Harmony Gold legal case discussion thread

[BiggRigg42]

I wonder if PGI had to give HG a lot of money for this dismal with prejudice.

[ColBosch]

I wonder if PGI had to give HG a lot of money for this dismal with prejudice.

We'll never know.

[Sandslice]

I wonder if PGI had to give HG a lot of money for this dismal with prejudice.

The sales that HG are currently running on RT merch tell one of two stories:

- They could be seizing a chance to use the attention *we* have on the case to market RT to us in this manner; 
- Or they didn't get enough / any blood money from PGI and need to recover.

Or maybe a bit from each bucket.  But that's about as far into speculation as is reasonable, methinks.

[Feenix74]

Going back to the case and the correspondence from BW/Taksunoko to HG telling them to C&D the fan-made Robetech film. I am beginning to wonder if it has been presented in a different light by HG's lawyers than the original intention. What if the actual intent from BW/Taksunoko was them saying to HG, you do not have the rights to the 41, you need to stop even your Robotech fans from using the 41, if you do not get them to stop then we will take action against you and your fans?

The reason I ask is that if the situation was as HG tried to portray, then you would think that BW/Taksunoko would have come to the party and backed HG instead of ignoring them to the extent that HG's lawyers had to go for a letters rogatory as a "hail mary" to try to drag BW/Taksunoko into the case.

[ANS Kamas P81]

Well, they're certainly not getting any dollarydoos from Palladium with the cancellation of the Robotech license.  Maybe loss of income from licensing fees put a crimp in their ability to continue the suit.  After all, we only know that PGI and HG were in settlement negotiations - we all assumed it was HG pushing PGI over to a trapdoor, when maybe it was PGI that took advantage of HG's financial situation?

Again, we'll never know, which I suppose is best for the game.  One more unanswerable mystery.  What happened to the Minnesota Tribe?  Who killed(?) Arthur Steiner-Davion?  Why did HGUSA roll over in the lawsuit?  Are catgirls real?  Why is the thong red?!

[victor_shaw]

Well, they're certainly not getting any dollarydoos from Palladium with the cancellation of the Robotech license.  Maybe loss of income from licensing fees put a crimp in their ability to continue the suit.  After all, we only know that PGI and HG were in settlement negotiations - we all assumed it was HG pushing PGI over to a trapdoor, when maybe it was PGI that took advantage of HG's financial situation?

Again, we'll never know, which I suppose is best for the game.  One more unanswerable mystery.  What happened to the Minnesota Tribe?  Who killed(?) Arthur Steiner-Davion?  Why did HGUSA roll over in the lawsuit?  Are catgirls real?  Why is the thong red?!

"What happened to the Minnesota Tribe?"
Well take this with a grain of salt, but according to "Jihad secrets" PG. 118-123 They became "the Blood" a faction of Comstar/Word of Blake. :brew:

"Who killed(?) Arthur Steiner-Davion?"
The bombing was staged he lived and he became the Protégé of the Master. Now that you know WoB will be coming soon. :beatdown:

"Why did HGUSA roll over in the lawsuit?"
To protect their ability to bring more frivolous lawsuits in the future. As a court ruling that they did not have the rights would end their reign of terror. :rant:

"Are catgirls real?"
No. O:-)

"Why is the thong red?!"
need more info on this. >:D

 

[blackjack]

"What happened to the Minnesota Tribe?"
Well take this with a grain of salt, but according to "Jihad secrets" PG. 118-123 They became "the Blood" a faction of Comstar/Word of Blake. :brew:

"Who killed(?) Arthur Steiner-Davion?"
The bombing was staged he lived and he became the Protégé of the Master. Now that you know WoB will be coming soon. :beatdown:

"Why did HGUSA roll over in the lawsuit?"
To protect their ability to bring more frivolous lawsuits in the future. As a court ruling that they did not have the rights would end their reign of terror. :rant:

"Are catgirls real?"
No. O:-)

"Why is the thong red?!"
need more info on this. >:D

Cat Girls are real!!!! Just have to know the extra shady side of the Periphery........

[PreacherPatriot1776]

I wonder if PGI had to give HG a lot of money for this dismal with prejudice.

PGI didn't have to pay HG anything as the motion doesn't make a mention of a settlement as required by law. It says a stipulation combined with a dismissal with prejudice. Meaning that PGI told HG to get stuffed and agree to the deal that will leave all BT companies alone while removing HG's ability to sue under the grounds of they created/own big, stompy robots.

[ColBosch]

*snip*

Less of this. Much less.

[GarageBay9]

PGI didn't have to pay HG anything as the motion doesn't make a mention of a settlement as required by law. It says a stipulation combined with a dismissal with prejudice. Meaning that PGI told HG to get stuffed and agree to the deal that will leave all BT companies alone while removing HG's ability to sue under the grounds of they created/own big, stompy robots.

I was just about to ask - doesn't a settlement have to be approved by the judge and entered into the record, even if it's sealed?  Without that, it's seeming like there was... just the dismissal with prejudice.

[PreacherPatriot1776]

I was just about to ask - doesn't a settlement have to be approved by the judge and entered into the record, even if it's sealed?  Without that, it's seeming like there was... just the dismissal with prejudice.

They do as far as I know. I bet the stipulation was that PGI is willing to let HG walk away and never bother any BT producing company again.

[victor_shaw]

I was just about to ask - doesn't a settlement have to be approved by the judge and entered into the record, even if it's sealed?  Without that, it's seeming like there was... just the dismissal with prejudice.

Yes is does have to be filed.
Now the settlement itself will not show up to be viewed because it is not in public record.

[Fear Factory]

I don't see anything about a sealed stipulation or settlement so it's pointless to speculate.  The final document only says they're all paying their own fees, if I understand it correctly.  I'd say that's pretty generous considering that PGI could have gone the distance and it would have really hurt HG in the end.  It's still risky though.  Dismissal with prejudice is a big thing, exactly what PGI was hoping for, so it makes sense to pay less now to get it instead of risking it and losing it all.

They do as far as I know. I bet the stipulation was that PGI is willing to let HG walk away and never bother any BT producing company again.

Oye.  That's the whole point.  That's what "dismissal with prejudice" means, they can no longer bother any company on the list that makes their own "classics" or unique art.

[Frabby]

I think the agreed-upon dismissal with prejudice is standard procedure for settlements, and a technicality - really only an adjunct to whatever the parties agreed upon in the settlement (if anything; HG may simply have thrown the towel).

In any case, the "with prejudice" part only extends to HGs claims in this lawsuit, as per their Prayer for Relief in Docket 001. And that's a very narrow portion of the actual issue.
For all we know, unless the settlement covers this, nothing technically prevents HG from doing this all over again with regards to other 'Mechs that weren't part of this lawsuit.
(They would be facing the same problem - legal standing - again of course; but they wouldn't be precluded by the "with prejudice" part.)

[monbvol]

I think the agreed-upon dismissal with prejudice is standard procedure for settlements, and a technicality - really only an adjunct to whatever the parties agreed upon in the settlement (if anything; HG may simply have thrown the towel).

In any case, the "with prejudice" part only extends to HGs claims in this lawsuit, as per their Prayer for Relief in Docket 001. And that's a very narrow portion of the actual issue.
For all we know, unless the settlement covers this, nothing technically prevents HG from doing this all over again with regards to other 'Mechs that weren't part of this lawsuit.
(They would be facing the same problem - legal standing - again of course; but they wouldn't be precluded by the "with prejudice" part.)

Just to be clear every mech design produced/published by the second amended complaint by PGI/HBS/IMR/CGL are now untouchable by Harmony Gold.

Could Harmony Gold come back for new mechs designed/published after that point?  Technically yes but I really doubt even they would be that foolish with how little time is left on their license, especially with how vulnerable publicly available documents make their standing to bring such claims out to be.

[ColBosch]

Declaring settlements to the court is typical, but not required. If the settlement involved, say, a one-time payment in exchange for dropping the suit with prejudice, then there would be little reason to tell the court about it. The reason you tell the court is if you want to make sure it's on record because it involves ongoing interaction, such as recurring payments.

[Raeven]

HG saw a 3 million dollar windfall from HBS BattleTech Kickstarter numbers.  They thought they had it in the bag with Weisman's previous settlement agreement.  They stepped on their own feet starting the lawsuit and screwed themselves over in allowing the Tatsunoko settlement to be arbitrated in the states.

Like Bosch said, we will have to wait and see what the settlement really entails.  There is no guarantee that we will ever see any more of the unseen that aren't already in print or publication by the respected companies.  We will know when we start seeing the old 'Mechs in HBS or Catalyst products.  Until then, we can't say one way or another what was agreed to get HG to drop the lawsuit.

[monbvol]

Actually at this point I don't think it is when but what form the remaining mechs will take in terms of art.

[JPArbiter]

Just to be clear every mech design produced/published by the second amended complaint by PGI/HBS/IMR/CGL are now untouchable by Harmony Gold.

Could Harmony Gold come back for new mechs designed/published after that point?  Technically yes but I really doubt even they would be that foolish with how little time is left on their license, especially with how vulnerable publicly available documents make their standing to bring such claims out to be.

So this gets into some weird technical land.  Solid safe are the Warhammer, Marauder, Phoenix hawk, wasp, valkyrie, and archer cause all were included in published works.

The big fuzzy one is the rifleman, which we have only seen preview art for and a posting on deviant art. The stinger has ONLY ever been a deviant art post

The crusader has not bee redesigned yet and so it’s fate is up in the air, though it cou”d get a ground up redesign that makes it look more like, say the Black knight then the original macross art

Am I right on this, as far as dsputed designs go?

[Feenix74]

The Atlas, Shadow Hawk and Locust have also now been made safe with prejudice  ::)  :))

[Luciora]

Pretty sure HG only used those as examples to make infringement claims only as they were derived from Crusher Joe and Dougram, which are not Macross derived.

The Atlas, Shadow Hawk and Locust have also now been made safe with prejudice  ::)  :))

[abou]

Pretty sure HG only used those as examples to make infringement claims only as they were derived from Crusher Joe and Dougram, which are not Macross derived.

Incorrect, they compared them to the Armored Valkyrie, Spartan Destroid, and Glaug Officer's Pod directly.

[GarageBay9]

Incorrect, they compared them to the Armored Valkyrie, Spartan Destroid, and Glaug Officer's Pod directly.

One of the muddying issues with analyzing HG's claims is, as PGI pointed out in some correspondence posted, like, two threads ago, HG seemed to be of the mindset that any kind of war robot at all infringed on their IP.  Patently ridiculous?  Yes.  Did HG just go running with their tail tucked between their legs because it was so patently ridiculous?  Also yes.

[monbvol]

Another thing to keep in mind is that separate claims of infringing mechs were made against each company individually, not as a group.

Ultimately not only are the specified mechs cited as infringing safe for each company to use now even if we don't know the full terms/conditions, but ALL mechs that had artwork published by the second amended complaint.

So yeah the stuff that never actually got into a published work, and were only previews/preliminary works, Harmony Gold could potentially come after those next but as long they stay unpublished it does make Harmony Gold's case even harder as it makes it so Harmony Gold does have to prove it isn't valid fair use on top of being a copyright violation.

[ANS Kamas P81]

Assuming the confidential terms of the settlement don't read like a reverse version of the 1995? settlement, a la "and we will not make these claims again, period" - but we'll never know.  And honestly, worrying about what the exact terms of the settlement are is really not something the fans should concern themselves with.  Battletech's survived far worse, and this is probably one of the best things that could happen to the game.  It's not going anywhere.

[abou]

Guys, we need to stop using the term settlement here.

[JPArbiter]

Another thing to keep in mind is that separate claims of infringing mechs were made against each company individually, not as a group.

Ultimately not only are the specified mechs cited as infringing safe for each company to use now even if we don't know the full terms/conditions, but ALL mechs that had artwork published by the second amended complaint.

So yeah the stuff that never actually got into a published work, and were only previews/preliminary works, Harmony Gold could potentially come after those next but as long they stay unpublished it does make Harmony Gold's case even harder as it makes it so Harmony Gold does have to prove it isn't valid fair use on top of being a copyright violation.

So yeah 6 out of 10 are forever safe... i can kinda live with that. It becomes 7 if we all just universally agree the tro 3058 longbow was the first Nuseen albeit a generation before the nuseen initative.

[Feenix74]

I can live with the TRO3058 Longbow being the first nuseen.

[ANS Kamas P81]

Guys, we need to stop using the term settlement here.

Why?  That's what was negotiated between HGUSA and PGI, pursuant to HGUSA dropping its case against all defendants.

[abou]

Settlement implies payments and ongoing stipulations. As far as we can tell, there was none of that. Just an agreement to end legal proceedings. The word settlement wasn't even used in the last docket.