Author Topic: 'Mech of the Week: Summoner (Thor) Omni  (Read 42270 times)

Pa Weasley

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Summoner (Thor) Omni
« Reply #30 on: 22 September 2012, 06:59:25 »
However, in the event that a Summoner loses both torsos, either to ammunition explosion or just plain battle damage, it'll still have five jump jets to run away with if it has been soundly beaten and the warrior inside knows that.
Actually, it would be crippled by engine crits, but I get the point you're making. Even the loss of one torso (assuming they jet were mounted symmetrically) knocks you down to three.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Summoner (Thor) Omni
« Reply #31 on: 22 September 2012, 07:28:22 »
Aside from the obvious mistakes like FF over ES (which actually reduces your armor value) or the stupid ammo loads, it is a solid performer.
Far from optimized like the Stormcrow or Timby, but i would take it over a Hellbringer any day.
For the longest time i was particulary fond of the D, but then the Nova Cat A showed up. Though some day i took the Prime, replaced the LBX with a second ER-PPC and heatsinks, and have run with that ever since.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Summoner (Thor) Omni
« Reply #32 on: 22 September 2012, 09:27:02 »
Summoner excels at looking cool, so that's in its favour.  Huge fan of the C and D but in general, the typical loadouts of energy, missiles and ballistic leave it feeling undergunned and not very Clan to me, where I'm much more used to hotboxes.  Haven't used the newer ones at all.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Summoner (Thor) Omni
« Reply #33 on: 22 September 2012, 11:07:46 »
Both configurations come from Way of the Clans, specifically during Aidan and Marthe's initial Trial of Position. Marthe's configuration seems to be essentially an 'M' variant, but also mounting an ER medium laser.

Aidan's Summoner is a bit harder to figure out. The novel states he replaced his LB-10X autocannon with a large pulse laser, but doesn't specify where the missing tonnage went. He does seem to mount an Anti-Missile System, but in the Legend of the Jade Phoenix trilogy, every Clan 'Mech seems to carry an AMS, despite what their respective record sheets show.

They're not listed on a record sheet anywhere that I can find mention of, so we can't really know exactly what the configs are.  The MUL lists them both as 0 BV entries, as well, implying that they don't actually have a canon record sheet.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Summoner (Thor) Omni
« Reply #34 on: 22 September 2012, 11:47:38 »
Sure, i don't need optimized, but when I've used Stormcrows, Novas, Mad Dogs and yes, Timber Wolves to beat up on Summoners it leaves a sub-standard view behind (and yes, it's because it's BV is so high for what you get, that instead of investing in a similiarly BV's 'mech, i spend on smaller 'mechs with better pilots and hit the Summoner more often in the end.)  I think if the 'mech was redone in the modern era (even with fixed jets and what not) with well thought out configurations, it might help (but of course, not with the BV.)

It still has it's uses, but I guess it's the Coyote in me (or the anti-Falcon) that leaves it for more specialized rolls and not my go-to 'Mech  :D
Gargoyle A, C, D, E, and H are among my favorites, and within the general BV range of Summoners.  (G and M look promising as well, but I've never used them)  But that may just be the Coyote in me, defaulting to a design ten tons heavier than the opposition.  I also use Linebackers as scout star leaders.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Summoner (Thor) Omni
« Reply #35 on: 23 September 2012, 22:14:47 »
This is a great article for what is, personally, one of my least favorite mechs.

It isn’t particularly weak in any objective sense. It has its flaws, but so do most of the original Clan mechs, and the Summoner is probably better than many of them. What I dislike about it is the particular way it’s flawed. The 3050 mechs tend to make certain “mistakes” on a regular basis. They pack in too many weapons, with too few heat sinks. They don’t carry enough ammunition for long engagements. They push the envelope on speed for their tonnage. We see these traits in the Nova, the Mad Dog, the Hellbringer, the Warhawk, even the vaunted Timber Wolf. These “mistakes” tell a story about the users. Like their mechs, the Clans are powerful, aggressive, and ambitious…but ultimately their reach exceeds their grasp, and they fall short of their potential.

The Summoner tells a different story. Most of it’s configs are oversinked and underarmed for its size. It frequently mounts plenty of ammunition tonnage, even if it distributes its ammo poorly between weapons. The Summoner says that the Clans are overly cautious and unwilling to exploit their advantages – and it’s the preferred mount of the Jade Falcons of all people! So I don’t dislike the Summoner because it’s bad. I dislike it because it lies.

daeceg

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Summoner (Thor) Omni
« Reply #36 on: 23 September 2012, 22:17:52 »
The only issue I have is the stupid ammo loads.  (my kingdom for a second ton of Gauss slugs!)

The manueverability and decent armor are great fun...I bounce around like a rabbit on crystal meth, and the big energy weapon makes people seriously reconsider advancing forwards...

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Summoner (Thor) Omni
« Reply #37 on: 03 October 2012, 16:48:15 »
I admit to no small amount of hilarity in the Megamek scenario from the BT cartoon, The Taking of Somewhereorother.  I'll leave all the other 'Mechs behind as the Clan player, take the Summoner off, and sweep the board.  That ERPPC/SSRM6 spam isn't all that much on its face, but against everything but the assault in that scenario it's hell on wheels.  Add the LBX and ERSL when you feel like it; otherwise hell yes demented flea tactics ftw.  I admit that's against the bot, but still...that does show the potency of a +3TMM with a solid energy weapon and SSRMs
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Summoner (Thor) Omni
« Reply #38 on: 03 October 2012, 16:52:01 »
Honestly, the worst part about the Summoner is its armor, and that could be easily improved upon.  However, then it'd lose a lot of its flavor.

"Damning with faint praise" is a phrase that comes to mind immediately with the Summoner, no matter how much I love the thing.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Summoner (Thor) Omni
« Reply #39 on: 03 October 2012, 19:42:03 »
My favorite Clan 'Mech unless it's the Alt. D Configuration.  No matter how much I try, I never have success with that one. The H and M configurations have been the most successful for me followed by the A, B, and Prime Configs. I've got the E Config mini but haven't used it yet.  That one is a beast when used properly.

I haven't tried the newest ones yet.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Summoner (Thor) Omni
« Reply #40 on: 03 October 2012, 20:00:01 »
This is a great article for what is, personally, one of my least favorite mechs.

It isn’t particularly weak in any objective sense. It has its flaws, but so do most of the original Clan mechs, and the Summoner is probably better than many of them. What I dislike about it is the particular way it’s flawed. The 3050 mechs tend to make certain “mistakes” on a regular basis. They pack in too many weapons, with too few heat sinks. They don’t carry enough ammunition for long engagements. They push the envelope on speed for their tonnage. We see these traits in the Nova, the Mad Dog, the Hellbringer, the Warhawk, even the vaunted Timber Wolf. These “mistakes” tell a story about the users. Like their mechs, the Clans are powerful, aggressive, and ambitious…but ultimately their reach exceeds their grasp, and they fall short of their potential.

The Summoner tells a different story. Most of it’s configs are oversinked and underarmed for its size. It frequently mounts plenty of ammunition tonnage, even if it distributes its ammo poorly between weapons. The Summoner says that the Clans are overly cautious and unwilling to exploit their advantages – and it’s the preferred mount of the Jade Falcons of all people! So I don’t dislike the Summoner because it’s bad. I dislike it because it lies.
You do realize that you can cram a Summoner config into a Timber Wolf with 5 tons free right? Makes you wonder about the Pryde config of the Timber Wolf, why wasn't it based of off a Summoner one?

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Summoner (Thor) Omni
« Reply #41 on: 03 October 2012, 23:01:03 »
You can cram a Summoner's config into a Timber Wolf with five tons left only if you leave out the jump jets, in which case it's not actually a Summoner's config.  Accounting for heatsinks and other fixed equipment (and on the heatsink front, the Summoner uses its alloted 14 base heatsinks excellently in most configs.  I can't say the same about the Timber Wolf), the Timber Wolf only holds a one ton advantage, not a five ton advantage.

Summoner effective equipment tonnage: 22.5 tons podspace + 5 tons jump jets + 4 tons heatsinks = 31.5 tons of equipment
Timber Wolf effective equipment tonnage: 27.5 tons podspace + 5 tons heatsinks = 32.5 tons of equipment
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Summoner (Thor) Omni
« Reply #42 on: 03 October 2012, 23:32:13 »
You can cram a Summoner's config into a Timber Wolf with five tons left only if you leave out the jump jets, in which case it's not actually a Summoner's config.  Accounting for heatsinks and other fixed equipment (and on the heatsink front, the Summoner uses its alloted 14 base heatsinks excellently in most configs.  I can't say the same about the Timber Wolf), the Timber Wolf only holds a one ton advantage, not a five ton advantage.

Summoner effective equipment tonnage: 22.5 tons podspace + 5 tons jump jets + 4 tons heatsinks = 31.5 tons of equipment
Timber Wolf effective equipment tonnage: 27.5 tons podspace + 5 tons heatsinks = 32.5 tons of equipment
Ah, Scotty, I'm not quite getting your math here, or rather it's point, yes the Timber Wolf hard mounts 15 heat sinks, the Summoner hard mounts 14 which means the Timber Wolf doesn't need to mount extras so the math would be
Summoner pod space, 22.5 tons + 5 tons jj = 27.5 tons equal to the Timber Wolf's 27.5 ton pod space

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Summoner (Thor) Omni
« Reply #43 on: 04 October 2012, 01:56:02 »
I'm contesting your assertion that the Timber Wolf can mount all of the Summoner's configs with five tons left over.  It cannot, by virtue of the jump jets included with every Summoner config.

You do realize that you can cram a Summoner config into a Timber Wolf with 5 tons free right?
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Summoner (Thor) Omni
« Reply #44 on: 04 October 2012, 04:33:21 »
I'm contesting your assertion that the Timber Wolf can mount all of the Summoner's configs with five tons left over.  It cannot, by virtue of the jump jets included with every Summoner config.
Those five ton where for the JJ's

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Summoner (Thor) Omni
« Reply #45 on: 04 October 2012, 11:23:09 »
Which, if you're copying Summoner configs, must be included.  They're part of the config, even though they're hardwired to the base chassis.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Summoner (Thor) Omni
« Reply #46 on: 04 October 2012, 12:26:36 »
Except that they're part of the base chassis.  You might as well give the Timby +2.5 tons for its extra armor.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Summoner (Thor) Omni
« Reply #47 on: 04 October 2012, 13:14:21 »
You do realize that you can cram a Summoner config into a Timber Wolf with 5 tons free right? Makes you wonder about the Pryde config of the Timber Wolf, why wasn't it based of off a Summoner one?

Sure, you can configure a Timber Wolf like a slightly bigger Summoner if you want (I won't quible over exactly how much bigger). But the configs are precisely what I dislike about the Summoner - the base chasis is frimly in the "okay" category to me. I don't overly mind the fixed JJs (I actually think JJs shouldn't be podable), and while the lack of ES isn't ideal, the Summoner is hardly the only offender on that front.

(and on the heatsink front, the Summoner uses its alloted 14 base heatsinks excellently in most configs.  I can't say the same about the Timber Wolf)

I disagree. IMO, if an omni is going to mount fixed sinks, its configs should produce enough heat to reliably use them. On several Summoners the heat sinks are basically just dead weight - they don't even provide crit padding. There's plenty to criticize about the way most Timby configs balance (or rather, fail to balance) their heat, but carrying dead wieght sinks isn't usually one of them.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Summoner (Thor) Omni
« Reply #48 on: 04 October 2012, 13:17:22 »
Are they truly dead weight, or are they anti-inferno armor?
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Summoner (Thor) Omni
« Reply #49 on: 04 October 2012, 13:48:18 »
Infernos? Pah! Padding against plasma cannons.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Summoner (Thor) Omni
« Reply #50 on: 04 October 2012, 14:00:31 »
Most of the Summoner configs are pretty damn close to being alpha babies, but there are a few very-hot or very-cold configs.  There are only two or three that run ice cold (including one that can literally bathe in plasma and not gain any heat on a jumping alpha) but most of them use the heatsinks almost perfectly.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Summoner (Thor) Omni
« Reply #51 on: 04 October 2012, 17:17:52 »
Which ones the one that can't ever gain heat?

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Summoner (Thor) Omni
« Reply #52 on: 04 October 2012, 17:51:57 »
The Summoner A generates 20 heat on a jumping alpha, and mounts 14 double heatsinks for a total jumping alpha net heat of -8.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Summoner (Thor) Omni
« Reply #53 on: 04 October 2012, 18:04:46 »
Not quite plasma-proof, but knowing that a jumping alpha combined with a max possible plasma bath won't even result in targeting mods the next turn...not bad. I bet Thors in Republic service facing Capellans probably went into battle with this config when possible...
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Summoner (Thor) Omni
« Reply #54 on: 04 October 2012, 18:19:14 »
Indeed.  It's technically possible to overheat with repeated Bad Luck (or bad judgement) of the highest magnitude, it's practically the coolest running Clan Omni you're ever likely to find.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Summoner (Thor) Omni
« Reply #55 on: 04 October 2012, 18:21:39 »
I think the Mad Dog C would argue that point.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Summoner (Thor) Omni
« Reply #56 on: 04 October 2012, 18:23:07 »
I don't think anybody bothers challenging that icebox. Though the #2 slot is still pretty prestigious, and I think Thor A has a good shot at it.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Summoner (Thor) Omni
« Reply #57 on: 04 October 2012, 20:05:23 »
The Bestest 'Mech ever!

Of course, I'm biased since I pull for the Jade Falcons.  I'll take a Summoner any day over any of the newer designs like the Night Gyr or the Flamberge.  If a Clan Heavy doesn't move at least 5/8, then I'm not interested and the Summoner has more character IMO than either of those machines.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Summoner (Thor) Omni
« Reply #58 on: 09 October 2012, 11:24:17 »
Excellent write-up, even if I am a bit biased for it being my favourite Clan Omni and one of my fave 'Mechs full stop.

I've had a lot of good luck with Thor D, using it as a mobile sniper; jump into cover, take absurdly accurate shots at the enemy and so on and so forth. In theory it's damage is on the low side; in practice the combo of the TC and being able to Alpha all the live long day means that it can do a quite impressive amount of damage, especially when staying mobile and/or in cover. Thor D with a "Jumping Jack" Pilot is just monstrous.

With regards to Thor B, one odd-ball idea I've tried - and had work - was urban fire support. No, really. Hit target with NARC becon, jump away, indrect fire LRMs at them. Un-Clanlike, yes, but certainly fun and a great way to confuse an opponent.

All up, I love the Thor. Is it the best 'Mech ever? No. Does it have personality? Yes. And for me, personality beats optimization any day.
its also easier to fix, because it uses a standard chassis. If you are running a campaign thats analific on logistics, having a cluster thats full of Summoners and Hellbringers is nice as your IS pool is the same (only the armor requires two pools of diverse funds). One thing im discovering in The Boy's campaign is the sheer difficulty to fix clan mechs if you lack both endosteel and comparable FF armor, if you are a IS player...                        very nice write up, BTW sir!

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Summoner (Thor) Omni
« Reply #59 on: 09 October 2012, 11:58:28 »
Uhm, thats exactly the reason why i always prefer standard armor/endo over ferro/standard IS, besides the obvious weight advantages.
No matter what happens, you will ALWAYS have to repair armor. And a lot more than structure.
So while FF makes the Mech cheaper initially, in the long run it will cost you a fortune.

I absolutely hated having Clan Mechs with FF in my IS campaigns. Seriously, how does a 3060 Merc keep his Masakari armored?

And my god, a Hellbringer in IS hands? I'd sell that thing instantly, or gut it for parts. Put the peepers into one of the armored Warhammers and be happy.