Author Topic: MotW Orochi  (Read 6907 times)

Firesprocket

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MotW Orochi
« on: 01 December 2018, 00:03:50 »
Without the Jihad the Orochi may have never seen the light of day.   While most industry was in some way affected by the chaos, Victory Industries, the Orochi’s manufacturer, made it through the conflict largely untouched.  With Luthien Armor Works main plant on Luthien in shambles and Independence Weaponry conquered by the Word of Blake during the Jihad the wheels were already in motion to upgrade the lines on Marduk to pick up lost production of those other worlds.  Nonetheless, the task of taking over design and production for likely the largest military producers in all of the Draconis Combine was monumental task.

The name Orochi has its basis in Japanese mythology of a multi-headed/tailed serpent which in some respects is similar to Hydra.  Such a fantastic beast seems awe inspiring and fitting name for a new battlemech that would replace DCMS stalwarts such at the Akuma, Naginata, and Atlas whose production was lost when the world of Quentin and home to Independence Weaponry were conquered by the WoB.   With all of those mechs in mind you would expect that Victory Industries would base their new design off of one of these machines.  Instead they based it off of that tried and true Starcorps Industries Longbow design!?

Weighing in at 90 tons the Orochi is a beast and no expense was spared in providing the very best proven and new technology proven through the fires of the Jihad.  Capable of flanking at the same speed as the Sunder and just as well protected makes the Orochi an assault mech worthy of those that came before it.   The Orochi OR-2I is armed with two Thunderbolt 20 launchers, a pair of Streak 4 launchers, and an ER Small Laser.  Victory installed only shoulder and upper arm actuators in the design allowing its arms to flip to the rear making any opposing pilot feel uncomfortable around an Orochi until it has been destroyed.

That combination is downright impressive as it manages to check off number of features found in most, if not all, the designs the DCMS could no longer produce.  Overall it represents a large improvement in protection with no loss in speed found in its inspiration the Longbow.  The firepower of the original design is still there, albeit, with a reduction in range of 90m which isn’t horrible.

The twin T-bolt 20s can be fired indirectly and the damage is no longer spread out like the parent design.  Instead they offer the same punch of a Class 20 auto cannon.  The Streak launchers allow for respectable firepower within the minimum range of the Thunderbolt launchers where not only are shots less accurate, their damage decreases as well.  It is worth nothing from the ground up, all major components of the design are produced at Victory Industries which allows for little if any delays in manufacture.

While all of the above items make for an outstanding design there are issues that the design team either chose to intentionally to overlook or not address.  An opposing AMS system has the potentially to play havoc with the modest damage that the Orochi’s Thunderbolt launchers produce.  It’s thus fortunate that the traditional enemies of the Dragon, the Federated Suns forgot that the AMS existed until they designed the Sortek Assault Craft.  At which point the Suns R&D forgot about them again until the Republic lowered their fortress walls to gift them mechs that had them!

The largest oversight though is the placement of all the design’s ammunition in the arms and or a decision not to include CASE to prevent a catastrophe.  While CASE II would make a sensible inclusion the technology was not an item in standard production outside of the newly christened Republic of the Sphere at the time of Orochi's development.  At the very least by choosing not to put the ammunition or CASE in the torso the design is more likely to suffer a total loss.

The other major issue the design suffers from is a lack of ammunition for its biggest weapons and far too much ammunition for its auxiliary weapons.   With half as many rounds available to the Thunderbolt launchers when compared to standard LRMs there is only enough ammunition for 90 second of continuous fire.  Once those rounds are depleted you are left with a 90 ton Whitworth.  The Streak 4 launchers have a staggering 50 rounds of ammunition which will probably never be used before the machine is destroyed.  The replacement of that additional ton of ammunition would have been better used toward CASE or additional ammunition for the T-bolt launchers.

The Orochi has one known, but yet to be fully disclosed, variant the OR-3K.  The Thunderbolt launchers are replaced by a pair of Silver Bullet Gauss rifles.  No other information is known about this particular model except that it was a refit and not a production model that was put into service to provide AA defense against am incursion to conquer the world by House Davion.  Such a design would require other modifications because of the fact the Gauss Rifles have a larger bulk than the Thunderbolt Launchers they are replacing.

Overall I believe the Orochi does many things well; however its endurance I find woefully lacking.  As noted it wouldn’t take many changes from the base design to improve upon that.  2 crit seeking SRMs make a modest amount of sense when used in tandem with 2 hole punching Thunderbolt.  I’d have preferred standard SRMs or MMLs for special munitions and the fictional troupe of not wanting my mechs hanging around after the Thunderbolt‘s ammunition has been depleted.  The lack of a C3 Slave module is also surprising and would be a welcomed asset for a design that is going to want to keep itself ideally at medium range to be the most effective.

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: MotW Orochi
« Reply #1 on: 01 December 2018, 00:49:45 »
In my headcanon the Orochi is a O-Bakemono Thunderbolt variant that had its development get all out of hand...

It helps explain why they didn't just do a T-bolt variant for O-Bakemono and why the Orochi is so needlessly redundant to that design...

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Re: MotW Orochi
« Reply #2 on: 01 December 2018, 12:42:22 »
The Orochi is certainly an interesting 'mech. The raw punch of the Thunderbolts is impressive, especially at range. The ability to indirect fire also opens possibilities that you don't usually see in a 'mech with two big guns. But the issue of ammo is concerning. Six tons of ammo only give you nine turns of fire, and that feels like less than it does with an AC/20.
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Re: MotW Orochi
« Reply #3 on: 01 December 2018, 16:03:11 »
Orochi may have direct linage with the Longbow but it's configuration reminds me more of the King Crab.

In my headcanon the Orochi is a O-Bakemono Thunderbolt variant that had its development get all out of hand...

It helps explain why they didn't just do a T-bolt variant for O-Bakemono and why the Orochi is so needlessly redundant to that design...

I honestly never thought of comparing the Orochi to the O-Bakemono as the O-Bakemono OBK-M10 is primarily a artillery mech with the Arrow-IVs. Interesting nether have a LRM variant but I guess the DC have enough Maulers and Dragons to have the LRM support angle covered leading up to the Shiro.

 
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UnLimiTeD

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Re: MotW Orochi
« Reply #4 on: 01 December 2018, 19:25:00 »
A mech I've heard of before, but apparently forgot more thoroughly than the Suns AMS.
Yet again, Thunderbolt-20s prove to me to be a waste of tonnage, even though otherwise the design has its niche.
Thank you for the article.
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Re: MotW Orochi
« Reply #5 on: 01 December 2018, 22:50:14 »
Orochi may have direct linage with the Longbow but it's configuration reminds me more of the King Crab.
In some respects it is very similar to the 005.  The King Crab trades the slower speed for more ammo and an energy weapon to close the range gap that its primary guns lack.

Quote
I honestly never thought of comparing the Orochi to the O-Bakemono as the O-Bakemono OBK-M10 is primarily a artillery mech with the Arrow-IVs. Interesting nether have a LRM variant but I guess the DC have enough Maulers and Dragons to have the LRM support angle covered leading up to the Shiro.
The Mauler's and Dragon's production ended up being a casualty of LAW/Luthien as well.  There were likelyy enough of them floating around though and eventually the Dragon II shows up to starting pumping out a new artillery platform. The D II ended up getting produced elsewhere and not on Luthien.

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Re: MotW Orochi
« Reply #6 on: 02 December 2018, 12:16:10 »
I was going to say that they'd have the Naginata as well, but that production line goes to the WoB and then the Republic.

I want to like the Orochi, but the limited ammo, bad luck with Thunderbolts, and no to mention AMS...eh.

Also, isn't there a Sunder variant that mixes Thunderbolt 5s and LRM5s, and manages to get something like 60 points of damage down range?

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Re: MotW Orochi
« Reply #7 on: 02 December 2018, 12:43:29 »
Orochi has alot going for it.  It's nice change of pace than just regular LRM boat.   It does have issues, but aside from those it's pretty good.

I wish heck they'd get the 3150 Record Sheets out! We need the variants, such as the Silverbullet variant of the Orochi.
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Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: MotW Orochi
« Reply #8 on: 02 December 2018, 12:48:53 »
Yeah it's ostensibly got the potential for promising alternate weapon loadouts...

but it's so similar to not just the O-Bakemono but also the Longbow that there's the "why bother" factor.  For example, the great goblin already has a "massive MRM plus C3 slave" loadout...

On the flipside the Orochi's main contribution (to the DCMS at any rate) seems to be sparing the Longbow and O-Bakemono from needing to try a thunderbolt variant.

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Re: MotW Orochi
« Reply #9 on: 02 December 2018, 15:12:35 »
To be fair, I'm not really sure how much of that survived the Jihad. The O-Bakemono and Sunder lines are destroyed (or near enough to be on Luthien by the Black Dragons when they nuke LAW. The Naginata production line goes to the Republic, and I'm not sure the Longbow has ever been produced in the Draconis Combine. So if you lost those lines, the Orochi probably makes perfect sense concept-wise for something right after the Jihad.

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Re: MotW Orochi
« Reply #10 on: 02 December 2018, 15:14:56 »
I think your right about the Longbow. If there will, there factory who willing to produce it.  Longbow was used by DC during the late succession wars, Soreson's Sabres had one piloted by a Rasalhague pilot. 

I thought with the Project Phoenix that all the designs were spread about to all the major factions. 
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Maelwys

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Re: MotW Orochi
« Reply #11 on: 02 December 2018, 15:45:52 »
The DC has access to the Longbow post-Jihad, but all that seems to be through sales (for instance, the 12R is produced on Terra, but the DC is said to have picked up a few production runs), rather than actual production by themselves. Project Phoenix did spread things out a bit, but not everything to everyone when it comes to production.

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Re: MotW Orochi
« Reply #12 on: 02 December 2018, 17:22:42 »
I went back to my Objective books, see if DCMS could have made a primitive longbow.  Only the Archer was missile thrower that was primitive. That would have been another stream for them to have built their own. by upgrading the primitive factory that was making them.

From glancing through the Objective books, no one was making the Longbow (Primitive).  I was curious if maybe it was introduced after the Objective books had come out or was in process being done.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: MotW Orochi
« Reply #13 on: 03 December 2018, 20:57:06 »
The Orochi's serious lack of endurance for its primary weapons really bothers me.  It's like you're supposed to deploy it right from the ammo dump with a Loadermech standing behind it.

Of the DC's neighbors, the Dominion is the one that's the real threat here- they've definitely got the most AMS packing mechs, though the Lyrans have a fair number as well.  FedSuns?  Yeah, not so much.

Now, which mechs would you deploy this with?
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Re: MotW Orochi
« Reply #14 on: 03 December 2018, 21:02:31 »
I could see the Orochi serving as the bodyguard in an indirect fire lance.  Short ammo bins would be sufficient for a sometimes-combatant.  And thunderbolt-20s should scare the hell out of anything fast enough to close with a standoff force.

Plus, the thunderbolt can stack more IF fire if the situation gets really juicy.

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Re: MotW Orochi
« Reply #15 on: 04 December 2018, 00:08:16 »
From glancing through the Objective books, no one was making the Longbow (Primitive).  I was curious if maybe it was introduced after the Objective books had come out or was in process being done.
When I was researching background for the article I could not find any reference in any publication that stated that the DC ever produced any version of the Longbow domestically.  Either they were sitting on a large amount of them that stretch back to the Star League or earlier and simply kept them well maintained or they purchased the design from the FWL.  The later seems more likely than the former but is speculation.

StarCorps is known to have supplied parts to anyone that wanted them according to TRO 3039.  Three out of four versions that appear on the MUL are Jihad designs built on Lyran, Feddie, and FWL plants.  I am doubtful that any of these plants could have supplied a large amount of modern Longbows to the DCMS so I'm assuming what they had around are mostly older 0W models they had around.  One could probably very easily say Comstar gave them some years earlier when they gave them a number of other Star League designs.  That last part is against speculation.

I could see the Orochi serving as the bodyguard in an indirect fire lance.
That's probably one of the best uses for it.  It's a hefty price tag for a body guard, but something that it would excel at.

Of the DC's neighbors, the Dominion is the one that's the real threat here- they've definitely got the most AMS packing mechs, though the Lyrans have a fair number as well.  FedSuns?  Yeah, not so much.
Post Jihad the DC probably wasn't to worried about what the Lyrans were doing.  The Suns and the Bears shared significantly more boarder space with them.  The Nova Cats were a big enough speed bump I doubt they'd have really deployed all that many new units in that direction prior to the outbreak of the Second Combine/Dominion War to be an issue.

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Re: MotW Orochi
« Reply #16 on: 04 December 2018, 00:40:44 »
Wasn't the Longbow the historically most common assault mech in the Inner Sphere?
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Re: MotW Orochi
« Reply #17 on: 04 December 2018, 01:07:15 »
Wasn't the Longbow the historically most common assault mech in the Inner Sphere?

You're thinking of the Stalker's lore.

As for the Longbow, it may have never been produced in the DC but they've still pretty much always had enough of them to count as factionally available.

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Re: MotW Orochi
« Reply #18 on: 04 December 2018, 02:02:21 »
Yeah, the Stalker was also called that, but I'm sure I saw in at least one book that the Longbow was even more common.
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Maelwys

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Re: MotW Orochi
« Reply #19 on: 04 December 2018, 03:00:49 »
Factionally available, sure, but that's not the same as producing it on your own. With the loss of the Naginata lines, as well as the Sunder lines, the Orochi makes much more sense. "We need a fire support Mech that isn't reliant upon sales from a potentially hostile government."

As for a bodyguard, I'm not sure. The Thunderbolt launchers have a 5 hex minimum range, and in that minimum range, the damage for the launchers is cut in half. Anything that's hunting an indirect lance is probably going to work best in close, where those Thunderbolts are going to be inaccurate (bad with limited ammo), and even if they do hit, they're going to have reduced effectiveness.

JadeHellbringer

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Re: MotW Orochi
« Reply #20 on: 04 December 2018, 09:29:20 »
Only fought one once, in a Clan duel with (of all things- I actually initiated the duel from the Clan side just for the laugh) a Kit Fox C. The Fox won- the Orochi never could get decent numbers with the T-bolts, any time it DID get shots off they vanished in a cloud of AMS fire, and the ERLL on the Clanner eventually found a Streak bin to pop. I was very impressed with the Orochi's potential (and I love its looks), but it was hideously vulnerable to the Fox- and to think I was angry that the RAT gave me that thing instead of a better Fox like a B or Prime!
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Re: MotW Orochi
« Reply #21 on: 04 December 2018, 10:55:34 »
Heh, a mech as over AMSed as an Uller C is basically the perfect predator against an Orochi.
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Re: MotW Orochi
« Reply #22 on: 04 December 2018, 12:05:49 »
Heh, a mech as over AMSed as an Uller C is basically the perfect predator against an Orochi.

Exactly. Normally it's kind of useless, but here it was almost like it was designed years before its intended prey. I think it landed an errant Streak salvo at one point, and otherwise it was just a systematic dismantling of the slower machine- it just couldn't handle the range advantage the Clan laser gave it, and when it could get shots off the AMS was brutal.
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Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: MotW Orochi
« Reply #23 on: 04 December 2018, 12:09:42 »
...
As for a bodyguard, I'm not sure. The Thunderbolt launchers have a 5 hex minimum range, and in that minimum range, the damage for the launchers is cut in half. Anything that's hunting an indirect lance is probably going to work best in close, where those Thunderbolts are going to be inaccurate (bad with limited ammo), and even if they do hit, they're going to have reduced effectiveness.

That's the beauty of using it as a bodyguard, not the flaw.

If you're getting up in the Orochi's grill, you're *not* getting up inside the minimum range of the rest of the lance's LRMs.  They can either tear the hunter-killer up, or just keep throwing indirect fire over the hill while the ostensible LRM-hunter dogfights with the bodyguard.  Even if the bodyguard ultimately loses, it's winning during the duration of the hunter not pwning the LRM mechs.

And if you're throwing zell out the window, a pack of LRM-equipped buddies is just the sort of thing you need to have nearby to have any hope of overwhelming AMS for the T-bolts to have a chance to do their thing.

I sometimes can't remember how things USED to work vs how they work under current rules:  does AMS still have to engage missile attacks in the order they're resolved, or can the defender hold AMS back vs plinky missile attacks to save AMS fire for whenever you declare the Thunderbolts?
« Last Edit: 04 December 2018, 12:13:40 by Tai Dai Cultist »

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: MotW Orochi
« Reply #24 on: 04 December 2018, 13:40:20 »
IIRC it says to choose a missile salvo that hits you, but it must be activated.  Usually this works out to waiting for the first mech to hit you with one or more missile attacks in a round, then applying it to one of its shots.
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Re: MotW Orochi
« Reply #25 on: 04 December 2018, 14:09:10 »
Yeah I want to say I think they changed AMS so that you don't have to blow it on the SRM-4 that comes in before the Thunderbolt-20.

Thunderbolts are neat in concept, but the -20 feels like too much of a feast or famine.. and it's way too easy to be forced to famine.  And the Orochi's fortunes are inextricably linked to the Tbolt-20...

Although the generalization that happens when converting to Alpha Strike's level of granularity is fairly beneficial to Thunderbolts... and by extension the Orochi.  You lose the hole punching threat (since that's not a thing in AS) but you also lose range inadequacies (an ER Large Laser doesn't threaten any further than the T-bolts do).  In the case of the Orochi it's hard to avoid the "insufficient ammo" nerf to raw damage, but it's still a very respectable damage dealer despite that (4/5/3, IF3).  Best of all the AMS special only knocks 1 point of damage off, instead of completely negating the entire Thunderbolt missile.

Look at the Uller-C vs Orochi under a different rules engine... the outcome is flipped.  Orochi has no trouble at all taking out an Uller-C.  Maybe even 2 of them with a lil luck.

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Re: MotW Orochi
« Reply #26 on: 05 December 2018, 03:49:04 »
The Orochi could have been far better in AS with just a little bit of extra ammo. Famine indeed.
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Re: MotW Orochi
« Reply #27 on: 05 December 2018, 05:02:19 »
Turning it into a tank really made a lot more sense. The armament is kind of wasted on a mech, GR/iHGR/HPPC does the same job much better.

A tank hiding behind a low hill lobbing "twin AC/20" is a lot scarier for a given investment IMHO.

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Re: MotW Orochi
« Reply #28 on: 05 December 2018, 07:51:39 »
I could see the Combine using the Orochi as a test bed for Extended LRMs.
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Re: MotW Orochi
« Reply #29 on: 05 December 2018, 08:27:21 »
Orochi is a long range fire support unit or just fire support unit given the Silver Bullet gauss rifles variant we need record sheet for.
I don't picture it being a true LRM boat thou.

Longbows weren't made in the combine, from what I've seen they don't need them since they have other units that can do the same thing.
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