Author Topic: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?  (Read 18202 times)

Domi1981

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What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« on: 06 March 2018, 11:20:42 »
Does anybody know anything? Did the programmer die? Are there any successor programmes?

Tymers Realm

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #1 on: 06 March 2018, 11:28:40 »
Best I know is that the developer for SSW has let it go.

As to 'successors'? There MegaMekLabs. It is the most up to date suite there is.
Though honestly I prefer SSW as well. The whole user interface is leaps and bounds better than MML.

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #2 on: 06 March 2018, 11:47:29 »
LostInSpace left the project and Skyhigh now runs the MUL (plus whatever else he does for that pesky day job) so the two main devs are now gone.

MegaMekLab has a better interface than it did but honestly a clunky GUI doesn’t bother me if it gets the job done.

Isn’t there an online designer that’s pretty good as well?

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #3 on: 06 March 2018, 12:44:10 »
Best I know is that the developer for SSW has let it go.

As to 'successors'? There MegaMekLabs. It is the most up to date suite there is.
Though honestly I prefer SSW as well. The whole user interface is leaps and bounds better than MML.
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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #4 on: 06 March 2018, 17:23:11 »
I still use SSW as I cann't get any of the MegaMek stuff to work.
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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #5 on: 06 March 2018, 18:38:55 »
Of the two, SSW is much more user friendly and prints a nicer looking sheet.
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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #6 on: 06 March 2018, 19:29:55 »
And has a very nice "export to clipboard" feature that makes posting 'mechs (and vehicles with SAW!) with code tags very easy.

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #7 on: 06 March 2018, 21:02:50 »
Any suggestions and complaints for MML should be posted to: https://github.com/MegaMek/megameklab/issues

Or you can discuss everything in the megamek sub-forum on these forums. The most recent changes have been to printing and the ability to create small craft and dropships. Jumpships, etc are planned after stable I believe. Another item at least discussed was updating the UI though I don't know what the exact changes might be.

Brakiel

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #8 on: 07 March 2018, 07:10:38 »
It would have been nice if they had open sourced SSW. Then the community could handle updating it. Does anyone know how to contact the former devs?

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #9 on: 07 March 2018, 07:14:08 »
It would be nice for a official unit builder for CBT. I loved the HeavyMetal programs it would be nice to see something like that again.
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Domi1981

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #10 on: 07 March 2018, 07:19:52 »
It would have been nice if they had open sourced SSW. Then the community could handle updating it. Does anyone know how to contact the former devs?

Maybe I´m wrong but I think this is about license issues with Microsoft again. Its time someone puts out a new brand and recreates Battletech with a modern approach. Maybe not on Alpha Strike level but a bit more streamlined than CBT.

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #11 on: 07 March 2018, 07:30:36 »
It would have been nice if they had open sourced SSW. Then the community could handle updating it. Does anyone know how to contact the former devs?

https://sourceforge.net/p/sskunkwerks/code/HEAD/tree/
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Brakiel

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #12 on: 07 March 2018, 07:42:15 »
https://sourceforge.net/p/sskunkwerks/code/HEAD/tree/

I thought the Sourceforge version was out of date? 0.6.83.1 was released Sep 11, 2014, and the last commit I see is in 2013.

nckestrel

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #13 on: 07 March 2018, 08:53:34 »
I thought the Sourceforge version was out of date? 0.6.83.1 was released Sep 11, 2014, and the last commit I see is in 2013.

No idea.
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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #14 on: 07 March 2018, 10:03:33 »
6.83.1 from 9/2014 is on the ssw site

http://www.solarisskunkwerks.com/

Where the source is for that is anyone’s guess

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #15 on: 07 March 2018, 10:05:30 »
I still use SSW as I cann't get any of the MegaMek stuff to work.

What issues are you having, and what version are you using.

I thought the Sourceforge version was out of date? 0.6.83.1 was released Sep 11, 2014, and the last commit I see is in 2013.

That was the last time the programs where worked on.

Maybe I´m wrong but I think this is about license issues with Microsoft again. Its time someone puts out a new brand and recreates Battletech with a modern approach. Maybe not on Alpha Strike level but a bit more streamlined than CBT.

I suspect the Dev's got pulled into the MUL development and that became their new focus.

And has a very nice "export to clipboard" feature that makes posting 'mechs (and vehicles with SAW!) with code tags very easy.

We've made fixes to this but their is still room for improvement.

Code: [Select]
Archer ARC-2K
Base Tech Level: Introductory (IS)
Level          Era
-------------------
Experimental    - 
Advanced        - 
Standard      2856+
Tech Rating: D/C-E-D-X

Weight: 70 tons
BV: 1,356
Cost: 6,170,773 C-bills
Source: TRO 3039 - Succession Wars
Role: Missile Boat

Movement: 4/6
Engine: 280
Heat Sinks: 12
Gyro: Standard Gyro

Internal: 107
Armor: 176/217
                     Internal  Armor   
----------------------------------------
Head                        3      9   
Center Torso               22     29   
Center Torso (rear)                8   
Right Torso                15     20   
Right Torso (rear)                 5   
Left Torso                 15     20   
Left Torso (rear)                  5   
Right Arm                  11     18   
Left Arm                   11     18   
Right Leg                  15     22   
Left Leg                   15     22   

Weapons      Loc  Heat 
------------------------
Large Laser   LA    8   
Large Laser   RA    8   
LRM 15        LT    5   
LRM 15        RT    5   

Ammo         Loc  Shots 
-------------------------
LRM 15 Ammo   LT      8 
LRM 15 Ammo   LT      8 
LRM 15 Ammo   RT      8 
LRM 15 Ammo   RT      8 
« Last Edit: 07 March 2018, 10:16:58 by Hammer »
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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #16 on: 07 March 2018, 10:18:06 »
6.83.1 from 9/2014 is on the ssw site

http://www.solarisskunkwerks.com/

Where the source is for that is anyone’s guess

Apparently one fix for MG Arrays is missing.  I don't think that's what is keeping anybody from working on SSW.
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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #17 on: 07 March 2018, 11:37:54 »
I used to play with SkyHigh. He doesn't have the time/interest as before and so he (like many other BT fans) has taken a step back.

Sharpnel

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #18 on: 07 March 2018, 13:08:00 »
What issues are you having, and what version are you using.


It's 0.41.28 and I'm getting an error that says "The registry refers to a non-existent Java Runtime environment or the Runtime is corrupted. The system cannot find the path specified"
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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #19 on: 07 March 2018, 13:50:11 »
What is your java version? Go to version 8 and try again.
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Sharpnel

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #20 on: 07 March 2018, 14:03:34 »
Java is the latest update of Version 8
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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #21 on: 07 March 2018, 14:14:05 »
It's 0.41.28 and I'm getting an error that says "The registry refers to a non-existent Java Runtime environment or the Runtime is corrupted. The system cannot find the path specified"

That's the error for a bad java install. You'd need to uninstall java, then reinstall the latest version of Java 8.  Do not grab Java 9 as we don't support it fully.
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Sharpnel

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #22 on: 07 March 2018, 14:38:11 »
That seemed to work. Thanks for the help
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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #23 on: 07 March 2018, 19:34:20 »
Hammer: that's not bad, but the SSW format includes crits and tons, which I (at least) prefer.

Tymers Realm

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #24 on: 07 March 2018, 21:02:12 »
Hammer: that's not bad, but the SSW format includes crits and tons, which I (at least) prefer.

And Heat Sink placement. Something MMLs formatting doesn't show.

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #25 on: 07 March 2018, 21:38:32 »
Good point, +1 to that!

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #26 on: 08 March 2018, 10:39:32 »
Since this thread is already about SSW, I've got a question... or rather, some buggy behaviour that I can't explain.

My SSW seems to have trouble with MG Arrays, when adding them to a Mech none of them have any weight and can't be allocated to the Mechs critical slots...  unless you add another non-array MG of the same type as well.  :o

Another problem is that Battlemech turrets don't seem to weigh anything even when the location they are in is stuffed full of weapons.  ???

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #27 on: 08 March 2018, 10:42:30 »
Another problem is that Battlemech turrets don't seem to weigh anything even when the location they are in is stuffed full of weapons.  ???

Once you have the turret and weapons in the location you want, you then have to rt click on each weapon and select 'Add to Turret'. Then SSW will include the turret weight.

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #28 on: 08 March 2018, 10:46:26 »
Once you have the turret and weapons in the location you want, you then have to rt click on each weapon and select 'Add to Turret'. Then SSW will include the turret weight.

Ahh, thank you! Now I can finally make designs with turrets without having to keep track of the consumed tonnage in my head and remember to leave that amount of tonnage free.  ^-^

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #29 on: 08 March 2018, 10:51:29 »
No worries.
I've been playing with Quads and turrets recently in SSW. You also have to rt click to armor a component and a good number of other things in SSW, but you get used to it.

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #30 on: 08 March 2018, 15:02:06 »
It would be nice for a official unit builder for CBT. I loved the HeavyMetal programs it would be nice to see something like that again.

Catalyst has had the rights to create a unit builder for several years. We have had little interest in response.

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=48296.0
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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #31 on: 08 March 2018, 15:15:44 »
Catalyst has had the rights to create a unit builder for several years. We have had little interest in response.

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=48296.0

I am almost certainly biting off more than I can chew here, but I'll bite anyway. Do I understand you correctly that the problem is a lack of interest on the programmer side? And if so, what would be involved in becoming the programmer? Broad strokes only for now, and PM me if you like. I've had a couple projects kicking around the back of my head for a while related to coding BT utility programs, but I didn't realize this gap existed.

Edit: For anyone else who may be interested, this is the discussion thread referenced in the above post.
« Last Edit: 08 March 2018, 15:18:10 by Alsadius »

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #32 on: 08 March 2018, 15:31:00 »
Catalyst has had the rights to create a unit builder for several years. We have had little interest in response.

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=48296.0

Well it was buried in the Computer Console Game Forum, try putting it up on the Main Page of the forums, where people may actually see it.

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #33 on: 08 March 2018, 16:08:33 »
I am almost certainly biting off more than I can chew here, but I'll bite anyway. Do I understand you correctly that the problem is a lack of interest on the programmer side? And if so, what would be involved in becoming the programmer? Broad strokes only for now, and PM me if you like. I've had a couple projects kicking around the back of my head for a while related to coding BT utility programs, but I didn't realize this gap existed.

Edit: For anyone else who may be interested, this is the discussion thread referenced in the above post.

Honestly, they want MegaMekLab (or SSW), but MML (and SSW) isn't something they can own.
CGL isn't a software development company.  They don't know a thing about developing software. They can't tell you how they want it developed. But obviously many fans have done it on their own, without CGL. (Heavy Metal, MML, SSW are just a few.)  So they figured they could ask and see if somebody was interested in doing it officially.
Note that the request came while Herb was still Line Developer.  I have no idea of the current TPTB's thoughts/desires with regards to software.  My guess would be back to "CGL isn't a software development company" and they're trying to get back to a solid focus for BattleTech (box sets) not on software.  Not that they would be against it, but they have no time to deal with it.

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Alsadius

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #34 on: 08 March 2018, 16:14:31 »
Honestly, they want MegaMekLab (or SSW), but MML (and SSW) isn't something they can own.
CGL isn't a software development company.  They don't know a thing about developing software. They can't tell you how they want it developed. But obviously many fans have done it on their own, without CGL. (Heavy Metal, MML, SSW are just a few.)  So they figured they could ask and see if somebody was interested in doing it officially.
Note that the request came while Herb was still Line Developer.  I have no idea of the current TPTB's thoughts/desires with regards to software.  My guess would be back to "CGL isn't a software development company" and they're trying to get back to a solid focus for BattleTech (box sets) not on software.  Not that they would be against it, but they have no time to deal with it.

I understand that. I'm asking because I may want to code it. No software dev on their part, just licensing and a sales channel. I know there's a lot of potential roadblocks before any such project could see the light of day(both on Catalyst's side and on mine), but it's piqued my interest enough that I want to look into it a bit.

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #35 on: 08 March 2018, 18:36:26 »
It is a daunting task even software companies don't want to touch iirc from past posts from cons.

I have been interested since that post landed but I don't know if the pay is worth the headache. Granted I never heard back on what they were willing to offer...

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #36 on: 09 March 2018, 05:51:11 »
It is a daunting task even software companies don't want to touch iirc from past posts from cons.

I have been interested since that post landed but I don't know if the pay is worth the headache. Granted I never heard back on what they were willing to offer...

Not that daunting a task, it's just a task that would have a poor return. Enthusiasts did several different programs to run it as far back as the early/mid 90s, including printing record sheets, having hit location tables, you name it. If an enthusiast can do that, it's not a daunting task technically, but I have no doubt there would be a relatively poor RoI, and most importantly, they'd still be unusable at ranked Cons.

I've been hoping that BT would move into the electronic age, but there's been substantial reluctance on the Devs part. Having things like dice rollers and all tables built in would mean you could simply add the range, movement mod and select your weapons and a tablet could tell you where you hit and how much damage was done. There's lots of ways it could be used.

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #37 on: 09 March 2018, 09:31:33 »
At one point in time for a Programming Project in college I did build a Mech Construction Program using the Level 1 rules ion C, It isn't that difficult, the problem is organizing all the weapons equipment, costs, BV in tables/arrays, which has only been compounded by the large amount of weapons/equipment, and the fact we have over a dozen types of units, many with their own unique weapons and equipment tables that has been added over the years. It is still just a database exercise, all be it one where one has to reference over a thousand pages of rules and errata, with some drop downs, select lists.

The hardest part would be the GUI and graphical representation of the armor diagram and the equipment. Being only C I didn't have to go that far.

I'd Start with Mechs, then do Combat Vehicles, then ASFs, Battle Armor, Infantry, Dropships/Small Craft, Jumpships/Warships, Finally Support Vehicles/Mobile Structures and Buildings.

If the Heavy Metal Code is available, It has all stuff more or less, would be a good starting point. However lots of the Post Jihad Era equipment has funky rules that would have to be accounted for, AES, Turrets, Blue Shield Particle Dampeners, C3i, Nova CEWS, but I think the Basics from the Old MaxTech book are in there.

Maybe use a software as a service model, put the construction tool up with the MUL, pay a few bucks and get access with the ability to print out the record sheets for all the MUL mechs.

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #38 on: 09 March 2018, 10:18:45 »
If the Heavy Metal Code is available,

It's not.
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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #39 on: 09 March 2018, 12:54:57 »
Get me an interactive electronic record sheet that I can use on a tablet or mobile device and I'll be back playing Battletech as my primary game. I hate lugging around my binders of record sheets. Who else has binders of record sheets? I got at least 5 of them and they're the 4" ones.

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #40 on: 09 March 2018, 13:31:08 »
Just wanted to be clear about requirements. They are laid out on the solicitation post, but any software for making sheets officially needs to support:

1) All current rules, including up to experimental equipment
2) Record sheets for all current units

Those two alone are very difficult. You can somewhat solve #2 if you import everything from MMlab, but you'll need to at least write a converter.

#1 is a hard one to get everything for launch.
No-Dachi has a counter-argument. Nothing further? Ok.
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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #41 on: 09 March 2018, 13:36:50 »
Just wanted to be clear about requirements. They are laid out on the solicitation post, but any software for making sheets officially needs to support:

1) All current rules, including up to experimental equipment
2) Record sheets for all current units

Those two alone are very difficult. You can somewhat solve #2 if you import everything from MMlab, but you'll need to at least write a converter.

#1 is a hard one to get everything for launch.

Where are they laid out, sorry? Those are both eminently logical features to include, but I don't see those requirements explicitly stated in either of the threads linked above. Am I missing a thread?

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #42 on: 09 March 2018, 13:45:24 »

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=48296.0

Where are they laid out, sorry? Those are both eminently logical features to include, but I don't see those requirements explicitly stated in either of the threads linked above. Am I missing a thread?

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #43 on: 09 March 2018, 13:53:24 »
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=48296.0

The closest I can see there is:

> they are looking for a fully developed unit designer program, or at least mostly developed.

That isn't the same thing.

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #44 on: 09 March 2018, 15:58:32 »
It was in an old discussion back when that was posted. Loong time ago.
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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #45 on: 09 March 2018, 17:57:04 »
about 15 years back i came across mech builder that used a record sheet diagram to build your mech, for life of me i dont remember where and i never dl a copy.
to insert something in a spot it used drop down menu for items once done you validated the design if it was no good you went back and edit the design. it could print out also.
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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #46 on: 09 March 2018, 18:31:25 »
This is starting to make me think about the ability of a possible tablet app to ingest XML-ified record sheet data and displaying it for filling out.
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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #47 on: 09 March 2018, 19:05:45 »
I figure I have about six more years before I can retire... if no one's done it by then, I expect I'll finally have the time.  And I'll definitely be looking for that SSW code to start with.  I really like their UI.

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #48 on: 09 March 2018, 19:11:12 »

Isn’t there an online designer that’s pretty good as well?

Remlab is probably what you are thinking of

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #49 on: 09 March 2018, 20:33:24 »
I was unaware of remlab. Will have to check it out

I was actually thinking of the tool over at mordel.net

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #50 on: 10 March 2018, 00:26:57 »
Catalyst has had the rights to create a unit builder for several years. We have had little interest in response.

CGL wants someone to do a job worth tens of thousands of dollars for free, without any guarantee that she would get paid. That's offensive at best! No wonder you had little interest in this project

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #51 on: 10 March 2018, 01:36:02 »
CGL wants someone to do a job worth tens of thousands of dollars for free, without any guarantee that she would get paid. That's offensive at best! No wonder you had little interest in this project

Except that fans have done it before. Many times. CGL would just like to catch the next person willing to do it before they begin. As for "a job worth tens of thousands of dollars," have you seen the Master Unit List?
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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #52 on: 10 March 2018, 01:38:27 »
Just wanted to be clear about requirements. They are laid out on the solicitation post, but any software for making sheets officially needs to support:

1) All current rules, including up to experimental equipment
2) Record sheets for all current units

Those two alone are very difficult. You can somewhat solve #2 if you import everything from MMlab, but you'll need to at least write a converter.

#1 is a hard one to get everything for launch.

Yeah, because there's programs that can simulate real life physics effects, and a ruleset with finite, well known principles is so hard. I'm sorry, I don't believe that for a second.

I would posit that CGL is simply unwilling to, or can't afford to, pay the cost of properly developed software.

CGL wants someone to do a job worth tens of thousands of dollars for free, without any guarantee that she would get paid. That's offensive at best! No wonder you had little interest in this project

Not sure they weren't willing to pay for it, they just wanted a vendor product, not a new employee.

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #53 on: 10 March 2018, 08:43:09 »
that was my take on it too. Someone they could provide the official license to and work with to help them sell it.

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #54 on: 12 March 2018, 18:19:28 »
I don't think another official tool is going to happen as long as the free, open source ones are still a thing.  They do the job very well.  When MML can finally do the rest of the large craft, I can't see myself using HMA anymore.
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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #55 on: 13 March 2018, 04:53:49 »
I don't think another official tool is going to happen as long as the free, open source ones are still a thing.  They do the job very well.  When MML can finally do the rest of the large craft, I can't see myself using HMA anymore.

I think you are correct in your assumption, but not the condition. CGL is not going to commission another official tool, period. It wouldn't matter if SSK and MML were shutdown voluntarily, I simply don't think the Devs feel that it is of value, which is a pity.

The HM series was developed in the time of intense competition, you virtually couldn't turn around without stumbling over a free mech or veh designer. Everything from simple spreadsheets with special print functions to complex UIs that were roughly equivalent to the HM series. This could happen again, by the Devs actually committing to the idea, and devoting resources to it, which they are clearly unwilling to do. If you are serious about crafting a digital tool, you don't ask the community that plays the game, you ask a software developer! The Devs are willing to accept maybe someones tool that's been fan generated but clearly not interested in making this an actual business decision and commitment.

The biggest issue facing the development of a digital tool is demand, BT is the tightwads game, to put it bluntly. You can play the game with bottletops, lego men, whatever, you just need the rules and map sheets. So, where does the issue lie here? Simple, it lies with an inability to read the market and an unwillingness to accept risk, namely that those notorious tightwads will once again pucker up even after all those resources were invested. Development of good, robust, usable and most importantly, unique digital tool set would likely bring a new player base into the game, an automated play system, where you still moved Battlemechs around the map sheets, under the view of a tablet camera, selected your attacks on the tablet and had all of those attacks resolved automatically would make the game far faster paced, without sacrificing granularity. Having two tablets on either side of the table, blutooth linked, would allow them to share data and automatically send information back and forth, meaning the only issue the player needed to think about is tactical moves and selecting attacks in a handy screen on the tablet. That would be an interesting time to be a fan!

If you think my diatribe is unfair, I will point you to the currently displayed Battlecorps site under the heading of fiction, a site that has been closed for some time. The lack of timeliness regarding the updates in the HM series, all the while it was advertised on this very website as the official tool for Battletech design! These are not petty points, they point directly to the idea that the Devs are unwilling or disinterested in moving into the digital space.

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #56 on: 13 March 2018, 05:18:47 »
Any official digital tools would have to be licensed through Microsoft due to the IP split at the end of the century, no?

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #57 on: 13 March 2018, 05:49:53 »
Any official digital tools would have to be licensed through Microsoft due to the IP split at the end of the century, no?

This is a touchy area, as I understand it it's not truly laid down as Microsoft holds rights to all entertainment, but not necessarily all rights to BT software.

You'd need a contract lawyer, with access to the contract, to actually answer that, but I never saw any MicroSoft emblems on my HMP.

As an aside, this doesn't change anything, even if MicroSoft do indeed hold the rights, since it's just another license, potentially with royalties to be paid. As I said, it's a business decision, one which I think is damned more by the fact that the player base is likely not big enough to purchase commercially significant amounts of the product.
« Last Edit: 13 March 2018, 06:04:41 by Nightlord01 »

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #58 on: 13 March 2018, 10:36:05 »
For the sake of accuracy, from the heavy metal about page.

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I’m not going to disagree with the sales aspect. Hell, it’s questionable whether they’re selling enough of the actual game product evidenced by an eight month in any new material drought and what appears to be a refocusing of the line on the basics

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #59 on: 13 March 2018, 12:50:28 »
Hell, it’s questionable whether they’re selling enough of the actual game product evidenced by an eight month in any new material drought and what appears to be a refocusing of the line on the basics

The Introductory Box set was out of print, and they could not print more (costs have increased substantially since it was printed, and it was already a loss leader with 0 profit).  So they had to come out with new intro boxes.

This time they are building a proper line that can be sustainable though.

Also, CGL had a fair amount of funds last year tied up in Dragonfire, which has been selling well, and funding the production of these new battletech boxes. (CGL is a small company and can only afford a certain amount of capital to be tied up in production, so often has to make choices)
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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #60 on: 13 March 2018, 12:56:55 »
I don't think another official tool is going to happen as long as the free, open source ones are still a thing.  They do the job very well.  When MML can finally do the rest of the large craft, I can't see myself using HMA anymore.

Agreed. A new Battletech app can demand money but it has to offer a basis for more. Not only to print sheets but it has to work as a properly programmed management app for everything that involves paperwork. That would be of course tracking damage, heat etc. plus all the repair and maintenance operations, keeping and managing stats for my mechwarriors, infantry squads. I know that´s a lot of work, such an app would not only be an app it could be a game changer for Battletech. Lets be honest about it. More and more people stop playing Battletech because its compeletely overblown. The biggest mistake was focusing too much on Mecharmy battles (fluffwise) while the gamesystem doesn´t support this. Yet an app could help handling larger fights. Sure, there is AS, but when I leaf through the forums I get the feeling that people actually like CB more and love to dismember their mechs instead of the more "detached" experience in AS.

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #61 on: 13 March 2018, 13:12:54 »
The Introductory Box set was out of print, and they could not print more (costs have increased substantially since it was printed, and it was already a loss leader with 0 profit).  So they had to come out with new intro boxes.

This time they are building a proper line that can be sustainable though.

Also, CGL had a fair amount of funds last year tied up in Dragonfire, which has been selling well, and funding the production of these new battletech boxes. (CGL is a small company and can only afford a certain amount of capital to be tied up in production, so often has to make choices)

Yes, they had to do other stuff to float the company (and, by extension, franchise) because the stuff they had wasn't profitable enough. I don't fault them for that as I would have done the same.

I'm all for a sustainable model but the pivot wouldn't be occuring in the first place if the line wasn't in trouble.


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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #62 on: 13 March 2018, 14:45:06 »
I think you are correct in your assumption, but not the condition. CGL is not going to commission another official tool, period. It wouldn't matter if SSK and MML were shutdown voluntarily, I simply don't think the Devs feel that it is of value, which is a pity.

The HM series was developed in the time of intense competition, you virtually couldn't turn around without stumbling over a free mech or veh designer. Everything from simple spreadsheets with special print functions to complex UIs that were roughly equivalent to the HM series. This could happen again, by the Devs actually committing to the idea, and devoting resources to it, which they are clearly unwilling to do. If you are serious about crafting a digital tool, you don't ask the community that plays the game, you ask a software developer! The Devs are willing to accept maybe someones tool that's been fan generated but clearly not interested in making this an actual business decision and commitment.

The biggest issue facing the development of a digital tool is demand, BT is the tightwads game, to put it bluntly. You can play the game with bottletops, lego men, whatever, you just need the rules and map sheets. So, where does the issue lie here? Simple, it lies with an inability to read the market and an unwillingness to accept risk, namely that those notorious tightwads will once again pucker up even after all those resources were invested. Development of good, robust, usable and most importantly, unique digital tool set would likely bring a new player base into the game, an automated play system, where you still moved Battlemechs around the map sheets, under the view of a tablet camera, selected your attacks on the tablet and had all of those attacks resolved automatically would make the game far faster paced, without sacrificing granularity. Having two tablets on either side of the table, blutooth linked, would allow them to share data and automatically send information back and forth, meaning the only issue the player needed to think about is tactical moves and selecting attacks in a handy screen on the tablet. That would be an interesting time to be a fan!

If you think my diatribe is unfair, I will point you to the currently displayed Battlecorps site under the heading of fiction, a site that has been closed for some time. The lack of timeliness regarding the updates in the HM series, all the while it was advertised on this very website as the official tool for Battletech design! These are not petty points, they point directly to the idea that the Devs are unwilling or disinterested in moving into the digital space.


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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #63 on: 15 March 2018, 07:31:49 »
I think you are correct in your assumption, but not the condition. CGL is not going to commission another official tool, period. It wouldn't matter if SSK and MML were shutdown voluntarily, I simply don't think the Devs feel that it is of value, which is a pity.

The HM series was developed in the time of intense competition, you virtually couldn't turn around without stumbling over a free mech or veh designer. Everything from simple spreadsheets with special print functions to complex UIs that were roughly equivalent to the HM series. This could happen again, by the Devs actually committing to the idea, and devoting resources to it, which they are clearly unwilling to do. If you are serious about crafting a digital tool, you don't ask the community that plays the game, you ask a software developer! The Devs are willing to accept maybe someones tool that's been fan generated but clearly not interested in making this an actual business decision and commitment.

The biggest issue facing the development of a digital tool is demand, BT is the tightwads game, to put it bluntly. You can play the game with bottletops, lego men, whatever, you just need the rules and map sheets. So, where does the issue lie here? Simple, it lies with an inability to read the market and an unwillingness to accept risk, namely that those notorious tightwads will once again pucker up even after all those resources were invested. Development of good, robust, usable and most importantly, unique digital tool set would likely bring a new player base into the game, an automated play system, where you still moved Battlemechs around the map sheets, under the view of a tablet camera, selected your attacks on the tablet and had all of those attacks resolved automatically would make the game far faster paced, without sacrificing granularity. Having two tablets on either side of the table, blutooth linked, would allow them to share data and automatically send information back and forth, meaning the only issue the player needed to think about is tactical moves and selecting attacks in a handy screen on the tablet. That would be an interesting time to be a fan!

If you think my diatribe is unfair, I will point you to the currently displayed Battlecorps site under the heading of fiction, a site that has been closed for some time. The lack of timeliness regarding the updates in the HM series, all the while it was advertised on this very website as the official tool for Battletech design! These are not petty points, they point directly to the idea that the Devs are unwilling or disinterested in moving into the digital space.

Except they're looking for another product and have been for several years. Other than that...
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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #64 on: 16 March 2018, 19:28:06 »
Except they're looking for another product and have been for several years. Other than that...

Really? I'm sorry, but that is utter bull.

Looking for a new product? Who have they engaged? Because last time I checked, it's pretty damned easy to request quotes, get prices and make it happen. The Dev's aren't looking for a new product, they want a fan developed on over which they bear no liability. I'm sorry, but this claim fails both a common sense test and the business intelligence test. If the Devs thought the tool would be cost effective and profit generating, they wouldn't be looking, they would be buying.

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #65 on: 16 March 2018, 19:52:20 »
If the Devs thought the tool would be cost effective and profit generating, they wouldn't be looking, they would be buying.

That is an enormous assumption. And not one I think any BattleTech Line Dev has thought.
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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #66 on: 16 March 2018, 20:48:05 »
There's a difference between looking for a licensing agreement and looking to make a product from scratch. One is much cheaper than the other, but it requires the other party to be actively interested instead of just passively replying to RFPs.

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #67 on: 16 March 2018, 22:07:03 »
Which I think does raise a fair question.  Has Catalyst even put out a professional quality RFP?

A quick google search doesn't yield one but that doesn't mean they haven't.

What I know for sure is they haven't put forth any actual official requirements beyond "mostly finished" in the thread here and that isn't going to get a lot of response, especially when MegaMekLab already exists.

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #68 on: 16 March 2018, 22:17:45 »
That is an enormous assumption. And not one I think any BattleTech Line Dev has thought.


Its a conclusion drawn from facts and assumptions.

I've laid out my reasoning up thread, including the facts I've observed, the assumptions I've made, and the conclusions I've drawn.


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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #69 on: 16 March 2018, 22:21:35 »
Its a conclusion drawn from facts and assumptions.

I've laid out my reasoning up thread, including the facts I've observed, the assumptions I've made, and the conclusions I've drawn.

I think you misunderstood me. I was commenting on. Your assumptions of what the debs believe. That they believe it would make money. I don’t think the believe that at all, this aren’t willing to invest money in t.
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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #70 on: 16 March 2018, 22:29:19 »
If they can't pay anything for it, or not enough to be a fair offer for that case, then perhaps it would be best that they rescind the request until they can.

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #71 on: 16 March 2018, 22:44:02 »
I think you misunderstood me. I was commenting on. Your assumptions of what the debs believe. That they believe it would make money. I don’t think the believe that at all, this aren’t willing to invest money in t.

Lol, then it seems to be misunderstandings all round! My entire assumption was that the Devs believed that it wouldn't make money, hence why we don't have it.

We appear to be in complete agreement! :-)

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #72 on: 16 March 2018, 22:47:01 »
If they can't pay anything for it, or not enough to be a fair offer for that case, then perhaps it would be best that they rescind the request until they can.

What percentage of the people working on BattleTech do you think are volunteers and not paid?
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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #73 on: 16 March 2018, 22:49:10 »
Lol, then it seems to be misunderstandings all round! My entire assumption was that the Devs believed that it wouldn't make money, hence why we don't have it.

We appear to be in complete agreement! :-)

Agreed. :)
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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #74 on: 16 March 2018, 23:12:35 »
What percentage of the people working on BattleTech do you think are volunteers and not paid?

Too many obviously.

To expect that to extend to yet another developer team is frankly a bit insane when there are already so many free fan made editors out there.

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #75 on: 16 March 2018, 23:17:26 »
What would be a fair retainer for keeping something like SSW up to date? 

Just asking so when I hit the Powerball, I can get the check out the door quick.
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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #76 on: 17 March 2018, 00:02:58 »
Now that is a good question.

Depends on how many Java developers you hire for the project.  Going rate for an entry level JAVA programmer in my area is about $30k USD.

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #77 on: 17 March 2018, 01:21:02 »
Now that is a good question.

Depends on how many Java developers you hire for the project.  Going rate for an entry level JAVA programmer in my area is about $30k USD.

That's not the only way to get it though. To be honest I'd contract a development and support, rather than trying to develop it in-house. That way you leverage against an established development team and they are liable for fixing anything that's wrong with the app, rather than being the developer and being personally liable.

I'd also want a determination as to whether MicroSoft holds complete rights to all digital media for Battletech, or whether they are limited to digital entertainment. There is a decent argument to be made that this media is a game aid and thus not covered under the sale of that IP. That would likely cost even more than development of the app, however.

grimlock1

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #78 on: 17 March 2018, 02:02:43 »
That's not the only way to get it though. To be honest I'd contract a development and support, rather than trying to develop it in-house. That way you leverage against an established development team and they are liable for fixing anything that's wrong with the app, rather than being the developer and being personally liable.

I'd also want a determination as to whether MicroSoft holds complete rights to all digital media for Battletech, or whether they are limited to digital entertainment. There is a decent argument to be made that this media is a game aid and thus not covered under the sale of that IP. That would likely cost even more than development of the app, however.
Going up against Microsoft's lawyers?  Ugh...  Better hit the powerball AND marry up!
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monbvol

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #79 on: 17 March 2018, 02:19:27 »
As far as who to hire/how many to hire it also depends on the end goal.  Considering how far a handful of people got SSW and SAW in their spare time, just hiring a few people to finish SSW and SAW with the latest gear may not be a terrible option.

It would be nice to have an official clarification on the matter but the upside to TPTB making the call for new software does at least infer a couple things.

1: With how lawyer shy CGL is, for good reason, I don't imagine them making such a call if they were not 100% confident Microsoft does decide electronic game aids part of their license.

2: Microsoft doesn't want to do it themselves.

SCC

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #80 on: 17 March 2018, 03:05:28 »
The Introductory Box set was out of print, and they could not print more (costs have increased substantially since it was printed, and it was already a loss leader with 0 profit).  So they had to come out with new intro boxes.

This time they are building a proper line that can be sustainable though.

Also, CGL had a fair amount of funds last year tied up in Dragonfire, which has been selling well, and funding the production of these new battletech boxes. (CGL is a small company and can only afford a certain amount of capital to be tied up in production, so often has to make choices)
In addition to Dragonfire, there was also the constipation of IO finally coming out, I figure that getting that out took up a lot of resources.

Bison AIs

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #81 on: 14 May 2019, 11:45:50 »
Came across this thread looking for something else and noticed a couple people specifically interested in a tablet/digital record sheet.

Just in case it didn't appear appear on their radar, I thought I'd cross-link to this:
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=64175.msg1476101#msg1476101

Cheers!

Berzerker

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #82 on: 08 August 2019, 19:11:55 »
SSW moved to bit bucket, not sure yet if it is the same group or some one took it over.
https://github.com/Solaris-Skunk-Werks
https://github.com/Solaris-Skunk-Werks/solarisskunkwerks/releases
Last update was early August.

Flechs sheets listed above is pretty sweet too if everyone has a tablet/laptop.
« Last Edit: 08 August 2019, 19:21:35 by Berzerker »
Someone has to play Jade Falcon or it is just a bunch of wolf on wolf action.

Sartris

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #83 on: 08 August 2019, 19:22:22 »
Pretty sure someone took it over. Lostinspace moved on and skyhigh manages the MUL nos

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VhenRa

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #84 on: 09 August 2019, 05:15:47 »
There is a bunch of people I ran into on discord who are making a fork of it and restarting work on it. Not sure if any of them are around here.

They're behind that github.