Author Topic: MoTW: Mangonel  (Read 19046 times)

ItsTehPope

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MoTW: Mangonel
« on: 03 September 2011, 03:12:08 »
Writers note: the delay and a lack of editing was due to an illness on my part

Hello my friends, to the trainwreck that never ends, come inside, come inside...

     Today I continue my preference for reviewing ‘Mechs that aren’t overly awesome.  For the readers who are wondering why I did the Flamberge, I assure you that was a momentary lack of clarity and I am once again in full control of my insanity.

    Staring at us today is the Mangonel, one of the myraid “beauties” from TRO3085.  While not an “awful” ‘Mech (The winner of that honor is one page before the Mangonel actually) the Mangonel isn’t great.  It falls under tolerable at best...maybe.  Heck, even the very definition of the word doesn't help out its case, as a Mangonel is a Greco-Roman siege engine.

    So, with my verdict out of the way so early, you the masses want to know...why.

Starting off with the fluff, Khan Kell commissioned several prototypes so he could get Sphere gear working with his Wolves to allow them a simpler logistics train.  One of the children of this project was the Mangonel, first produced in 3078 and as of 3085 was produced in brief runs on occasion for Wolf ‘MechWarriors, and presumably spare parts as well.  I can thus only assume it is now probably out of production, which is possibly one of the shortest runs in the history of the universe.  It was conceived as a heavy cavalry unit taking cues from the Excalibur or the Arctic Wolf, where speed and firepower are primary concerns, with armor and endurance taking a secondary role.  The TRO entry indicates that this is being used to replace Linebackers and Hellbringers.  I can understand the Hellbringer, but not the Linebacker.  I have to assume the WiE have lost their ability to manufacture the red-headed stepchild of the Heavy Omnimech Family in the Linebacker, and were tired of having people die in Hellbringers.

     Well then, let’s take a look at the nuts and bolts.  Right away, we do have some good news in that there is some weight savings from an endo steel skeleton, so points in its favor...a light fusion engine with a 5/8 movement curve, nice.   The light engine will keep it alive when the explodey bits go off or you get a torso chopped off, which will allow you to run like a little girl when you need to. will inevitably be doing.
 
     The cooling array is your bog standard 10 doubles, so they all fit inside the engine when you’re at this size.  Nothing much more to write about there.

    The armor plating on this machine is light.  Almost Hellbringer levels of insanity horrifically enough.   Eight tons of ferro plating give us this layout, legs packing 16, arms 11, side torsos a 20/7 split, center 20/6 and the head carrying the near ubiquitous 9.  For those playing the percentages game at home, about 66% armor coverage.

    The armament is even more, shall we say inspiring.  The arms each carry paired ER Mediums, courtesy of Diverse Optics.  Supply the main firepower is a pair of Corean Light Gauss systems, being fed by a ton of ammo.  That’s not a ton of ammo per rifle mind you, but a ton of ammo TOTAL, giving you 8 shots per rifle.  As an added bonus, I will describe for you the critical hit chart of the side torsos.  On the left we have three locations that are able to be nailed by crits.  Locations 1 and 2 are engine, while number three is the ammo bin.  The right torso is 1 and 2 for engine with 3 through 12 filled with light gauss rifle based explodium.  And that armor is a tad on the thin side as we mentioned earlier...Recall there is no CASE, so its very possible to have a situation where a rifle gets critted, pops, the internal damage pops the other rifle, leaving you with 4 immediate pilot hits, 2 engine crits and possibly CT checks if you get unlucky with preexisting damage as well.

     The fluff says the frame was designed for MechWarriors to dance around their target at range using their superior speed and range to destroy their target.  However, being they have a total of 8 volleys at 8 points a shot with their weapons....yeah not so much, so you either spend time husbanding your shots while you get pounded to bits in a   But you have the medium lasers to help destroy your target...which requires you to get into medium rangeish for most of the 10 point hole punchers and several cluster weapons that can really hork up your day.  These fun weapons will easily ruin this poor machines day.  Your best bet is to ignore Zell and help lay fire support into what someone else is already working on, and use those mediums on your arms for when something presents itself or you need to defend yourself (You poor soul)  When you run out of ammo, either retire from the field or find a reload truck.  Personally, with your ammo load so low, I wouldn’t fire at anything under 8 (So, 7s or better) and hope no one finds you threatening enough to end your life.

    There is a variant mentioned in TRO3085, the MNL-3W, which really should just be called the Mangonel IIC, because that's what the damned thing is.  Utilizing Clanspec components top to bottom, including structure, armor, engine and weaponry, this model ups the armor by significant margins, ups the heat sinks to drop 24 heat per turn.  The IS ER Mediums are replaced by their Clantech twins and the dual light gauss rifles in the one side torso have been split off into a full spec Clan gauss in each torso with two tons of ammo each.  Thats right, this machine has the same amount of ammo per rifle than the original has total.  That is an incredible endurance boost, combined with the additional armor and damage from the lasers make this a rude, if not exactly the most creative combatant.  And as this is a Clanspec frame, CASE is automatically included.  I haven’t had much of an opportunity to playtest it, but in many ways it reminds me of a slower Linebacker, and probably could be played as such...but to be honest.  Its so good, its boring.  Its not imaginative, but it’ll serve you well.

     Normally I don’t do a “How to improve this” section, but today I will.  Looking at those LGR’s and its associate ton of ammo we have a staggering 25 tons to play with.  For those of you playing at home, that's a hair more than a third of the total tonnage on this machine.  The design itself calls for long range direct fire support, so our options are standard gauss rifles, which may work if we swap for an XL engine, AC2’s or 5’s, which really won’t work well here, or energy weapons.  As I want to keep the LFE of the original, it really just leaves us with energy weapons...strip the gauss rifles off, slap on a pair of ER PPCs where the LGR’s lived, go to 17 doubles, max armor done.  But that’s boring.  But I can’t think of anything more unique...using Thunderbolts makes the machine even more suicidal as one side torso turns into a massive bomb

    So, the original, I give it a 5/10.  The art is while solid just doesn't inspire me (granted, this being a design “imported” for lack of a better word from the old Clix game) , the design itself is pretty terribad to borrow one of those phrases the kids are using these days and doesn't lend itself to be used outside of scenario play.  It can do well in a limited anti aircraft role due to the sheer range of the LGR’s, but they have such little endurance and so much explodium its hard to endure it.

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Deadborder

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #1 on: 03 September 2011, 07:39:03 »
I have a confession to make: I love the Mangonel. I shouldn't, but I do regardless. Is it a bad mech? Probably. Is it unique? Defintely. Does it have personality? My god yes. Is it fun? Surprisingly, very much so.

The Mangonel is, for want of a better term, funky. Yet I am attracted to it. The very distinctive look of the mech is eye-catching to say the least. I have one of the DA minis (Copperhead, of ocurse, like 99% of the rest of existance) and i can say now that, in 3D, the mech is even more bizzare. A pentagonal torso, reverse-articulated legs and those LGRs makes for a very distinctive and unique mech.

I've had some fun with it playing against friends (well, save for the one time that I got a crit on my lGR ammo in the first round of fire...); but then, one of my friends has, in turn, managed to wreak havoc out of all proportion with it in return. The key is that two LGRs are able to, at a pretty effectively huge range, do enough damage to hurt so you can't ingore them. Yes, this often meanas taking risky shots with your limited ammo, but hey? What's life without some danger.

How would I improve it? Hard. Improving the Mangonel pretty much turns it into a new mech; the limited crits availible also hamper your options. One simple idea would be to use an XL Gyro to free up two tons. Putting one of those into armour and the other into more LGR ammo would make a world of difference. A part of me wonders why they didn't do this to begin with, but then maybe the WIE were hoping to get this beast "Clanified" as fast as possible. A Small Cockpit is another option; its a risk, but then with this thing, it's better then nothing.

All up? This is one of my favourtiest mechs in 3085, and I loved 3085. With that being said, I wouldn't use it for its intende role (Duelling with Falcons) unless I was feeling partocularily brave or suicidal. Or both.
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Kotetsu

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #2 on: 03 September 2011, 16:21:32 »
The Mangonel is definitely a niche weapons system. However, since I do want to see what the stats for Anastasia's variant are going to be, I'll reserve judgement.

Demos

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #3 on: 04 September 2011, 11:47:07 »
I have a confession to make: I love the Mangonel. I shouldn't, but I do regardless. Is it a bad mech? Probably. Is it unique? Defintely. Does it have personality? My god yes. Is it fun? Surprisingly, very much so.

The Mangonel is, for want of a better term, funky. Yet I am attracted to it. The very distinctive look of the mech is eye-catching to say the least. I have one of the DA minis (Copperhead, of ocurse, like 99% of the rest of existance) and i can say now that, in 3D, the mech is even more bizzare. A pentagonal torso, reverse-articulated legs and those LGRs makes for a very distinctive and unique mech.

I've had some fun with it playing against friends (well, save for the one time that I got a crit on my lGR ammo in the first round of fire...); but then, one of my friends has, in turn, managed to wreak havoc out of all proportion with it in return. The key is that two LGRs are able to, at a pretty effectively huge range, do enough damage to hurt so you can't ingore them. Yes, this often meanas taking risky shots with your limited ammo, but hey? What's life without some danger.

How would I improve it? Hard. Improving the Mangonel pretty much turns it into a new mech; the limited crits availible also hamper your options. One simple idea would be to use an XL Gyro to free up two tons. Putting one of those into armour and the other into more LGR ammo would make a world of difference. A part of me wonders why they didn't do this to begin with, but then maybe the WIE were hoping to get this beast "Clanified" as fast as possible. A Small Cockpit is another option; its a risk, but then with this thing, it's better then nothing.

All up? This is one of my favourtiest mechs in 3085, and I loved 3085. With that being said, I wouldn't use it for its intende role (Duelling with Falcons) unless I was feeling partocularily brave or suicidal. Or both.
+999!

I'm fond of the Mangonel. A terrible beast, indeed!  ;)
The XL Gyro switch for one ton of ammo and armor would be my preferred solution and would guarantee an inclusion of the Mangonel in nearly every of my forces, capable of using it fluffwise.
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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #4 on: 04 September 2011, 16:01:09 »
Methinks they should be used in laces with Bombardiers. Blitz attacks!

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #5 on: 04 September 2011, 20:54:06 »
I think the Ostsol 7M variant would beat the pants off this guy. Its good thing it was put into limited production.  I can't imagine them wasting resources on such a crap-tactular design.  I'd like to see a better Inner Sphere version of it without the "prototype's" short-comings in it.  Specially with the 7M no longer in production anymore if you read TRO3085 fluff correctly.
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wantec

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #6 on: 05 September 2011, 11:48:03 »
Well, if you juggle crits around and do a LT/RT split like the Clan version you can fit in a pair of RAC/5s in the IS version.
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ItsTehPope

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #7 on: 05 September 2011, 13:02:15 »
Well, if you juggle crits around and do a LT/RT split like the Clan version you can fit in a pair of RAC/5s in the IS version.

True, but you loose the range which makes this machine itself.  At that point, you may as well get yourself a RACJagermech
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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #8 on: 05 September 2011, 14:13:54 »
This design actually tempts me to go "okay, nice try, now give me the extralight engine the 'Mech is obviously crying out for already!". (And that its Clantech cousin already has, so it's actually not as though the idea was all that farfetched.)

I mean, sure, that leaves me with all of two open slots for 7.5 tons freed up. But that's okay; I just need those for extra ammo, the remaining weight I can split between armor and more engine-internal heat sinks almost at will. And sure, now losing a side torso is going to kill the 'Mech; but it's not as though that would have been exactly happy news for the original either, and at least I should now be both better protected overall and able to hang back and snipe for a good while longer before I have to make up my mind about rushing in with my lasers...

ItsTehPope

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #9 on: 05 September 2011, 14:37:14 »
This design actually tempts me to go "okay, nice try, now give me the extralight engine the 'Mech is obviously crying out for already!". (And that its Clantech cousin already has, so it's actually not as though the idea was all that farfetched.)

I mean, sure, that leaves me with all of two open slots for 7.5 tons freed up. But that's okay; I just need those for extra ammo, the remaining weight I can split between armor and more engine-internal heat sinks almost at will. And sure, now losing a side torso is going to kill the 'Mech; but it's not as though that would have been exactly happy news for the original either, and at least I should now be both better protected overall and able to hang back and snipe for a good while longer before I have to make up my mind about rushing in with my lasers...

I must admit, I like the XL gyro idea, which I didn't think of initially.  When I was trying to tweak it I was intentionally avoiding going the XL route..But I think you're right, it begs and needs one.
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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #10 on: 05 September 2011, 18:02:16 »
I'm a huge LGR fan, and even though the Mangonel is far from the best mech that employs them, I feel that somehow I should speak up for it anyway.

The idea of a mech that uses a combination of range and speed to substitute for armor is hardly new.  The old Longbow tried it, as did the Hellbringer (sort of, kind of) and the Excaliber, and others.  Their problems were that they didn't really have access to a weapon that was longer ranged that anyone else.  But, in the IS, only the LGR and AC2s can hit beyond the ER PPC's 23 hexes, giving you a small zone of safty, along with a nice zone of advantage thanks to their 17 hex medium range.  So if you had to do a mech with that concept, the LGR is a really nice way to do it, since the only way to really compeat with comperable tech is to race in and try and close the range.  Granted, if you've got ER PPCs or GRs or even old LRMs, its not that much of a challange to close between 2-4 hexes to get into range, but at 5/8 the Mangonel will tend not to be slower than mechs with serious numbers of ER PPCs, GRs, or LRMs so it can make them work, and again if they close too much then its just a short jaunt foward to 16-17 hexes for medium range.

That said, its still a pretty crummy mech.  One of the key advantages of the LGR is ammo, which is not exploited here.  And using such a low amount of armor is just criminal no matter what gun you've got, but more so since, unlike the senerio I offer above, the Mangonel can reasonably expect to fight the Clans and their ER Large lasers reasonably often, and fight fast Clan mechs reasonably often, or alternitively to fight Lyrans in big mechs with lots of armor the rest of the time. 

The LFE is I think the key culperate.  I understand the desire to 1) save money, 2) add to durability and 3) offer a pretty fun asthetic with both LGRs in one torso, which I really do like, but the notion of adding durability by using tonnage that could have added 50% more armor and more ammo endurance and case, and the notion of saving money by making a mech that's likely to get blown up is not really sensable.  Worst of all, because the ammo and GRs are in opposite torsos, the notion of 'being able to fight on with one side gone' holds up rather poorly, since the loss of either side (or even crits to either side) is likely to cost you your main weapons.

Its clever enough and I like LGRs enough that I might take it against a slower IS force if I was feeling frisky.  But, I'd be really doubtful about it making much of a contribution.  For 1500 BV, a Fire Falcon B would do the job better.  Or a Kit Fox or Adder or Couger or something like that.  For LGRs, the 7M Ostsol is very competitive for just 30 more BV and a few million fewer C Bills.  Or any of a large number of other mechs that could do many jobs better just by vertue of being sensable.

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #11 on: 05 September 2011, 18:02:34 »
I don't think the XL Gyro route is that far fetched, considering the Exiles use them in their mixed tech variants.

The Mangonel really suffers from a great idea held back by poor design. In essence the reason for the design was a great idea by trying to make up a long range heavy Cav battlemech to buff up the second-line forces with IS tech in the short-term and possibly free up Clantech to move to the frontline Galaxies currently engaged in the fight against the Blakists. Its a shame because the what we get out of the Mangonel is nothing the Verfloger could do and do it better. The Mangonel really needs Clantech to make its dream a reality which is a shame because while this is a characterful mech, its also  has their mechwarriors praying to pilot a Hellbringer.

I still maintain this was secretly design by Clan Jade Falcon's Watch in attempt to get more Wolves killed. 
« Last Edit: 05 September 2011, 18:04:45 by Ratwedge »

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #12 on: 05 September 2011, 20:10:34 »
Way the fluff reads like its more 'Mech to try out the concept to pave way for the Clan version because of WiE resource restraints. 

Stat wise, sounds like it was intented to be a bad/flaw design.
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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #13 on: 05 September 2011, 21:33:15 »
that's something that chafes me a bit: it's one thing to avoid designing min/maxed mechs, and another altogether to crank out gimptech. The Mangonel is fine example of the latter [tickedoff]

Another option- apart from the obvious step of going full XLFE- would be to drop one or more of the ERMLs for ammo and maybe armor. Given the mission, losing some close-in oomph is not a big deal.
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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #14 on: 05 September 2011, 23:17:15 »
This is one of the few occasions when Catalyst had a highly detailed Dark Age design, that was completely illegal under Total Warfare units. When the DA design was attempted, we found it couldn't be built with IS technology. Yet the design was supposed to be an IS design. Given all named Mechs in DA are assumed to be customized in some way or another, we came up with the concept of a Clan version that matched the DA stats and then were just left with creating the IS version.

Hence the stunning stats of the IS design.

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iamfanboy

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #15 on: 06 September 2011, 02:50:28 »
This is one of those cases where the illegal design should have been ignored, then - or the 3085 version should have been a 'decent' 'Mech that could have eventually evolved into the MWDA version.

I heartily agree with Iucho here: "it's one thing to avoid designing min/maxed mechs, and another altogether to crank out gimptech."

There are so many better guns that could have gone in there - LB-5xs would be damn near perfect, would save 8 tons, and you'd only lose 1 hex of short, 2 of medium, and 4 of long. I'm no fan of the LB-5x, but it's where MY mind would have gone for an effective long-range fire support design using IS technology ballistic weapons.

Using that you could have two bays of ammo, the lowered crit requirements would mean you could pack them into the same torso, put in more armor (say, another 2.5 tons with CASE?) and maybe up one each of those ER Meds to LPPCs. Or maybe some ECM would help, or possibly MASC?

See? 30 seconds of thinking, and I magically made it better while still keeping to its original fluff and NOT minmaxing and reaching for the ERPPCs straight from the start.


It smacks of laziness IMHO. "We can't make this 'Mech decent, so why bother?" A shame, because I like its weird, extreme look and WANT to use it, but gimptech is best left in the 3025 era.

Hey, wanna bet with another five minutes I could make a decent SW-era version that would STILL be better than the version in the 3085 version. <_<

Gimptech. I like that phrase. What about Crippletech? Naw, gimptech is stronger.


EDIT: yes, now I realize that the LGR deals 8 damage to the LB5x's 5 - I've been playing more Quickstrike recently and forgot the LGR's damage was higher. Still, I maintain that RAC/2s and/or LB-10xs would have been a superior choice. <_<

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #16 on: 06 September 2011, 07:36:49 »
hmm, LB-5Xs are actually a good idea. The IS model couldn't fit twin Gauss rifles, so they went with flak guns and got a solid anti-air/vehicle mech.* The main limitation is the appearance: moving the LGRs to the arms helps survivability. With an XLFE, you can swap the 4 ERMLs for a more useful ERLL and C3 link. And still add 2 tons of ammo and more armor.

*Oh drat, another mech that can do the Jaegermech's job better than it can  :-[ :P

By the by, is anyone else reminded of the elephant's fear of mice when looking at the art? The Mangonel has an unreasonable fear of Savannah Masters  :D
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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #17 on: 06 September 2011, 09:05:52 »
By the by, is anyone else reminded of the elephant's fear of mice when looking at the art? The Mangonel has an unreasonable fear of Savannah Masters  :D

There's such a thing as an unreasonable fear of Savannah Masters? ;)

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #18 on: 06 September 2011, 22:55:15 »
There's such a thing as an unreasonable fear of Savannah Masters? ;)
Well, I dunno, if it's mounting twin LB-5x I doubt it has much to fear from any tiny hovercraft.... SKEET SHOOT!

As far as a SW-era retrotech version, I designed two - one with 4x AC/2s, another with 2x AC/10s, both with 4x MLs, and at 4/6 and 10 tons of armor it seems pretty adequate when measured against most of the other era 'Mechs.

(I have a fondness for AC/2s as AA and harassment weapons in the SW era...)

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #19 on: 07 September 2011, 12:49:08 »
A lot of my favorite mechs are based on looks, and I think the Mangonel looks awesome. Thus, I feel the need to use it, or modify it to "make it work".  I still got my fingers crossed some future TRO gives us a better stock variant.

I too agree that LBX5 would be a welcome addition. There are just so many things you can do that fit nicely with the paired LBX5. ERLL, Stealth Armor, C3, etc.

You could even go with Light AC5s and Large Lasers. Not exactly "Long Range" in the 3085 era, but it could at least pack on enough armor to survive being a little closer


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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #20 on: 18 September 2011, 11:57:39 »
A lot of my favorite mechs are based on looks, and I think the Mangonel looks awesome. Thus, I feel the need to use it, or modify it to "make it work".  I still got my fingers crossed some future TRO gives us a better stock variant.

I too agree that LBX5 would be a welcome addition. There are just so many things you can do that fit nicely with the paired LBX5. ERLL, Stealth Armor, C3, etc.

You could even go with Light AC5s and Large Lasers. Not exactly "Long Range" in the 3085 era, but it could at least pack on enough armor to survive being a little closer

probably why I like Clints so much. I'm a slave to mech fashion myself. I haven't used a Mangonel myself yet, but I'm constantly tempted to because it looks so funky!

Great writeup Pope! Thanks :)

And yes, as-is the things is pretty sucky, but that really does make for part of the fun. Especially when roleplaying. I love getting a steaming pile and trying to make it work out ok (once I rolled an Awesome... in old-school Solaris VII.... I was never more disapointed in rolling such a great machine before in my life, lol). But it was a fun campaign. ;)

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #21 on: 18 September 2011, 16:30:23 »
I could live with the only OK stats but its just too fugly to live.  My subpar mechs must be sexy, as I generally need to like the performance or looks of a mech in order to use it, with a handful delivering on both(PXH, Wraith). 

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #22 on: 19 September 2011, 15:19:26 »
Is this yet another example of the unbalanced relationship certain Inner Sphere powers have with their "pet" Clans?
I think this is going to become an issue when the first Lyran Mangonel pilots have faced the Falcons in battle a few times...

cheers,

Gabe
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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #23 on: 19 September 2011, 17:25:56 »
Is this yet another example of the unbalanced relationship certain Inner Sphere powers have with their "pet" Clans?
I think this is going to become an issue when the first Lyran Mangonel pilots have faced the Falcons in battle a few times...

cheers,

Gabe

Please elaborate.

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #24 on: 20 September 2011, 06:59:54 »
In exchange for the shelter and all the material support the Wolves-in-Exile have received from the Lyrans (as well as openly supporting particular sides in Lyran dynastic struggles), the WiE still can't bring themselves to provide Clan-tech units that will give Lyran forces a fighting chance against the ever-present danger of the Falcons.  They could at least provide a few such units to trusted commands in the Arc-Royal Theater, with the stipulation that they won't be deployed to attack other Inner Sphere enemies.  But no, they provide a "monkey" version that is poorly designed even by Inner Sphere standards.  If this were the Diamond Sharks, who aren't beholden to any particular IS power and are driven only by the profit motive, it would be one thing.  It's another when your faction is given shelter by one of the realm's leading nobles...who also happens to be the Khan's father.

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
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TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #25 on: 20 September 2011, 07:19:35 »
In exchange for the shelter and all the material support the Wolves-in-Exile have received from the Lyrans (as well as openly supporting particular sides in Lyran dynastic struggles), the WiE still can't bring themselves to provide Clan-tech units that will give Lyran forces a fighting chance against the ever-present danger of the Falcons.  They could at least provide a few such units to trusted commands in the Arc-Royal Theater, with the stipulation that they won't be deployed to attack other Inner Sphere enemies.  But no, they provide a "monkey" version that is poorly designed even by Inner Sphere standards.  If this were the Diamond Sharks, who aren't beholden to any particular IS power and are driven only by the profit motive, it would be one thing.  It's another when your faction is given shelter by one of the realm's leading nobles...who also happens to be the Khan's father.

cheers,

Gabe

Well, I agree.
Same could be said for the Nova Cats and the Combine.
But I guess it would be "too much" for the LC and Combine to have steady and cheap access to Clan tech...

But, don't forget: the Mangonel is originally a Kell Hound/Arc-Royal MechWorks design, not so much an CWiE one.

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #26 on: 20 September 2011, 08:40:26 »
Same could be said for the Nova Cats and the Combine.

The Cats are selling/providing some Clantech gear to the Combine.

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #27 on: 20 September 2011, 08:47:58 »
Emphasis on "some".  ;)

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #28 on: 20 September 2011, 10:11:18 »
Given the Cats and Exiles are relatively small forces and have to equip themselves with IS tech I think that it is fair to say that it is impractical to equip their host nations with Clantech when they can not even provide enough for their own needs.

That said, the sale of assault dropships to the Lyrans is doesn't suggest that
the WiE still can't bring themselves to provide Clan-tech units that will give Lyran forces a fighting chance against the ever-present danger of the Falcons.

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #29 on: 20 September 2011, 11:20:32 »
Giving away one of your only advantages doesnt seem conductive to long term survival as an independant entity, especially when you're smaller then they are.
The WiE and Lyrans may be friendly now, but this doesnt necessarily mean that it'll be true down the line. Look at the DC and their deteriorating situation with the Nova Cats.

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #30 on: 20 September 2011, 12:13:23 »
Is it me or did Gyedid forget that the Mangonel was a Battlemech for the Exiles to help patch up the Touman and that it was only built sparingly and not sold to the Lyrans? Heck the POS was designed and built by Lyrans so if hes going to blame anyone he should blame the Kell Hounds and Arc-Royal MechWorks. I also noticed he didn't mention anything about the Isegrim, not surprising because it does call into question the validity of his complaints about the Lyran not getting any toys.

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #31 on: 28 January 2019, 02:41:29 »
Necroing the thread, but since this article was originally written a new variant of the Mangonel has come into being and I was curious about it.  The 4S is mixed tech, with the original stock Mangonel's chassis, armor, and engine but an all-new Clantech weapon loadout.

A HAG 40 backed by paired Clan ER Mediums and MPLs seems pretty dangerous, though even with the improved armor layout it still looks a bit fragile.
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Empyrus

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #32 on: 28 January 2019, 10:26:35 »
Mangonel!
The mixtech version seems quite reasonable to me, considering the original principle of the Mangonel.
10 tons of IS ferro is quite a bit. Not max, but everything being Gauss or AC/20 proof is pretty good, especially when you consider the range of the HAG40 and the mobility of the 'Mech. And not many 'Mechs like to get close to it either, Clan lasers being what they're.
Would've liked one extra point of armor in the center torso front but whatever, nice round numbers like 30 rarely stay as such before getting hit by a Gauss rifle twice.

The 4S is considerably improved over the stock, yet not as abominable departure from the original's style (guns on both sides as opposed to twin guns on one side) as the pure Clan-spec version, so it gets my approval even if it has some short comings.
EDIT Well, improvement and improvement. Unfortunately the new thing is really expensive BV-wise. Can i have a version with IS lasers but keep the HAG40? EDIT nevermind that. Swapping the lasers would lower the BV cost only by 200 points but the Clan lasers outperform their IS equivalents by far, worth the 200 points certainly.

Personally, i would've made the 'Mechs original version with LB-5Xs and maybe some special armor and/or X-pulse lasers rather than LGRs, but that's just me. I believe Welshman says earlier in the thread that the design was mandated by MWDA data but i've never see anything similar to the 3L or 3W.
« Last Edit: 28 January 2019, 10:30:26 by Empyrus »

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #33 on: 28 January 2019, 12:10:34 »
Yeah, read through the thread last night: when the mech was being designed they tried working backwards off the DA specs and realized it was impossible with IS tech so the Clantech version was the original, then they made the IS version based off that.  And it is the first mech I've seen where I can actually say that I'd have preferred LB-5x ACs to its stock loadout.
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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #34 on: 28 January 2019, 15:39:20 »
Still wonder where the hell the DA specs are located. They aren't in the any free MWDA PDF stuff compilations. Don't recall the 'Mech being mentioned in the books either, but i haven't read them all.

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #35 on: 28 January 2019, 17:53:43 »
I'm guessing that the specs were guestimates based on the clicky mini rather than printed stats.
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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #36 on: 29 January 2019, 13:58:26 »
Specs were detailed in the LE dossiers. Also, some of the playtest materials came with unit loadouts, so they exist...

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #37 on: 29 January 2019, 13:59:48 »
Was Anastasia piloting the -3W?
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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #38 on: 29 January 2019, 15:38:18 »
Specs were detailed in the LE dossiers. Also, some of the playtest materials came with unit loadouts, so they exist...
I'm pretty sure all LE dossiers are available in PDF form for free, and i believe i read every single one, yet recall no Mangonel stats presented anywhere. The Mangonel may have been mentioned.
So i wonder if Catalyst had the specs behind the scenes but they weren't available for public. That, or the PDF compilations are not complete.

Or maybe they're in the playtest materials, i don't recall ever seeing those in PDF form.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mangonel
Interestingly Sarna notes: "One Mangonel sighted in action during the Dark Age era was described as mounting Autocannons instead of Gauss Rifles." with citation needed.

Was Anastasia piloting the -3W?
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Anastasia_Kerensky#BattleMech
Sarna says: "She later piloted a MNL-V1-H Mangonel that was affectionately named "Alpha"."

One of the weird Dark Age designations. The variant hasn't been canonized, so it is unclear if the designation still holds true and the 'Mech is merely lacking stats, or if the designation is basically uncanonical.
The other named Mangonel, the Copperhead, has identical designation, with very different stats. The generic Mangonels have designations MGL-V1-H and MGL-V3-H, according to Warrenborn.com.

I'm inclined to believe her Mangonel might be customized (on the account of her being an important character and having piloted customized Ryoken II), but no idea which variant it might be based on.

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #39 on: 29 January 2019, 15:56:23 »
Version 1-Heavy . . . I want to say that by that point they were using designations that were not based on model numbers since the -H was for what pilots could sit in the mech.  For instance, the Steel Wolf Uziel from AoD is UZL-5L-M and the Blade is BLD-XV-L.  The Stormhammer Hellstar is HTR-3K-A while the Hell's Horses Timberwolf is TMB-VP-H . . . so the last letter is the weight class.  The V1, 5L, XV, 3K and VP . . . well, who knows . . . heck, I have never seen HTR or TMB for the Clan mechs.
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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #40 on: 29 January 2019, 16:19:15 »
Clan 'Mechs never posses model designations in canonical BattleTech as far i can recall. TMB is probably Timber Wolf, and HTR is Hellstar. (MWO invents designations for Clan 'Mechs as well.) Doubt V stands for version here, the system seems to be lacking consistence for that.

Either way easy to see why Catalyst ignored MWDA designations completely.

Hope we'll eventually see some Dark Age "uniques" that are in MWDA but lack canonical stats in BattleTech. Uncertain how many there are but still.
Say, "Spotlight On: Steel Wolves", with "Alpha" included there...

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #41 on: 29 January 2019, 16:20:51 »
Just so long as we never have to deal with the spiky Atlas.
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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #42 on: 29 January 2019, 16:31:32 »
I remember that Anastasia Kerensky's Mangonel in the MWDA Wolf Hunters (by the way great book), went haywire due to suspected sabotage. The thing went heywire, like doing disco spin, nearly killed her.  That what lead to her to getting her MadCat Mk IV prototype Omni.

Only time in print i saw Mangonel used in fiction.
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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #43 on: 29 January 2019, 16:35:23 »
I remember that Anastasia Kerensky's Mangonel in the MWDA Wolf Hunters (by the way great book), went haywire due to suspected sabotage. The thing went heywire, like doing disco spin, nearly killed her.  That what lead to her to getting her MadCat Mk IV prototype Omni.

Only time in print i saw Mangonel used in fiction.
You're mixing up her Ryoken II (which was equipped with jump jets that got sabotaged) with the Mangonel, which never appeared in the books.
It is unclear when she piloted the Mangonel, given that the books had her pilot the Ryoken II and then the Savage Wolf.

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #44 on: 29 January 2019, 16:43:45 »
You're mixing up her Ryoken II (which was equipped with jump jets that got sabotaged) with the Mangonel, which never appeared in the books.
It is unclear when she piloted the Mangonel, given that the books had her pilot the Ryoken II and then the Savage Wolf.
Ack, my bust. I thought it did mention it in the novel.
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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #45 on: 29 January 2019, 17:16:00 »
Clan 'Mechs never posses model designations in canonical BattleTech as far i can recall. TMB is probably Timber Wolf, and HTR is Hellstar. (MWO invents designations for Clan 'Mechs as well.) Doubt V stands for version here, the system seems to be lacking consistence for that.

Either way easy to see why Catalyst ignored MWDA designations completely.

Hope we'll eventually see some Dark Age "uniques" that are in MWDA but lack canonical stats in BattleTech. Uncertain how many there are but still.
Say, "Spotlight On: Steel Wolves", with "Alpha" included there...

Like I said, the last -A/H/M/L went with what pilot card you could match for best use.

And I thought she used the Mangonel when she faced off with Paladin Marik in one of the statelets he had been sheparding . . . I think on a Chaos March world.

Edit-  Dec 3135, at the head of the Shiloh Alliance forces trying to take Phecda which hired the newly formed Wolf Hunters.
« Last Edit: 29 January 2019, 17:20:24 by Colt Ward »
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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #46 on: 29 January 2019, 18:52:50 »
You're correct Colt, she piloted one briefly on one of the DA novels. before she got her Mad Cat 3
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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #47 on: 29 January 2019, 22:32:18 »
It's funny, i was dabbling on youtube. I came across the Dave School FULL video of the MechWarrior Dark Age film they didn't finish.  Quality of the video isn't so good, but you can see Mangonel being used in it.

it's bit of interesting take on it. Mangonel wasn't able use it's long range weapons.
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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #48 on: 29 January 2019, 23:10:06 »
Its a IV DarkWing, the III was a Stormcrow clone with a marketing name.
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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #49 on: 30 January 2019, 08:48:39 »
Still wonder where the hell the DA specs are located. They aren't in the any free MWDA PDF stuff compilations. Don't recall the 'Mech being mentioned in the books either, but i haven't read them all.
The stats to the Clan version of the Mangonel were published by Kelly Bonilla, the lead designer at the time, on the WK MWDA forums.
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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #50 on: 30 January 2019, 09:08:02 »
The stats to the Clan version of the Mangonel were published by Kelly Bonilla, the lead designer at the time, on the WK MWDA forums.
Well, that's one mystery (to me) solved then! Thanks.

Hrmm, wonder how long ago that would've been. 2004 maybe?

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #51 on: 30 January 2019, 10:16:54 »
Did this ever get any quirks?  B/c I think 'easy to modify (RT)' might be easy to accept since its got those two big guns so it should be a huge weapons bay to mount two big guns. 
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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #52 on: 30 January 2019, 10:37:59 »
Did this ever get any quirks?  B/c I think 'easy to modify (RT)' might be easy to accept since its got those two big guns so it should be a huge weapons bay to mount two big guns.
Pretty sure it ain't easy to modify, the Clan version is completely different version when you consider it uses all Clan-tech construction to boot.
TRO 3085 notes that the 3W is basically entirely different machine.

The Mangonel features "difficult to maintain" and "no/minimal arms quirks" per BMM. Pity it ain't got any positive quirks. Long-range targeting would've been neat...
EDIT Duh, accurate weapon "LGR" would've been wonderful, since the TRO entry notes they're exceptionally accurate. Of course, BMM quirks are the kind that are usually only applicable to all variants.
« Last Edit: 30 January 2019, 10:40:01 by Empyrus »

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #53 on: 30 January 2019, 10:44:38 »
Well, I was not meaning the Clan version specifically but more what I was referring was how you could swap out two different big guns for the LGRs.  Like the previously mentioned LB-5X in place of the LGRs.  The way the torso is described & looks makes that RT seem like one big open space even with the 2 crits for the LFE.
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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #54 on: 30 January 2019, 10:45:38 »
Argh, real pity the 3L doesn't mount an XL gyro. Would'be good fit here, considering the 'Mech's intended to stay at range. It would free two tons, one for ammo, one to increase armor to 75%. Heck, i'd take even a small cockpit to boot, for further ammo, armor or maybe C3 slave.

Well, I was not meaning the Clan version specifically but more what I was referring was how you could swap out two different big guns for the LGRs.  Like the previously mentioned LB-5X in place of the LGRs.  The way the torso is described & looks makes that RT seem like one big open space even with the 2 crits for the LFE.
Ah, i see what you mean. Remove the LGRs, and the 'Mechs right torso is basically enormous weapons bay.
Easy to modify would be quite cool certainly, the LB-5Xs would be good fits but i can see someone cramming in some missile launchers or energy weapons or whatever.
But i suppose "easy to modify" includes a bit more than just having space, wiring etc. probably need to be easily adaptable as well.
« Last Edit: 30 January 2019, 10:48:38 by Empyrus »

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #55 on: 30 January 2019, 10:54:20 »
Incidentally, we both forgot that there is no such quirk as "easy to modify". There is "modular weapons", but that's rather specific thing (eg the Mercury), and "easy to maintain" which is different.
Going through the quirk list, there are no other (positive) quirks that relate to modifications.

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #56 on: 30 January 2019, 11:27:20 »
Yeah, I did not think there was . . . and to be honest, I think throwing ELRMs in for the LGRs might be interesting.  It was also why I was suggesting a weapon with ammo feeds to keep it 'close.'

Also interesting to note is the -3W is the first mech since the Blood Asp Prime that had double Gauss Rifles and the only one before that I can remember would be the Mad Dog C-  simply b/c in Clan tech its more efficient to have 2 ERPPCs.
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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #57 on: 30 January 2019, 11:34:26 »
Yeah, I did not think there was . . . and to be honest, I think throwing ELRMs in for the LGRs might be interesting.  It was also why I was suggesting a weapon with ammo feeds to keep it 'close.'

Also interesting to note is the -3W is the first mech since the Blood Asp Prime that had double Gauss Rifles and the only one before that I can remember would be the Mad Dog C-  simply b/c in Clan tech its more efficient to have 2 ERPPCs.

Wasn't the Dire Wolf H a twin-Gauss? It's been a while, but I think it had them.

But yeah, it's a remarkably rare weapon combo, particularly compared to the cacophony of IS designs packing twin-Gauss.
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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #58 on: 30 January 2019, 11:46:09 »
The equivalent is the paired ERPPCs and we got those versions at nearly the same rate as the IS got their double Guass- and the Clans get 1 additional hex of range to boot!  I guess our equivalent to the Thunderhawk was the Hellstar, but I also do not recall any 2 ERPPC & 1 GR assault mechs which would have been a more efficient Clan version IMO.
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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #59 on: 30 January 2019, 12:18:01 »
Wasn't the Dire Wolf H a twin-Gauss? It's been a while, but I think it had them.

But yeah, it's a remarkably rare weapon combo, particularly compared to the cacophony of IS designs packing twin-Gauss.

Yes, and the Turkina A, as well.
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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #60 on: 03 February 2019, 14:26:04 »
not the rarest, but definitely dwarfed by the dual erppc crowd

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #61 on: 04 February 2019, 14:59:51 »
Wait, what the hell is a Harpagos?
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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #62 on: 04 February 2019, 16:13:10 »
Wait, what the hell is a Harpagos?
Look's like a quadvee.
...
I don't actually recall anything about the quadvees anymore.

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #63 on: 04 February 2019, 16:14:43 »
Shows how much attention I've paid to them, clearly.  ;D
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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #64 on: 04 February 2019, 18:08:28 »
It's the heaviest Quadvee to date at 75 tons, but it's slow and only mounts the two GRs with a total of 3 tons of ammo.  It's not very good even by Quadvee standards.
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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #65 on: 05 February 2019, 10:05:10 »
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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #66 on: 26 July 2022, 08:27:44 »
Just throwing this out there, but now we have Julian Davion piloted a Mangonel!! If that doesn't prove Mangonels are cool...
It says "clan tech based" so I assume not the 3L rubbish.
It was donated to Davion from the Republic as part of the Dawn Guards.

Reference: Shattered Foretress, story "Bring the Dawn", page 8.
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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #67 on: 26 July 2022, 08:33:34 »
That probably refers to the  Mangonel 3W which is fully ClanTech. But it is not a proper Mangonel, fake-ass thrash, proper Mangonels have their guns on right torso only.

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #68 on: 27 July 2022, 10:01:52 »
That probably refers to the  Mangonel 3W which is fully ClanTech. But it is not a proper Mangonel, fake-ass thrash, proper Mangonels have their guns on right torso only.

Which... I'm on a phone and don't have sheets and all that handy, but I THINK you can actually make that work with twin Clan-Gauss. It would be a terrifying insta-bomb for any right torso crit, so it would be a BAD idea, but it's doable anyway. I think. Probably.
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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #69 on: 27 July 2022, 10:18:17 »
XL engine is 2, gauss are 6 each. 14 slots.

The official sheet has one in each torso. I'll never get the mini, but it's a shame they didn't try to match it for the good version. ultra or LB 10s would have done it.

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #70 on: 27 July 2022, 10:53:57 »
Which... I'm on a phone and don't have sheets and all that handy, but I THINK you can actually make that work with twin Clan-Gauss. It would be a terrifying insta-bomb for any right torso crit, so it would be a BAD idea, but it's doable anyway. I think. Probably.
As if the 3L wasn't a bad idea  ;D
Twin LGRs with LFE, no CASE. I love it anyway.

As noted earlier in this thread, the original Wizkids made stats for the Mangonel were apparently illegal, because you can't fit twin Clan Gauss to one torso without SFE (and SFE doesn't allow 5/8 mobility with that armament). Hence the approximate 3L, and the 3W "variant", which the TRO3085 describes as a practically different 'Mech rather than merely a variant.


Strictly speaking the later 4S variant more or less matches the Mangonel's intent, as HAGs are sometimes portrayed with multiple barrels. (Unfortunately for me, i don't really like HAGs, i'd rather just use missiles for most part.)

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #71 on: 27 July 2022, 11:13:55 »
To be fair, 'mechs like the Marauder and Stone Rhino have their guns in side torsos whereas they're depicted in art as having them mounted above the center torso.  If you really want to then, just imagine that the actual gun barrel for the other torso's gun is in the right torso  ^-^
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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #72 on: 27 July 2022, 11:25:26 »
To be fair, 'mechs like the Marauder and Stone Rhino have their guns in side torsos whereas they're depicted in art as having them mounted above the center torso.  If you really want to then, just imagine that the actual gun barrel for the other torso's gun is in the right torso  ^-^
No, bad BATTLEMASTER. Only the T-bolt gets away with truly weird wrong side-torso placement. (Top-mounted gun is fine.)

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #73 on: 27 July 2022, 12:24:40 »
I like the walking gun turret look of the Mangonel and I honestly wouldn't mind seeing more of it. Biggest problem though is the Rifleman and a few others in it's weight range can do the same job.
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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #74 on: 27 July 2022, 12:29:55 »
I like the walking gun turret look of the Mangonel and I honestly wouldn't mind seeing more of it. Biggest problem though is the Rifleman and a few others in it's weight range can do the same job.
I'm thinking this is a problem with most weight classes really. More or less every role is filled already, though in some cases advanced tech can push their limits.

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #75 on: 27 July 2022, 12:56:00 »
No, bad BATTLEMASTER. Only the T-bolt gets away with truly weird wrong side-torso placement. (Top-mounted gun is fine.)

Awww, well alright then.

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #76 on: 27 July 2022, 14:32:01 »
XL engine is 2, gauss are 6 each. 14 slots.

The official sheet has one in each torso. I'll never get the mini, but it's a shame they didn't try to match it for the good version. ultra or LB 10s would have done it.

Damn. For some reason I had it in my head that it was a SFE, which would have nicely used all twelve crits for Gauss- which would be hilariously stupid, but funny. I think when I'd built a test version ages ago that it was an SFE and 4/6, though I don't have access to any of my stuff- it's all packed for moving next week. (Also, I cannot enough recommend the mini, which despite being an ugly Mech is a lot of fun to paint thanks to its detail.)
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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #77 on: 27 July 2022, 14:36:29 »
Awww, well alright then.

*Goes back to making stomping and bang bang noises with Stone Rhino and Marauder minis*
On serious note, ignoring the looks issue, the 3W is boring. A Clan 5/8 heavy with twin Gauss rifles and supporting weapons? Describes so many Clan 'Mechs, even if most of them have ERPPCs instead of Gauss rifles.

The original is kinda silly, so much flavor. And the 4S is a bit different, not many 5/8 HAG-40ss around, are there?

(Also, I cannot enough recommend the mini, which despite being an ugly Mech is a lot of fun to paint thanks to its detail.)
It is one of those pretty uglies IMO. Not like the Yeoman, but a good ugly like the Orion or Thunderbolt.

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #78 on: 27 July 2022, 23:32:49 »
Forgo about the addition of the MNL-4S, nice load out!
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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #79 on: 28 July 2022, 07:35:33 »
Damn. For some reason I had it in my head that it was a SFE, which would have nicely used all twelve crits for Gauss- which would be hilariously stupid, but funny. I think when I'd built a test version ages ago that it was an SFE and 4/6, though I don't have access to any of my stuff- it's all packed for moving next week. (Also, I cannot enough recommend the mini, which despite being an ugly Mech is a lot of fun to paint thanks to its detail.)
Yeah, interestingly enough, if all you do is swap the 5/8 XL engine for a 4/6 SFE you gain 1 out-of-engine DHS and that's it, the tonnages of the two engines match. If you really, really want to be able to hit 8 hexes of speed, on a 4/6 SFE a supercharger is only 2 tons. And that's as far as I'll go down the customs route.
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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #80 on: 28 July 2022, 11:35:08 »
Can the 2nd Guass crits not be split?  Not sure I have ever had to since all I remember that being done with was AC/20s and HGRs.
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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #81 on: 28 July 2022, 11:50:10 »
Can the 2nd Guass crits not be split?  Not sure I have ever had to since all I remember that being done with was AC/20s and HGRs.
No. Only weapons with 8 or more slots can be split. IS GR is 7, LGR 5, Clan GR is 6. The prototype Gauss Rifle can be split as it is 8 slots but not exactly a common thing.

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #82 on: 28 July 2022, 13:18:09 »
Can the 2nd Guass crits not be split?  Not sure I have ever had to since all I remember that being done with was AC/20s and HGRs.

Arrow IV launchers (at least the IS version) can also be split (see the O-Bakemono).

EDIT:  And Sniper cannons (see the Helepolis).  And any other similarly bulky artillery piece.

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« Last Edit: 28 July 2022, 14:42:58 by gyedid »
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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #83 on: 28 July 2022, 20:10:52 »
And Sniper cannons (see the Helepolis).  And any other similarly bulky artillery piece.

We know Sniper Artillery can be split, but I'm not certain if Sniper Cannons can be split.
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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #84 on: 28 July 2022, 21:32:03 »
We know Sniper Artillery can be split, but I'm not certain if Sniper Cannons can be split.

What is the difference between Sniper *Artillery* and Sniper *Cannons*?

cheers,

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So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #85 on: 28 July 2022, 22:00:00 »
Full rifle vs a carbine effectively . . . the cannons are cut down, limited on ammo, and cannot fire past 17 or 18 hexes IIRC.  They also target a hex and not a unit.
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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #86 on: 29 July 2022, 00:17:29 »
The artillery piece functions as artillery.  The cannon functions as an indirect fire ballistic weapon that has a ranged measured in hexes rather than maps and deals less damage, but it uses normal attack rules rather than artillery rules while targeting hexes and functioning as AoE weapons.
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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #87 on: 29 July 2022, 03:27:27 »
We know Sniper Artillery can be split, but I'm not certain if Sniper Cannons can be split.
Sniper and Long Tom Cannons can be split, being 10 and 15 slots, respectively. Thumper Cannon's just 7 slots.

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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #88 on: 29 July 2022, 19:24:22 »
Can you get a Sniper piece onto a Mangonel if you drop the LGR's and ammo?

Cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #89 on: 29 July 2022, 19:50:04 »
Probably, but only in Fan Designs. C:-)
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Re: MoTW: Mangonel
« Reply #90 on: 30 July 2022, 23:07:49 »
Probably, but only in Fan Designs. C:-)

A design thread has now been started here.

EDIT:  Dagnabbit, Emyprus beat me to it.

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

 

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