TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold

[Tymers Realm]

"We don't even legally acknowledge your existence."  WOW.

There's similar language in PGI's responses as well...

[truetanker]

tag...

TT

[The Eagle]

tag...

TT

You're it!

[truetanker]

I'm not Pennywise!

TT

[ANS Kamas P81]

Thanks for restarting the thread, Bedwyr. I agree that I expect PGI to issue another Motion to Dismiss.

They did indeed, in 84.  85 is mostly HBI saying "you aren't real nanny boo" (basically 'we don't have enough knowledge of their claim, so we deny it') but 84 is the great one.  Some excerpts:

Piranha denies that the warrior robots images shown in the table in paragraph 16 are “depicted in the Robotech copyright registrations owned by Harmony Gold.” The copyright registrations listed in paragraph 15 and attached as Exhibit A of Harmony Gold’s SAC are directed to motion pictures. The images in the table in paragraph 16 appear to have been copied from a book titled Macross: Perfect Memory, the copyright of which is registered to Big West and others, not Harmony Gold or Tatsunoko.

Short form: "Your copyright is only the actual animation, the drawings that you're claiming you own you took from a book that wasn't covered under your copyright and isn't even Tatsunoko's work."
Paragraph 18 is a big one:

Complaint: While the Japanese court decisions limited Tatsunoko’s right to make derivative works based on the “Macross” characters, they confirmed that Tatsunoko owned the copyright in the “Macross” series to the exclusion of Big West and Studio Nue,...

Reply: Piranha denies that the Japanese court decisions acknowledged or confirmed that
Tatsunoko has ever had any exclusive rights to the “Macross” characters. Piranha denies that the
Japanese court decisions validated any exclusive rights to the “Macross” characters purportedly
granted to Harmony Gold.

Sorry but that's flat out untrue, as far as the complaint goes.  The facts are that Tatsunoko owns Macross, EXCEPT for the 41 character designs that are owned by Big West.  That is entirely in opposition to the claim of "to the exclusion of Big West" which is a legal claim that "Big West has zero copyright control over any part of Macross at all."

And then, in my opinion, the kill shot:

Piranha admits that the 2003 amendment states that “[Harmony Gold] expressly
acknowledges that [Tatsunoko] is not granting [Harmony Gold] any rights to create derivative
works using the original 41 characters as contained in the [Macross] Series.” Piranha denies that
Harmony Gold has exclusive rights to any of the “Macross” characters.

Admit in this case is a loose term, they're the defendants and they are 'admitting' a legal truth.  It does not mean that 'yes we admit the plaintiff is correct' but rather 'we admit this factual statement is indeed factual and here are the facts.'

Among the defenses, there's a couple interesting ones as well.  Outright stating that HG's claim for copyright is invalid and unenforceable, the fact that they claim no particular damages to be granted relief, and that HG does not own or have exclusive license to some or all of the works in question.  Based on that and a dozen more reasons (literally), PGI is calling for a dismissal *with prejudice* (which means it never comes up again and HG can't re-file new complaints), award of legal fees, award of potential other relief, or else COME AT ME BRO demanding a jury trial.

[Nightsong]

"We don't even legally acknowledge your existence."  WOW.

It isn’t so much as we deny your existence so much as “we do not have absolute and total confirmation of all the details, and therefore don’t want to acknowledge anything that would give someone room to wiggle out of a legalistic loophole.” As you can see, they don’t acknowledge any of the other parties either. They’re just covering bases.

[ColBosch]

It isn’t so much as we deny your existence so much as “we do not have absolute and total confirmation of all the details, and therefore don’t want to acknowledge anything that would give someone room to wiggle out of a legalistic loophole.” As you can see, they don’t acknowledge any of the other parties either. They’re just covering bases.

Of course. But it's still amusing. "We deny your existence."

[ColBosch]

I am going to mention one thing about the Robotech RPG: at the end of March, Palladium will have to stop selling all products under that license. This includes PDFs from Drive-Thru RPG, so if you have bought any, make sure you download them in the next 30 days.

[glitterboy2098]

I am going to mention one thing about the Robotech RPG: at the end of March, Palladium will have to stop selling all products under that license. This includes PDFs from Drive-Thru RPG, so if you have bought any, make sure you download them in the next 30 days.

ditto the physical books for the new edition as well. get them while you can without paying absurd prices.

[Charlie 6]

A coworker and I discussed the lawsuit, the license pull, and that fact that both of us have a pile of RRT stuff in our respective basements.  We both thought that PGI was going for the throat.

[YingJanshi]

So say this suit gets dismissed with prejudice, what's the chances that HG might cut their losses and sell off the IP to someone that might actually do something with it? (Granted, said entity would basically have to recreate the IP from scratch...but at least they'd have the brand.)

[glitterboy2098]

Low i suspect. Robotech is the tail that is wagging the dog right now as far as HG is concerned.

[abou]

So say this suit gets dismissed with prejudice, what's the chances that HG might cut their losses and sell off the IP to someone that might actually do something with it? (Granted, said entity would basically have to recreate the IP from scratch...but at least they'd have the brand.)

Even if they wanted to, I don't know if they could legally. That would make a 3rd party that would need to enter into an agreement with Tatsunoko. And Tatsunoko is someone, in the age of the Internet and digital communications, who might not even want to bother with a distributor of Macross when they could probably do it themselves at this point.

[ColBosch]

So say this suit gets dismissed with prejudice, what's the chances that HG might cut their losses and sell off the IP to someone that might actually do something with it? (Granted, said entity would basically have to recreate the IP from scratch...but at least they'd have the brand.)

Zero. They'll try to figure out something else to do with it.

[YingJanshi]

Even if they wanted to, I don't know if they could legally. That would make a 3rd party that would need to enter into an agreement with Tatsunoko. And Tatsunoko is someone, in the age of the Internet and digital communications, who might not even want to bother with a distributor of Macross when they could probably do it themselves at this point.

Apologies if I don't put this quite right: but my understanding was that even though it was made from Macross (and other anime) it was considered a completely separate IP from Macross? So that even when HG loses the license from Tatsunoku, they would retain the brand RoboTech and whatever story and anything else they wrote in-house; they would just no longer be able to use the anime to depict that story? Is that an oversimplification?




EDIT: (Since ColBosch ninja'd me: :D)

Zero. They'll try to figure out something else to do with it.

Oh wells. Guess that would be too hopeful thinking...

[abou]

Ah, I see what you mean, YingJanshi.

Yeah... I think they'll hold on to RoboTech unless they go bankrupt.

[klarg1]

So say this suit gets dismissed with prejudice, what's the chances that HG might cut their losses and sell off the IP to someone that might actually do something with it? (Granted, said entity would basically have to recreate the IP from scratch...but at least they'd have the brand.)

I suppose it depends on the details, but it sounds like the facts being presented along with the motion to dismiss suggest very little left to property, aside from the Robotech storyline, and some associated trade dress. I'm assuming they still have some rights to build off of the Mosapaeda and Southern Cross elements of Robotech, but that's purely an assumption on my part.

That doesn't seem like a whole lot to hang onto or sell. Am I way off base here?

[iamfanboy]

I suppose it depends on the details, but it sounds like the facts being presented along with the motion to dismiss suggest very little left to property, aside from the Robotech storyline, and some associated trade dress. I'm assuming they still have some rights to build off of the Mosapaeda and Southern Cross elements of Robotech, but that's purely an assumption on my part.

That doesn't seem like a whole lot to hang onto or sell. Am I way off base here?

And it also raises the possibility of them having the same stuff pulled on Harmony Gold, but at a later date - don't forget that Big West was also hip-deep in Genesis Climber Mospeada AND SD Cavalry Southern Cross. They just aren't as important as Macross, and only have relevance to this day because of the Robotech angle.

[glitterboy2098]

well, as far as i am aware HG has SDC:Southern Cross and GC:MOSPEADA without any of the legal mess that the macross stuff had. but since SDC:Southern Cross and GC:MOSPEADA never had any official connection to battletech, they aren't something of debate for these lawsuits.

[ColBosch]

The rights to Mospeada and Southern Cross also go away in 2021. They're just not as important to us, since none of their "warrior robot" designs are an issue here.

[ANS Kamas P81]

I'm assuming they still have some rights to build off of the Mosapaeda and Southern Cross elements of Robotech, but that's purely an assumption on my part.

That doesn't seem like a whole lot to hang onto or sell. Am I way off base here?

Everything that I've seen says yes, but outside of Genesis Survivor Gaiarth there's been nothing at all for those other shows to follow up with.  Macross as a franchise is still quite big, while GC Mospeada only had one sequel (in title only, it seems) while SDC Southern Cross had crap popularity over there.  Something about the original story being that humanity goes off and takes over some planet, and then fights off the native inhabitants when they come to reclaim it...not really the most culturally sensitive show at the time for early 1980s Japan.  Not getting any further into that quagmire, though.

Really, there is potential for post-New Generation stuff (see Shadow Chronicles) or whatnot, with new characters and followup mecha designs, but the simple fact is that Harmony Gold doesn't have the creative power.  Mospeada came about through one of the best art houses in the business back then (god bless Artmic) and Studio Nue & Big West's work on the characters and animation...yeah, it's 80s anime, but damn if it wasn't transformative.
[font size=1]i know you saw that[/font]
They don't have the talent to continue such a thing with followup stuff set entirely in their own Robotech universe, and with the failure of the Robotech-branded game, the sudden axing of the Palladium license as well as the legendary legal quagmire any attempt to work the IP would be?  It's downright toxic property now, and the only part that has any worldwide recognition and pre-existing fanbase ceases to exist in a few years anyway.

well, as far as i am aware HG has SDC:Southern Cross and GC:MOSPEADA without any of the legal mess that the macross stuff had. but since SDC:Southern Cross and GC:MOSPEADA never had any official connection to battletech, they aren't something of debate for these lawsuits.

Very true, and to my knowledge there's no legal question of their ownership of them.  But with their more recent history...they're just as dead properties over here under HG as they are in Japan.

[guardiandashi]

I suppose it depends on the details, but it sounds like the facts being presented along with the motion to dismiss suggest very little left to property, aside from the Robotech storyline, and some associated trade dress. I'm assuming they still have some rights to build off of the Mosapaeda and Southern Cross elements of Robotech, but that's purely an assumption on my part.

That doesn't seem like a whole lot to hang onto or sell. Am I way off base here?

my understanding as others mentioned.
if the judge does dismiss with prejudice HG's case, (which due to the mention of being willing to consider rule 11 sanctions against HG prior to the SAC seems a strong possibility) it means that HG effectively only owns the "ROBOTECH" name and in house created plot, of course as long as their contract with Tatsunoko, continues they also have the distribution rights for MACROSS related videos, product and similar.
their problem is as soon as their license with Tatsunoko ends (if it doesn't get renewed) effectively all they have is what they produced in house, which frankly IMO isn't much. 

the biggest issue with the robotech/MACROSS IP is that HG has been so toxic about Zealously protecting their (arguably non-existent rights) that they have ticked off just about everyone with any interest and or actual stake in the franchise.  because they honestly have never successfully produced any product of real value/quality.

on a side note when you start looking into HG and see all the other legal issues some of their exec's have gotten into it seems to me that they are really good at finding ways (legal or not) to make money, and they have enough money, that at least some of the time they can "buy" a decision in their favor, but when that fails, they often loose and loose big time.

[Phobos101]

Sorry to go back a few steps here, but I meant to ask this a while ago.

Having read the Amended Complaint, and more recently the Second Amended Complaint, I didn't really see any substantial difference between the two. I mean the original complaint and the AC were two clearly different animals, but the AC and the SAC are very similar to the point I couldn't really tell you what HG changed about it.

Did any of you get a better read of it than I did, and if so can you shed some light on the difference?


Also, from what I've seen in this thread, PGI's new response sounds brutal. Can't wait to have a read after dinner.

[ANS Kamas P81]

The changes were pretty minor at best.  Sadlerbw summed them up in the previous thread.

"20.As a result of the litigation between Tatsunoko and Big West, Tatsunoko andHarmony Gold amended their license agreement, first in 1998 and then again in 2003, to remove Harmony Gold’s exclusive right to make derivative films or television works based on the “Macross” character images, which include the Robotech warrior robots. However, Harmony Gold continues to have the exclusive right to make copies of, distribute, publicly perform, display, and merchandize the “Macross” character images, including the Robotech warrior robots, in the United States, with full rights to enforce each and all of its exclusive rights."

Basically, they are claiming that the Tatsunoko agreement means they don't have exclusive rights to make derivative FILMS or TELEVISION WORKS only, but that they still have exclusive rights to derivative anything else. I don't know that the plain language of the Tatsunoko agreement supports that interpretation, but that is the core of what they are claiming.

Basically they're coming back to the same argument as before, which Zilly ostensibly warned them against doing - don't waste the court's time.  So we'll see when there's movement again.  Going by the court schedule, they're done with it as far as this month goes, so third and fourth Friday in March is what we're looking for, 3/16 or 3/23.

Unless something unexpected happens in the meantime, I'd not expect anything until then; PGI's motion on their SAC is in, we're back to where we were not so long ago, so...maybe HG will make a request for yet another amended complaint.  I wouldn't count on it.

[JadedFalcon]

Re: Robotech as a brand - If Harmony Gold loses this case, they could then use it as a legal precedence to create a Macross/Southern Cross/Mospeada-free version of Robotech after the license expires, that has robot warrior designs that may or may not be visually similar to those owned by Big West and Studio Nu. It could be a way for Robotech to continue, only owned entirely by HG with no royalties paid out to other parties. That's assuming anyone like Sony will want to do business with HG afterwards.

And then the other way HG can lose but still win is by using the expenses of the lawsuit to show a business loss (in addition to Tatsunoko royalties), possibly carried over to multiple tax years, potentially helping to offset profits from the real estate portion of the company.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Does HG even have a creative division that can produce new content or imagery?

[Phobos101]

Cheers ANS Kamas, that clears it up a bit.

Re: Robotech as a brand - If Harmony Gold loses this case, they could then use it as a legal precedence to create a Macross/Southern Cross/Mospeada-free version of Robotech after the license expires, that has robot warrior designs that may or may not be visually similar to those owned by Big West and Studio Nu. It could be a way for Robotech to continue, only owned entirely by HG with no royalties paid out to other parties. That's assuming anyone like Sony will want to do business with HG afterwards.

In my opinion, Robotech is less than the sum of its parts. You take out the Macross core, and the story they threw together to turn three shows into one loses all its value.

Does HG even have a creative division that can produce new content or imagery?

Warrior Robot designs are a dime a dozen, see deviantart for proof of that. It's the iconic ones that stick around (which is why the unseen are like heroin to some of us...). I just don't see it as a having a profitable future for HG if they lose this case and their licence in 2021.

Also, I look forward to a future in which we can refer to mecha/giant robots/mechs as "warrior robots" and those in the know will be reminded of all this and have a good laugh.

[ANS Kamas P81]

Does HG even have a creative division that can produce new content or imagery?

Yeah, they've been making some new animations.  Things like Shadow Chronicles, for example.  I mean, it wasn't actually made in-house by HG, but animated by a professional company, but that just means they can go hook up with them again right?  That was 2004-6, so it's not THAT long ago, all they'd have to do is call up...

...Tatsunoko.

_{^{this is where I link the Avenue Q song 'Schadenfreude' but I like not being banned}}

[glitterboy2098]

Re: Robotech as a brand - If Harmony Gold loses this case, they could then use it as a legal precedence to create a Macross/Southern Cross/Mospeada-free version of Robotech after the license expires, that has robot warrior designs that may or may not be visually similar to those owned by Big West and Studio Nu. It could be a way for Robotech to continue, only owned entirely by HG with no royalties paid out to other parties. That's assuming anyone like Sony will want to do business with HG afterwards.

basically a cross between what was done for Yamato:2199 (updated retelling of the story) and the major visual changes seen in the recent Star Trek feature films?

honestly that would be the smart thing for them.. but clearly they either aren't interested, can't conceive of it, or just flat out lack the funds to do so.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Yeah, they've been making some new animations.  Things like Shadow Chronicles, for example.  I mean, it wasn't actually made in-house by HG, but animated by a professional company, but that just means they can go hook up with them again right?  That was 2004-6, so it's not THAT long ago, all they'd have to do is call up...

...Tatsunoko.

_{^{this is where I link the Avenue Q song 'Schadenfreude' but I like not being banned}}

That's what I thought.