Author Topic: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament  (Read 11507 times)

Hellraiser

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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #60 on: 15 June 2018, 10:38:42 »
This is why people have army comp rules. If "bring whatever you want" is the order of the day, you'd just see a bunch of Clan pulse jumpers and customs. Gotta use common sense. :)

Not sure if your referring to the force I mentioned above, but you'll find the basic Partisan, Demilisher, & LRM Carrier to be IS General, IIRC, and over all our force was FedCom Mercs in 95% of its construction.

The customization was because it was a long running campaign not a pick up game & they were only C-Grade refits completed in a Dropship bay.

They were also a direct response to seeing a single Liao Catapult use Arrows to wipe out friendlies so we decided to be prepared to deal with that thing.

It was all balanced by #s & BV.

IF there was a better selection of canon artillery in the game we probably would have saved ourselves the time of refit & just purchased new, but unless your 3060's Liao-DC, or SLDF regulars, the selection is very very limited & doesn't often do what we wanted which was 2 guns on a single platform.
« Last Edit: 15 June 2018, 10:43:35 by Hellraiser »
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Colt Ward

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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #61 on: 15 June 2018, 11:14:10 »
Absolutely . . . its why I wish we had more vehicle variants . . . IMO there should be a turretless Vedette that has Thumper or Sniper options.  Anything considered a budget vehicle (Vedette, Po, 60t weapons carrier, maybe Zhukov & Demos) should have a couple of artillery variants . . . we get a rumored SRM conversion for the Ryoken but it never got a sheet.

Heck, the only canon RS towed/infantry artillery is the 71st whatever DC unit . . . and its a Thumper rather than the Sniper I would like to see.
Colt Ward
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Hellraiser

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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #62 on: 15 June 2018, 12:03:15 »
Absolutely . . . its why I wish we had more vehicle variants . . . IMO there should be a turretless Vedette that has Thumper or Sniper options.  Anything considered a budget vehicle (Vedette, Po, 60t weapons carrier, maybe Zhukov & Demos) should have a couple of artillery variants . . . we get a rumored SRM conversion for the Ryoken but it never got a sheet.

Heck, the only canon RS towed/infantry artillery is the 71st whatever DC unit . . . and its a Thumper rather than the Sniper I would like to see.

Grr, agreed.  I really want 28 men & a Sniper since its one of the rarer artillery on vehicles, seems like it would be common w/ infantry since the Longtom is actually too big for most platoons.

Not sure a Vedette would fit a Thumper/Sniper w/o changing the engine.
But a Hetzer-Thumper would seem possible.
And can you imagine the mobility of a Saladin-Thumper/Arrow.

The Missile Carriers to me is the most obvious one as they exist in fluff so far but I'd like to see actual RS versions get made.
Single Long Tom or Twin Arrow/Thumper are all a perfect 30 tons for any variant, while the LRM Carrier specifically into the Sniper fits nicely by dropping 2 of the LRM20's & keeping 1 for closer support.

Finally it boggles me that the SLDF arti tanks never got some L1 downgrades like the Mechs did.
Most of them just needed to swap out CASE & Ferro for basic Armor.
Heck even the fully teched out Padilla w/ XL + Arrow + MPLs? could have been downgraded to SFE + Thumper + MLs pretty easily.

I would have really liked to see those converted over for use in the SW era.
Chaparral-Thumper just seems obvious to me.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

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Colt Ward

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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #63 on: 15 June 2018, 13:10:07 »
Unfortunately I do not have access to HMV right now since I am at work, but I THINK you can get a Vedette (Thumper) easily when you toss the turret.  I think I had to drop the engine to 4/6 or go FCE for a Sniper- and lowering the engine size on a vehicle is easier than increasing the size, so not a real fluff problem IMO.
Colt Ward
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Hellraiser

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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #64 on: 15 June 2018, 23:26:46 »
Unfortunately I do not have access to HMV right now since I am at work, but I THINK you can get a Vedette (Thumper) easily when you toss the turret.  I think I had to drop the engine to 4/6 or go FCE for a Sniper- and lowering the engine size on a vehicle is easier than increasing the size, so not a real fluff problem IMO.

I'm not sure how you would.

8 tons of AC5,  1 ammo,  MG & 1/2 ton gives you 10 tons.   11 w/ the turret.   That isn't going to get you a 15+ammo thumper, but maybe you did the snub-arti cannon which i think is only 10 tons.  That or you dropped the engine just to get the Thumper.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #65 on: 15 June 2018, 23:55:50 »
How much armor is on the turret?

Also, an artillery variant could safely cut a couple tons of armor since it shouldn't find itself under direct fire as often.
« Last Edit: 15 June 2018, 23:57:47 by MoneyLovinOgre4Hire »
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Colt Ward

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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #66 on: 16 June 2018, 09:42:46 »
Now that I have my HMV . . . to keep the turret I had to drop the speed.  Dropping the turret I get 11.5t . . . make the armor FF and drop it to 1.5t and you can get just the Thumper and a ton of ammo- no MG and the armor is like 5 a facing.  Better solution would be to change the engine over to FCE and drop the turret for a simple SP gun that could be decently protected.

But yeah . . . Saladin & Hetzer both scream for artillery versions.
Colt Ward
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

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Sharkapult

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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #67 on: 16 June 2018, 12:23:36 »
The Hetzer Arty is the first custom I ever seem to do in ATB campaigns. Saladin Arty is a close second. One of the 50 ton hovercraft also gets an Arrow.

Col Toda

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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #68 on: 19 June 2018, 10:36:16 »
On board Homing Arrow IV effective use revoves around a couple of factors . First quality of gunners . If you have too many regular or green gunners TAG becomes near useless . On the other hand any Elite gunners are wasteful on BV and the opposition will crush you in a BV balaced game . Second density of TAG at Veteran skill level 1 TAG system hits for every 3 attemptted so I field 16 mechs 9 have TAG and 8 combat vehicles 7 have TAG . You have to move in a loose formation to insure the TAGed unit is the proper range from the Target . You have to field cheap fast combat vehicles to bring down the BV and C bill cost as any TAG laser increases the BV of guided munitions .  3rd and last do not just have homing Arrow IV rounds with TAG on board Semi Guided LRMs and to a far lesser extent if any mech morter rounds maximizes efficacy say a fresh mech gets hit with 2 Homing Arrow IV rounds doing 2 , 20 point holes in the armor followed up by LRM or mech morter hits trying to exploit those holes .

Cannonshop

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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #69 on: 20 June 2018, 02:14:13 »
On board Homing Arrow IV effective use revoves around a couple of factors . First quality of gunners . If you have too many regular or green gunners TAG becomes near useless . On the other hand any Elite gunners are wasteful on BV and the opposition will crush you in a BV balaced game . Second density of TAG at Veteran skill level 1 TAG system hits for every 3 attemptted so I field 16 mechs 9 have TAG and 8 combat vehicles 7 have TAG . You have to move in a loose formation to insure the TAGed unit is the proper range from the Target . You have to field cheap fast combat vehicles to bring down the BV and C bill cost as any TAG laser increases the BV of guided munitions .  3rd and last do not just have homing Arrow IV rounds with TAG on board Semi Guided LRMs and to a far lesser extent if any mech morter rounds maximizes efficacy say a fresh mech gets hit with 2 Homing Arrow IV rounds doing 2 , 20 point holes in the armor followed up by LRM or mech morter hits trying to exploit those holes .

I found that running a company (12) arrow-iv tanks with tags to be quite adequate against an equivalently valued force of 'mechs by using "group fire" and open formations (roughly 2-4 hexes between tank pairs).  While there's a strong argument for mixing in VTOL or Hovers with TAG instead of integrating it into the same chassis as the tanks, there's some argument for  forcing a situation where the tag is applied from the closest tanks, while the Arrows are coming in from multiple sources in the formation further away.

not to mention the fun in double-blind play, the potential is good for a number of scenarios, since you can keep most of the force within 17 hexes of on another, and still have adequate room for indirect fire, esp. in built up terrain like urban, since clear line of sight isn't necessary for the tactic, and you're not tied to a single spotter.

th best use is, oddly enough, not defensive, but instead, offensive, thus needing a decent MP rate on your carriers. (4/6 minimum in this case).  Sweeping into an urban map with such a force, you can readily cause all sorts of vitriol from an icebox/energy twink, because he can only engage what his unit can see, while you can engage him from  units in the back line, or out of LOS with lethal results even if he's running creme-de-la-creme Clan Elites in Icebox Masakaris.  (multiple 20 point  hits, or 25 point hits, in a single round of fire and dropping that 'mech is going to cost him more BV than you'll lose when he takes the one right in front of him out.)

The big issue is Light 'mechs and forces-the kind that can generate significant Movement mods and foul up your TAG shot.


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StoneRhino

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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #70 on: 29 June 2018, 02:33:43 »
I’m a big proponent of artillery cannons against super mobile light mechs.

Yes, your +4 TMM is very impressive. 7s to hit

wheres that "haha" react button at? ;D

StoneRhino

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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #71 on: 29 June 2018, 02:44:39 »
i've never played a game (or even series of games) that require a unit to fire sixty rounds so this contingency does not enter my calculus... granted, few things enter my calculus besides having enough beef jerky and assorted cold beverages to last the length of the game so I'm probably not the bellwether to follow.

This is the kind of person I would like to play against or alongside.  ;D

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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #72 on: 29 June 2018, 13:39:20 »
Seconded. Deep stocks of ammo are insignificant compared to the power of deep stocks of beer.
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Lagrange

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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #73 on: 10 July 2018, 14:55:27 »
There is a trick for avoiding a TAG miss.  The relevant rules is in Tactical operations, Arrow IV Homing Missiles, page 354:
... a TAG equipped unit may not designate multiple targets in the same turn.
This rule forbids multiple target designation (whether by one or several TAGs) but using multiple TAGs on the same target remains legal.  So, with a custom design you can mount and use 3 TAGs to give yourself 3 independent chances of connecting with TAG. 

Boomer8

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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #74 on: 10 July 2018, 16:04:00 »
There is a trick for avoiding a TAG miss.  The relevant rules is in Tactical operations, Arrow IV Homing Missiles, page 354:
... a TAG equipped unit may not designate multiple targets in the same turn.
This rule forbids multiple target designation (whether by one or several TAGs) but using multiple TAGs on the same target remains legal.  So, with a custom design you can mount and use 3 TAGs to give yourself 3 independent chances of connecting with TAG.

Provided you want to give up 3 tons/crit spaces to mount them....
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Colt Ward

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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #75 on: 10 July 2018, 16:50:39 »
There is a trick for avoiding a TAG miss.  The relevant rules is in Tactical operations, Arrow IV Homing Missiles, page 354:
... a TAG equipped unit may not designate multiple targets in the same turn.
This rule forbids multiple target designation (whether by one or several TAGs) but using multiple TAGs on the same target remains legal.  So, with a custom design you can mount and use 3 TAGs to give yourself 3 independent chances of connecting with TAG.

Huh?  What that means is you cannot use your single TAG to lase 3 different units, or your interpretation . . .

You can most certainly have three different units, all with a single TAG lase a single target.
Colt Ward
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Lagrange

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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #76 on: 11 July 2018, 00:02:10 »
Provided you want to give up 3 tons/crit spaces to mount them....
Right.
Huh?  What that means is you cannot use your single TAG to lase 3 different units,
Agreed.
or your interpretation . . .
I disagree---that interpretation is inconsistent with the way that the secondary target modifier is applied---you are supposed to only apply it when actually targeting a second unit, not when firing a second weapon at a single target.  A single target remains a single target no matter how many times it is targeted.
You can most certainly have three different units, all with a single TAG lase a single target.
Sure.

Hellraiser

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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #77 on: 11 July 2018, 00:08:35 »
Is there any single cannon unit out there that can fire 2+ TAGs in a turn that is not a Double C3 Master Company CO unit?

I don't recall of anyone mounting multiple TAGs or a combo of TAG + C3M on a unit, but I'm curious if anyone else knows of one.

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #78 on: 11 July 2018, 00:20:39 »
Any aerospace unit with two or more bomb slots. This works out to roughly every single non-support aero smaller than a shuttle, some of the support ones as well, and the one or two bigger units with the internal bomb bay quirk.
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Colt Ward

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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #79 on: 11 July 2018, 09:55:14 »
I guess theoretically one of the OmniMechs could . . . honestly surprised we did not see something like the Owens doing that back in BMR since it was Fire weapons OR TAG, but not both.
Colt Ward
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marcussmythe

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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #80 on: 11 July 2018, 10:44:04 »
The ability to mount multiple tag units and muti-fire at a single opponent offsets a lot of the concern about ending a turn with no valid targets for incoming fire.

And its arguably ‘cleaner’ than suggesting any unit should, instead, make sure that they are omnis with tag battle armor riding, IFVs with tag infanty onboard, and oh by the way bringing a clump of tag-enabled Savannah Masters.

Colt Ward

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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #81 on: 11 July 2018, 11:53:18 »
Dunno, if I am taking TAG I still tend to have specialized units for it . . . one of my favorites is the Sprint Interceptor- fast TAG w/ECM.  But I also like the Achelius, Purifier and Kage for TAG.  Especially Purifier for defensive engagements.
Colt Ward
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

General308

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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #82 on: 25 August 2018, 18:43:11 »
The Snubs just dont.. do much for me.  I really, really like the range, espc as the inner sphere defending against a clan invasion.  "Hmm.  Your weapon goes 23.  Mine only goes 4.  Of course, those 4 are Map Sheets...".

Also, by varying the ammo load, an artillery piece, espec. an Arrow IV artillery piece, can be an air defense unit, an anti-armor direct-fire unit, or an artillery support unit.  My inner Logistics officer gets warm fuzzies from buying less equipment.

I don't know the Snubs just sound fun to use in a city.

Colt Ward

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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #83 on: 28 August 2018, 10:14:37 »
I don't know the Snubs just sound fun to use in a city.

To level it?
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."