Future LAM technology

[grimlock1]

Flying over terrain is an advantage. So is the lack of heat. You could also use them to pop up behind terrain/buildings and spot and still have partial cover. I think you'd use the VTOL Mode for the extra speed and to bomb and then convert to Mech mode to do most of the fighting.


Although I am getting confused. Page 36 says 1 Cruise MP per Rotor and then multiply by 1.5 to get the Flank Speed. So 6 Rotors equals 6 Cruise MP and 9 Flank MP. Only page 44 says, 1 MP per Rotor in Mech Mode and 1.5 MP in VTOL Mode. That would be 6 rotors equals 9 Cruise MP and 14 Flank MP. 

Page 44 also says they take 2 crits while page 42 says 1.


It's to early to think.  xp  I think we went with page 36 for using Rotors in Mech mode and page 44 in VTOL mode and we went with Rotors taking only 1 crit otherwise they wouldn't fit in the legs since the other slot has conversion equipment. It's been a while and its too early.

Yeah, that's in the errata. 
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=45671.msg1093924#msg1093924
1 crit per rotor and VTOL mode's cruise is 1.5x the number of rotors in mech mode.

Didn't think about the whole hovering behind partial cover angle...  But I have wondered about that with UMUs.  Could a mech with UMUs in the legs "tread water"?  Need to post that question in the Rules section.

I wasn't discounting VTOL automechs, rather saying that the rotor based movement mode offers some advantages over iJJ, but not overwhelmingly so.   Using VTOL mode to zip across the battlefield is the prime reason to have this I suspect.

[HABeas2]

Nebula California had some VTOL stuff in the Automech chapter. Page  36. It and the associated thread are a bit vague on how "rotors" abstract.  They give an example of an Automech with "6 Rotors."  So I'm guessing the classic main rotor/tail rotor arrangement is pretty rare compared to quad, hex, and octo-rotors. I think there was also something in the Nebula California thread about using rotors for melee, while in mech mode. Don't recall the ruling on that.


edit:  More rules on page 46.

There's a Nebula California thread?

- Herb

[grimlock1]

There's a Nebula California thread?

- Herb

There was.  You remember.  You were there. :-)

[RifleMech]

Yeah, that's in the errata. 
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=45671.msg1093924#msg1093924
1 crit per rotor and VTOL mode's cruise is 1.5x the number of rotors in mech mode.

Cool! Thanks!  :thumbsup: :beer:

Didn't think about the whole hovering behind partial cover angle...  But I have wondered about that with UMUs.  Could a mech with UMUs in the legs "tread water"?  Need to post that question in the Rules section.

Good question.  :thumbsup:

I wasn't discounting VTOL automechs, rather saying that the rotor based movement mode offers some advantages over iJJ, but not overwhelmingly so.   Using VTOL mode to zip across the battlefield is the prime reason to have this I suspect.

It would be the biggest advantage.

There's a Nebula California thread?

- Herb

Hi!

Are these type of AutoMechs possible? If so how'd I make them?
WiGE Mechs
Triple Changes
Amphibious Fighters
Tripod AutoMechs

Thanks : :thumbsup: :beer:
 

[Trailblazer]

On the question raised in the OP:

I used to think LAMs needed more tonnage-saving technologies to be viable, but then I realized that IJJs are the best tonnage-saving tech LAMs could ever have.

You can take a Phoenix Hawk LAM, switch out the engine for a 150 SFE and add IJJs for a 3/5/5 movement profile, and end up with 14 tons for weapons at max armor... without changing its jump or AirMech movement values.  For a 55 ton LAM, you can get 16 tons and max armor.  That's without composite or small cockpit; if you add those things, you can get up to 20 tons to play with.  Now that's a powerful LAM!

[grimlock1]

Didn't think about the whole hovering behind partial cover angle...  But I have wondered about that with UMUs.  Could a mech with UMUs in the legs "tread water"?  Need to post that question in the Rules section.

Good question.  :thumbsup:

Nevermind. TO pg 295.  A mech has to be completly submerged to use UMU movment.
RAW would mean a mech with the Overhead Arms quirk would have to be 3 levels down to use UMU...

[Retry]

On the question raised in the OP:

I used to think LAMs needed more tonnage-saving technologies to be viable, but then I realized that IJJs are the best tonnage-saving tech LAMs could ever have.

You can take a Phoenix Hawk LAM, switch out the engine for a 150 SFE and add IJJs for a 3/5/5 movement profile, and end up with 14 tons for weapons at max armor... without changing its jump or AirMech movement values.  For a 55 ton LAM, you can get 16 tons and max armor.  That's without composite or small cockpit; if you add those things, you can get up to 20 tons to play with.  Now that's a powerful LAM!

You can definitely do that, and one of my AU customs does basically that.  The only thing about that is, it becomes less of a "Land-Air Mech" and more of an "Aerospace Fighter with a hover mode".

[Red Pins]

...Don't they need a minimum movement?  Would that 3/5/5 meet the requirements?

[grimlock1]

...Don't they need a minimum movement?  Would that 3/5/5 meet the requirements?

Airmech cruise is 3x jump MP and flank is 1.5 that. They can maintain altitude in a hover for 5 MP.  Or they need to move at least 5 hexes, but moving while you are higher than elevation 1 costs 2 MP.

So 3/5/5 will turn into 15/23, but that won't go as far as you might expect, if you want to maintain more than one elevation above the underlying terrain. I need look at the WIGE rules again.

[Maingunnery]

On the question raised in the OP:

I used to think LAMs needed more tonnage-saving technologies to be viable, but then I realized that IJJs are the best tonnage-saving tech LAMs could ever have.

You can take a Phoenix Hawk LAM, switch out the engine for a 150 SFE and add IJJs for a 3/5/5 movement profile, and end up with 14 tons for weapons at max armor... without changing its jump or AirMech movement values.  For a 55 ton LAM, you can get 16 tons and max armor.  That's without composite or small cockpit; if you add those things, you can get up to 20 tons to play with.  Now that's a powerful LAM!

Something like this?:

Code: [Select]

Effort LAM

Mass: 55 tons
Chassis: Composite LAM
Power Plant: 165 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 32.4 kph
Maximum Speed: 54 kph
Jump Jets: Improved
     Jump Capacity: 150 meters
Armor: Standard
Armament:
     2 ER Large Laser
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-X-F
Cost: 5,383,615 C-bills

Type: Effort LAM
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Tonnage: 55
Battle Value: 1,872

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure            Composite               3
LAM Conversion Equipment                            5.5
Engine                        165 Fusion              6
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Jumping MP: 5
AirMech Cruising MP: 15
AirMech Flanking MP: 23
Safe Thrust: 5
Max Thrust: 8
Double Heat Sink              13 [26]                 3
Gyro                                                  2
Cockpit                                               3
Armor Factor                  184                  11.5

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Head                    3         9     
     Center Torso            18        27   
     Center Torso (rear)               8     
     R/L Torso               13        20   
     R/L Torso (rear)                  6     
     R/L Arm                 9         18   
     R/L Leg                 13        26   


Right Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Left Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand

Weapons
and Ammo                    Location  Critical   Heat    Tonnage
Improved Jump Jet              LL        2        -       1.0   
Liquid Storage                 CT        1        -       1.0   
2 Liquid Storage (1 ton)s      RT        2        -       2.0   
2 Double Heat Sinks            RT        6        -       2.0   
Improved Jump Jet              RT        2        -       1.0   
ER Large Laser                 LA        2        12      5.0   
2 Double Heat Sinks            LA        6        -       2.0   
Double Heat Sink               LT        3        -       1.0   
2 Improved Jump Jets           LT        4        -       2.0   
Cargo                          LT        3        -       3.0   
Improved Jump Jet              RL        2        -       1.0   
ER Large Laser                 RA        2        12      5.0   
2 Double Heat Sinks            RA        6        -       2.0   
(cargo is placeholder for bomb bay).


EDIT: with the same chassis I can also do this:

Code: [Select]

Bomb LAM

Mass: 55 tons
Chassis: Composite LAM
Power Plant: 165 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 32.4 kph
Maximum Speed: 54 kph
Jump Jets: Improved
     Jump Capacity: 150 meters
Armor: Standard
Armament:
     4 Medium Laser
     1 TAG
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-X-F
Cost: 4,840,340 C-bills

Type: Bomb LAM
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Tonnage: 55
Battle Value: 1,506

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure            Composite               3
LAM Conversion Equipment                            5.5
Engine                        165 Fusion              6
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Jumping MP: 5
AirMech Cruising MP: 15
AirMech Flanking MP: 23
Safe Thrust: 5
Max Thrust: 8
Double Heat Sink              10 [20]                 0
Gyro                                                  2
Cockpit                                               3
Armor Factor                  184                  11.5

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Head                    3         9     
     Center Torso            18        27   
     Center Torso (rear)               8     
     R/L Torso               13        20   
     R/L Torso (rear)                  6     
     R/L Arm                 9         18   
     R/L Leg                 13        26   


Right Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Left Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand

Weapons
and Ammo                    Location  Critical   Heat    Tonnage
Improved Jump Jet              LL        2        -       1.0   
TAG                            CT        1        0       1.0   
Cargo                          RT        6        -       6.0   
2 Liquid Storage (1 ton)s      RT        2        -       2.0   
Improved Jump Jet              RT        2        -       1.0   
2 Medium Lasers                LA        2        3       2.0   
2 Double Heat Sinks            LA        6        -       2.0   
Cargo                          LT        6        -       6.0   
2 Improved Jump Jets           LT        4        -       2.0   
Improved Jump Jet              RL        2        -       1.0   
2 Medium Lasers                RA        2        3       2.0   
2 Double Heat Sinks            RA        6        -       2.0   


[HABeas2]

There was.  You remember.  You were there. :-)

I am capable of routinely forgetting the names of my own family members and going "wait; did I take my meds tonight or not?" on a daily basis. Taking part in a thread from 5 years ago is easy to forget.

Hi!

Are these type of AutoMechs possible? If so how'd I make them?
WiGE Mechs
Triple Changes
Amphibious Fighters
Tripod AutoMechs

Thanks : :thumbsup: :beer:

In order: Yes, Not *exactly*, Yes, and Maybe. Honestly, it's up to your GM to make the decisions in gray areas.

Amphibious Fighters and WiGEs are basically Fighter-Mechs (LAMs) when you get down to it, and you'd build them as such. Although I don't think any game rules support using Thrust underwater, but water-landing gear is likely not too hard and could be handwaved as an alternate form of the standard Landing Gear.

Triple-Changers are basically... standard (tri-modal) LAMs, where the AirMech mode might be considered a third mode. Once more, your GM should decide on how to work it; I could see getting creative with adding track/wheel features to the leg or side torso  locations that support an alternate movement in the third form, but that's basically burning more tonnage/slots on such gear to accommodate a tertiary movement mode. Your Wing Blitzer DemoCon for example, thus would have a fighter mode, a tracked vehicle mode, and finally a Mech mode, and would lose the ability to use movement types based on what motive features suffer critical hits. Let's face it, though; the Syberian AutoMechs are basically illegal and non-canon anyway, so how they work on your table is up to you.

And Tripods, well... Again, you have to get creative, because the added leg costs tonnage and has to somehow be accounted for in all configurations (likely assigned to either the rear or front/nose of any vehicle modes).

*shrug*

- Herb

[Col Toda]

Double Heat sinks  should be good if they are all in the engine  .  Clan mixed  tech should be good when it becomes  advanced  tech . When double heat sinks were prototyped they only existed outside the existing engine which still has single heat sinks . Do not know how practical  double heat sinks in the engine only and single heat sinks  outside the engine  as a prototype  system mighr function  like .

[Trailblazer]

You can definitely do that, and one of my AU customs does basically that.  The only thing about that is, it becomes less of a "Land-Air Mech" and more of an "Aerospace Fighter with a hover mode".

The 'Mech mode is still good in cities, heavy woods, mountainous terrain... these are the places where jump 5 is a good movement profile regardless of your walking speed.  They're also the places where AirMech mode is at a disadvantage.  So you've pretty much got your bases covered!

[Retry]

The 'Mech mode is still good in cities, heavy woods, mountainous terrain...

Tactically, not strategically.  During a local battle, it's fine to jump around your opponents, but you're not going to play Battlemech Hopskotch across the entire Himalayas.

[Trailblazer]

Tactically, not strategically.  During a local battle, it's fine to jump around your opponents, but you're not going to play Battlemech Hopskotch across the entire Himalayas.

Yeah, if you need to do strategic movement across a mountain range, that's when you gotta switch to fighter mode.

[RifleMech]

On the question raised in the OP:

I used to think LAMs needed more tonnage-saving technologies to be viable, but then I realized that IJJs are the best tonnage-saving tech LAMs could ever have.

You can take a Phoenix Hawk LAM, switch out the engine for a 150 SFE and add IJJs for a 3/5/5 movement profile, and end up with 14 tons for weapons at max armor... without changing its jump or AirMech movement values.  For a 55 ton LAM, you can get 16 tons and max armor.  That's without composite or small cockpit; if you add those things, you can get up to 20 tons to play with.  Now that's a powerful LAM!

Prototype IJJ weigh half as much.

Good question.  :thumbsup:

Nevermind. TO pg 295.  A mech has to be completly submerged to use UMU movment.
RAW would mean a mech with the Overhead Arms quirk would have to be 3 levels down to use UMU...

bummer but it could still work underwater. The terrain doesn't have to be flat so you could use UMUs to float half way up a level 2 hill to spot over it and have partial cover.

...Don't they need a minimum movement?  Would that 3/5/5 meet the requirements?

They need a minimum of 3 jump jets. Although Herb did say in the Nebula California thread that you could fluff them as turbo props and put one on a biplane FighterMech. ;D

For LAMs though you've got to have 3 jump jets. So you could have a 2/3/3 mech and be legal. The problem for it is that you don't have enough MP in AirMech mode to do more than hover. So it'd be good for enclosed or built up areas but not out in the open as they can use hover for up to 4 hexes. Which is all they're going to be capable of anyway.

In order: Yes, Not *exactly*, Yes, and Maybe. Honestly, it's up to your GM to make the decisions in gray areas.

Cool!  >:D :thumbsup:

Amphibious Fighters and WiGEs are basically Fighter-Mechs (LAMs) when you get down to it, and you'd build them as such. Although I don't think any game rules support using Thrust underwater, but water-landing gear is likely not too hard and could be handwaved as an alternate form of the standard Landing Gear.

Would WiGE Fighter-Mechs move like AirMechs? #JJxs? Or would they need JJs at all since they don't fly as high? If they don't have JJ would they still have other motive crits like CarMechs and how fast would they be?

I hadn't thought of using Thrust underwater but I suppose UMUs could be added to turn it into a subfighter.

Hand waving would work for skis and floats but what about true amphibious planes? Hand wave a flotation hull?

Triple-Changers are basically... standard (tri-modal) LAMs, where the AirMech mode might be considered a third mode. Once more, your GM should decide on how to work it; I could see getting creative with adding track/wheel features to the leg or side torso  locations that support an alternate movement in the third form, but that's basically burning more tonnage/slots on such gear to accommodate a tertiary movement mode. Your Wing Blitzer DemoCon for example, thus would have a fighter mode, a tracked vehicle mode, and finally a Mech mode, and would lose the ability to use movement types based on what motive features suffer critical hits. Let's face it, though; the Syberian AutoMechs are basically illegal and non-canon anyway, so how they work on your table is up to you.

 >:D :thumbsup:  Cool!  Thanks!

And Tripods, well... Again, you have to get creative, because the added leg costs tonnage and has to somehow be accounted for in all configurations (likely assigned to either the rear or front/nose of any vehicle modes).

*shrug*

- Herb

Cool! I wondered as a saw a transformer like the Focke-Wulf Triebflügel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wulf_Triebfl%C3%BCgel  Only the
jets/rotors were further down and became the legs. It was weird looking but cool.  :o

So would Unicron be a InstalationMech with a Jump Jet or a LAM with the non atmospheric quirk and how heavy would he be? >:D

Thanks!  :thumbsup: :beer: :beer:

[HABeas2]

Would WiGE Fighter-Mechs move like AirMechs? #JJxs? Or would they need JJs at all since they don't fly as high? If they don't have JJ would they still have other motive crits like CarMechs and how fast would they be?

They'd need JJs. WiGEs are technically a form of aircraft designed for surface-skimming altitude, and use what amounts of aircraft engines and wings to achieve their mobility. If it were up to me, and your goal was a transforming WiGE vehicle mode, I'd make the JJs serve as a WiGE Cruise MP and calc its flank normally. It's a kludgework approach, but that's how I'd handle it.

I hadn't thought of using Thrust underwater but I suppose UMUs could be added to turn it into a subfighter.

Hand waving would work for skis and floats but what about true amphibious planes? Hand wave a flotation hull?

Bear in mind that LAMs--and the AutoMechs based on them--are basically BattleMechs, which are intrinsically considered sealed-hull machines. So long as their armor is not breached, they can operate on or under the water. If you're already handwaving the landing gear as floatation gear, you can basically add the note that the AutoMech can land, lift-off, and float on water as long as it's in vehicle mode. (I wouldn't allow them to do so in Mech mode, though; they'd need UMU for floatation and naval movement to do that.)

Cool! I wondered as a saw a transformer like the Focke-Wulf Triebflügel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wulf_Triebfl%C3%BCgel  Only the
jets/rotors were further down and became the legs. It was weird looking but cool.  :o

Don't let me stop you.

So would Unicron be a InstalationMech with a Jump Jet or a LAM with the non atmospheric quirk and how heavy would he be? >:D

The AutoMechs of Syberia have no equivalency for Unicron. Such a machine isn't even possible using WarShip-scale rules. And we all know how I feel about THOSE...

- Herb

[RifleMech]

They'd need JJs. WiGEs are technically a form of aircraft designed for surface-skimming altitude, and use what amounts of aircraft engines and wings to achieve their mobility. If it were up to me, and your goal was a transforming WiGE vehicle mode, I'd make the JJs serve as a WiGE Cruise MP and calc its flank normally. It's a kludgework approach, but that's how I'd handle it.

I would have thought they'd be more like VehicleMechs but that works for me.  :thumbsup: Does the #JJ equal walking or running MP? Wouldn't they be slower than slower than HoverMechs and VTOL Mechs?  :-\ 

Bear in mind that LAMs--and the AutoMechs based on them--are basically BattleMechs, which are intrinsically considered sealed-hull machines. So long as their armor is not breached, they can operate on or under the water. If you're already handwaving the landing gear as floatation gear, you can basically add the note that the AutoMech can land, lift-off, and float on water as long as it's in vehicle mode. (I wouldn't allow them to do so in Mech mode, though; they'd need UMU for floatation and naval movement to do that.)

That's cool.  I was thinking that amphibious FighterMechs would need Float Crits but handwaving works too.   ;)  UMUs for flotation and movement in  mech mode makes sense.
 

Don't let me stop you.

>:D
Just wish I could find that picture again

The AutoMechs of Syberia have no equivalency for Unicron. Such a machine isn't even possible using WarShip-scale rules. And we all know how I feel about THOSE...

- Herb

Nuke them and then nuke their remains!

I was referring more to the shape of his vehicle mode. It's space stationish but I don't think it could fly in an atmosphere. Would it still be a FighterMech?  I'm leaning to yes but Unicron seems a lot bigger than 55 tons. Make him bigger anyway the way the Champion LAM was?

Are FighterMechs VTOL or would a FighterMech like Jet Ram need to add VTOL Equipment?
If Prop FighterMechs can get by with fewer than 3 JJ would that also apply to Satallite like Fighter Mechs?
I'm not seeing anything that says SuperChargers can't be mounted, so if they can, do they work in both modes? Are there Modes they don't work in depending on the AutoMech type?
I think the ruling was VTOL Mechs couldn't use VTOL Jet boosters? If so, can they use JJs in the same manner? Can they use Mast Mounts? I don't remember.

Thanks!  :thumbsup: :beer: :beer:

[HABeas2]

I would have thought they'd be more like VehicleMechs but that works for me.  :thumbsup: Does the #JJ equal walking or running MP? Wouldn't they be slower than slower than HoverMechs and VTOL Mechs?  :-\ 

Well, again, if I were to add the rules myself, I would make a WiGE AutoMech conversion use the Vehicle Table, but they derive their WiGE MP in that mode based on their Jump Jets and not their Engine Rating. So you can end up with an AutoMech that moves slower in Vehicle mode than it does in Mech mode, if you're stingy with the jets.

That's cool.  I was thinking that amphibious FighterMechs would need Float Crits but handwaving works too.   ;)  UMUs for flotation and movement in  mech mode makes sense.

I'm being generous to the amphibious FighterMechs maybe by allowing the flotation gear for free, but that only extends as far as landing, taxi, and takeoff on the surface of water. The UMU would be optional if you wanted the thing to actually "swim" any more than that.
 

Nuke them and then nuke their remains!

I was referring more to the shape of his vehicle mode. It's space stationish but I don't think it could fly in an atmosphere. Would it still be a FighterMech?  I'm leaning to yes but Unicron seems a lot bigger than 55 tons. Make him bigger anyway the way the Champion LAM was?

Well, again, I wouldn't make the World Eater under these rules, but I could see someone making a ball-shaped Emplacement AutoMech and just dropping it into orbit with jump jets that basically are handwaved to do the job of station-keeping thrusters. Otherwise, Unicron could be a non-transforming AutoMech brain on the biggest DropShip you can make, only this Dropper is designed with horns around the nose (at the center of which may be a mass of energy weapons or sub-capital lasers), and a ring of engines akin to the Mammoth that have a reinforced band around them (for his "halo").

Are FighterMechs VTOL or would a FighterMech like Jet Ram need to add VTOL Equipment?

As they alt modes fly like Aerospace fighters, and Aerospace fighters generally get the ability to hover by default (see p. 88, TW), additional VTOL gear isn't necessary.

If Prop FighterMechs can get by with fewer than 3 JJ would that also apply to Satallite like Fighter Mechs?
I'm not seeing anything that says SuperChargers can't be mounted, so if they can, do they work in both modes? Are there Modes they don't work in depending on the AutoMech type?
I think the ruling was VTOL Mechs couldn't use VTOL Jet boosters? If so, can they use JJs in the same manner? Can they use Mast Mounts? I don't remember.

I'd again base the effect of superchargers and such on how the rules might affect Mechs with the same. The supercharger doesn't boost jump range on a Mech, for example, so any alt mode with MP based on jets or UMU will only be able to apply the supercharger effect to their Mech mode MP.

As to what else can/can't be mounted, the two relevant quotes I see Are:

"Except as noted on this list, an AutoMech may use any
equipment not prohibited to BattleMechs, IndustrialMechs,
or aerospace fighters"

"Aside from the various items listed under the
AutoMech Conversion Equipment Table, any items that require the
allocation of critical slots to more than one hit location may not
be mounted on convertible AutoMechs. This includes items that
may normally be split between multiple hit locations on other
BattleMech types."

If you want to add something else on the fringes--like a Mast Mount--that's technically disallowed by the above, but since we're already talking rules beyond the rules.... that's up to you. A Mast Mount would have to be placed in the same location as the rotor, though, if you allow it.

....Are we derailing this thread?

- Herb

[Maingunnery]

....Are we derailing this thread?

No, it is inspirational and LAM relevant enough.

[RifleMech]

Well, again, if I were to add the rules myself, I would make a WiGE AutoMech conversion use the Vehicle Table, but they derive their WiGE MP in that mode based on their Jump Jets and not their Engine Rating. So you can end up with an AutoMech that moves slower in Vehicle mode than it does in Mech mode, if you're stingy with the jets.

So on the Automech Conversion Equipment Table add in
WiGE AutoMechs
Conversion Gear 4 (1 per Arm/Leg)**
Jump Jets 1 per VTOL MP (Leg and Torso locations only)

I can do that  :thumbsup: but what's the limit on the number of JJs? Walking or Running Speed? Do they calculate their Cruise/Flank the way VTOL and Sub Mechs do? Number of JJ or Rotors or UMUs x 1.5 = Cruising Speed?

I'm being generous to the amphibious FighterMechs maybe by allowing the flotation gear for free, but that only extends as far as landing, taxi, and takeoff on the surface of water. The UMU would be optional if you wanted the thing to actually "swim" any more than that.

That's all I thought they'd be doing. :)

 

Well, again, I wouldn't make the World Eater under these rules, but I could see someone making a ball-shaped Emplacement AutoMech and just dropping it into orbit with jump jets that basically are handwaved to do the job of station-keeping thrusters. Otherwise, Unicron could be a non-transforming AutoMech brain on the biggest DropShip you can make, only this Dropper is designed with horns around the nose (at the center of which may be a mass of energy weapons or sub-capital lasers), and a ring of engines akin to the Mammoth that have a reinforced band around them (for his "halo").

Ooo Dropship size  :drool: How do I make it? >:D 
Emplacement AutoMech works. Would a JJ for a 200 ton mech weigh 4 tons?  :-\

As they alt modes fly like Aerospace fighters, and Aerospace fighters generally get the ability to hover by default (see p. 88, TW), additional VTOL gear isn't necessary.

So I just handwave Thrust's (sorry mornings  xp) visible wing thrusts as being older versions or something. Cool!  :thumbsup:

I'd again base the effect of superchargers and such on how the rules might affect Mechs with the same. The supercharger doesn't boost jump range on a Mech, for example, so any alt mode with MP based on jets or UMU will only be able to apply the supercharger effect to their Mech mode MP.

So Superchargers only boosts the speed of AutoMechs whose Vehicle Motive Systems are built in? Wheeled, Tracked, Hover, and Floats? That's cool.

As to what else can/can't be mounted, the two relevant quotes I see Are:

"Except as noted on this list, an AutoMech may use any
equipment not prohibited to BattleMechs, IndustrialMechs,
or aerospace fighters"

So as long as I can mount an item on one of those it's legal on a LAM or AutoMech? I included LAM since it's pretty much the same rule.

I ask because I keep being told, "No" even though I don't see anything that says, "No" in the rules. In fact the

Except as noted on this list,

part and the list permits it.

For example I want to build an FighterMech/LAM using an Industrial Structure and Commercial Armor.

IO and Nebula California only say that they IS can't take any critical slots.

NC page 43

Armor: Convertible AutoMechs under 100 tons may not use hardened armor and any other armor that requires critical hit slots, including ferro-fibrous armor, modular armor, and stealth armor. Convertible AutoMechs over 100 tons may use hardened armor in addition to all other armor types that do not require critical hit slots. All AutoMech types may use armored components.
Non-convertible AutoMechs may use any Inner Sphere armor type permitted for their chassis type.
Internal Structure: Convertible AutoMechs may not use any internal structure that requires critical hit slots, such as endo steel. Non-convertible AutoMechs may use any Inner Sphere internal structure technology permitted for their chassis type.

IO page 114

Armor: LAMs may not use hardened armor and any other armor that
requires critical hit slots, including ferro-fibrous armor, modular armor,
and stealth armor. LAMs may use armored components, however.
Internal Structure: LAMs may not use any internal structure that
requires critical hit slots, such as endo steel.

To me it reads I can use it as long as I don't take critical slots.

And then there's things like Physical Weapons and other items that are legal on one unit but not another. Can I still build a Dump Truck AutoMech even though Dumpers are allowed on IndustrialMechs but not BattleMechs or Aerospace Fighters?  ??? Or a LAM with a Sword and Imagers which I think you okayed in the Nebula California thread. If it isn't as long as it can be mounted on one and doesn't break any of the exemptions they can be mounted, the number of non weapon items available shrinks drastically. 

"Aside from the various items listed under the
AutoMech Conversion Equipment Table, any items that require the
allocation of critical slots to more than one hit location may not
be mounted on convertible AutoMechs. This includes items that
may normally be split between multiple hit locations on other
BattleMech types."

Kind of rules out adding Track Units and Claws.  :(

If you want to add something else on the fringes--like a Mast Mount--that's technically disallowed by the above, but since we're already talking rules beyond the rules.... that's up to you. A Mast Mount would have to be placed in the same location as the rotor, though, if you allow it.

Cool!  :)  I'd also have to assign a Rotor as having the Mast Mount since I'd likely have more than 1 Rotor?

What about Prop FighterMechs getting by with fewer than 3 JJs? Would that also apply to Satallite like FighterMechs?

Since we now have QuadVee Rules, can their be Quad AutoMechs based on those rules?

Thanks!  :thumbsup: :beer:

....Are we derailing this thread?
- Herb

No, it is inspirational and LAM relevant enough.

Thanks  :thumbsup: :beer:

[RifleMech]

Would a Tiltrotor be a VTOL Mech or a FighterMech? I ask because it could go either way or both ways since we have the Karnov and King Karnov.

[grimlock1]

Would a Tiltrotor be a VTOL Mech or a FighterMech? I ask because it could go either way or both ways since we have the Karnov and King Karnov.

TW doesn't really distinguish between tilt rotors and conventional helicopters. If the Automech has rotors, it should be some kind of multi-rotor VTOL.  At least in my head.

[RifleMech]

TW doesn't really distinguish between tilt rotors and conventional helicopters. If the Automech has rotors, it should be some kind of multi-rotor VTOL.  At least in my head.

True but then again JJ can be fluff as Turbo Props so I guess Tiltrotors could go either way depending on Cruise/Flank or Thrust speeds.  :-\

[grimlock1]

True but then again JJ can be fluff as Turbo Props so I guess Tiltrotors could go either way depending on Cruise/Flank or Thrust speeds.  :-\

Hey, your table, your rules.

[RifleMech]

Hey, your table, your rules.

True but I was looking at a president with the Karnovs.

Out of curiosity, why no Primitive AutoMechs? Not even nonconverting AutoMechs?

Can AutoMechs be built as FrankenMechs?

Are AutoMechs vulnerable to the Centurion Weapons System while converting?


Is it okay to move crits around, maybe remove or add some depending on the vehicle? Like if a FighterMech actually had quad landing gear, removing the CT landing gear and having 2 landing gear slots in the side torsos.


Another question

A Prop FighterMechs still follows all the rules for Prop Aircraft Right? As in don't exceed Thrust 9 and so on?


Thanks :) :beer: :beer:

[Maingunnery]

Pushing it to the limit, is it still acceptable?

Composite Engine & Gyro (reduce weight by a third, but more fragile)
LAM Jet (JJ but with +2 ASF thrust bonus)
Raised to 75 tons.

Code: [Select]

Archer-K LAM

Mass: 75 tons
Chassis: Composite LAM
Power Plant: 300 Composite Fusion
Cruising Speed: 43.2 kph
Maximum Speed: 64.8 kph
Jump Jets: Standard
     Jump Capacity: 120 meters
Armor: Standard
Armament:
     2 ER Large Laser
     2 Bomb Bay (6 tons)


Type: Archer-K LAM
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Tonnage: 75
Battle Value: xxxx

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure            Composite               4
LAM Conversion Equipment                            7.5
Engine                        300 Composite          13
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 4
AirMech Cruising MP: 12
AirMech Flanking MP: 18
Safe Thrust: [6]
Max Thrust: [9]
Double Heat Sink              12 [24]                 2
Gyro                          Composite               2
Cockpit                                               3
Armor Factor                  231                  14.5

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Head                    3         9     
     Center Torso            23        34   
     Center Torso (rear)               12   
     R/L Torso               16        24   
     R/L Torso (rear)                  8     
     R/L Arm                 12        24   
     R/L Leg                 16        32   


Right Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Left Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand

Weapons
and Ammo              Location  Critical   Heat    Tonnage
LAM Jet                  LL        1        -       1.0   
Bomb Bay                 RT        6        -       6.0   
Liquid Storage           RT        1        -       1.0   
CASE                     RT        1        -       0.5   
LAM Jet                  RT        1        -       1.0   
ER Large Laser           LA        2        12      5.0   
Bomb Bay                 LT        6        -       6.0   
Liquid Storage           LT        1        -       1.0   
CASE                     LT        1        -       0.5   
LAM Jet                  LT        1        -       1.0   
LAM Jet                  RL        1        -       1.0   
ER Large Laser           RA        2        12      5.0

Code: [Select]

Archer-M LAM

Mass: 75 tons
Chassis: Composite LAM
Power Plant: 300 Composite Fusion
Cruising Speed: 43.2 kph
Maximum Speed: 64.8 kph
Jump Jets: Standard
     Jump Capacity: 120 meters
Armor: Standard
Armament:
     2 LRM 20
     2 Medium Laser
 

Type: Archer LAM-M
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Tonnage: 75
Battle Value: xxxx

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure            Composite               4
LAM Conversion Equipment                            7.5
Engine                        300 Composite          13
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 4
AirMech Cruising MP: 12
AirMech Flanking MP: 18
Safe Thrust: [6]
Max Thrust: [9]
Double Heat Sink              10 [20]                 0
Gyro                          Composite               2
Cockpit                                               3
Armor Factor                  231                  14.5

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Head                    3         9     
     Center Torso            23        34   
     Center Torso (rear)               12   
     R/L Torso               16        24   
     R/L Torso (rear)                  8     
     R/L Arm                 12        24   
     R/L Leg                 16        32   


Right Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Left Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand

Weapons
and Ammo              Location  Critical   Heat    Tonnage
LAM Jet                  LL        1        -       1.0   
LRM 20                   RT        5        6       10.0 
LRM 20 Ammo (12)         RT        2        -       2.0   
LAM Jet                  RT        1        -       1.0   
Medium Laser             LA        1        3       1.0   
LRM 20                   LT        5        6       10.0 
LRM 20 Ammo (12)         LT        2        -       2.0   
Liquid Storage           LT        1        -       1.0   
LAM Jet                  LT        1        -       1.0   
LAM Jet                  RL        1        -       1.0   
Medium Laser             RA        1        3       1.0   

[RifleMech]

Looks cool  :thumbsup:

[packhntr]

I have contemplated LAM build rules for a LONG time.
1: SFE, XLFE and LFE all allowed
2: standard, composite and Endo-Steel internals allowed.
3: Double Heat sinks allowed, however, they can only be engine and torso mounted.
4: standard, XL, compact Gyro Allowed
5: Only Standard and Stealth armor allowed
6: Gains a heat reduction same as partial wings while in AirMech and Fighter mode

Weapons. 
Here is where things get "tricky". A weapon CANNOT be split into multiple locations.  And if a weapon uses ammunition, it MUST be in the same location.  Reason is the conversion equipment makes routing of ammo feed impossible.  Split ammo bin only allowed if weapon is torso mounted.

Weight:
LAMs above 55t are allowed.  However.  Conversion equipment weighs 50% more (though I cannot honestly see a 100t LAM)

Thoughts?

[Maingunnery]

I have contemplated LAM build rules for a LONG time.
1: SFE, XLFE and LFE all allowed
2: standard, composite and Endo-Steel internals allowed.
3: Double Heat sinks allowed, however, they can only be engine and torso mounted.
4: standard, XL, compact Gyro Allowed
5: Only Standard and Stealth armor allowed
6: Gains a heat reduction same as partial wings while in AirMech and Fighter mode

Weapons. 
Here is where things get "tricky". A weapon CANNOT be split into multiple locations.  And if a weapon uses ammunition, it MUST be in the same location.  Reason is the conversion equipment makes routing of ammo feed impossible.  Split ammo bin only allowed if weapon is torso mounted.

Weight:
LAMs above 55t are allowed.  However.  Conversion equipment weighs 50% more (though I cannot honestly see a 100t LAM)

Thoughts?

On (2), what about replacing Endo-steel option with Endo-composite?
Also with allowing XL and light engines wouldn't that also allow weapons split between torso locations?