Author Topic: MotW repost: Balius  (Read 26338 times)

jymset

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MotW repost: Balius
« on: 08 May 2011, 14:28:36 »
Originally posted on July 3rd, 2009. One or two punctuation changes, and the addition of Configuration U. A link to my Gargoyle article will go up once I have reposted that one.


This is jymset of the Falcon Watch. Today we will have a look at the Hell's Horses' newest entry into the most crowded Omni weight class – the Balius of TRO: 3075.

From the moment one opens that manual to pages 142-143, attention is drawn to a few exceptional design choices. It is the first Omni-Quad-'Mech and it is the first totem-OmniMech. While the former choice is one long overdue in view of the successes that have been achieved by quads in the last two decades, the latter choice opens a totally new perspective on the purpose of the totem-‘Mech.

In the past, the handful of totem-'Mechs had a function that nestled between garrison and ceremonial duty. The Horses' own aborted first attempt at a totem-'Mech, the quad Thunder Stallion fulfils the fire support role, one where even less glory is found. Could it be that this may have been the true motive to abort the first attempt? At any rate, the totem-'Mech as a "class" was designed to strengthen the esprit de corps of its parent Clan.

Everything about the Balius, its OmniMech status, its high manufacturing standards and its deployment suggest an expansion of this doctrine. Of course it still is a focal point of pride for its own Clan; however, this command OmniMech was also very much designed as an avatar that will be instantly visible and recognisable during the current aggressive expansionist warfare against other Clans which the Hell’s Horses are pursuing.

And on face surface, the totem aspect of the design was achieved very successfully. The four hoofed legs instantly enforce equine character and the sensor array even carries a horse mask. It is possible that this is a reason why in naïve aesthetic judgement, most observers will voice a dislike of the Balius: the other totem-'Mechs achieve their features by idiosyncratic arrangement of vents, canopy, etc; the Balius is the only one to feature a true mask, more akin to a ProtoMech. At the same time, the Balius is not devoid of very prominent air intakes on the "flanks", turret-like gun mounts and further sensors on its back. There is a very decided discrepancy of design aesthetics between the two groups of components.

On top of all that, two further flaws seem inexcusable to this spectator: the rear gun’s mounting is indeed on an unfortunate spot of this design (given its anatomical faithfulness to a horse) – this has been commented on in abundance since the release of the TRO. The other flaw is only obvious on further inspection: a head-mounted fixed flamer is a very stylish addition to a life-like design; it would even justify the exposed equine head (the canopy itself is at the front of the ‘Mech, not at the top of its “head”). However, the flamer is tucked under the body at the front of the quad, both destroying the arguably elegant lines of the design, and decidedly labelling the head as nothing but questionable ornament.

I have tried to put aesthetics into word, something that is both subjective and futile. I felt it necessary as two simple truths cannot be debated: the Balius is a striking ‘Mech; the Balius has been met with great antagonism because of its looks.


All of the above may prove a discussion point, but it does not explain the actual design choices made by the Technician Caste, under tutelage of saKhan Tanya DeLaurel, no less! In fact, as one starts examining the stats of the design, a sinking feeling sets in: in view of an entry into a weight class with abundant alternatives (one of which, the Hellbringer [Loki] was even designed by the Hell’s Horses!), a lot of questionable design choices were made.

An important factor is its speed. The Linebacker has proven that a 6/9 65-tonner, packing an insane 390 XL engine is not a way to success. The pod space is bound to be so limited that the only difference in comparison to a design of half its weight but equal speed and almost equal weapon capacities are a few tons of armour.

On the other hand, the speed suits a quad well – in terms of ground speed, this truly is the fastest heavy Clan OmniMech that exists.

At least the Balius wisely plays its strengths and mounts more armour than any of its 65-ton contemporaries. Protection could have been mini-maxed to slightly greater efficiency (increasing the side torsos by 1 point of armour would allow for the hypothetical survival of 3 Gauss or PPC hits), but the protection is rock-solid, on par with designs 10 tons heavier.

As speed and armour protection are great, it comes as no surprise that the Balius suffers horribly in the weaponry department. 20 tons pod space with 10 fixed double heat sinks on a well-protected 6/9 chassis instantly let the Stormcrow seem superior. Then again, in my article]Gargoyle [Man o' War] article I argued for a mediocre chassis being saved by great configurations. Alas, I do not feel that the Balius supplies us with a single one of those.


Primary Configuration – 2 ERLL, 2 MPL, 2 rear mounted MPL, 4 DHS. The primary configuration of the Balius is both the most balanced and possibly the most undergunned configuration. This base model illustrates the severe problems the Balius faces. In order to maximise its very limited pod capacity, light energy weapons are chosen. These completely overtax the design’s limited heat dissipation capacity, necessitating the addition of extra sinks, thereby cancelling its weight savings. All in all, this thing mounts 16 tons of real weapons, but 25% of that weight faces the rear, leaving 12 tons of weapons pointing to the front. Realistically, any but the very lightest of Clan OmniMechs can equal that firepower.

Configuration A – HAG20 (18), ERLL, ERML, 2 rear mounted ERML. I feel that the HAG is anything but an ideal weapon for this particular design. It does result in decent all-up firepower, but lacks a concentrated punch. One positive aspect of the ‘Mech is that it only devotes 2 tons to rear firing weaponry – still 10%. Can you imagine a Dire Wolf with 5 tons of rear-mounted equipment?

Configuration B – 2 ERLL, 8 HSL, rear mounted LPL, 2 DHS. But speaking of aforementioned example, the Balius B goes one better by mounting a 6-ton gun in its rear. Yes, the biggest gun on this ‘Mech is sticking out of the horsie's ***. The front-mounted weaponry equals the Prime’s 12 tons, but is actually arranged in classic Succession-War-Era bracket firing mode. How crazy is this? Because, you know, 12 tons are definitely too much to be handled by a heavy ‘Mech… Despite an obvious method to the madness, 2 ER large lasers are not worthy of a heavy ‘Mech and the heavy small laser yet remains the worst weapon in the Clan arsenal. Without the ingestion of half a dozen Fusiliers, I cannot evaluate which is more humorous: the fact that this is clearly a joke of a configuration or the fact that it nevertheless equals the ranged firepower of the Prime.

<After being reprimanded by his superior, jymset of the Falcon Watch returns to respectful language as appropriate to a warrior of the most honourable Clan.>

Configuration C – 2 ATM9 (28), 2 ERML, 2 rear mounted MPL. This configuration can be summed up very quickly: A) in the ATMs lies its strength. They are very good weaponry and give the design a punch more respectable than found on the other configurations. B) nevertheless, this is a weaponry appropriate for a light-medium ‘Mech.

Configuration D – ERPPC, 4 ERML, 2 rear mounted MPL, 6 jump jets. This one is the most terrible Balius; having said that, it is also the best Balius.
  • It is a ‘Mech that completely disregards heat management, uses weapon brackets without regard to range- or heat-brackets, and manages to mount a truly laughable 10 tons of front-mounted weapons.
  • It also jumps, making it a truly monstrous heavy skirmisher, it is the only configuration to mount a decapitation weapon, it uses very solid back-up weapons.
More than any other configuration this one shows that while impressive, the idea of a fighting super-scout is a deeply flawed one. In terms of weaponry, the very same could easily be replicated on a design 10-20 tons lighter, leaving nothing but a dubious increase in survivability.

2011: Configuration U - ERLL, 4 SRT6 (60), ECM, 5 UMU. With this configuration, covered in the tech supplement for the 3085 TRO [aka RS: 3085 ONN], the Balius joins the ranks of the few OmniMechs which feature unusual environment variants. In this case, the Balius is refitted for underwater combat. To be kind, the Balius U does its job very well - it is more nimble than the vast majority of all existing 'Mechs, it features weaponry that is realistically able to one-strike kill any non-HarJel equipped units and the inclusion of ECM firmly roots it in a Jihad environment. It comes as no surprise that its limited pod space precludes the use of HarJel itself, as well as limiting the above-water weaponry to a token ERLL. This insert thus fits snugly, because...


Make no mistake about it – this OmniMech's weaponry is anemic. Strangely enough, the two other worst offenders of the heavy OmniMechs are also found in that weight class. The Linebacker equals the Balius’ speed, but with its fixed heat sinks it does have more flexibility. It also has 4-5 very usable configurations. [This is where jymset starts thinking about following up his smart-armour-spiel with a smart-usage-of-podspace article… 2011 addition: thus far, it hasn't happened... :-[ ] The Crossbow is a budget OmniMech if there ever was one and very cleverly relies on missiles which are undoubtedly the best weapons to use for a ‘Mech with both limited podspace and heat dissipation. Yes, three of the Linebacker’s good variants are missile-based, also.

The Balius' configurations range from the terrible to the underwhelming; it only fields one missile-based configuration and it is a testament to the ATM's intrinsic value that I rate it the highest of the lot. But again: anything from a Kit Fox [Uller] upwards could achieve the same offensive results. This is a terrible waste.

On top of that truism, I have to also comment a discrepancy of design philosophies Design philosophies clash – why so fast and then a protected rear? The former maximises a potential strength of the quad chassis. The latter minimises a definite weakness of it. But on a design that is so very much in dire need of extra weight, the combination of both seems very foolhardy.


The Balius is currently fielded as a dedicated command 'Mech. It originally met with scepticism that was swayed only by saKhan DeLaurel demonstrating its effectiveness against the Wolves and Ice Hellions. It is not in my place to comment about the Hellions’, and in lesser parts Wolves’ penchant for various lighter designs; it is also not in my place to speculate about a possible return of DeLaurel to her original ‘Mech. One warning is enough for this warrior.

The Balius is still a rare sight. I feel that this OmniMech is less than the sum of its part (as opposed to, say, the Gargoyle). I know that at least one local Nova Cat warrior feels differently. Let this be the place for contrary opinions!
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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #1 on: 08 May 2011, 16:46:41 »
I like the 'Mech despite its weakness.  For a quad, it having rear mount weapon helps it from getting in trouble.  Makes me wonder what Inner Sphere Quad OmniMech what would be like.
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Moonsword

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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #2 on: 08 May 2011, 19:53:03 »
The Balius is reserved for command 'Mechs for two reasons.  First, it's very rare and was, for a while, hand built.  Second, in the Clans, Asskicking Equals Authority, so the commanders are theoretically the most likely place to find pilots who can overcome the weaknesses of the type.

The reason the design keeps going "this is weaponry for a light or medium 'Mech" is because it literally has the podspace of a light or medium 'Mech.  The Cougar has almost as much space and usually uses it more intelligently while the Stormcrow has almost as much armor, two more tons of podspace, a hell of a lot more room to go hog wild with freezers if it needs to, and still has better configurations.  Of the configurations here, the Prime and B are the winners of the lot.  The C would be a lot more useful with HMLs, which have enough reach to leave you with at least notional flexibility in employing them.

I like the 'Mech despite its weakness.  For a quad, it having rear mount weapon helps it from getting in trouble.  Makes me wonder what Inner Sphere Quad OmniMech what would be like.

It depends on what they're actually doing, but in general the loss of crits and tonnage (because you can't burn crits for tonnage as readily) from using Inner Sphere hardware is going to make being a quad a much larger headache overall.  An Inner Sphere Balius would be an incredibly bad idea.  To the extent the Balius gets away with anything, it gets away with it because it can rely on more compact, lighter Clantech to keep it from being delivered to a glue factory somewhere.  (Well, being delivered as quickly, at any rate.)  An OmniXanthos built like a Hauptmann, on the other hand, could work.

Daishi411

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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #3 on: 08 May 2011, 22:00:37 »
why yes, the balius is awesome  8)

thanks for putting this back up jymset  :)
"Warriors, not war machines, are the backbone of the Hell's Horses. While others worship the BattleMech as the ultimate weapon, the men and women of this Clan see even this awesome piece of technology as the tool it is. We have held to this philosophy since the days of our first Khan, who knew that the value of the common soldier far outstripped the brute force of the BattleMech. It is one reason our Clan possesses fewer mechs than most, and has led many to underestimate our fierceness and courage. Our survival against all challengers when others have fallen proves the folly of such arrogance, and testifies to the wisdom of our founders."
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Ian Sharpe

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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #4 on: 08 May 2011, 23:29:18 »
Possibly the mech I despise the most. Anyone that wants to use it, more power to you: you can use my share of them.  It has every strike against it.  Its ugly, its a quad, its mini isn't that great, it has no standout configs.  Worse, its redundant!  The Stormcrow fills the role, Jihad factory destruction and CHH move to the IS or not.  It makes the Linebacker look competent!  Its not even the first quad totem within the Horses! 

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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #5 on: 09 May 2011, 08:26:06 »
Its hard to argue with Ian's points.  The Balius is a very problematic mech.  Just being a quad is a strike against most modern mechs, since pod space is so important to mount modern light weight technologies.  But, being a quad tends also to mean more speed, to help compensate for the lack of the torso twist and arm swing, which eats into the already limited pod space even more. 

And of course, as the Linebacker has already shown us, even a mech that wants to be good struggles to do so as a 6/9 65 tonner.

That said, some of the time a really optomum mech is not what you're looking for. Sometimes you want a mech that just oozes style, that's so bad that no one that didn't have some other motive would use it, that is, if not powerful, fundementaly cool.  I think that the Balius is such a mech.  I don't mind the looks, and I love the idea of a quad omni as the Horse totem.

Its not totaly unusable, though it is quite a challange.  Many of the veriants rely on the ER LL, which is not such a bad move, since at maximum range the benifit of your speed (and side step) is maximized in hitting sweet spots, while your quad blind spot is minimized.  As a resualt, you can play like a very skitish Stormcrow Prime, which isn't as bad a thing as I think it probably seems. 
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blackjack

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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #6 on: 09 May 2011, 09:00:07 »
Great article! I think you just sold me on buying a Balius!! I have been toying with the idea for a while. My wife is a horse nut I have four in my front yard at the moment. I tend to like running the inherently flawed designs it makes games more interesting. Thank you!
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jymset

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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #7 on: 09 May 2011, 10:31:35 »
Great article! I think you just sold me on buying a Balius!! I have been toying with the idea for a while. My wife is a horse nut I have four in my front yard at the moment. I tend to like running the inherently flawed designs it makes games more interesting. Thank you!

:o that was... unexpected...

And this from the person going by the name of the singularly best 3025 'Mech!!
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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #8 on: 09 May 2011, 12:12:16 »
Its not totaly unusable, though it is quite a challange.  Many of the veriants rely on the ER LL, which is not such a bad move, since at maximum range the benifit of your speed (and side step) is maximized in hitting sweet spots, while your quad blind spot is minimized.  As a resualt, you can play like a very skitish Stormcrow Prime, which isn't as bad a thing as I think it probably seems.
All the variants have at least one long range weapon (2xERLL on the Prime, ERLL & HAG20 on the A, 2xERLL & LPL-rear on the B, 2xATM9 on the C, ERPPC on the D, and ERLL on the U) and the C is the only one I would be hesitant to use. The rest of above water variants give you a fair amount of long range firepower, which helps negate the lack of arm arcs and the lack of torso twisting. Plus twin ERLL, an ERLL & a HAG20, or an ERPPC are nothing to ignore.
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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #9 on: 12 May 2011, 06:27:36 »
Until the Balius, we didn't have a quad omni. In many ways, this mech illustrates why.
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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #10 on: 13 May 2011, 14:18:25 »
As one of those responsible, I thought it might be entertaining to react.
(Probably not entertaining to me... ;) )


Not every design officially made is intended to be good. Some outright suck. Sometimes, that's an accident. Errors happen. And occasionally, rules changes are to blame.
But sometimes, the inefficiencies are intentional.

That's *kind of* the story behind the Ballius.

The intent for the totem Horse 'Mech was to create a quad that resolved or dealt with some of the weaknesses of a quad. The prime weakness of a quad is lack of crit space. That hurts a bit more in high tech designs.
The secondary weakness is lack of torso-twist.
Everything else is just peachy.

Now, from a Clan perspective, dueling-competence is a key design philosophy. Slow, plodding quads don't really work in that regard. The only way to make a quad a good duelist is either turrets (unavailable when created) or speed.
So, speed it was.

Why 6/9 on a 65 tonner? For the same tonnage, I could've used a standard 325, and basically taken the Crossbow route.
Which is exactly why I didn't.
Why not a 5/8 XL? Because there were enough 5/8 XL engined 65 tonners.
And 4/6 was too slow.
Also for a third reason, more on that below.

A second problem was that the massive engine basically tagteamed with the limited crit space, making massive weapons impractical. 325XL would have mitigated the former, and I could've elected to ditch Ferro or even Endo and come out ahead, tonnage-wise. But as indicated, the proliferation of 5/8 65 tonners was a strong reason not to take that course.

A 390 engine does provide one nice feature: internal sinks. However, actually dropping a couple in (nevermind 5) would've cut the already minimal pod tonnage even more. And the desired weapon configs were such that the DHS space needs never really became a problem.

Why not more missiles?
It was pondered. One of the configs would've given it 4 LRM15s with ammo, and a pair of erMLs. But that was a bit too Thunder-Stallion-like for me. It's also possible to make a 6-SRM4 version with erLL and paired erMLs, but I just went ATM instead.

Why the massive rear weaponry?
Partially because a quad kind of needs that, and the Ballius is likely to face enemies that have enough speed to flank it. I don't think that's wasted tonnage from that perspective, and there's another reason, more on that soon. Beyond that, a player can easily make a config with a pure frontal focus.
Plus I wanted to be the first to rear-mount an LPL. ;)


Finally, here's something I think a lot of people don't consider when evaluating this design:

You need to go prone with it. A lot.

Consider that it only costs 1 MP, and provides another +1 at range *without* giving you any penalties. It's like free, portable cover. It also gives you another option when dealing with an opponent that likes to punch.
And getting back up happens automatically while all legs are on, just burn the 2 MP, and take the 1 heat.
Which means that the Prime, with 2 ERLL, at a run, and having gotten up that turn is... at 0 heat.
Which means that the B can elect to run away from you one turn, still generate a +3, and STILL shoot you with the damn LPL.

Here's the other aspect of that:
At 6/9, and needing to invest 1 MP to go prone, you should be able to move at 7 hexes every turn.
At 5/8, not so much.
At 6/9, and needing to invest 2MP to stand up, at which point you can pick any facing, you'll likely still get your 7 hexes, or take 5-6 and another prone.
At 5/8, not so much.

5/8 is a pretty decent speed for a biped. 6/9 is nice. But a quad suffers a bit at 5/8, I would say that the sweet spots bump by 1 base MP.
So, a biped's 7/11 is a quad's 8/12. Etc.

If you're not using prone properly with this guy, you're leaving money on the table.



Now, here's something else:
Dueling. As I indicated, this was a prime concern in its design. Clan commanders spend a good % of their time in it, and have to defend against challenges to their position.
Which means you pick the venue.
Which means that you give yourself ideal terrain against whoever issued the challenge, or at least have the speed to compensate for cruddy terrain if that choice is out of your hands.
Against slower enemies, you use your speed and ranged weapon. Your to-hit differential should be +2 or +3 most every turn. With elite pilots, that means you're playing in the Long range band, and the Ballius is able to push things on the down-slope of the bellcurve most every turn.
Against faster enemies, you take your lumps, and worry less about dictating range. Sooner or later, you'll get the upper hand, and meanwhile, him being swifter also likely means he's significantly more frail than you. You can afford it. Meanwhile, he's either consigned to shooting at your sides, or still getting pelted. The ability to have two arcs that can affect your enemy's movement decisions gives you options, and also means he's much less likely to prevent getting shot if he loses initiative.


Frankly, the only thing it sucks at is moving Battle Armor, but from a Horse Combined Arms aspect, it still gains some points somewhere: Many Clans continue to be prone to ignore tanks in favor of Mechs as their priority target.
Which means a clever Ballius can provoke his enemies, draw hostile fire from friendly vehicles. Which is a job it's not bad at, since it combines a lot of armor and internals, with an ability to generate a +3 or +4 modifier on its motion alone every turn. The only other way to get that reliably done is a 5/8 frame with iJJs.


Could it have been better? Yeah, even given the fact that we couldn't adjust tonnage. But I think we took that ball and ran with it a bit further than some seem to think.

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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #11 on: 13 May 2011, 14:38:30 »
. . .I'm just going to leave this here, and then run to shelter.


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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #12 on: 13 May 2011, 16:15:24 »
The few times I've used it, its done okay. Not great, but an effective part of a force. When you get to add in things like side stepping and going prone easily (as well as getting up) it can really annoy your opponent. Even more when the Balius is almost dead and you turn it around for a turn or two of its rear weaponry.

And I still say that the chest plate looks like that of a Chig from Space Above and Beyond.

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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #13 on: 13 May 2011, 16:23:08 »
Could it have been better? Yeah, even given the fact that we couldn't adjust tonnage. But I think we took that ball and ran with it a bit further than some seem to think.

I see your points. But why couldn't the tonnage adjusted to 60t? Even with 6/9 it'd have received an additional few tons of podspace, while mounting definetely more armor than a Stormcrow.
Was the Balius in an earlier source mentioned (as a 65 t mech)? I was not aware of this fact...

Nevertheless:
Possibly the mech I despise the most. Anyone that wants to use it, more power to you: you can use my share of them.  It has every strike against it.  Its ugly, its a quad, its mini isn't that great, it has no standout configs.  Worse, its redundant!  The Stormcrow fills the role, Jihad factory destruction and CHH move to the IS or not.  It makes the Linebacker look competent!  Its not even the first quad totem within the Horses! 
Exactly my feelings!
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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #14 on: 13 May 2011, 16:31:24 »
I see your points. But why couldn't the tonnage adjusted to 60t?

Because:

Not every design officially made is intended to be good.

Making it as a 60 tonner would have been better, I agree.
But you'll note we purposefully avoid the absolutely most optimum design choices sometimes. Pretty often, actually.

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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #15 on: 13 May 2011, 16:33:16 »
I realize the designs configuration are kinda redundant if you compare them to other OmniMechs.  I'd like present another thought that isn't necessary entertained as much.  Alot designs fell out production due to the Clan worlds being taken out of the picture.

As far I know as example the Stormcrow is out of production due to lack of factories.  Its numbers maybe dropping but that fluff talk not what a causal player deals with.  A player plays what they want unless their rping or doing some thing era specific.

Balius despite its problems is something that IS arguably in production.  You got fill those holes your touman with something if you don't have allot to work with. Hell's Horses have portable factories, but their not necessary making old favorites as of yet.
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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #16 on: 13 May 2011, 17:25:51 »
the balius wasn't designed to fill holes in the touman, remember it hand built by the best techs, and only given the highly successful bloodnamed warriors. its a ride of prestige, not 'practicality' (in quotes cause i can't think of a better word)
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Dread Moores

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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #17 on: 13 May 2011, 18:07:09 »
the balius wasn't designed to fill holes in the touman, remember it hand built by the best techs, and only given the highly successful bloodnamed warriors. its a ride of prestige, not 'practicality' (in quotes cause i can't think of a better word)

It is currently. I didn't think that was intended as the long-term plan for the design, though I could be mistaken.

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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #18 on: 13 May 2011, 18:28:53 »
in M and M it says limited production, and i don't think that limited production is enough to 'fill the holes'. then again limited production could mean its still a very exclusive and rare design. its exclusivity is part of what the mech is and represents i believe: excellence of production and excellence of usage, and you could say that its meant to display the excellence of the clan it represents, something it desperately needed when the mech was made
« Last Edit: 13 May 2011, 18:35:06 by Daishi411 »
"Warriors, not war machines, are the backbone of the Hell's Horses. While others worship the BattleMech as the ultimate weapon, the men and women of this Clan see even this awesome piece of technology as the tool it is. We have held to this philosophy since the days of our first Khan, who knew that the value of the common soldier far outstripped the brute force of the BattleMech. It is one reason our Clan possesses fewer mechs than most, and has led many to underestimate our fierceness and courage. Our survival against all challengers when others have fallen proves the folly of such arrogance, and testifies to the wisdom of our founders."
- saKhan Tanya Delaurel
Star Captain Logan Cobb-666th Assault War Cluster, Star Commander Octavian-The Thunder Heart Cluster
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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #19 on: 13 May 2011, 18:39:34 »
I rather like this quirky machine, with probably a bit of preference going to configs Prime and D (although I also like the proposed LRM variant Paul mentions above, but I did go a different way when mounting LRM's)...

But I would actually consider rear mounted ER large lasers instead of twin rear mounted medium pulse lasers...no one would expect a quad to be able to hit anything at 25 hexes in its rear arc...  }:)

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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #20 on: 13 May 2011, 18:52:23 »
Plus I wanted to be the first to rear-mount an LPL. ;)

Actually, you're 19 years late on the draw, see the Jagatai-C in TRO3055.

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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #21 on: 13 May 2011, 19:04:34 »
Actually, you're 19 years late on the draw, see the Jagatai-C in TRO3055.

Aint a 'Mech, is it? =p

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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #22 on: 13 May 2011, 20:23:43 »
. . .I'm just going to leave this here, and then run to shelter.



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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #23 on: 14 May 2011, 00:02:23 »
Making it as a 60 tonner would have been better, I agree.
But you'll note we purposefully avoid the absolutely most optimum design choices sometimes. Pretty often, actually.
Paul
Not to beat a dead horse, but reducing weight to 60 wouldn't change it in an optimzed mech, more in a less sucking mech  ;)
Yeah. someone had to be the counter-weight to the Hellstar (too optimzed IMHO, but maybe thats my opinion because I was on the receiving end)  :)
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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #24 on: 14 May 2011, 05:44:45 »
Not to beat a dead horse, but reducing weight to 60 wouldn't change it in an optimzed mech, more in a less sucking mech  ;)

*shrug* warts give it character. Optimized 'Mechs have been and will continue to be rare things.

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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #25 on: 14 May 2011, 07:21:56 »
I agree with that, i like the idea of having some rare and uncommon designs that in production.  Makes them more special aside from being "perfect" mech.  That does get boring, though i can't say wouldn't make economic sense if a rare not-so-great 'Mech stay in production unless there was nothing to replace it.

Thats why i keep think its bizzare how many not so great design would stay around in Dark Age.
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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #26 on: 14 May 2011, 12:25:32 »
*shrug* warts give it character. Optimized 'Mechs have been and will continue to be rare things.

But man are they beautiful when you do get them.  Gota love the Grashopper K's, Catapracht 4L's and Hellstar's of the game.

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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #27 on: 14 May 2011, 13:01:06 »
But man are they beautiful when you do get them.  Gota love the Grashopper K's, Catapracht 4L's and Hellstar's of the game.

I think par of their beauty is only possible with lots of contrast. If optimization was commonplace, it'd also be boring and pedestrian.

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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #28 on: 14 May 2011, 13:30:17 »
I think par of their beauty is only possible with lots of contrast. If optimization was commonplace, it'd also be boring and pedestrian.

Paul

Besides, leaving room for improvement is a great way to motivate people to buy the TechManual. ;)

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Re: MotW repost: Balius
« Reply #29 on: 14 May 2011, 17:07:39 »
I think par of their beauty is only possible with lots of contrast. If optimization was commonplace, it'd also be boring and pedestrian.

Paul

Totally agree though I'd more favor a better mix of mediocre to poor/high quality than the kind of wonky mix we have now where the uber good/bad seem to be more common than the mediocre (though I'm willign to admit this could be more of a perception bias since the beauty queens and warthogs tend to get the most attention).  mind you that's the result of 25 years of line development, and thus I'm not criticizing any particular "administration" as it were with the exception that the final FASA team which seemed to have put out RS:Upgrades with a kind of "smoke em if ya got em" view on optimized designs, but given that they expected the line to end, that's understandable.

Though i guess once thing I'd add is that I'd like to see the Vehicle Traits used in TRO's.  While there's obviously cases of where obselete/wrong weapons systems are produced for various reasons for the most part most militaries tend to have a pretty fair idea of what they want and need, and it's the execution of that list of demands that often falls short.  That's something that the Traits seem to represent better in many cases.

-Jackmc
« Last Edit: 14 May 2011, 17:10:54 by Jackmc »