Author Topic: Shimmering Sword Art  (Read 20219 times)

marauder648

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #60 on: 19 December 2017, 13:07:15 »
And it's one of the sexiest designs in BT!

*pats on the shoulder whilst calling for the blokes with the nice white coats*

I'll agree, the later re-working was (the original Phoenix design was not however) but the original...ugh...I mean..how does it even move, why does it hold itself so high off the ground with the big SHOOT ME belly.  Looking at its leg joints it must move like if you held your arm out at your side, bent your elbow so your arm was pointed down and then just waggled back and forth.  That would look..okay, in a TV shot thats 30+ years old.  But you try selling that to todays market and they'd call it cheap, lazy and rubbish.

And ooh! Never seen that gif before :) So thats how it would move...intersting but still...well...mmnngh....special I guess..?
« Last Edit: 19 December 2017, 13:09:42 by marauder648 »
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Juodas Varnas

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #61 on: 19 December 2017, 13:13:49 »
*pats on the shoulder whilst calling for the blokes with the nice white coats*

I'll agree, the later re-working was (the original Phoenix design was not however) but the original...ugh...I mean..how does it even move, why does it hold itself so high off the ground with the big SHOOT ME belly.  Looking at its leg joints it must move like if you held your arm out at your side, bent your elbow so your arm was pointed down and then just waggled back and forth.  That would look..okay, in a TV shot thats 30+ years old.  But you try selling that to todays market and they'd call it cheap, lazy and rubbish.

Dakkon

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #62 on: 19 December 2017, 13:50:55 »
As a bit of a new comer to Battletech I like the older sculpts myself, unseen included. They aesthetically fit the time period they were made in (in-universe that is) and they provide a nice artistic contrast between newer sculpts from later periods in Battletech. (Especially if you're playing some sort of Clan Invasion scenario and you use MWO derived miniatures for the Clans and older IWM sculpts for the Inner Sphere)

Although, some of these nuseen sculpts aesthetically fit well enough into the succession wars/star league time period that I'd be willing to use them. Unfortunately, as I'm finding out with the new shadow hawk sculpt, they don't scale very well with the older stuff (It's not much shorter than the old Banshee miniature).
« Last Edit: 19 December 2017, 14:00:52 by Dakkon »

beachhead1985

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #63 on: 21 December 2017, 23:12:32 »


Well, for the record? This is what I see when I look at my Flea minis.

I actually think it looks more solid and robust than a lot of other light mechs; which I like. While at the same time, it doesn't have as many shot-traps as it could have. It looks over-gunned and simplistic. And like doing more than about 90kph is asking too much of it.

And we own the Flea, so why not?

I get that there is a lot invested in the current art flux and frankly; so far I'm about as happy as I realistically could be with the nuseen stuff. There are a few I haven't seen yet that I remain emotionally invested in (Goliath, for instance) but I was never going to like all of them unless each mech went though the kind of open-forum art critique we see in the fan funding threads for the projects we put through there. How hard is that without base art to work from? No clue; not an artistic bone in my body.

There's a lot of good points here, but I have few of my own as well.

1. Don't chase realism too far. At the end of that path lies ground pressure and the sure and certain knowledge that "Realistic" Mechs wouldn't look remotely like any of ours do. Frankly; I think the 3085 Scorpion---which I like---is possibly the most realistic mech I've ever seen in BT.
2. We shouldn't chase fads. Fads change and we cannot afford, nor should we seek to change the art style of the line with Hollywood fashions. Be a Star Wars; not a Star Trek. IMO; we're better off with a distinct art style we can plant the flag of the franchise on. Should we make that our hill to die on? No. That would be the customization and building rules, because while every single IP has their own art style, changing or not; none have the level of personalization that the BTU does.
3. It frankly doesn't matter what the mechs look like. What matters is the story. That is what needs to evolve and grow if the franchise is to survive.

I know a lot of people are excited for new art; I am too, to a point and yes; I have a price: give me a Centurion that doesn't look like it escaped from the EXTREME 90s or Garbage Pail Kids and I'll come around considerably (and I *think* that's coming). But the idea that we are one Technical Readout from paradise is madness and I say that as a guy who really wants to see Golden Century and some more Succession Wars XTROs. The look of any one given mech or even those of a given era is not driving new players away; that's silly. I've brought four people into this game based on the old art alone and they all left for the same reason; can't find the stuff in stores and can't find people to play. New art won't change that.

Be excited for that, by all means. But the war is getting the stuff in production, getting the stores to carry it and getting enough of it made and on an ongoing basis that the new bloods can get their hands on it, after the pre-orders and quick grabs from us old guys buy up the initial stock.

Shim has done some great work here; objectively it is awesome art. However I feel about one or two or more models doesn't matter much; I'll never have to guess which side of the head is the face like I did with 3025, so it is objectively better art. And I'm not going to not buy a boxed set because it has a locust or an Ostscout in it. That Flea? We can agree to disagree.

I'm not real swayed by the realism arguments anyways. These mechs; the unseen and getting them back in a current form we can be proud of is more about *beating* HG than anything else for me. Realism arguments in BT begin and end for me with things like the suspension of the Bulwark and the proliferation of huge, exposed 90s Gatling guns, Little-David-Calibre guns and ammo feeds that we see in much of the Dark Age stuff. Once that's a feature in the universe...the form and substance of realism is dead to me; we already know what we are once we bring that into the main canon, now we're negotiating so far as I'm concerned and the price is very low indeed.

So, like the hip joints on a Ostscout or Scorpion being too spindly? Meh, okay; you are right, but now what? So what? The next time a new, forward of 3150 TRO comes out, there will be a whole lot more dark age stuff in it; will I be hearing the same arguments then? Maybe I will. But likely not, because many players either got into the game through MWDA or just liked it and those models hold an emotional resonance for them that I will never feel. Ditto the new MWO/MW5/BTPC crowd, will feel the same way. Just like I feel about the mechs I got to know first through the Crescent Hawk's Revenge manual. However; give me a Dark Age art retcon and then I'd be willing to sit down and have some real talk about realism in BT art going forward. Absent that; it's whatever milks your Guernsey.

What I'm getting at is that for all it's logical weight, and while I tend to enjoy it as well in my own way; arguing from realism doesn't hit home for me in BT as it should, when it comes to art. The points are valid, but equally so my criticism, because it comes down to matters of taste. Making me happy with new art is going to mean having something new that looks like a better version of the older art. Not all-new art. Sorry. But again; I've done well here by Shim's art. Couple I love, couple I hate, one that just bugs me and the rest I'm happy with. And all of it within the broad boarders of BT art and none of it source-suspect in any way. It's ours and it's obviously ours.

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SteelRaven

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #64 on: 22 December 2017, 00:35:30 »
It's a qestion of taste.

I still have a Tactic's Macross Tomahawk as my Warhammer proxy (because Shoji Kawamori's designs are awesome) but I love the new stuff. I was never a big fan of the original Wolverine's looks but I love the new one. We already have multiple versions of the Catapult and Awesome, looking forward to including these to my future games.   
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ColBosch

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #65 on: 22 December 2017, 05:10:37 »
After thirty years, I really don't care what other people like anymore. I'm tired as hell of people trying to justify their rose-tinted glasses. If you'd rather BattleTech still looks awful, even at the cost of modern sales, then I don't even know what to say anymore.
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Mech42ace

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #66 on: 22 December 2017, 12:01:46 »
Agreed, in order to stay relavent, BT needs art that represents a modern era, especially if we're talking the most popular era. Besides, they have confirmed that this new art will not replace the old. These designs are just representations created by a different artist with their style.
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ColBosch

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #67 on: 22 December 2017, 13:01:07 »
That did come out harsher than I intended, and I apologize. It's been a rough week. Hell, it's been a rough year, and I'm glad to see it go.

See, I have to come clean: despite being a fan of BattleTech for thirty years, I never liked the early art. Some individual pieces are fantastic, like the classic Warhammer cover, but for most it's clear that FASA just didn't have the money to get solid artists. When I compare the early BT stuff to other games out in the late 80s and early 90s it always comes up lacking. Dungeons and Dragons had gorgeous painted covers and lovingly inked interiors. Warhammer 40,000 had its mix of flash and grit, steely-jawed Imperial Guardsmen and hulking Chaos Marines. Even Traveller had left its early rough sketches behind, with T4's jaw-dropping airbrushed starships and lush alien worlds.

FASA did get better in its last few years, and as BattleTech's stewardship passed to FanPro and then Catalyst, the overall quality of the art has greatly risen. The current stable of artists is absolutely fantastic. However, whenever they had to depict an older machine, they were hamstrung in having to adhere closely to a frankly obsolete design aesthetic...or, more accurately, a lack thereof. Now there is a consistent motif among the redesigns, and it really ties the line better together. I compare the new Locust and Flea and they really feel like they're part of the same universe. I can see them as competitors for their battlefield role. The same goes for the new looks of the 55-ton trio, and so on.
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Dakkon

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #68 on: 22 December 2017, 15:14:28 »
Frankly; I think the 3085 Scorpion---which I like---is possibly the most realistic mech I've ever seen in BT.

Now that you mention it, it kind of does have a grounded and realistic design. Low profile, sloped hull, smoke (or chaff?) launchers, etc.

I initially glossed over the Scorpion because of it's aesthetic, but I kind of like it a little more now because it is a more realistic approach to mech design. The arrangement the legs have still bothers me though, it's kind of hard to see how it moves so quickly for its tonnage.

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #69 on: 24 December 2017, 00:34:51 »
The Scorpion does look like the love child of the STRV 103 and the John Deer Timberjack.
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Wrangler

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #70 on: 24 December 2017, 00:42:35 »
I'd like see 3085 reseen version of the scorpion made into mini.
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Domi1981

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #71 on: 29 December 2017, 08:51:56 »
I´m done with Plog´s artworks. The amount unnecessary feeling lines and protruding extensions in too much. It always makes me question wether he wants to draw for Warhammer 40k or Power Rangers and the endresult looks like some bad 80´s action figures. Shimmering Swords is galaxies beyond that. He has adapted a functional yet modern looking artstile that we usually see in series like the Expanse (https://shimmering-sword.deviantart.com/gallery/). Everything has its purpose and seems to work.
He does this:

The armor panels look like they can be mended in case they are damaged. They encase and protect. Servos and shafts are well encased. And I immediately recognized what mech it is. The overall artwork works in harmony with his other designs. Its a credible way to depict tanks on legs. I recognize the engineering composition of all joints allthough he adopted the blocking ankle joints of Loose.
Plog goes:

This looks like abstract art. Why are vital activators and shafts unprotected? Why the awkward shoulders and those 60´s "I Am A RoBOT..BRrRzZz" arms and legs? The torso lokks like a kitchen aid glued to a whatever the hell this is.

marauder648

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #72 on: 29 December 2017, 09:46:28 »
Actually with that old Daimyo there, Plog basically updated the original design drawn by someone else.



And lets be honest, that art there isn't very good. And thats the polite version.

Is the original art and for the revised TRO they used him to draw the art, but they had to be based on the original designs (and models) so could not re-interpret them.

As an example. Original Komodo



one for the revised TRO
« Last Edit: 29 December 2017, 10:06:01 by marauder648 »
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Domi1981

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #73 on: 29 December 2017, 10:47:13 »
FAir point. I just went trough his gallery and picked one randomly. My criticism goes for all his designs but a few exceptions. there is just too much going on. Furthermore it doesn´t help the sculptors. Granted they are all very capable but the size of the usual many limits any detailing. Look for example at the galleries of Chris Daranouvong and Justin Nelson. They are very good as well. I wonder in what way these artists communicate with each other to allign any artwork patterns or if each of them sticks to himself. In the past there was just too much arbitrariness in the overall lineup of designs. Its okay that Starleague has another design language than other eras but the designs are all over the place. I´m just strictly speaking for myself but I wish we could tell mechs from various houses/Clans apart. Nothing silly, but something that helped you to tell a Mercedes apart from a Mitsubishi. They tried this with the WoB mechs. But these were just looking like something out of a happy meal. (And yes I know its not from Plog, but I talk about WoB designs now)


Makes me think of

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #74 on: 29 December 2017, 12:48:02 »
At least they left out wrecking balls that was in the film off the toy...
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JPArbiter

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #75 on: 03 January 2018, 00:54:03 »
Change of subject, is there a word on the remaining “safe” nuseens, namely the ostsol, ostroc, scorpion, and goliath.
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marauder648

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #76 on: 03 January 2018, 04:41:48 »
I'm gonna hazard a guess and say 'wait and see', i'd not be surprised if they were done but we're waiting the outcome of the legal shenanigans.
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JPArbiter

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #77 on: 03 January 2018, 18:04:25 »
Which is odd, cause those designs are safe from any and all legal pressures, should be able to join the box sets
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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #78 on: 03 January 2018, 20:18:10 »
IIRC, the artist said they hadn't done designs for the Ostroc, Ostsol, Goliath or Scorpion
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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #79 on: 03 January 2018, 22:01:48 »
@Domi1981 - Plog did a good job of modernising the, shall we say, dated original art while still keeping quite closely to the old designs. He made it seem like the designs stayed the same, as if his art was just an in-universe clearer picture of the old... and that's something to applaud.

Whereas the Reseen Classics are much more extensive redesigns for reasons we all know about. I think its safe to say Shimmering-Sword was given wider latitude for redesign, and he did a good job of it.

Besides, the trend at Plog's time was for lots of greebley bits and generally maintaining the stylised-beast look of 80s Battletech, whereas SS looks like he's going for a modern tank-like look. Now I love SS's work (refer avatar <---), but the thing about modern tanks is... they all look roughly the same. Take a look at the Leclerc, Ariete, Leopard 2, Challenger 2, Abrams... mix 'em all up and I doubt any casual viewer can tell they're different tanks even.

And I think that's a problem SS is heading towards. I can't quite tell, immediately, the difference between his Griffin, Wolverine, Wasp and Stinger. Or his Wasp, Valkyrie and Phoenix Hawk - they've all got Ant-Man helmets on. The Shadow Hawk too would join the crowd if not for that distinctive shoulder gun.

My 0.02.

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #80 on: 03 January 2018, 22:46:49 »
Well let me take it the other direction...

I recently showed all 15 Classics to some friends of mine to had touched upon BT back in the day. They knew what the Unseens were and hadn't touched BT since before the Clans. They picked up on the the differences on most of them right away.

Granted there are similar elements between the Stinger/Wasp/Valkyrie/Phoenix Hawk, the Rifleman/Warhammer, and the Griffin/Shadow Hawk/Wolverine, but there are enough differences between them as well.

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #81 on: 04 January 2018, 00:00:14 »
Granted there are similar elements between the Stinger/Wasp/Valkyrie/Phoenix Hawk, the Rifleman/Warhammer, and the Griffin/Shadow Hawk/Wolverine, but there are enough differences between them as well.
Not saying he hasn't done a good job. The core designs of the Thunderbolt, Archer, Rifleman and Warhammer are very obviously distinct from the rest, I can't imagine anyone having trouble with them. For the rest, their standard variants have a few key recognition points longtime Battletech players ought to know:

The 55-ton trio are differentiated mainly by which side the Griffin and Wolverine's missile launcher is on, and the Shad's shoulder gun.

The P-hawk has unique shoulder jets. The Valk has a biggish inset chest missile rack.

The Stinger and Wasp however differ mainly with one having the Ant-Man head an the other having what I call the Box-head.

But these points aside... don't you think they look really alike in SS's treatment? Just various combinations of Box-head/Ant-man head, guns and missiles on generic blocky humanoid forms?

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #82 on: 04 January 2018, 05:28:57 »
But these points aside... don't you think they look really alike in SS's treatment? Just various combinations of Box-head/Ant-man head, guns and missiles on generic blocky humanoid forms?
Not really. What Shim really did was update the Unseen/Reseens to a more 'modern' ascetic.
And besides, couldn't you say the same thing about Loose's original art as well? Since for the Stinger/Valkyrie/Wasp, they are, in essence, derived from the same basic body frame. Yet, Loose was able to make each unique, but similar as well.

Juodas Varnas

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #83 on: 04 January 2018, 10:36:54 »
But these points aside... don't you think they look really alike in SS's treatment? Just various combinations of Box-head/Ant-man head, guns and missiles on generic blocky humanoid forms?
Really?
If anything, i find Shimmy's redesigns to be much more distinct from one-another than the Unseens were. Sure, some are similar like Stinger and Wasp, but they're even canonically supposed to be so similar that one of the manufacturers tried to sue the other for ripping them off (but even THEN the Stinger has a slightly more blocky appearance, while the Wasp is more streamlined looking).

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #84 on: 04 January 2018, 11:14:45 »
That is true.

But personally to me they all blur into one another after a while, I have to squint to make out the differences. I think, for example, David White could have given each Mech a little more distinction.

YMMV very much, of course.

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #85 on: 04 January 2018, 16:56:12 »
I think with artwork it is mostly like it is with fashion. Its also always a representation of the zeitgeist. With the Star League mechs every mech had some grills and lines that transported a certain 50´s style.



The original unseen transported the 80´s of Japan especially it reminded me of the Hondas and Nissans where you would find large & smooth surfaces disrupted only by a few lines, right angles in contrast to very shallow angles:


Imho SS really captured this essential characteristics of the original unseens when he recreated them. He understood the key elements of the Japanese source and translated them into his new artwork. The tankish look is a direct consequence of this. Instead of just looking at the the weapon loadout and preserving mere external features he understood the design language and prooved that he is able to read, adapt and refine the design language of a foreign culture and zeitgeist. That´s what makes him outstanding. To redesign a Scorpion for example many just draw a four legged mech with the key elements like the long barreled PPC and the six tube SRM and maybe the offset cockpit. But a few professional designers know that you have to understand the code of a language to speak it. Its enough for many if a foreigner uses some nouns and maybe some correct verbs to communicate, but what really clicks is correct use of grammar and phonetics as well. Its the same in design. If you have a shallow knowledge of culture (Values, norms, political & religious beliefsystems etc.) you are missing the vocabulary & code to recreate the zeitgeist of an era in your design. Artists are our most precious historians.
Take Karl Lagerfeld for example. He is so good in doing what he does because he was born and socialized into the society strata whose fashion he later designed for. Design is society in form.
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« Last Edit: 04 January 2018, 17:02:09 by Domi1981 »

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #86 on: 04 January 2018, 19:56:50 »
That was quite the excellent post, Domi!

Kidd

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #87 on: 05 January 2018, 22:42:38 »
I think with artwork it is mostly like it is with fashion. Its also always a representation of the zeitgeist. With the Star League mechs every mech had some grills and lines that transported a certain 50´s style.

The original unseen transported the 80´s of Japan especially it reminded me of the Hondas and Nissans where you would find large & smooth surfaces disrupted only by a few lines, right angles in contrast to very shallow angles:
yeah, I don't think anyone's going to dispute that.

But Battletech and in particular the Classics has always been supposed to reflect a gritty "real military hardware" look. And I think that SS's art is going for the 80s MBT tank look rather than late-00s Ipod-smooth... and that's very fitting.

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #88 on: 06 January 2018, 14:19:45 »
That was quite the excellent post, Domi!

Hear! Hear!!

Domi1981

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #89 on: 07 January 2018, 09:36:43 »
That was quite the excellent post, Domi!

Oh, thank you. Finally my studies paid off ;D
Could write a book about this topic. But who would read that anyway.
Hear! Hear!!

If that wasn´t sarcasm I´m very glad to once get approved by one of my favorite artists [blank] ^-^
Anyway, I wonder what SS could do with difficult mechs like the Crab or the Cyclops who looked imho pretty ....lame? Stupid? What would he do to correct these? So far he had a go on mechs who looked pretty cool originally. But imho he, among some others would be the one to do the job.
« Last Edit: 07 January 2018, 09:38:45 by Domi1981 »

 

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