Author Topic: WSotW: Nightlord  (Read 22382 times)

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WSotW: Nightlord
« on: 01 November 2014, 10:17:19 »
Attention, feeble surface-dwellers! Galfrazz the Effluvient is pleased with your latest tribute of kittens and cheese, and has thus bade his unworthy slave bestow upon you the second-greatest gift of all; knowledge!

Tremble and Rejoice!


Nightlord Battleship

Appearing during the later years of the Golden Century, the Nightlord-class Battleship is an odd duck. Part battlewagon and part troop transport, this WarShip is very much a product of the culture that, er, produced it. (Shaddup.)

While smaller than many prior battleship classes(and exactly half the size of its direct descendant), the Nightlord is nonetheless a big boy. 1.2 megatons leaves a lot of room to play with, and the Raven scientists and technicians tasked with bringing this twisted mockery of science into existence did not disappoint. A sublight drive producing a 3/5 movement curve is typical for ships of this size, allowing a Nightlord's helmsman to put the vessel through the usual combat maneuvers, take damage and keep burning, and occasionally spring a nasty surprise.

An SI rating of 85 produces a frame as tough as the renowned Texas-class, but the Nightlord takes this a step further by boosting armor coverage, producing a ship capable of absorbing a whopping 2038 points of capital-scale damage, greater than any battleship built by the old League. The Nightlord isn't invincible by any means, but it can afford to slug it out. Heck, even a Mckenna's legendary broadside won't threshold this shell when bracketed all the way down. You wanna get through this, you have to have time to spare, or be willing to close. Durability like this is also handy in the post-Jihad era. Many of you aeroheads have already noted that sourcebooks describing post-Jihad eras have very restrictive Forced Withdrawal rules for WarShips, to reflect their rarity and their owner's unwillingness to sacrifice them. For example, FM: 3145 requires that WarShips withdraw as soon as even a single armor facing reaches 50% armor. When a single decent fighter strike can push most medium-sized ships to that point in one go, most ships are thus locked in to hit-and-run missions where they must accomplish their mission as quickly as possible before their orders force them to pull back. The sheer amount of armor on the Nightlord means that it has staying power, and will have much more time to perform its mission.

The Nightlord's weapons suite is similarly impressive, though many observers are more impressed by the eclectic nature of the gun decks than their effectiveness. Like most ships, NACs provide the bulk of a Nightlord's firepower, though they're oddly placed, with mismatched twin mounts in each side arcs, and a pair of singly-mounted cannons fore and aft. Secondary weapons are similarly odd, with a single Medium Naval Gauss Rifle in each arc, a Medium NPPC aimed out the bow, stern, and broadsides, and Naval Lasers arrayed much like the autocannons, mixed bays on the sides and a single mount on the nose and tail. People who are used to ships like the Texas and Mckenna will be disappointed that the Nightlord cannot bracket near as effectively as either older vessel, and with many weapons in low-damage bays, generating threshold crits will be difficult as well. A complete lack of missiles is also worrying, putting this battleship at a disadvantage in the opening stages of an engagement. The Nightlord's bizarre armament seems like a throwback to ship design circa 1900 or so, while the Texas and Mckenna bear a greater resemblance of HMS Dreadnought and her descendants. On the plus side, the Nightlord has more than enough heat sinks for handle the entire warload at once, so feel free to let 'em rip.

If the capital guns can best be described as weird, the Nightlord's conventional armament at least is very tightly focused. Nothing but ER Large Lasers in all directions and ER PPCs on the quarter-arcs are found here, mounted in twin turrets that means each bays has good range, and hits hard enough to generate crits a fighter squadron. Getting rid of enemy fighters this way will be time-consuming, but then again, it's not like they'll be eating through your hide anytime soon either.

As a Clan WarShip the Nightlord also has the expected Lithium-Fusion battery for strategic mobility, though at this time I cannot confirm the presence of an HPG, as 3057r does not mention one, and I don't have access to Record Sheets: AT2 at this moment. I suspect that any future publication of the Nightlord will probably incorporate one, so I wouldn't make any assumptions regarding this bit of kit.

Twenty fighters and four DropShip collars is a serviceable if underwhelming parasite craft wing, and a spacious cargo bays certainly serves the ship well both on long voyages and for supporting other vessels, but what makes the Nightlord truly stand out as a WarShip is what else is carried within that hull. WarShips carrying ground troops are hardly a new thing, but the Nightlord takes this to an extreme, as a hundred Battlemech cubicles and quarters for five hundred armored Elementals represents a full GALAXY of troops. Other troop-carrying WarShips might be able to drop the vanguard of an invasion or nick-of-time reinforcements, but the Nightlord's complement is fully capable of seizing major worlds without outside assistance. Unless a world is very heavily defended, simply putting your Nightlord in orbit transfers ownership over to you. You've garrisoned the place, all that's left is some running and screaming dirtside.

All this may at first glance look like an underwhelming ship with a rarely-used schtick, but if you look at the Nightlord in the context of Clan-style warfare, it starts to make a lot more sense. Many Clans pay plenty of attention to the orbital side of interstellar warfare, and some focus on it almost to the exclusion of all else, but the nature of their society means that all Clans primarily gain or lose resources in one way; ground combat using 'Mechs. The Nightlord is designed from the keel out to win the 'mech fight before the 'Mechs even hit the dirt. That large number of smaller bays may be ill-suited to a Star League-style fleet engagement, but they are very good at blowing up DropShips. A Nightlord defending a world can dive straight into the midst of an incoming flotilla and engage multiple troop transports simultaneously, even while reserving a few of the larger bays for dealing with WarShip escorts. They many not kill said escorts quickly, but remember: That armored hide means you're the one with time, not the other guy. Driving off the escorts and vaporizing even half a dozen DropShips can end a major assault before it even starts.

On the offense, the Nightlord is simply a one-ship planetary assault. Charge straight for a world, trust in your guns and armor to get you through the defenses, then drop overwhelming force on the planet below. In those rare situations when orbital support is called for, those numerous small energy bays make this vessel well suited to provide precise tactical support that won't lay waste to the world you're trying to take(or more importantly, won't gut your own formations even with missed shots). Obviously you can't land to pick up the troops again after your game of Grand Theft Planet is over, so be sure to bring at least a few transport ships to pick up the troops(and any loot) again afterwards. Given the kind of high-excitement missions that are going to call for a Nightlord, I'd go for durability over carrying capacity. Ships that can move your entire Galaxy back up in one go won't help if they get shot down, while a ship that can survive getting into scraps will be more useful, even if you're only moving a Trinary at a time. Similarly, consider carrying some Kirghiz as part of your fighter complement, to give you more flexibility in deploying and retrieving Elementals. Of course you don't need any such ships when assaulting spaceborne objectives, as your troops can simply jump out any convenient airlocks/bays doors, and that kind of complement is more than enough manpower to secure several asteroids, space stations, or ships.

If you find yourself stuck in a basic ship-to-ship fight in a Nightlord, don't despair. While this ship is nowhere near as efficient a ship-killer as other battleships, it still holds that title for good reason. Nightlord tactics are not subtle at all, and can be summed up very succinctly: Close and hose. You're weak at range, so get in close. You've got a crazy-overbuilt power grid, so get right into the middle of the other guy's fleet, and fire in all directions. Not only will this greatly increase the amount of damage you're putting out each turn, incoming fire will be less effective, because it will be spread over many more armor facings Finally, I don't care who you are, having a megaton of metal fly straight at you with every intention of dragging you into a phonebooth slugfest is damned unnerving. If you really want to mess with people, make sure you've stocked at least some of those troop compartments, and then make a show of trying to get into their hex whenever possible. Boarding actions are difficult at the best of times, triply so when done without the benefit of assault shuttles, but that doesn't change the fact that nobody wants to find themselves flying through a cloud of five hundred Elementals, especially ones that are cranky because they've just been chucked out of a perfectly good spaceship. 'Mechs are much less useful in this role, but they can still function as slightly-mobile minefields in a pinch. (You want to put an enemy between a rock and a hard place, fly directly at some immobile target they're tasked with protecting(JumpShips, space stations, a rock, etc), and drop a few Trinaries of spacemechs. Boom, they're suddenly forced to split their attention between stopping those 'Mechs from landing on their station/etc, and your still fully-mobile battleship.

(Warning: The high risks being taken by your ground-pounders on missions like these will NOT endear them to you, at least not the ones worth endearing. Recommend staying away from the GROPOS decks for a few days after pulling one of these tricks, or scraping together the cash to buy them a LOT of beer.)

Defeating a Nightlord is...difficult. That armor is the biggest obstacle, as fighting at long range will either take forever because your bracketed bays aren't critting anything, or your nonbracketed bays won't be hitting nearly as often. On the upside, his bays are both nonbracketing and individually small, so the Nightlord's damage output at very long range will be unimpressive. Keep the distance, and gradually wear him down. If you have large numbers of either, a fighter or missile-focused strike is also a good idea, as the Nightlord is ill-equipped to defend against such attacks and returning the favor is similarly difficult. In cases, focus your firepower. Don't bother surrounding a Nightlord, as that does nothing but dilute your attacks across more armor facings and greatly increase the number of guns he can point at any of your units at once. You can beat a Nightlord easily if you have enough time, but if he sets things up right, time is something you won't have.
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Adgar76

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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #1 on: 01 November 2014, 12:04:24 »
Great article! I'm a bit surprised that you glossed over the infamous lawndarting abilities of the class  ;D
However, I have to ask: WHICH is the greatest gift of all?

Weirdo

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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #2 on: 01 November 2014, 12:23:31 »
Cheese! 8)
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Alan Grant

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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #3 on: 01 November 2014, 13:05:50 »
I feel like someone (probably in Clan Snow Raven) said, "We're running out of Texas-class hulls, lets design a new battleship...oh....by the way..the Council decided it also needs to be able to be a troop transport....so make that happen."


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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #4 on: 01 November 2014, 16:17:57 »
Ugly (visually and in terms of weapons, but that's just my opinion) and effective.

Correct me if I'm wrong but there aren't many, if any, left in the 3145 era? The Bears lost theirs, the Falcons threw theirs away (though admittedly very badly damaged) and I can't remember if there were any left in the Homeworlds after the Reavings.

Diablo48

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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #5 on: 01 November 2014, 16:19:20 »
You know, these ships seem exceptionally well suited to the post-Jihad era.  There are almost no heavy ships left at that point so the poor thresholding is not a big deal, and the thick armor means that it is essentially immune to the smaller ships that it will actually be facing while it piles into them and lashes out in every direction at once.  The huge troop bays also mean it is impossible to board so that avenue of bypassing the armor is out, and it should also be able to survive small nuclear weapons in a pinch so there is really no good way of dealing with it.


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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #6 on: 01 November 2014, 17:43:56 »
Correct me if I'm wrong but there aren't many, if any, left in the 3145 era? The Bears lost theirs, the Falcons threw theirs away (though admittedly very badly damaged) and I can't remember if there were any left in the Homeworlds after the Reavings.

As far as I can tell, there are only two left: the CSR Lynn Mckenna and the CSA Absolute Truth.


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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #7 on: 01 November 2014, 18:29:30 »
Kojack is right, the CSR Lynn Mckenna is the last known one in the Inner Sphere, possible the Star Adder's Absolute Truth may have survived nearly century of service in Clan Space.

However, we don't know if the Terror of the Deep is really gone. It did survive the Jihad.  It maybe out of sight, possible in the Sea Fox's Periphery holdings in mothballs.  Since they can't use offensive combat ships in the Inner Sphere, doesn't mean they disposed of it.  least not what we know of anyways.
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VhenRa

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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #8 on: 01 November 2014, 21:24:52 »
CSR Lynn McKenna is Terror of the Deep.


Remember, the Ravens traded warships with the Sharks and guess what class of warship the Ravens gained in the trade? A Nightlord.. That pretty much means by definition it's Terror of the Deep.
« Last Edit: 01 November 2014, 21:33:47 by VhenRa »

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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #9 on: 01 November 2014, 22:17:58 »
As far as I can tell, there are only two left: the CSR Lynn Mckenna and the CSA Absolute Truth.

Would that make the Lynn McKenna and the Rasalhague the only two functional battleships left in the IS, or did I miss one somewhere?  If so, that would be a major strategic problem for everyone else given the close ties between the Bears and Ravens and the fact that there is no good way for anyone else to challenge those monsters.


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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #10 on: 02 November 2014, 01:42:07 »
Would that make the Lynn McKenna and the Rasalhague the only two functional battleships left in the IS, or did I miss one somewhere?

Yup, those are the only two in the IS. Of course, their existence probably has everyone so scared that the moment one of them goes into action, anyone who feels threatened by them would probably give them the same treatment as Ursa Major received - an all-out campaign focused on its destruction.
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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #11 on: 02 November 2014, 02:52:46 »
The Nightlord reminds me of Muhammad Ali. The rope-a-dope Ali, not the float like a butterfly and sting like a bee Ali.

I am of a different school to Weirdo. To me there is no such thing as a cheap WarShip. You have all that reach and you should be using it. While I acknowledge the effectiveness of brawling, it is also a dumb play unless there is an easy victory in reach. Eg, smash the carriers and run.

Having played with the Nightlord I strongly suspect is was very carefully balanced by play testing for BattleSpace when everything shared the same range brackets and standoff was basically impossible.  Much like the Texas it is all about surviving the Armour:Firepower ratio which is does. Remarkably well considering a McKenna has twice the firepower at 25 hexes.

The lack of docking collars is probably the most criminal thing about this ship. In some ways this is a battle cruiser rather than a battleship. The theoretical Clan use described by Weirdo is probably correct, but the typical BattleSpace lack of small craft is a major problem. Also I am not sure whether or not the Battle Armor and BattleMechs can be combat dropped by the Nightlord (it has varied according to ruling) meaning they have to go through the bottleneck of the DropShips.

In AA terms the Nightlord is abysmal. The only thing putting it in the top 20 is its armour. In throw weight terms (how it helps others beyond being a punching bag) its in the top 50 of the 100 odd WarShips in existence. A Zechetinu II outguns it.



For all of that the best use of a Nightlord I have seen remains the pairing of Ursa Major with whatever Leviathan II was present that week. Huge cargo bay and armour to survive a fire fight while the real battleship does the heavy lifting. Notably Ursa Major survived Dieron while Leviathan did not. Says volumes about this battleship.

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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #12 on: 02 November 2014, 10:59:34 »
Also I am not sure whether or not the Battle Armor and BattleMechs can be combat dropped by the Nightlord (it has varied according to ruling) meaning they have to go through the bottleneck of the DropShips.

They can, no question about it. StratOps is very clear on it.
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Diablo48

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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #13 on: 02 November 2014, 11:40:27 »
Yup, those are the only two in the IS. Of course, their existence probably has everyone so scared that the moment one of them goes into action, anyone who feels threatened by them would probably give them the same treatment as Ursa Major received - an all-out campaign focused on its destruction.

And given that object lesson and the close ties between the two Clans, it is entirely possible they could be deployed together with additional support to create a functionally unstoppable task force.

The Nightlord reminds me of Muhammad Ali. The rope-a-dope Ali, not the float like a butterfly and sting like a bee Ali.

I am of a different school to Weirdo. To me there is no such thing as a cheap WarShip. You have all that reach and you should be using it. While I acknowledge the effectiveness of brawling, it is also a dumb play unless there is an easy victory in reach. Eg, smash the carriers and run.

The Nightlord is fairly well suited to doing exactly that thanks to its LF battery and ability to fire everything in every direction at all times so it may well have been a major design consideration.

[/quote]The lack of docking collars is probably the most criminal thing about this ship. In some ways this is a battle cruiser rather than a battleship. The theoretical Clan use described by Weirdo is probably correct, but the typical BattleSpace lack of small craft is a major problem. Also I am not sure whether or not the Battle Armor and BattleMechs can be combat dropped by the Nightlord (it has varied according to ruling) meaning they have to go through the bottleneck of the DropShips.[/quote]

The lack of docking collars is definitely a problem, although even one of the big carrier DropShips will give it a very respectable combined ASF wing and the Nightlord's cavernous cargo bays will barely even notice the extra fighters they have to support so it is not a huge deal, especially when you can drop your ground forces directly from the WarShip to avoid the need for a large 'Mech transport fleet.

Quote
In AA terms the Nightlord is abysmal. The only thing putting it in the top 20 is its armour. In throw weight terms (how it helps others beyond being a punching bag) its in the top 50 of the 100 odd WarShips in existence. A Zechetinu II outguns it.

The use of the anti-ASF mode on the NLs should help with that some, although any battleship should really be the heart of a full task force so it should have friends on hand to help out while its thick armor holds off the enemy.

Quote
For all of that the best use of a Nightlord I have seen remains the pairing of Ursa Major with whatever Leviathan II was present that week. Huge cargo bay and armour to survive a fire fight while the real battleship does the heavy lifting. Notably Ursa Major survived Dieron while Leviathan did not. Says volumes about this battleship.

Honestly, that says more about how scary a Leviathan is than anything else when you are willing to ignore another battleship to bash your way through its stupidly thick armor.


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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #14 on: 03 November 2014, 17:39:17 »
Side note rather than being in-universe logic, but in the original BattleSpace rules, all those CERLL and CERPPC batteries were absolutely nasty. Back in those days, everything used the same range bands and there was no thresholding.

I agree that more collars would have been a very good thing, but obviously replacing that with mech cubicles is more in line with the clan dueling system. Either way, it did feel a little designed-by-committee, even back in the 90's.

Excellent article.

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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #15 on: 03 November 2014, 22:08:51 »
But is it a creature of  the night?  :D

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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #16 on: 03 November 2014, 22:37:41 »
I agree that more collars would have been a very good thing, but obviously replacing that with mech cubicles is more in line with the clan dueling system. Either way, it did feel a little designed-by-committee, even back in the 90's.

Excellent article.

Honestly, you would need far too many DropShips to match that assault capacity and would still loose a lot of force survivability in the process so there is no way it would be practical.  The Nightlord may be a battleship, but it is much more focused on planetary assault than aerospace superiority (that would be the job of something like a McKenna) so you have to analyze its capabilities in that light and plan on giving it another heavy hitter to back it up if you expect serious naval resistance.

The other way to look at it is that you use the Nightlord as the planetary assault element of a naval formation because it is much better suited to that job than just about anything else, and it makes a great distraction for the modern fleets of combat DropShips and carriers with its imposing size and thick slabs of armor which further enhances its value.


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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #17 on: 04 November 2014, 00:22:37 »
Facing a Nightlord I want a Quixote and bearings launch missiles. I don't want to even get to Extreme range on this. Just sit very far away and plink with missiles that get critical hit rolls.
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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #18 on: 04 November 2014, 01:19:43 »
The more talk of the Nightlord's planetary assault capability, the more it makes me think of an Imperial Star Destroyer, which are supposed to carry ground forces sufficient to assault, capture, and garrison your average planet, even without threatening the inhabitants with "Base Delta Zero" or the like.
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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #19 on: 04 November 2014, 08:04:10 »
Given the expense of drop collars and dropships, and how relatively cheap cargo space for even a hundred Mech cubicles are, does it seem like using a Nightlord to carry Mechs is actually a cost saving?

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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #20 on: 04 November 2014, 08:52:38 »
The more talk of the Nightlord's planetary assault capability, the more it makes me think of an Imperial Star Destroyer, which are supposed to carry ground forces sufficient to assault, capture, and garrison your average planet, even without threatening the inhabitants with "Base Delta Zero" or the like.
My thoughts exactly. That, and as Weirdo accurately wrote, it's essentially Clan naval doctrine (under zellbrigen rules anyways) condensed into one single WarShip.

Of course, there are drawbacks.
The first, like others wrote, is that the Nightlord suffered from rule changes that blunted its armament a bit. (My impression at least - I've not played a BattleSpace game in two decades.)

The other problem is double-layered:

The Nightlord is a Jack-of-all-Trades design, and that usually means it excels at none of its multiple roles. Its vaunted combat drop capacity could probably equally well be achieved by a Star Lord carrying assault DropShips, at a fraction of the cost. This is a balancing question - the DropShips are individually weaker and more easily destroyed by powerful opposition (WarShips), but the presence of a Nightlord-sized space superiority WarShip would also protect them that much better. It boils down to putting all eggs into one well-armed and very well armored basket, for a hefty extra cost. Also, the logistics of combat dropping from a Nightlord mean its planetary assault capacity is pretty much one-shot, unless there's a support fleet. After all, would you want to leave your frontline troops as garrison after they took the planet? The Nightlord and its troop complement are good for taking a planet, but not so much for holding it. Which means you do need a supply train with a PGC or something after all, and a lot of suitable DropShips to get your shock troops back on board.

On top of excelling at nothing, the secondary problem is that the Jack-of-all-Trades concept of the Nightlord is tailored for zellbrigen-style warfare. The ship is a very straightforward design and not very flexible. Zellbrigen has been in a steady decline since 3052 if you ask me, and the "conservative" Clan elements have a tendency for hypocrisy that makes a mockery of zellbrigen so much that you could effectively toss it out of the airlock anyways.
Which is to say, the Nightlord is a Jack-of-all-Trades for a niche of warfare that's getting ever smaller, and I think this design has more problems adapting to all-out warfare than others. Building and maintaining a 1.2 million ton WarShip is just too much of a commitment to squander the effort on what ultimately is not a very efficient design, ton-for-ton.
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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #21 on: 04 November 2014, 15:02:28 »
Is it really surprising though? The <i>Nightlord</i> is probably just as much of a status symbol/symbol of Snow Raven Superiority as it is a battle-worthy Warship. Look at when it was designed and built. 2932. Back well before the invasion of the IS, when the Clans paid a little bit more lip service to the traditions that they they were supposed to follow, like Zellbrigen and Bidding.

Sure, you could show up with DropShips on a <i>Star Lord</i> like everyone else, but you're Clan Snow Raven, you're the Aerospace Clan, and while everyone shows up with DropShips and a JumpShip, you show up with a WarShip. When the defenders choose a location for the Trial, instead of landing DroShips and marching troops out, you combat drop your troops from your WarShip.

You're not worried about loading your troops up in a DropShip and using them to redeploy to chase down a planetary militia. You know exactly what you're facing, and you know where. You're not worried about long term redeployments and getting caught by forces coming to the rescue, because that's not how Clan warfare worked back in the 2930s (or wasn't supposed to).

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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #22 on: 04 November 2014, 18:23:47 »
The Nightlord is a Jack-of-all-Trades design, and that usually means it excels at none of its multiple roles. Its vaunted combat drop capacity could probably equally well be achieved by a Star Lord carrying assault DropShips, at a fraction of the cost. This is a balancing question - the DropShips are individually weaker and more easily destroyed by powerful opposition (WarShips), but the presence of a Nightlord-sized space superiority WarShip would also protect them that much better. It boils down to putting all eggs into one well-armed and very well armored basket, for a hefty extra cost.

That is sort of the point of an assault unit.  It has the armor and guns to smash its way through some respectable resistance on its own, and if the defenders are too much for it to handle the thick armor and modest armament means it does very well when working with escorts which will almost always pack a much higher firepower to durability ratio than the Nightlord.  Yes it is a lot more expensive, but it gives you capabilities you cannot replicate any other way.

Quote
Also, the logistics of combat dropping from a Nightlord mean its planetary assault capacity is pretty much one-shot, unless there's a support fleet. After all, would you want to leave your frontline troops as garrison after they took the planet? The Nightlord and its troop complement are good for taking a planet, but not so much for holding it. Which means you do need a supply train with a PGC or something after all, and a lot of suitable DropShips to get your shock troops back on board.

This is not at all a problem and is definitely not something an assault ship like the Nightlord should be worried about.  Its job is to smash its way through the main defenses and secure most major objectives in the face of substantial organized resistance.  Once that is done, the system is safe enough for other units to work relatively unmolested so you can bring in regular DropShips to move the troops a bit if you need to and cart the garrison unit into a well secured spaceport.  You may still want combat DropShips depending on the situation, but in Clan space the nature of trials means that a bunch of cargo ships like the ever-present Mule would be ideal for the job of hauling in reinforcements and supplies.

Quote
On top of excelling at nothing, the secondary problem is that the Jack-of-all-Trades concept of the Nightlord is tailored for zellbrigen-style warfare. The ship is a very straightforward design and not very flexible. Zellbrigen has been in a steady decline since 3052 if you ask me, and the "conservative" Clan elements have a tendency for hypocrisy that makes a mockery of zellbrigen so much that you could effectively toss it out of the airlock anyways.
Which is to say, the Nightlord is a Jack-of-all-Trades for a niche of warfare that's getting ever smaller, and I think this design has more problems adapting to all-out warfare than others. Building and maintaining a 1.2 million ton WarShip is just too much of a commitment to squander the effort on what ultimately is not a very efficient design, ton-for-ton.

Not really.  Even in major naval engagements like what we saw in the Jihad you can team the Nightlord up with something like a Leviathan II to clear out the defenders in one swift strike.  The Leviathan takes point in the naval engagement with the Nightlord at its side, and the instant things are at least mostly clear the Nightlord dumps a full Galaxy of troops on the planet to prevent them from digging in and trying to drive off incoming DropShips.  You just have to keep its limitations in mind and it is still an invaluable part of any assault force.

Also, things have gotten much better for the Nightlord recently because there are no major WarShips left to oppose them.  That means their bevvy of smaller batteries are now the optimal configuration because you do not need or want a 70-point bay to pop a DropShip and the Nightlord can engage the swarms of DropShips that are the primary threat much more efficiently than something designed to face other WarShips.


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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #23 on: 04 November 2014, 18:56:26 »
Side note- while the book doesn't mention any direct troop landings, one of these ships- the infamous Emerald Talon- captured the world of Zoetermeer during the Clan Invasion. Since troops were in short supply, Khan Crichell of the Jade Falcons sent the Emerald Talon and her consorts to do the job. Star Admiral Adrian Malthus threatened to wipe out the capitol with his ship's impressive power as the Jaguars had done at Turtle Bay, and Zoetermeer surrendered- even though, unbeknownst to the FedCom forces, the ship was forbidden to use its weaponry in such a fashion. Not often you see a Clanner bluff like that- I've often wondered what might have happened if they had called Malthus out on his bluff, how he would have responded.
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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #24 on: 04 November 2014, 20:58:26 »
I'm sure he would have leveled the Capital. Orders can be refuted through a trial after all.
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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #25 on: 29 August 2016, 11:53:15 »
Sorry for the Necro, all these unit of the week threads are new to me, since I am new to this forum.

I am, personally, a huge fan of warships with mech cubicles, I have liked all three of the ones I know about. I have to say, I think everyone has missed the point of the Nightlord:

I don't have the precise stats in front of me, but I wonder, does the nightlord have enough nose armor to "Land " it's troops itself? Take a nose dive through the atmosphere, obliterate anything it hits in an insane approximation of a self driven mass driver, and then have it's mechs walk out, do their job and walk back in? Then have it's dropships tow it back into space?  :D

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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #26 on: 29 August 2016, 12:46:25 »
Well... you're half right. We've seen a Nightlord used as a lawn dart, but... no, there's not much way to tow that thing aloft again.  #P
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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #27 on: 29 August 2016, 12:48:44 »
Well... you're half right. We've seen a Nightlord used as a lawn dart, but... no, there's not much way to tow that thing aloft again.  #P


Weirdo could probably come up with some sort of plan to do it but it might involve something ridiculous like towing it with some sort of Light Craft and surfing a nuclear explosion...
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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #28 on: 29 August 2016, 13:15:46 »

Weirdo could probably come up with some sort of plan to do it but it might involve something ridiculous like towing it with some sort of Light Craft and surfing a nuclear explosion...

maybe a couple million JATO units..  ;D

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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #29 on: 29 August 2016, 13:39:58 »
Well... you're half right. We've seen a Nightlord used as a lawn dart, but... no, there's not much way to tow that thing aloft again.  #P

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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #30 on: 29 August 2016, 13:43:32 »
Sorry for the Necro, all these unit of the week threads are new to me, since I am new to this forum.

I am, personally, a huge fan of warships with mech cubicles, I have liked all three of the ones I know about. I have to say, I think everyone has missed the point of the Nightlord:

I don't have the precise stats in front of me, but I wonder, does the nightlord have enough nose armor to "Land " it's troops itself? Take a nose dive through the atmosphere, obliterate anything it hits in an insane approximation of a self driven mass driver, and then have it's mechs walk out, do their job and walk back in? Then have it's dropships tow it back into space?  :D

A WarShip that enters atmosphere takes a LOT of damage upon atmospheric entry(can't really call it reentry in these cases). After that damage is recorded, it has exactly one extremely difficult chance to immediately return to space. If that attempt fails or is not attempted, it then takes ten space turns to fall to the ground. It cannot alter that course or speed in any way. When it hits the ground, it is auto-dead. Not merely destroyed or even high-speed pass shredded, but throw-the-record-sheet-in-the-fireplace-and-burn-it-with-thermite dead. This ain't Jakku, you're not salvaging anything from this, to say nothing of lifting it back up.

Units on the ground in the area are treated as if they'd been nuked, and I'm not talking about the piddly sub-kiloton stuff people like to use as a measuring stick when they brag that unit X can survive being nuked. I'm talking about a citybuster. I quite literally cannot imagine the forces that would be acting upon units and personnel inside the ship.

Don't think of a WarShip crash as Star Trek Generations, or even Independence Day. Instead, this is The Last Starfighter.


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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #31 on: 29 August 2016, 14:00:11 »
Worth remembering about Emerald Talon is that she was pretty much done for before Binetti set a course for Sudeten. She'd been battered through several campaigns, not the least of which was the fighting above that world, and even if she'd not crashed she'd have been laid up for many, many years- and without the assistance of the Ravens (because it's safe to say they're not friendly these days with the Falcons, particularly with Malvina!) there's no guarantee she could have ever been fully repaired.

Sad end to a good ship, but she certainly wasn't a viable combat asset anymore by the time of her demise anyway.
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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #32 on: 29 August 2016, 14:01:57 »
When it hits the ground, it is auto-dead. Not merely destroyed or even high-speed pass shredded, but throw-the-record-sheet-in-the-fireplace-and-burn-it-with-thermite dead. This ain't Jakku, you're not salvaging anything from this, to say nothing of lifting it back up.
I have to dispute that. Pg 65 strategic operations:
Quote
Otherwise it will fall one Atmospheric Row per space turn until it reaches the ground hex row, where it automatically crashes (see, p 81, TW)

Pg 81, TW:
Quote
The controlling player rolls 2d6, multiplying the result by 10 and then multiplying the result by the current velocity of the unit.

Later on you see it is doubled if it crashed into a building.

If you are intentionally (to use someone else's term) lawndarting, I assume you would hit the space atmosphere hex at 1 velocity, in which case you are taking a maximum of 120 damage. Survivable. I can't find anything about it being automatically destroyed, and if I am just missing it, I woudl appreciate you pointing me towards the relevant rules.

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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #33 on: 29 August 2016, 14:18:13 »
I also can't find anything preventing a tug from possibly towing it back to space. I doubt anything currently designed could manage it, but looking at the Naval Tug Adapter in Tactical Operations, it looks like I could design a 100,000 dropship capable of the thrust needed to tow a warship the size of the nightlord back up out of the atmosphere.

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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #34 on: 29 August 2016, 14:27:58 »
Sounds like the devs overlooked something nobody involved thought a player would try. Given the very first sentence on page 7, that's no mean feat. O0

My advice would be to ask about this in the Rules Forum, to see if this is indeed a hole in the rules, or if the precise wording is intentional.
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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #35 on: 29 August 2016, 14:29:41 »
Sounds like the devs overlooked something nobody involved thought a player would try. Given the very first sentence on page 7, that's no mean feat. O0

My advice would be to ask about this in the Rules Forum, to see if this is indeed a hole in the rules, or if the precise wording is intentional.
Hehe, I am crazy enough to try anything... on purpose even. If their is a rule for it, I will probably try to do it intentionally.

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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #36 on: 29 August 2016, 14:49:50 »
In this particular case, the good news is also the bad news- the ship re-entered in three (if memory serves) pieces, which means 1) less mass to haul skyward since it's in portions, and 2) it's in portions, so is it even worth the effort?

Granted, that's novel writing, and rules > fiction as far as Battletech is concerned, but if the hull weren't already borked from re-entry, having been torn to pieces in the process would have to certainly make the process a hell of a lot less feasible.
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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #37 on: 29 August 2016, 15:01:05 »
In this particular case, the good news is also the bad news- the ship re-entered in three (if memory serves) pieces, which means 1) less mass to haul skyward since it's in portions, and 2) it's in portions, so is it even worth the effort?

Granted, that's novel writing, and rules > fiction as far as Battletech is concerned, but if the hull weren't already borked from re-entry, having been torn to pieces in the process would have to certainly make the process a hell of a lot less feasible.

Well, in the case of a ship that has broken up I wouldn't think it was worthwhile to do. I imagine they had some velocity in them when they hit the atmosphere, and then the ground and that can ramp up the damage significantly.

Still if you were determined to pull it back up into orbit, I imagine you could use the tug rules for any pieces that had a functioning dropship hardpoint (Tugs have to dock in order to tug).


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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #39 on: 29 August 2016, 16:27:49 »
I like the Nightlord, it looks like a homegrown Clan ship that isnt a mod of a Star Leauge ship. Just dont like the boxy ness of the ship.
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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #40 on: 29 August 2016, 22:33:55 »
A clarification on damage imparted to a WarShip, when crashing, has also been posted in the rules question about using Tug Adapters.

In short, WarShips take a lot of damage in a crash, no matter how slow they hit the atmosphere.
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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #41 on: 29 August 2016, 22:38:46 »
Sad end to a good ship, but she certainly wasn't a viable combat asset anymore by the time of her demise anyway.
Oh no, see this is the Clans. Anything can be a viable combat asset if you are depraved enough and bluff just right.
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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #42 on: 29 August 2016, 23:30:52 »
Oh no, see this is the Clans. Anything can be a viable combat asset if you are depraved enough and bluff just right.
Dying ship? Fine we'll make it our munitions. One shot! Think of the glory you get if you hit the target.
This is why the clans don't use mass drivers. Their ships are self propelled mass driver ammunition.

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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #43 on: 30 August 2016, 00:05:53 »
I thought that wa the Fed Suns Navy philosophy, the Clans are supposed to abhor waste as much as they do dishonour
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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #44 on: 30 August 2016, 06:11:29 »
Well, in the case of a ship that has broken up I wouldn't think it was worthwhile to do. I imagine they had some velocity in them when they hit the atmosphere, and then the ground and that can ramp up the damage significantly.

Still if you were determined to pull it back up into orbit, I imagine you could use the tug rules for any pieces that had a functioning dropship hardpoint (Tugs have to dock in order to tug).

Wouldn't you be better served by sending recovery teams to the crash site to collect any surviving armor and equipment, loading that into a DropShip, and then re-using the equipment on another WarShip?

A WarShip that has crashed reminds me of a car that's had it's frame twisted and warped in a crash: Sure you can pull it straight, but are you really going to trust your family to it?
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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #45 on: 30 August 2016, 06:55:24 »
...the Clans...abhor waste...



These are the Clans we're talking about. Unless it suits their needs in declaring someone else dezgra(they need a new excuse each week for ignoring their own rules), waste is their absolute lowest priority.
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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #46 on: 30 August 2016, 08:39:04 »
(snip) Think of the glory you get if you hit the target.
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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #47 on: 30 August 2016, 09:00:57 »
A WarShip that enters atmosphere takes a LOT of damage upon atmospheric entry(can't really call it reentry in these cases). After that damage is recorded, it has exactly one extremely difficult chance to immediately return to space. If that attempt fails or is not attempted, it then takes ten space turns to fall to the ground. It cannot alter that course or speed in any way. When it hits the ground, it is auto-dead. Not merely destroyed or even high-speed pass shredded, but throw-the-record-sheet-in-the-fireplace-and-burn-it-with-thermite dead. This ain't Jakku, you're not salvaging anything from this, to say nothing of lifting it back up.

Units on the ground in the area are treated as if they'd been nuked, and I'm not talking about the piddly sub-kiloton stuff people like to use as a measuring stick when they brag that unit X can survive being nuked. I'm talking about a citybuster. I quite literally cannot imagine the forces that would be acting upon units and personnel inside the ship.

Don't think of a WarShip crash as Star Trek Generations, or even Independence Day. Instead, this is The Last Starfighter.


We die.


Yep! basically she'd be a 1.2  million tonne (sans what ever gets ripped/melted off) asteroid that would probably be barely recognizable as a ship before she hit the ground save maybe the aft quarter as the nose is certinally going to absorb a LOT of the heat of re-entry.  And it depends how she comes down, if she's nose first then fine, if she's belly flopping then she'd almost certinally tumbling out of control.  But she's still 1.2 million tonnes of metal moving at god knows what speed.

When she hits its going to be like a meteor impact.
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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #48 on: 30 August 2016, 11:47:09 »

Yep! basically she'd be a 1.2  million tonne (sans what ever gets ripped/melted off) asteroid that would probably be barely recognizable as a ship before she hit the ground save maybe the aft quarter as the nose is certinally going to absorb a LOT of the heat of re-entry.  And it depends how she comes down, if she's nose first then fine, if she's belly flopping then she'd almost certinally tumbling out of control.  But she's still 1.2 million tonnes of metal moving at god knows what speed.

When she hits its going to be like a meteor impact.
Only if the spine doesn't snap, then it will break apart. The silly thing is, I think that one would be able to salvage more useful parts/components if the ship breaks apart, instead of hitting the ground as one piece.
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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #49 on: 30 August 2016, 12:04:09 »
Don't think of a WarShip crash as Star Trek Generations, or even Independence Day. Instead, this is The Last Starfighter.


We die.

to be fair, in this case i suspect the image in people's head is Battlestar Galactica, season 3, episode 4: Exodus pt2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdkCpnGMyGw

« Last Edit: 30 August 2016, 12:08:21 by glitterboy2098 »

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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #50 on: 30 August 2016, 14:46:23 »
to be fair, in this case i suspect the image in people's head is Battlestar Galactica, season 3, episode 4: Exodus pt2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdkCpnGMyGw

Yeah, that scene made me itch with just how Hollywood it was. It breaks every rule of space ship fiction we've seen in almost every universe. Big ships don't work in Atmosphere, you can't do an FTL jump in a gravity well and more.

That's also my biggest beef with Star Trek reboot. Building the Enterprise on the ground!!! Seriously...
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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #51 on: 30 August 2016, 14:58:42 »
Yeah, that scene made me itch with just how Hollywood it was. It breaks every rule of space ship fiction we've seen in almost every universe. Big ships don't work in Atmosphere, you can't do an FTL jump in a gravity well and more.

That's also my biggest beef with Star Trek reboot. Building the Enterprise on the ground!!! Seriously...

It's been a while, but wasn't Enterprise-D built partially on the ground as well? I seem to recall a scene showing Galaxy-class ships under construction on the ground with orbital slipways above them. I'll see if I can find it later.
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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #52 on: 30 August 2016, 15:05:11 »
Yeah, that scene made me itch with just how Hollywood it was. It breaks every rule of space ship fiction we've seen in almost every universe. Big ships don't work in Atmosphere, you can't do an FTL jump in a gravity well and more.

That's also my biggest beef with Star Trek reboot. Building the Enterprise on the ground!!! Seriously...

To be fair, I think Abrams has clearly established that he never passed the high school sciences, and no one should expect more from him. I never actually watched the new BSG beyond 2 or 3 episodes at the beginning, so I can't really comment there.

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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #53 on: 30 August 2016, 15:11:23 »
I'm 100% fine with breaking established rules as long as its broken in consistent manner across that particular setting.  Halo, for example, breaks the "no space ships in atmosphere" into a million tiny pieces, and even though it uses "FTL in atmosphere" as the next best thing to a nuclear detonation in terms of destructive potential, FTL in atmosphere still works.
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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #54 on: 30 August 2016, 16:17:14 »
Yeah, that scene made me itch with just how Hollywood it was. It breaks every rule of space ship fiction we've seen in almost every universe. Big ships don't work in Atmosphere, you can't do an FTL jump in a gravity well and more.

That's also my biggest beef with Star Trek reboot. Building the Enterprise on the ground!!! Seriously...
I bet the Imperial Star Destroyers floating sedately above the ground in Rebels and Rogue One are horrible as well, though we could probably go all the way back to the Acclamators from AotC in that case.

For me, I'd be willing to let a Warship enter atmosphere, as long as it was done according to my strict rules.  The warship must come to a complete stop relative to the atmosphere.  It must orient itself vertically and burn engines to cancel the acceleration due to gravity.  It can then slowly back down into the atmosphere or rise up out of it.  It cannot do this at combat accelerations-one hex per ten rounds on the High Altitude chart at most.  It cannot sideslip and it cannot maneuver.  It can launch aerospace fighters and fire aft weapons.  That's it.  And of course, if it crashes, write it off.
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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #55 on: 31 August 2016, 00:21:03 »
Both Star Trek and Star Wars, unlike BattleTech, nBSG and Babylon 5 have "magic" shields on their ships which might change things


The warship crashed on Jakku in Force Awakens is detailed in a novel called Lost Stars and it was a controlled crash
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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #56 on: 31 August 2016, 04:16:50 »
I like the nightlord precisely because it isn't optimized, and its design does make sense for the culture that built it. 

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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #57 on: 31 August 2016, 09:48:44 »
Both Star Trek and Star Wars, unlike BattleTech, nBSG and Babylon 5 have "magic" shields on their ships which might change things

I was talking more about how the EU had for years this saw about how ISDs couldn't operate in atmo, it was impossible, they were too big...and then we had Acclamators and Ventators with landing gear and now the ISDs seem quite happy to float around just a kilometer above the ground or even docking with mooring masts.

Anyways, the Nightlord is a pretty 'take it or leave it' thing to me.  I guess I'll have to take it if I'm a clanner, but if I'm a honorless spheroid who gets one, I'll probably sell it back to the Clans for a Texas or a McKenna.  Or even just for a couple of cruisers.  It's those Battlemech bays-dropping from 200km up isn't my style, and just having twenty stars or most of a regiment waiting for the dropships to taxi them down doesn't suit me either.
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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #58 on: 31 August 2016, 11:37:44 »
I was talking more about how the EU had for years this saw about how ISDs couldn't operate in atmo, it was impossible, they were too big...and then we had Acclamators and Ventators with landing gear and now the ISDs seem quite happy to float around just a kilometer above the ground or even docking with mooring masts.

Anyways, the Nightlord is a pretty 'take it or leave it' thing to me.  I guess I'll have to take it if I'm a clanner, but if I'm a honorless spheroid who gets one, I'll probably sell it back to the Clans for a Texas or a McKenna.  Or even just for a couple of cruisers.  It's those Battlemech bays-dropping from 200km up isn't my style, and just having twenty stars or most of a regiment waiting for the dropships to taxi them down doesn't suit me either.
I thought it was specifically excepted that Acclamators and Venators were designed for atmo entry whereas ISDs weren't... oh well.

Yes well Texases and Mckennas don't grow on trees or at all, whereas a Nightlord at least could have been put into production. Look at the Mechbays as ancillary to the Nightlord's design: another 15,000 tons more or less may not mean as much to its anti-Warship capability, but as a strategic asset it affords a commander a few tricks almost no one else has: spare Mechs, additional repair facilities, and a battleship-sized guarantee that this elite couple of Clusters will make it from jump point to atmo at least.

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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #59 on: 31 August 2016, 11:42:03 »
Be store share a shape with ISDs, but little else.  They're gigantic troopships, not warships.  Not initially, at any rate.  Some later models differ.  But at any rate, the EU has long had very occasional exceptions to the "no capital ships in atmosphere" rule.  Remember the Lusankya being buried on Coruscant?
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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #60 on: 31 August 2016, 14:39:37 »
I was talking more about how the EU had for years this saw about how ISDs couldn't operate in atmo, it was impossible, they were too big...and then we had Acclamators and Ventators with landing gear and now the ISDs seem quite happy to float around just a kilometer above the ground or even docking with mooring masts.
And it was why the Imperial Navy kept some Victories around in EU; they could operate within atmosphere unlike the bigger, meaner, and modern ISD.
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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #61 on: 01 September 2016, 05:19:44 »
Yeah, that scene made me itch with just how Hollywood it was. It breaks every rule of space ship fiction we've seen in almost every universe. Big ships don't work in Atmosphere, you can't do an FTL jump in a gravity well and more.

That's also my biggest beef with Star Trek reboot. Building the Enterprise on the ground!!! Seriously...

Star Trek IV had a Bird of Prey enter warp speed in Earth's atmosphere...

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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #62 on: 03 September 2016, 11:13:13 »
Star Trek IV had a Bird of Prey enter warp speed in Earth's atmosphere...

Ruger
TOS had Enterprise travel in the atmosphere, at a height where a jet fighter could operate at.
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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #63 on: 06 September 2016, 13:09:31 »
TOS had Enterprise travel in the atmosphere, at a height where a jet fighter could operate at.

And it was having issues with doing that. Hull heat and hull stresses.
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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #64 on: 20 September 2018, 10:05:36 »
Are there any novel or short stories which feature the nightlord?

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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #65 on: 20 September 2018, 10:18:46 »
Are there any novel or short stories which feature the nightlord?
The CGB's Nightlord (Ursa Major?) appears very briefly at the end of Path of Glory, as the DCMS renegades make their ill-fated attack on Alshain, going like "haha you thought the Leviathan was out of action and the planet undefended, psych!"

then anything with the Emerald Talon
« Last Edit: 20 September 2018, 10:36:50 by Kidd »

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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #66 on: 20 September 2018, 10:31:30 »
Are there any novel or short stories which feature the nightlord?
There exactly four I know of:
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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #67 on: 21 September 2018, 18:25:45 »
I liked the nightlord Battleship. It was a good update to a warship for the clan, with all its flaws.
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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #68 on: 22 September 2018, 09:19:19 »
So, I am not an expert on the naval game by ANY stretch of the imagination.  There are few ships where I remember what was distinct about them, there are several ships where I don't remember what they even look like.  Several ships I can't distinguish weapons load, just because I didn't get into the game for the naval setting.  I do love that Warships exist, and wish I was more into them.

That being said, the Nightlord is one of the ships I REALLY like.  Just BECAUSE it is the USS Eminent Domain.
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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #69 on: 09 December 2018, 12:02:02 »
If a post reavings HW clan wanted to build a new galaxy or clan flagship would the nightlord be the first choice?

Can nightlords still be built? I know the ravens made them before...

Could  any of the other heavy hitters like the Texas or McKenna still be built new?


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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #70 on: 09 December 2018, 17:18:44 »
Depends on the faction. They need to be able to coordinate there resources if they can agree want build some a incredibly expenaive asset. Ghost Bears seem to be only 9ne with the zeal to build one. Though they opt go for built a upgraded Leviathan instead. Which seems to be essentially a upgrade of the Nightlord.
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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #71 on: 09 December 2018, 17:45:06 »
Well lets look at the options. Clans build only the Fredasa, York, Conqueror, Nightlord or Leviathan. I'll assume the plans
and at least one slip are available one way or another.

They'll build these ships or upgraded variants of them in the best balance between numbers and cost - Leviathan being what it is, maybe it's out of reach, but there are tradeoffs between building say 2 Nightlords versus 4 Yorks etc

That or sink funds into an all new Clan warship class or two, preferably a Castrum-killer that can liven things up a little. I'm sure we'd all like that.

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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #72 on: 09 December 2018, 19:06:42 »
Realistically new design would make sense verse something enemies know and having something more functional that meets current day needs of a Warship.  Space superiority and Fire Support.  However, CGL I suspect isn't going make new designs for part of the game which isn't used.

Nightlord would make sense if you had resources to make it.  If you don't have alot stuff, you want make sure the capital size ship you have is tough and can survive.
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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #73 on: 10 December 2018, 18:02:18 »
Well lets look at the options. Clans build only the Fredasa, York, Conqueror, Nightlord or Leviathan. I'll assume the plans
and at least one slip are available one way or another.

They'll build these ships or upgraded variants of them in the best balance between numbers and cost - Leviathan being what it is, maybe it's out of reach, but there are tradeoffs between building say 2 Nightlords versus 4 Yorks etc

That or sink funds into an all new Clan warship class or two, preferably a Castrum-killer that can liven things up a little. I'm sure we'd all like that.

Conquerors were rebuilds of Kimagures of which a few more were around as of the first two the Ravens refit, which means it might be a question if they could be new builds.  The difference between a York and a Conqueror for construction would be on a order of magnitude.  And unlike the Yorks, there would not be any current yards that made new build in Clan space nor would there be one to examine.
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Re: WSotW: Nightlord
« Reply #74 on: 11 December 2018, 06:16:36 »
Hmm, I think if a Clan decides to build a Nightlord, the clan will find the resources to do this.
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