
One configuration better have HGR ;)
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Sorry about the necro, but reading this made me wonder if maybe a Torso mounted cockpit or Interface Cockpit would make this any better. I'll have to look into that.
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I'm also curious how the ProtoMechs riding the thing would look like. This being 65 tons, won't it be able hold 2? It be kinda funny, looking like a Cowboy like ProtoMech riding a Ballius Horse. ;D
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And this reminds me even more to take a picture of my stable of Balius. I'm also interested by quirky mechs, and customized several and even magnetized 1 because I could. I even added a custom LRM version because it looked so nice.
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I'm also curious how the ProtoMechs riding the thing would look like. This being 65 tons, won't it be able hold 2? It be kinda funny, looking like a Cowboy like ProtoMech riding a Ballius Horse. ;D
Now if I could draw, I'd put a pic up of a minotaur with a cowboy hat riding...
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Well...i can't draw well either. Apparently not that good using MS Paint...this Hydra is very out scale i think to the heavier Balius
(https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5569.0;attach=47541)
"Gitty up, little Balius"
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Well...i can't draw well either. Apparently not that good using MS Paint...this Hydra is very out scale i think to the heavier Balius
(https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5569.0;attach=47541)
"Gitty up, little Balius"
PAUL! YOU GOTTA CONE SEE THIS! We'll see if that works. Even if it's not to scale that looks nice.
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PAUL! YOU GOTTA CONE SEE THIS! We'll see if that works. Even if it's not to scale that looks nice.
You guys are damn lucky I have no actual powers anymore. >|
lol, I hate you both so much right now...! ;D
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The game needs a rule that allows protos to ride quadmechs. Just because.
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The game needs a rule that allows protos to ride quadmechs. Just because.
Protomech Magclamps, just saying...When OmniQuad isn't handy.
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Clamps aren't quite riding. Plus i really, wonder where do the magclamped protos attach on a quad? (Rhetorical, i don't want to actually know.)
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A second problem was that the massive engine basically tagteamed with the limited crit space, making massive weapons impractical. 325XL would have mitigated the former, and I could've elected to ditch Ferro or even Endo and come out ahead, tonnage-wise. But as indicated, the proliferation of 5/8 65 tonners was a strong reason not to take that course.
You need to go prone with it. A lot.
Here's the other aspect of that:
At 6/9, and needing to invest 1 MP to go prone, you should be able to move at 7 hexes every turn.
At 5/8, not so much.
At 6/9, and needing to invest 2MP to stand up, at which point you can pick any facing, you'll likely still get your 7 hexes, or take 5-6 and another prone.
At 5/8, not so much.
5/8 is a pretty decent speed for a biped. 6/9 is nice. But a quad suffers a bit at 5/8, I would say that the sweet spots bump by 1 base MP.
So, a biped's 7/11 is a quad's 8/12. Etc.
If you're not using prone properly with this guy, you're leaving money on the table.
The stuff at the end of the thread had me going back through this whole thing, and I read through this, and decided to try an experiment...And found that going the 3025 XL route would have given you Timber Wolf, Mad Dog and Hellbringer levels of pod space (perhaps a bit more) with the endo and same levels of ferro, but with 3 extra heat sinks in the engine...however, you still have only 16 crits in which to use the space...still with a bit of tweaking (involving adding a supercharger to the design), it led to interesting paths that should still work with the above...
5/8(10) seems like it should work the above quiaff? Of course, at the time of this design, I do not believe that was an option...
Ruger
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Well...i can't draw well either. Apparently not that good using MS Paint...this Hydra is very out scale i think to the heavier Balius
(https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5569.0;attach=47541)
"Gitty up, little Balius"
My Little Pony of the Apocalypse!
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So, as the risk of going a bit off-topic, couldn't a modern quadvee, with 2 pilots, theoretically be styled like a horse with rider? With a cockpit at the front of the torso, and one on the 'turret'?
I know the dual cockpit won't actually be there, but at least fluff-wise.
...
xp
Anyways, if this is a command/totem mech, why no new variants?
I could see this being salvageable with better configs...
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2 Balius
2 Light Mechs w/ lrms
1 Heavy wheeled vehicle w/ Mech Transport and 3 armored sides, towable
Equals 1 Hell's Horses Chariot Star Of The Apocalypse
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So, as the risk of going a bit off-topic, couldn't a modern quadvee, with 2 pilots, theoretically be styled like a horse with rider? With a cockpit at the front of the torso, and one on the 'turret'?
I know the dual cockpit won't actually be there, but at least fluff-wise.
...
xp
Anyways, if this is a command/totem mech, why no new variants?
I could see this being salvageable with better configs...
So... a Hells Horses Totem-Omni-Quadvee? Because I have a vivid and weird imagination, I find myself simultaneously appaled and fascinated by this concept. How would it be called... Ghost pony rider?
(https://i.giphy.com/media/RrVE1Vvo1jgoU/giphy.webp)
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A wild herd of Balius has appeared!
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I like the brown colored one, Luciora.
Just noticed how big the head is in scale of it's body with the mini. Does it seem the image of the Balius is like that too?
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The mini is very faithful to the art I feel.
I like the brown colored one, Luciora.
Just noticed how big the head is in scale of it's body with the mini. Does it seem the image of the Balius is like that too?
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(https://derpicdn.net/img/2012/7/8/36467/full.jpg)
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There aren't that many animated horse characters outside of the Pony series that had memorable color schemes, hence my choice of G Gundam and She-Ra.
(https://derpicdn.net/img/2012/7/8/36467/full.jpg)
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I just realized that if the Capellan Confederation captured one of these they could put mine dispensers on it in a rear-facing center torso mount to leave horse apples from hell.
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I just realized that if the Capellan Confederation captured one of these they could put mine dispensers on it in a rear-facing center torso mount to leave horse apples from hell.
A similarly mounted flamer also conjures giggles.
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...we necro-ed a thread to make poop jokes?
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Well, since it's been necroed, any chance of the article getting updated for the Balius E variant from 3145?
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Seconded.
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To me the Balius E seems almost like the beginner's variant or the one with training wheels you give to a new guy. When the Balius first went into production they were handbuilt or low production runs. It was only given to high ranking warriors with bloodnames, i.e. warriors who had proven themselves in combat many times over. They knew how to make the most of the limits of the various Balius variants.
The Balius E appears to be from a time when the Balius is more widespread and given to less skilled, less capable warriors. The weapons (ER Large Pulse Laser, Streak LRM15, Streak SRM 6, Improved Heavy Medium Laser) all sacrifice weight (or gain explosive properties) to improve the targeting performance of the weapons. In addition, due to the streak missile systems it is very difficult to overheat the Balius E using the forward-facing weapons, unlike most every other Balius variant, meaning it is more controlled for a new warrior.
That said it is not a bad 'Mech, it can deal a 10-point hit at long ranges and crit seek with missiles, it's just a bit plain in my eyes.
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To me the Balius E seems almost like the beginner's variant or the one with training wheels you give to a new guy. When the Balius first went into production they were handbuilt or low production runs. It was only given to high ranking warriors with bloodnames, i.e. warriors who had proven themselves in combat many times over. They knew how to make the most of the limits of the various Balius variants.
The Balius E appears to be from a time when the Balius is more widespread and given to less skilled, less capable warriors. The weapons (ER Large Pulse Laser, Streak LRM15, Streak SRM 6, Improved Heavy Medium Laser) all sacrifice weight (or gain explosive properties) to improve the targeting performance of the weapons. In addition, due to the streak missile systems it is very difficult to overheat the Balius E using the forward-facing weapons, unlike most every other Balius variant, meaning it is more controlled for a new warrior.
That said it is not a bad 'Mech, it can deal a 10-point hit at long ranges and crit seek with missiles, it's just a bit plain in my eyes.
Sounds like something that would appeal to the higher-ups in the Society. Warriors are meatheads that should be pointed at a problem and not overly burdened with an abundance of options.
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Sounds like something that would appeal to the higher-ups in the Society. Warriors are meatheads that should be pointed at a problem and not overly burdened with an abundance of options.
I'd back that assessment- well, both of them actually, that the Balius E is for Society schlubs, and that they're fairly disposable assets. I never had the impression that Society warriors were really 1) warriors in the accepted sense anyway, nor 2) that they were really valued beyond 'go kill those guys'- if they come back, great, we an use them again, if they don't... well, your sacrifice in the name of SCIENCE! will be remembered or something like that, whatever makes you happy. (NOTE: When referring to the Society, the word 'science' should always be in all-caps with an exclamation point, no matter the situation)
So, give them whatever you can give them for training, give them a basic weapon loadout that even they can't screw up (probably), make sure their Nova system is switched to 'ON' (that's the green button, surat!), and go nuts. Something with pulse weapons and Streak launchers sounds ideal for Mechwarrior Kickedinthehead, fresh off his old job of cleaning Elemental codpieces or whatever he did before the Society's rise.
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I'd back that assessment- well, both of them actually, that the Balius E is for Society schlubs, and that they're fairly disposable assets. I never had the impression that Society warriors were really 1) warriors in the accepted sense anyway, nor 2) that they were really valued beyond 'go kill those guys'- if they come back, great, we an use them again, if they don't... well, your sacrifice in the name of SCIENCE! will be remembered or something like that, whatever makes you happy. (NOTE: When referring to the Society, the word 'science' should always be in all-caps with an exclamation point, no matter the situation)
So, give them whatever you can give them for training, give them a basic weapon loadout that even they can't screw up (probably), make sure their Nova system is switched to 'ON' (that's the green button, surat!), and go nuts. Something with pulse weapons and Streak launchers sounds ideal for Mechwarrior Kickedinthehead, fresh off his old job of cleaning Elemental codpieces or whatever he did before the Society's rise.
And the ER Pulse laser fits in with their love of toys. I also have to keep reminding myself that its not really an extended range pulsed laser. It's a pulsed, extended range laser.
Stacked against the cLPLAS, the erLPLAS has 3 more hexs of max range, but within inside 20 hexes, the LPLAS will have better TH numbers, except for at hexes 8 and 15. Against the erLLAS, the ER pulse looses by 2 hexes, but has better hit numbers across the board.
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But it's heavier and hotter than the ER laser.
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Doesn't the E have the most throw weight at long range, maybe medium too?
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Doesn't the E have the most throw weight at long range, maybe medium too?
I think alt config A (HAG-20 and Er Large) can pump out a max potential at long range that’s a couple points higher?
Ruger
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Is that including the -2 that HAGs get 9n the cluster roll at long range?
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With a +0 a 20 point cluster weapon averages 12. Streaks are the obvious exception. HAGs at long range drop off more.
With raw damage the A is higher.
The E's Laser is more accurate and the LRM more consistent.
And that is before we consider heat.