WSotW: Nightlord

[Weirdo]

Sorry for the Necro, all these unit of the week threads are new to me, since I am new to this forum.

I am, personally, a huge fan of warships with mech cubicles, I have liked all three of the ones I know about. I have to say, I think everyone has missed the point of the Nightlord:

I don't have the precise stats in front of me, but I wonder, does the nightlord have enough nose armor to "Land " it's troops itself? Take a nose dive through the atmosphere, obliterate anything it hits in an insane approximation of a self driven mass driver, and then have it's mechs walk out, do their job and walk back in? Then have it's dropships tow it back into space?  :D

A WarShip that enters atmosphere takes a LOT of damage upon atmospheric entry(can't really call it reentry in these cases). After that damage is recorded, it has exactly one extremely difficult chance to immediately return to space. If that attempt fails or is not attempted, it then takes ten space turns to fall to the ground. It cannot alter that course or speed in any way. When it hits the ground, it is auto-dead. Not merely destroyed or even high-speed pass shredded, but throw-the-record-sheet-in-the-fireplace-and-burn-it-with-thermite dead. This ain't Jakku, you're not salvaging anything from this, to say nothing of lifting it back up.

Units on the ground in the area are treated as if they'd been nuked, and I'm not talking about the piddly sub-kiloton stuff people like to use as a measuring stick when they brag that unit X can survive being nuked. I'm talking about a citybuster. I quite literally cannot imagine the forces that would be acting upon units and personnel inside the ship.

Don't think of a WarShip crash as Star Trek Generations, or even Independence Day. Instead, this is The Last Starfighter.


We die.

[JadeHellbringer]

Worth remembering about Emerald Talon is that she was pretty much done for before Binetti set a course for Sudeten. She'd been battered through several campaigns, not the least of which was the fighting above that world, and even if she'd not crashed she'd have been laid up for many, many years- and without the assistance of the Ravens (because it's safe to say they're not friendly these days with the Falcons, particularly with Malvina!) there's no guarantee she could have ever been fully repaired.

Sad end to a good ship, but she certainly wasn't a viable combat asset anymore by the time of her demise anyway.

[Cryhavok101]

When it hits the ground, it is auto-dead. Not merely destroyed or even high-speed pass shredded, but throw-the-record-sheet-in-the-fireplace-and-burn-it-with-thermite dead. This ain't Jakku, you're not salvaging anything from this, to say nothing of lifting it back up.

I have to dispute that. Pg 65 strategic operations:

Otherwise it will fall one Atmospheric Row per space turn until it reaches the ground hex row, where it automatically crashes (see, p 81, TW)

Pg 81, TW:

The controlling player rolls 2d6, multiplying the result by 10 and then multiplying the result by the current velocity of the unit.

Later on you see it is doubled if it crashed into a building.

If you are intentionally (to use someone else's term) lawndarting, I assume you would hit the space atmosphere hex at 1 velocity, in which case you are taking a maximum of 120 damage. Survivable. I can't find anything about it being automatically destroyed, and if I am just missing it, I woudl appreciate you pointing me towards the relevant rules.

[Cryhavok101]

I also can't find anything preventing a tug from possibly towing it back to space. I doubt anything currently designed could manage it, but looking at the Naval Tug Adapter in Tactical Operations, it looks like I could design a 100,000 dropship capable of the thrust needed to tow a warship the size of the nightlord back up out of the atmosphere.

[Weirdo]

Sounds like the devs overlooked something nobody involved thought a player would try. Given the very first sentence on page 7, that's no mean feat. O0

My advice would be to ask about this in the Rules Forum, to see if this is indeed a hole in the rules, or if the precise wording is intentional.

[Cryhavok101]

Sounds like the devs overlooked something nobody involved thought a player would try. Given the very first sentence on page 7, that's no mean feat. O0

My advice would be to ask about this in the Rules Forum, to see if this is indeed a hole in the rules, or if the precise wording is intentional.

Hehe, I am crazy enough to try anything... on purpose even. If their is a rule for it, I will probably try to do it intentionally.

[JadeHellbringer]

In this particular case, the good news is also the bad news- the ship re-entered in three (if memory serves) pieces, which means 1) less mass to haul skyward since it's in portions, and 2) it's in portions, so is it even worth the effort?

Granted, that's novel writing, and rules > fiction as far as Battletech is concerned, but if the hull weren't already borked from re-entry, having been torn to pieces in the process would have to certainly make the process a hell of a lot less feasible.

[Cryhavok101]

In this particular case, the good news is also the bad news- the ship re-entered in three (if memory serves) pieces, which means 1) less mass to haul skyward since it's in portions, and 2) it's in portions, so is it even worth the effort?

Granted, that's novel writing, and rules > fiction as far as Battletech is concerned, but if the hull weren't already borked from re-entry, having been torn to pieces in the process would have to certainly make the process a hell of a lot less feasible.

Well, in the case of a ship that has broken up I wouldn't think it was worthwhile to do. I imagine they had some velocity in them when they hit the atmosphere, and then the ground and that can ramp up the damage significantly.

Still if you were determined to pull it back up into orbit, I imagine you could use the tug rules for any pieces that had a functioning dropship hardpoint (Tugs have to dock in order to tug).

[Cryhavok101]

Posted the question: http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=54315.0

[I am Belch II]

I like the Nightlord, it looks like a homegrown Clan ship that isnt a mod of a Star Leauge ship. Just dont like the boxy ness of the ship.

[Welshman]

A clarification on damage imparted to a WarShip, when crashing, has also been posted in the rules question about using Tug Adapters.

In short, WarShips take a lot of damage in a crash, no matter how slow they hit the atmosphere.

[Atlas3060]

Sad end to a good ship, but she certainly wasn't a viable combat asset anymore by the time of her demise anyway.

Oh no, see this is the Clans. Anything can be a viable combat asset if you are depraved enough and bluff just right.
Dying ship? Fine we'll make it our munitions. One shot! Think of the glory you get if you hit the target.

[Cryhavok101]

Oh no, see this is the Clans. Anything can be a viable combat asset if you are depraved enough and bluff just right.
Dying ship? Fine we'll make it our munitions. One shot! Think of the glory you get if you hit the target.

This is why the clans don't use mass drivers. Their ships are self propelled mass driver ammunition.

[DoctorMonkey]

I thought that wa the Fed Suns Navy philosophy, the Clans are supposed to abhor waste as much as they do dishonour

[mbear]

Well, in the case of a ship that has broken up I wouldn't think it was worthwhile to do. I imagine they had some velocity in them when they hit the atmosphere, and then the ground and that can ramp up the damage significantly.

Still if you were determined to pull it back up into orbit, I imagine you could use the tug rules for any pieces that had a functioning dropship hardpoint (Tugs have to dock in order to tug).

Wouldn't you be better served by sending recovery teams to the crash site to collect any surviving armor and equipment, loading that into a DropShip, and then re-using the equipment on another WarShip?

A WarShip that has crashed reminds me of a car that's had it's frame twisted and warped in a crash: Sure you can pull it straight, but are you really going to trust your family to it?

[Weirdo]

...the Clans...abhor waste...

These are the Clans we're talking about. Unless it suits their needs in declaring someone else dezgra(they need a new excuse each week for ignoring their own rules), waste is their absolute lowest priority.

[Kidd]

(snip) Think of the glory you get if you hit the target.

practically the unofficial Clan motto

[marauder648]

A WarShip that enters atmosphere takes a LOT of damage upon atmospheric entry(can't really call it reentry in these cases). After that damage is recorded, it has exactly one extremely difficult chance to immediately return to space. If that attempt fails or is not attempted, it then takes ten space turns to fall to the ground. It cannot alter that course or speed in any way. When it hits the ground, it is auto-dead. Not merely destroyed or even high-speed pass shredded, but throw-the-record-sheet-in-the-fireplace-and-burn-it-with-thermite dead. This ain't Jakku, you're not salvaging anything from this, to say nothing of lifting it back up.

Units on the ground in the area are treated as if they'd been nuked, and I'm not talking about the piddly sub-kiloton stuff people like to use as a measuring stick when they brag that unit X can survive being nuked. I'm talking about a citybuster. I quite literally cannot imagine the forces that would be acting upon units and personnel inside the ship.

Don't think of a WarShip crash as Star Trek Generations, or even Independence Day. Instead, this is The Last Starfighter.


We die.

Yep! basically she'd be a 1.2  million tonne (sans what ever gets ripped/melted off) asteroid that would probably be barely recognizable as a ship before she hit the ground save maybe the aft quarter as the nose is certinally going to absorb a LOT of the heat of re-entry.  And it depends how she comes down, if she's nose first then fine, if she's belly flopping then she'd almost certinally tumbling out of control.  But she's still 1.2 million tonnes of metal moving at god knows what speed.

When she hits its going to be like a meteor impact.

[Maingunnery]

Yep! basically she'd be a 1.2  million tonne (sans what ever gets ripped/melted off) asteroid that would probably be barely recognizable as a ship before she hit the ground save maybe the aft quarter as the nose is certinally going to absorb a LOT of the heat of re-entry.  And it depends how she comes down, if she's nose first then fine, if she's belly flopping then she'd almost certinally tumbling out of control.  But she's still 1.2 million tonnes of metal moving at god knows what speed.

When she hits its going to be like a meteor impact.

Only if the spine doesn't snap, then it will break apart. The silly thing is, I think that one would be able to salvage more useful parts/components if the ship breaks apart, instead of hitting the ground as one piece.

[glitterboy2098]

Don't think of a WarShip crash as Star Trek Generations, or even Independence Day. Instead, this is The Last Starfighter.


We die.

to be fair, in this case i suspect the image in people's head is Battlestar Galactica, season 3, episode 4: Exodus pt2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdkCpnGMyGw

[Welshman]

to be fair, in this case i suspect the image in people's head is Battlestar Galactica, season 3, episode 4: Exodus pt2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdkCpnGMyGw

Yeah, that scene made me itch with just how Hollywood it was. It breaks every rule of space ship fiction we've seen in almost every universe. Big ships don't work in Atmosphere, you can't do an FTL jump in a gravity well and more.

That's also my biggest beef with Star Trek reboot. Building the Enterprise on the ground!!! Seriously...

[JadeHellbringer]

Yeah, that scene made me itch with just how Hollywood it was. It breaks every rule of space ship fiction we've seen in almost every universe. Big ships don't work in Atmosphere, you can't do an FTL jump in a gravity well and more.

That's also my biggest beef with Star Trek reboot. Building the Enterprise on the ground!!! Seriously...

It's been a while, but wasn't Enterprise-D built partially on the ground as well? I seem to recall a scene showing Galaxy-class ships under construction on the ground with orbital slipways above them. I'll see if I can find it later.

[Cryhavok101]

Yeah, that scene made me itch with just how Hollywood it was. It breaks every rule of space ship fiction we've seen in almost every universe. Big ships don't work in Atmosphere, you can't do an FTL jump in a gravity well and more.

That's also my biggest beef with Star Trek reboot. Building the Enterprise on the ground!!! Seriously...

To be fair, I think Abrams has clearly established that he never passed the high school sciences, and no one should expect more from him. I never actually watched the new BSG beyond 2 or 3 episodes at the beginning, so I can't really comment there.

[Scotty]

I'm 100% fine with breaking established rules as long as its broken in consistent manner across that particular setting.  Halo, for example, breaks the "no space ships in atmosphere" into a million tiny pieces, and even though it uses "FTL in atmosphere" as the next best thing to a nuclear detonation in terms of destructive potential, FTL in atmosphere still works.

[Vehrec]

Yeah, that scene made me itch with just how Hollywood it was. It breaks every rule of space ship fiction we've seen in almost every universe. Big ships don't work in Atmosphere, you can't do an FTL jump in a gravity well and more.

That's also my biggest beef with Star Trek reboot. Building the Enterprise on the ground!!! Seriously...

I bet the Imperial Star Destroyers floating sedately above the ground in Rebels and Rogue One are horrible as well, though we could probably go all the way back to the Acclamators from AotC in that case.

For me, I'd be willing to let a Warship enter atmosphere, as long as it was done according to my strict rules.  The warship must come to a complete stop relative to the atmosphere.  It must orient itself vertically and burn engines to cancel the acceleration due to gravity.  It can then slowly back down into the atmosphere or rise up out of it.  It cannot do this at combat accelerations-one hex per ten rounds on the High Altitude chart at most.  It cannot sideslip and it cannot maneuver.  It can launch aerospace fighters and fire aft weapons.  That's it.  And of course, if it crashes, write it off.

[DoctorMonkey]

Both Star Trek and Star Wars, unlike BattleTech, nBSG and Babylon 5 have "magic" shields on their ships which might change things


The warship crashed on Jakku in Force Awakens is detailed in a novel called Lost Stars and it was a controlled crash

[Korzon77]

I like the nightlord precisely because it isn't optimized, and its design does make sense for the culture that built it. 

[Vehrec]

Both Star Trek and Star Wars, unlike BattleTech, nBSG and Babylon 5 have "magic" shields on their ships which might change things

I was talking more about how the EU had for years this saw about how ISDs couldn't operate in atmo, it was impossible, they were too big...and then we had Acclamators and Ventators with landing gear and now the ISDs seem quite happy to float around just a kilometer above the ground or even docking with mooring masts.

Anyways, the Nightlord is a pretty 'take it or leave it' thing to me.  I guess I'll have to take it if I'm a clanner, but if I'm a honorless spheroid who gets one, I'll probably sell it back to the Clans for a Texas or a McKenna.  Or even just for a couple of cruisers.  It's those Battlemech bays-dropping from 200km up isn't my style, and just having twenty stars or most of a regiment waiting for the dropships to taxi them down doesn't suit me either.

[Kidd]

I was talking more about how the EU had for years this saw about how ISDs couldn't operate in atmo, it was impossible, they were too big...and then we had Acclamators and Ventators with landing gear and now the ISDs seem quite happy to float around just a kilometer above the ground or even docking with mooring masts.

Anyways, the Nightlord is a pretty 'take it or leave it' thing to me.  I guess I'll have to take it if I'm a clanner, but if I'm a honorless spheroid who gets one, I'll probably sell it back to the Clans for a Texas or a McKenna.  Or even just for a couple of cruisers.  It's those Battlemech bays-dropping from 200km up isn't my style, and just having twenty stars or most of a regiment waiting for the dropships to taxi them down doesn't suit me either.

I thought it was specifically excepted that Acclamators and Venators were designed for atmo entry whereas ISDs weren't... oh well.

Yes well Texases and Mckennas don't grow on trees or at all, whereas a Nightlord at least could have been put into production. Look at the Mechbays as ancillary to the Nightlord's design: another 15,000 tons more or less may not mean as much to its anti-Warship capability, but as a strategic asset it affords a commander a few tricks almost no one else has: spare Mechs, additional repair facilities, and a battleship-sized guarantee that this elite couple of Clusters will make it from jump point to atmo at least.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Be store share a shape with ISDs, but little else.  They're gigantic troopships, not warships.  Not initially, at any rate.  Some later models differ.  But at any rate, the EU has long had very occasional exceptions to the "no capital ships in atmosphere" rule.  Remember the Lusankya being buried on Coruscant?