'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech

[Nikas_Zekeval]

Three pages and no one remembers the 'Star Slayer' Thunderbolt?

Short form, it was a game set early in the Clan Invasion, a company was trying to get to a dropship for evac after their parent unit got smashed.  The Clan pursuit force included five Hellbringers.  IIRC they were racing through a canon system.

Deciding that he wasn't going to make it, a mechwarrior turned his TDR-5S around, and challenged the pursuing mechs.  In honor of his bravery the Clan commander granted individual combat.

The Thunderbolt eventually died, but the final kill count I believe was four Hellbringers outright destroyed and the fifth crippled.  Between the damage and delay the rest of his company managed to escape.

Now the situation and terrain were such to force the Clan to accept the engagement and close to finish it quick enough to capture the rest of the company, but also shows there is a limit to the 'do unto others' school of design.

[Greatclub]

I have a theory about the hellbie.

My theory is that FASA did optimize the early omnis quite well. Then somebody did some playtesting and realized it wasn't an equal fight 2-3 on one like the fluff said, but more like a lance on one to break even for 3025 tech.

The dire wolf's heat sinks went from the legs and CT to their current locations, the Koshi lost it's 7th jump jet, the Adder's LPL became ER-PPC. The poor Loki dropped its endo-ferro, and about half of its protection at the same time.

---

As for the canon hellbie, I look at it as similar to the Hunchback IIC - stupid until you realize that it's pilots are desperate to make some kills, and don't rate getting their hands on something that includes strategic resources.

Or maybe the designers just had a shortage of endo & ferro at one point - I can see somebody doing a number of challenges for all those factories the green chickens or scary ponies had at one point in a bid to deny them the ability to build some designs. Having an excess of hellbie factories means that that particular dirty trick wouldn't work all that well.

Of course, then you run into the fact you're building hellbringers.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I've used the B variant entirely too many times.  Mostly in Catalyst-run grinders, since it seems to be the only mech I can ever get in that point category.

That thing is just painfully underpowered for how much pod space it carries.

[grimlock1]

I have a theory about the hellbie.

My theory is that FASA did optimize the early omnis quite well. Then somebody did some playtesting and realized it wasn't an equal fight 2-3 on one like the fluff said, but more like a lance on one to break even for 3025 tech.

The dire wolf's heat sinks went from the legs and CT to their current locations, the Koshi lost it's 7th jump jet, the Adder's LPL became ER-PPC. The poor Loki dropped its endo-ferro, and about half of its protection at the same time.

---

As for the canon hellbie, I look at it as similar to the Hunchback IIC - stupid until you realize that it's pilots are desperate to make some kills, and don't rate getting their hands on something that includes strategic resources.

Or maybe the designers just had a shortage of endo & ferro at one point - I can see somebody doing a number of challenges for all those factories the green chickens or scary ponies had at one point in a bid to deny them the ability to build some designs. Having an excess of hellbie factories means that that particular dirty trick wouldn't work all that well.

Of course, then you run into the fact you're building hellbringers.

There are the apocryphal "MK I Omnis" that you  occasionally find some dark corner of the web.

[Weirdo]

The Mk I urban legend pops up every once in a while, though from what I understand, it has been disproven.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

At the very least, nobody who worked for FASA has ever said that they'd seen them.

And it's not like there aren't plenty of other mechs whose appearances don't match their stats.

[Ghost_msl]

The Mk I urban legend pops up every once in a while, though from what I understand, it has been disproven.

Well, tbh the Mk 1s do resemble the art work alot more than the ones that were printed in the original - the LRMs on the MadCat for example, match a LRM 15wA5 alot more LRM20.

[Empyrus]

Well, tbh the Mk 1s do resemble the art work alot more than the ones that were printed in the original - the LRMs on the MadCat for example, match a LRM 15wA5 alot more LRM20.

I once figured that using LRM-15s, one could add that extra pulse laser as described in first book of Blood of Kerensky trilogy and match the original artwork with just 15 LRM tubes per "ear". While the modern explanation is undoubtedly that Vlad used a customized configuration, i keep wondering.
Then there's that Stackpole used wrong names for a "Nova" (description matches Stormcrow) and an "Executioner" (evidently a Dire Wolf).
So, i'm thinking yes, the Omnis could have had different loadouts for their Prime (and thus sources of art) configs (assuming art followed configs rather than the other way around), and perhaps even some names got moved around, before getting finalized.
But unless someone comes up with proof, this is just speculation. It was so long ago.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Stackpole had a tendency to play fast and loose with mechs' weapon loadouts regardless of whether they were omnis or not.

[Empyrus]

Stackpole had a tendency to play fast and loose with mechs' weapon loadouts regardless of whether they were omnis or not.

Never noticed such in his books. More like he was careful about being accurate to stats. I have heard he actually simulated combat with TT rules and then used results in his books, with plot appropriate fudging. But perhaps I'm forgetting some examples or mixing up authors.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

In his later books he had a tendency to just write mechs as having pulse lasers and gauss rifles.  There were a few fights I can recall where he apparently forgot which mechs had anti-missile systems and had them appearing on mechs that did not possess them while not having them on mechs that should have.  But all that's really off topic for the Loki so if we want to discuss it further we should probably start a new thread.

[Jellico]

It is not like the early 1990s didn't have its fair share of glass cannons on both sides of the tech divide. All of the 3050 Clantech reeks of the L1 design ethic floating around at the time rather than designing to match the capabilities of the tech.

[SteelRaven]

Hate to be the one to necro post but people can't stop talking about the Hellbringer in other MotW post.

As I may have posted in the past, I have killed Assault mechs with the Hellbringer Prime so it has earned a place in my heart. No, it's not a Timber Wolf A (which is damn near perfect IMO) you need to be a sneaking bastard in a Hellbringer to save what little armor you have but it's electronic warfare package helps you allot in that aspect allot if you know how to use it.

That said, the lack of armor doesn't give you allot of room for mistakes. Why most configuration give you at the very least one keep-the-hell-away-from-me range weapon with the exception of the D "Die Battle Armor, die die die!!!" configuration. Have good aim and keep your enemy at range (or get another mech)
 

[Colt Ward]

Does the Hellbringer Prime using Ghost Targets help it survive?  Otherwise, its too bad its the only one with a ECM unit . . . can the Watchdog system do Ghost Targets?  I could not find anything saying either way.

[Weirdo]

Yes and yes.

[glitterboy2098]

Ghost Targets would certainly help the mech live up to its name, in either system.

[Jellico]

I sometimes get the feeling FASA had very different ideas for electronics compared to how they ended up. That whole TRO3050 period is full of oddly suboptimal uses of electronics.

[SteelRaven]

Fasa loved suboptimal designs as a whole. Considering the communities love of the Urbie and Charger, I'm sure they felt justified.

[Scotty]

There's a decent chance that FASA's designers literally just weren't very good at it, too.  We've had 35 years (and at least a couple new rulebooks) to figure out every way it could have been done better, and in the Clans' heydey of the late 80s/early 90s I don't think anyone was sitting down to figure out how the specific efficiency of engine size versus 'Mech tonnage worked.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

And they were doing it by hand.

[Greatclub]

I don't think anyone was sitting down to figure out how the specific efficiency of engine size versus 'Mech tonnage worked.

I guarantee at least the fans were. [raises hand]

I'd be surprised if the designers weren't.

They just did theme units anyway.

[Jellico]

A look at the magazines shows people knew what was what.

Looking at some of the base assumptions of TRO3050 I half believe someone thought the Solaris rulesets would become mainstream. 

[jymset]

Looking at some of the base assumptions of TRO3050 I half believe someone thought the Solaris rulesets would become mainstream.

In the case of the Gargoyle Prime, most certainly.

[/threadjack]

[Jellico]

I don't know about threadjack. But it might help to rewire the Hellbringer with some of those nice rulesets in mind.

[Empyrus]

Looks like Solaris rules were published in 91, year after TRO 3050. Was the thing in planning stages during TRO 3050 development? If not, dueling performance would be accidental most likely.

[massey]

I think they knew where they were going with the Solaris rules.  Things probably weren't finalized yet, but I'd bet they had a rough idea how it was going to work.  I also remember reading something by one of the early Battletech guys, I don't remember if it was an interview in a game magazine or what, but he said that of course FASA made a lot of the canon designs inefficient.  That's why they included the mech construction rules, which was everybody's favorite part. 

And I also believe that FASA would have purposefully toned down some of the Clan designs.  A Loki with Endo-Steel and more armor, and no A-Pods and more heat sinks, would be a terror.  Especially against 3025 designs.  So they gave it a handicap, like they did a lot of the non-MadCat/Ryoken/Daishi omnis.  There's probably also some thinking that "they're the Clans!  They do crazy things!  Let's just throw some random weapons and equipment in there and not worry about it!"

I either use the Loki like I would use a Rifleman (park his butt in heavy woods at medium-long range and light people up), or without terrain I have him run on a diagonal to keep long range and I snipe.  If he's in woods, I am not afraid to go up the heat scale.  Lokis are designed to cook.  If I'm staying mobile, I'll only shoot 2 PPCs when I know my next move is going to break LOS or that I'm not going to be able to get the full TMM anyway (or if they just give me really easy shots, because screw it, I'm Clan).

It's pretty obvious that there are better designs out there.  But it's a lot of fun to take a mech without much armor and just chainsaw your way through a bunch of opponents.  With a little bit of luck and the right movement and terrain, a Loki Prime can blow through an entire 3025 lance.

[grimlock1]

A look at the magazines shows people knew what was what.

Looking at some of the base assumptions of TRO3050 I half believe someone thought the Solaris rulesets would become mainstream.

Are the solaris rules available anywhere?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Are the solaris rules available anywhere?

They're from the Solaris box set, which has been out of print for 25 years.

[UnLimiTeD]

According to Battletech logic, that means it should be around for at least another century.
Even without knowing them (or knowing very little of them, rather), I think I can imagine this pile of lunacy would do better there.

[GreekFire]

According to Battletech logic, that means it should be around for at least another century.
Even without knowing them (or knowing very little of them, rather), I think I can imagine this pile of lunacy would do better there.

You know, a modernized version of the Solaris rules could be fun...perhaps as part of the new RPG system that's being developed?