Poll

Wolfhound vs. JagerMech

JM6-S JagerMech!
WLF-1 Wolfhound!
Draw / Too Close to Call.

Author Topic: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!  (Read 13666 times)

Zombyra

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FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« on: 29 January 2012, 01:38:13 »
From my continuing interest in a few match-ups that are between less than similar machines:

JM6-S JagerMech -bv/901- vs.
WLF-1 Wolfhound -bv/949-

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« Last Edit: 29 January 2012, 01:40:40 by Zombyra »

HavocTheWarDog

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #1 on: 29 January 2012, 01:46:28 »
Stay behind cover while closing, continually run and get in jagermechs back when possible and the wolfhound could win.(maybe)
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #2 on: 29 January 2012, 02:07:07 »
My money's on the Wolfhound.

The Jager's throw power is just too weak.  The Wolfhound can easily take a few hits as it closes- a minimum of 3 shots is required to pierce the arms and side torsos on it, and the Center Torso and legs won't be breached in anything less than 4 shots.  Meanwhile, 2 shots from the Wolfhound's Large Laser will go internal on every location but the Center Torso, while a single medium laser will penetrate the Jager's side torso rear locations.  Once that happens, there's a 50% chance on any successful critical to a side torso of hitting an ammo bin.
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Nikas_Zekeval

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #3 on: 29 January 2012, 02:14:59 »
Not to mention a single Large Laser hit will go internal on the arms on the first hit.  Neither mech has alot of crit padding, just about any hit beyond basic mech systems is a weapon, but three of those on a Jaggermech are ammo, and the side torsos are only padded by a single medium laser each.

The Wolfhound in comparison is about half the Jaggermech's size, and carries a quarter more of it's armor.

Note for back shot boosters, the Jaggermech can flip arms, so half his firepower can still reach you, albeit with a likely minimum range penalty.

Demos

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #4 on: 29 January 2012, 02:23:44 »
Wolfhound, hands down.

With 50% more spped you canclose quickly and have a battery of three ML vs. 2 ML and AC with minimum range. Also 20% more armor (but less internal). The higher THM should also help.
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Guitardian

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #5 on: 29 January 2012, 09:00:46 »
Wolfhound seems a far more capable contender for a 1-on-1 fight. A single Jagermech is just target practice for anything but the lightest, weakly armed and armored mechs. It is good at lance battles, as it has tougher friends to prevent others from bum rushing it without great cost, but 1-on-1 with nobody to stop him from getting to you without a threat, he'll get a couple of shots in and pray for a good crit, and then its just over. punch through anywhere with 2 or 3 hits, and wait on that ammo to explode, arm to fly off, etc. Mech's that cant beat the Jagermech 1-on-1 would be a better name for this thread: ummm...  yeah. They were never meant to go alone. Very quirky mech but I don't dislike them (ugly enough too, innit?)  I just know they were not meant to be used like this any more than an urbanmech is meant to go running around in the open plains.
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House Davie Merc

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #6 on: 29 January 2012, 11:14:40 »
Wolfhound .

The Jagermech has a fatal combination of slower speed,low armor,
and most of it's weapons have a minimum range .

In a team setting it can get to live long enough to contribute .
In a duel there's no "more important targets " to focus on .

I've seen Jagermechs get downright victomized quickly by light mechs
with less firepower then the Wolfhound .

mutantmagnet

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #7 on: 29 January 2012, 12:17:30 »
This op deserves more than a Vlad Tepes award.

LastChanceCav

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #8 on: 29 January 2012, 13:16:25 »
Wolfhound. Is it me or do these fight seem to be getting a little lopsided ...

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Orin J.

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #9 on: 29 January 2012, 13:23:31 »
a little lopsided? i've seen executions carried off more even-handedly.  #P
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Guitardian

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #10 on: 29 January 2012, 14:44:20 »
what's a vlad tepes award?
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mutantmagnet

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #11 on: 29 January 2012, 15:33:00 »
When a versus post pits a a superior force against an inferior one, and it is so unquestionably lopsided it can be construed as cruel and unusual.

I already handed it out in the Cicada/Targe thread. You were even the next post after I made my own.
« Last Edit: 29 January 2012, 19:17:12 by mutantmagnet »

willydstyle

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #12 on: 29 January 2012, 15:35:40 »
The wolfhound is faster, has more armor, similar forward-facing firepower (23 max damage on the WLF-1, versus 24 on the JM6-S), but the Jagermech has minimum range mods on its guns which are going to really, really disadvantage it when the fight closes, which it will, since it's horribly outmaneuvered.  The Jagermech not only equips the least weight-efficient weapons in the game, but then doubles up on them, and it shows. This fight isn't even close.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #13 on: 29 January 2012, 15:57:42 »
After thinking about it, the only Succession Wars era Heavy mech that I think would actually have a fight that would be likely to go either way against a Wolfhound is the Archer.  Everything else except for the Jagermech has the Hound beaten badly enough in firepower and/or armor that the Wolfhound would have to be extremely lucky to have a chance.  The Archer's weapon array and weapon placement means that once the Wolfhound gets within the LRM minimum range, the Archer's got a serious disadvantage, but any time it's able to get far enough away from the Wolfhound to effectively use its LRMs it can inflict serious pain.
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Guitardian

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #14 on: 29 January 2012, 17:06:36 »
I had a lot of oldtech fight night ideas but I never knew who's origional idea it was, didn't want to step on anyone's toes if it was their baby.

 There's been some really good matchups, and I ahven't been checking in much lately, but the last two were just ludicrous. The Targe thing, they aren't even in the same tech! sure give the Cicada ferro Fibrous too (he aint lacking for crits) and ER some of his stuff too and ask me again, but that was just silly. This one too, a close in brawler versus a standoff lance member, on a small restricted board? Gduh!

I wanted to propose these ones: Charger vs. Vulcan, Clint vs. Jagermech, Blackjack vs. Vindicator, Assassin vs. Jenner, Enforcer vs. Vindicator, Thud vs. Grasshopper, Trebuchet vs. Centurion... so many wierd combos to consider.. why these offbalanced ones?
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Zombyra

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #15 on: 29 January 2012, 17:57:20 »
I had a lot of oldtech fight night ideas but I never knew who's origional idea it was, didn't want to step on anyone's toes if it was their baby.

 There's been some really good matchups, and I ahven't been checking in much lately, but the last two were just ludicrous. The Targe thing, they aren't even in the same tech! sure give the Cicada ferro Fibrous too (he aint lacking for crits) and ER some of his stuff too and ask me again, but that was just silly. This one too, a close in brawler versus a standoff lance member, on a small restricted board? Gduh!

I wanted to propose these ones: Charger vs. Vulcan, Clint vs. Jagermech, Blackjack vs. Vindicator, Assassin vs. Jenner, Enforcer vs. Vindicator, Thud vs. Grasshopper, Trebuchet vs. Centurion... so many wierd combos to consider.. why these offbalanced ones?

I think the input of "What mech do you think would win?" Is the least informative and least interesting part of the discussion.  I don't mind, of course, if that's all people have to say, but in my mind it's barely worth noting.  And fights between mechs that are virtually equals--why even bother.

On the other hand, people's reasons why one or the other might have an advantage, of what the balance in odds are, what kind of role luck might play, what kind of role terrain might play, weapons choice, range, maneuverability, if it will be a short fight or a long fight; the choice of "what's most important" or "what won't make any difference at all" is far more germane to the discussion.

In my experience what's weird to the overall range of the Fight Night threads is how often strategies or factors that purportedly weigh heavily in one battle are ignored or even outright contradicted in subsequent threads.

Regards my specific choice in this case, I think I severely underestimated the appreciation people have for the Wolfhound, and the ire drawn by the Jager.  If I wanted a better discussion, I should have chosen a less well-loved opponent for the JM.
« Last Edit: 29 January 2012, 17:59:39 by Zombyra »

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #16 on: 29 January 2012, 18:52:16 »
It's not that the Wolfhound is so well loved, it's just that the Jager's so poorly built for dueling that it's got huge disadvantages that the Wolfhound, a very good duelist, can easily exploit.  The Wolfhound is 50% faster, carries more armor, and is equipped with weapons that have no minimum range or ammo.  Oh, and it's got an entire location (the left arm) that can be shot off with no effect on its firepower.
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Southern Coyote

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #17 on: 29 January 2012, 18:56:03 »
This is a true David vs. Goliath fight.  The JagerMech should be the clear winner by tonnage alone, but I've seen solo Wolfhounds drop much more powerful opponents than a JagerMech. 

mutantmagnet

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #18 on: 29 January 2012, 19:26:07 »
Regards my specific choice in this case, I think I severely underestimated the appreciation people have for the Wolfhound, and the ire drawn by the Jager.  If I wanted a better discussion, I should have chosen a less well-loved opponent for the JM.

What Vegas odds were you giving the Jaegermech? You would have been better off with the Rifleman.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #19 on: 29 January 2012, 20:03:12 »
This is a true David vs. Goliath fight.  The JagerMech should be the clear winner by tonnage alone, but I've seen solo Wolfhounds drop much more powerful opponents than a JagerMech.

Which is why tonnage alone is not an indicator of how well a mech will perform.
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willydstyle

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #20 on: 29 January 2012, 20:32:22 »
Which is why tonnage alone is not an indicator of how well a mech will perform.

Zing!

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #21 on: 30 January 2012, 08:56:00 »
The only chance that the JM has is if it can manage to get into a position to kick the lighter 'Mech.  Either that, or pray for a TAC.  Any other situation is an easy win for the WLF.....that is, unless it's actually one of those nasty JM variants in disguise.

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #22 on: 30 January 2012, 09:58:03 »
the fight in this case is slanted heavily towards the wolfhound,  I can see the Jager coming out on top thanks to the often forgotten about medium lasers in the Jagers torso, and some VERY lucky grouping on the autocannon shots; there are just to many variables to rely on for me to consider it too close to call though.
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Jim1701

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #23 on: 30 January 2012, 12:05:40 »
I initially voted for the Wolfhound but I really didn't think about the heat issues that this model has.  With only 10 SHS it can only fire its long OR short range weaponry without getting into serious heat problems.  The Wolfhound still has the easier task but I don't think it would be the cakewalk a lot of people are thinking. 

bakija

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #24 on: 30 January 2012, 12:18:23 »
I initially voted for the Wolfhound but I really didn't think about the heat issues that this model has.  With only 10 SHS it can only fire its long OR short range weaponry without getting into serious heat problems.  The Wolfhound still has the easier task but I don't think it would be the cakewalk a lot of people are thinking.

The 10 SHS on the Wolfhound are fine for what it is gonna do; it is either going to be firing the LL at middle/long ranges (4-15) while running for 0 net heat or it is going to be firing the 3xML at close range (1-3) while running for 1 net heat. If it wins initiative and gets a great shot (i.e. it gets to run behind its opponent) at close range, it can fire everything at once for 19 heat while also running to get there. On the follow up turn, it just runs away at -1 (?) move, sinks 8 heat, and is ready to go for the next turn.

If the Wolfhound spends the whole game standing still at R12 or so, the Jagermech has a chance. If the Wolfhound aggressively runs in and engages from close range, the Jagermech has no hope (well, other than the always possible "I accidentally blew up your gyro with a lucky AC2 crit..."). As the Wolfhound is significant faster than the Jagermech, the math does itself.

Kiesel

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #25 on: 30 January 2012, 13:45:32 »
Even ignoring the obvious advantages a 6/9 skirmisher is going to have in a 1v1 fight against a 4/6 fire support design that relies on a screening force to keep the range open, this fight wasn't even a good matchup BV wise.
48 BV may not sound like much, but it's still 5% of their BV, and the BV imbalance is in favor of the fast short range design.

Also look at where the jagermech is spending it's BV
460.2 on durability (383.5 before adding speed mods)
368.48 on firepower (329)
72.8 on physical attacks (65)

compared to the wolfhound
522.6 on durability (402)
373.5 on firepower (249)
52.5 on physical attacks. (35)

So realistically, the Jagermech is wasting 73 more BV on a physical attack capability of which it will get practically no use, perhaps 1/10 games optimistically. 
which is like paying the BV for a NARC launcher & an AMS in the same fight. (since no missile launchers are used by either party)

Essentially the effective BV is actually closer to 836 vs. the 933 of the wolfhound. (the wolfhound pays 17.25 for a rear firing laser which will do about as much good as the Jager's physical attacks)

Fear Factory

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #26 on: 31 January 2012, 04:32:31 »
Give the Jager some specialty ammo.
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Kiesel

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #27 on: 31 January 2012, 08:46:16 »
specialty ammo isn't going to do squat...  It is balanced to not be any more powerful than standard ammo.

willydstyle

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #28 on: 31 January 2012, 09:29:09 »
specialty ammo isn't going to do squat...  It is balanced to not be any more powerful than standard ammo.

Nah, some precision ammo would do a couple of nice things: lighten up those ammo bays, since the faster the JM runs out the better, and will also increase the JM's chance to do some fairly significant damage as the WLF closes, assuming the player gets a spot with decent LoS.

Fear Factory

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #29 on: 31 January 2012, 14:26:26 »
Nah, some precision ammo would do a couple of nice things: lighten up those ammo bays, since the faster the JM runs out the better, and will also increase the JM's chance to do some fairly significant damage as the WLF closes, assuming the player gets a spot with decent LoS.

Just unload.  It won't overheat.  When the bays are empty focus on physicals.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #30 on: 31 January 2012, 16:24:32 »
The fight should be over well before the Jagermech has a chance to unload everything, even if using Precision rounds.
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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #31 on: 31 January 2012, 16:40:41 »
The fight should be over well before the Jagermech has a chance to unload everything, even if using Precision rounds.
Thats a bit optomistic for the Wolfhound, this is not a 1 mapsheet game. I will give you that it might merely be low on ammo, but it starts out with few rounds to begin with using that ammunition.
« Last Edit: 31 January 2012, 16:57:23 by Minemech »

House Davie Merc

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #32 on: 31 January 2012, 17:15:53 »
Just unload.  It won't overheat.  When the bays are empty focus on physicals.
When the ammo on the Jagermech is empty it will no longer have a means to
respond to weapons fire past 9 hexes .

At that point unless the Wolfhound has lost it's Large Laser all it has to do is
WALK to keep out of range of the Jagermech's medium lasers on the turns it looses
initiative ,and WALK to 10 hexes away to fire it's Large Laser at medium range when it
wins initiative . The same thing is what makes the Phoenix Hawk so good against
mechs that can't reach past 9 hexes .

On the standard maps there are only a few places the Jagermech could hide to try to force
a close range fight , but all the Wolfhound has to do is run out away from these spots
and torso twist to fire the Large at ranges the Jagermech can't hit it . The hills just aren't
long enough to prevent the Wolfhound from running around them faster then the Jagermech
can limb them .

Once the Jagermech is out of ammo ,it's DEAD if it hasn't taken out the Wolfhounds Large Laser
or done something to severely effect it's mobility .
( Unless the person playing  the Wolfhound is either a newb or REALLY bad at this game)

If an undamaged  mech moving at 6/9 doesn't want to get caught by a 4/6 on the standard maps then
it won't be .

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #33 on: 31 January 2012, 17:21:24 »
Yeah... because we can also assume the JagerMech pilot is a n00b.

Thats a bit optomistic for the Wolfhound, this is not a 1 mapsheet game. I will give you that it might merely be low on ammo, but it starts out with few rounds to begin with using that ammunition.

Plus that's 14 damage without heat with a better range bracket.  Still more than the 8 the Wolfhound puts out plus you can gain special abilities with special ammo (chance for critical hit with armor piercing or a better chance to hit with precision), plus with one engine hit, that +5 heat per round is going to really hurt it.  The Wolfhound is going to want to close in fast and it can do that no problem.

I'm rooting for the JagerMech simply because I hate the Wolfhound.  It's a safety net for people who rarely play light 'Mechs.  Great 'Mech, but I would assume the n00b is in that thing because of how good it is.  Wolfhound:  The AWS-8Q of light 'Mechs.
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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #34 on: 31 January 2012, 17:35:57 »
When the ammo on the Jagermech is empty it will no longer have a means to
respond to weapons fire past 9 hexes .


The Jagermech can fire continuously for 20 rounds before the AC/5's run dry.  22 1/2 rounds for the AC/2's.  If the fight isn't over by then I'd shoot myself just to get it over with. 

House Davie Merc

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #35 on: 31 January 2012, 18:18:41 »
The Jagermech can fire continuously for 20 rounds before the AC/5's run dry.  22 1/2 rounds for the AC/2's.  If the fight isn't over by then I'd shoot myself just to get it over with.
The previous posters were talking about using precision ammo to both attempt to run out of ammo
before taking an ammo crit and to increase their chances of hitting the Wolfhound .
As per Total Warfare page 142 :   
 " A ton of precision ammo contains half as many shots as a ton of standard ammo (rounded down) .

That means that if it carried all precision ammo it would have 10 rounds before the AC/5s ran dry
and 11 rounds for the AC/2s .
The -2 to hit would be a great improvement for the Jagermech that would improve it's chances of inflicting damage
before the Wolfhound could close but it would also make it empty a lot quicker .

This also brings up the thought of chosing a YEAR for the versus contests from now on .

IMHO most of these  versus were in the spirit of earlier era mechs and a lower tech level .

Precision ammo wasn't developed until 3062 and by that time both of these mechs would be replaced by newer versions
in the vast majority of front line units .

willydstyle

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #36 on: 31 January 2012, 18:27:10 »
To be fair, I've done a few versus. posts that are later-era mechs, because I find them to be more interesting with generally fewer glaring flaws, but they don't get as much traction as the "old tech" versus posts.

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #37 on: 31 January 2012, 18:56:38 »
specialty ammunition wouldn't be found on the stock level 1 versions of the mechs. If the Jager had specialty ammo, the wolfhound would probably have better lasers, double heat sinks, and so on too as befits the time period when all that special ammo was introduced.
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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #38 on: 31 January 2012, 19:02:28 »
specialty ammunition wouldn't be found on the stock level 1 versions of the mechs. If the Jager had specialty ammo, the wolfhound would probably have better lasers, double heat sinks, and so on too as befits the time period when all that special ammo was introduced.

The "stock" mechs still exist in 3062, albeit most likely in garrisons rather than more well-equipped units, and I'm guessing that specialty ammo would be a cheap, but relatively effective upgrade that such a formation would be likely to get.

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #39 on: 31 January 2012, 19:31:31 »
The "stock" mechs still exist in 3062, albeit most likely in garrisons rather than more well-equipped units, and I'm guessing that specialty ammo would be a cheap, but relatively effective upgrade that such a formation would be likely to get.

Pretty much.  I like using special ammo in introtech level games and it adds some edge without breaking the game.  I wish the 1/2 ammo thing would go away though...  why don't missiles suffer the same fate?
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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #40 on: 31 January 2012, 19:45:15 »
Pretty much.  I like using special ammo in introtech level games and it adds some edge without breaking the game.  I wish the 1/2 ammo thing would go away though...  why don't missiles suffer the same fate?

I think Precision ammo is good enough that it's fair, especially for guns like an AC10 where one ton is slightly too few shots, and two tons is two many, you can pick up one ton regular and one ton specialty.

Armor Piercing, however, is just crap.  If it had the half-ammo *OR* the +1 to hit it might be useable, though still not really good.  As it is it's just worthless.

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #41 on: 31 January 2012, 23:36:05 »
Just unload.  It won't overheat.  When the bays are empty focus on physicals.

Given how basic the arms are, no hands and lower arm actuators, a punch for a Jagermech is at a plus 3 and are at half strength.  So you need an eight if neither mech moves, and only do three points per hit.  Kicks or charges are you only effective physicals, and hard to land given the relative speed differences between the Jager and a 'Hound.

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #42 on: 01 February 2012, 15:19:55 »
I think Precision ammo is good enough that it's fair, especially for guns like an AC10 where one ton is slightly too few shots, and two tons is two many, you can pick up one ton regular and one ton specialty.

Armor Piercing, however, is just crap.  If it had the half-ammo *OR* the +1 to hit it might be useable, though still not really good.  As it is it's just worthless.

I do agree with all of this, it would make it more "fair", but that's changing the parameters. I thought the parameters of these FIGHT NIGHT matchups were.. basic mech.. basic pilots... basic maps...basic fight. I Figured that would imply basic ammunition load too. If one has access to variations of choices (like if I'm fighting against a heat-heavy mech, take inferno rounds for my SRMs would be countered by saying "well I take double heat sinks for the extra heat" and so on).

 If one mech gets customized beyond the absolute standard (yes believe it or not, regular SRMs do exist! just like I have a hard time convincing some people that 1/1 pilots aren't really a common occurence to consider when evaluating a mech's performance - the failure of BV-style matchups versus scenario styled matchups)

... so.. if one gets customed, then the other would too and it no longer becomes a matchup of simple, stripped down basic mech designs, but of decision-making and cleverness in tricking your mech out best... which is not an adequate determination of a mech's capability. regular old autocannon rounds on the regular old jagermech, just like wolfhound doesnt get the double sinks that befit its energy weapon focus.

 The point is in the poll about this matchup was that it isn't a fair fight as introduced, which many most voters agreed. We can ask "what about an atlas versus a banshee?" and then the banshee guy can say "yes but its a banshee-S" and suddenly the matchup changes. Ammo load is just as much a game changer as variant model weapon changes, imbalanced pilots, inclusion of higher technology than the other guy, and other such variables.
« Last Edit: 01 February 2012, 15:25:02 by Guitardian »
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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #43 on: 01 February 2012, 15:23:36 »
The difference is that a JM-6S with specialty ammo is still a JM-6S.  If you were to perform any of the other changes you mentioned, then you're actually talking about a new variant.

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #44 on: 01 February 2012, 16:25:34 »
Pretty much.  I like using special ammo in introtech level games and it adds some edge without breaking the game.  I wish the 1/2 ammo thing would go away though...  why don't missiles suffer the same fate?

Some missile loads do, such as Thunder Augmented.
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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #45 on: 01 February 2012, 16:28:01 »
Some missile loads do, such as Thunder Augmented.

But you can stick to TW specialty ammo without having to worry about that.

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #46 on: 01 February 2012, 16:29:05 »
The Wolfhound wins.

I've DONE this fight before - several times - and the WLF-1 wins every time.

Hell, I've taken Commandos , stock models, against a JM6-S and won. Keep up your movement rate, circle around so the MLs can't target you, and Bob's your uncle.

The JM6-S is just too weak, thanks to those crippling AC/5s. The JM6-A, however, is a very worthwhile 'Mech - so much so that I wonder why the -S was ever even produced after it was discovered.

Oh, wait. Because the game devs were obsessed with the AC/5.

Hell, the Jagermech doesn't even have the excuse that it was one of the original combat book Mechs!

Gods, the AC/5 just pisses me off so much. It's so bad, so very bad, and yet on so many stock designs.

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #47 on: 01 February 2012, 16:35:24 »
Eh, I still think the AC/5 is better than the AC/2 in a mech fight, and it has two of those as well.

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #48 on: 01 February 2012, 16:35:34 »
But you can stick to TW specialty ammo without having to worry about that.

I'm just saying that some missile-loads do cut the number of salvos in half.
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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #49 on: 01 February 2012, 16:36:57 »
Ah, I read it as saying that T-aug breaks the game.  Honestly, I don't even know what they do :D

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #50 on: 01 February 2012, 16:59:43 »
In all honesty I prefer the JM6-A to the JM6-S.
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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #51 on: 01 February 2012, 17:09:38 »
As a member of the JM6 Hater club, I am contractually obligated to say the Wolfhound will win. Because it will.
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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #52 on: 07 April 2012, 07:09:03 »
I have taken a lance of WLF-1 up against a Dashi prime and guess what happened for loss of one Wolfhound the Dashi dropped dead due to the constant pecking of the Wolfhounds small fast and well armed the Wolfhounds ran and hit from the rear and as the Dashi is slow at moving its rear was shredded easily, oh the Wolfhound lose was due to lucky double six and took the head of the Wolfhound.

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #53 on: 09 April 2012, 22:59:26 »
The Wolfhound could eat the JagerMech for breakfast and be ready for another one by lunch time with little to no problem.
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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #54 on: 10 April 2012, 00:08:04 »
Wow, thread necromancy.
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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #55 on: 10 April 2012, 09:39:40 »
Would someone like to post a better balanced match, like a basic 3025 Locust or Stinger against the sad but rightly maligned Jaegermech?

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #56 on: 10 April 2012, 13:06:39 »
As a member of the JM6 Hater club, I am contractually obligated to say the Wolfhound will win. Because it will.

+1

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #57 on: 10 April 2012, 13:51:52 »
 Don't you guys think you are pushing it with the pro-Wolfhound and nasty anti-Jagermech remarks? They both have their uses, for example if a Stuka is headed towards my mobile HQ, I will take the Jagermech over 3 Wolfhounds.
« Last Edit: 10 April 2012, 14:07:11 by Minemech »

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #58 on: 10 April 2012, 21:24:36 »
Don't you guys think you are pushing it with the pro-Wolfhound and nasty anti-Jagermech remarks? They both have their uses, for example if a Stuka is headed towards my mobile HQ, I will take the Jagermech over 3 Wolfhounds.

But that's not what this thread is about.  This thread is about a 1 on 1 fight between a Wolfhound and a Jagermech.  And the Hound is just that much better at 1 on 1 fights than the Jager is.
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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #59 on: 10 April 2012, 21:54:53 »
But that's not what this thread is about.  This thread is about a 1 on 1 fight between a Wolfhound and a Jagermech.  And the Hound is just that much better at 1 on 1 fights than the Jager is.
When people call it one of the worst mechs ever, it becomes fair to add context. The post saying it would be a fair match to have the Jager go up against the Stinger may have been using hyperbole, but it fit in context by calling it one of the worst mechs in 3025. Mech v mech is not the only thing in Battletech afterall.
« Last Edit: 10 April 2012, 22:07:34 by Minemech »

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #60 on: 11 April 2012, 00:28:58 »
I'm well aware of that, but anything other than mech vs mech is outside the scope of this thread.
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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #61 on: 11 April 2012, 12:48:18 »
i cant believe these guys are still fighting.. i mean the jagers only got so much armor... this thread gotta be like LAST YEAR old...

my interpretation was standard maps (like 2 of them, like out of the box).. standard ammo.. standard versions of mechs.. standard pilots... etc.. b ut it always get s into this "well if i took precicion ammo" or ""if I had the "M' version wolverine i could blah bah bah... etc etc offshoots... in a BASIC... MUNCHKINLESS NON UPGRADED  MATCHUP... the wolfhound would kick its ass the end.
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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #62 on: 11 April 2012, 13:55:13 »
When people call it one of the worst mechs ever, it becomes fair to add context. The post saying it would be a fair match to have the Jager go up against the Stinger may have been using hyperbole, but it fit in context by calling it one of the worst mechs in 3025. Mech v mech is not the only thing in Battletech afterall.

Yes, the post was "hyperbole", in that I wouldn't really want to take a lone Stinger up against a JM, but I WOULD try it with a basic LCT-1V Locust (DID it in a multiplayer game, actually, and it wasn't exactly pretty for the JM).

The JM is a highly specialized AA design at best, in a role which I feel could be done much more effectively and cheaply by a vehicle instead of a 'Mech.  Both the cheaper and lighter RFL and BJ already cover the AA 'Mech niche almost as adequately, in my opinion, and are more than a match for the JM in almost any other role.

The JM has enough firepower at range to make it beneficial to take out as quickly as possible, and not even close to sufficient armor to weather the special attention that it will generate.  In short, if it's ever in anyone's weapons range, it's going to die quickly and horribly.  It's most appropriate place on the battlefield is....just off the edge of the actual battlefield, where it can do its job in at least reasonable safety.

The hilariously bad matchup as originally posted was a case of taking a fish out of water and pitting it against something that naturally eats fish.

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #63 on: 11 April 2012, 14:07:04 »
The hilariously bad matchup as originally posted was a case of taking a fish out of water and pitting it against something that naturally eats fish.
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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #64 on: 11 April 2012, 15:09:35 »
The JM is a highly specialized AA design at best, in a role which I feel could be done much more effectively and cheaply by a vehicle instead of a 'Mech.  Both the cheaper and lighter RFL and BJ already cover the AA 'Mech niche almost as adequately, in my opinion, and are more than a match for the JM in almost any other role.

Different experiences lead to different ideas. Thus I will have to disagree with your opinion, most particularly on the Blackjack. Pushing it any further would outright derail the thread.
« Last Edit: 11 April 2012, 15:11:46 by Minemech »

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #65 on: 11 April 2012, 17:23:53 »
Okay I will pose the situation differently as it seems some people have already caught on to the point: Jagermechs are pathetic attempts at trying to make autocannons viable which really only ever worked for thr "bubble o doom" effeft the AC/20 has... easy to single out... easy to crit... easy to beat the shit out of the mech that thinks its bigbad cuz of all its autocannons who do bitch damage.... cept the 10 and 20... but the ones with the 10 and 20... that would be Centurion, Hunchback, Enforcer, hatchet... which one is easiest to corner and blast it into little chunks cuz it wont be jumping anywhere?
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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #66 on: 04 July 2012, 18:39:40 »
Wolfhound obviously has the Jager at a disadvantage, but a kick from a Jager is nothing to sneeze at.   Course I wouldn't wanna be stuck in a Jager but I like the mech because it adds flavor to the universe and its a handy mech to have in a company (Insert go go Davion comments)  But after seeing how it looks on MWO, I'm warming up fast to playing the fire support role if I get to do it in bulky style
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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #67 on: 04 July 2012, 18:44:16 »
Requesting a mod lock this thread, as it's long past its expiration date.
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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #68 on: 05 July 2012, 08:19:30 »
Wolfhound obviously has the Jager at a disadvantage, but a kick from a Jager is nothing to sneeze at.   Course I wouldn't wanna be stuck in a Jager but I like the mech because it adds flavor to the universe and its a handy mech to have in a company (Insert go go Davion comments)  But after seeing how it looks on MWO, I'm warming up fast to playing the fire support role if I get to do it in bulky style

The real reason they made the Jagermech was so House Davion would have a Common Design that wasn't completely awesome.

Still I tend to like the Jagermech to some degree, just not in a duel.  With a Lance supporting it and covering some of its weaknesses, its a good fire support machine.
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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #69 on: 06 July 2012, 04:12:20 »
specialty ammunition wouldn't be found on the stock level 1 versions of the mechs. If the Jager had specialty ammo, the wolfhound would probably have better lasers, double heat sinks, and so on too as befits the time period when all that special ammo was introduced.

And the Jager would have two gauss rifles, dhs and 116 points of armour in that case, the JM6-DG.

Specialty ammo is not an upgrade to the mech. Same way infernos aren't.

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #70 on: 13 July 2012, 11:14:10 »
The Jager has 1(2) chance to hold range open or get off sniper shots......so claim a hill & park while the Hound has to cross open ground or back up each turn over a pancake map.
Maybe you get lucky & land enough shots to slow him down or open a whole for when the range closes.
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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #71 on: 13 July 2012, 11:20:59 »
specialty ammunition wouldn't be found on the stock level 1 versions of the mechs. If the Jager had specialty ammo, the wolfhound would probably have better lasers, double heat sinks, and so on too as befits the time period when all that special ammo was introduced.


The "stock" mechs still exist in 3062, albeit most likely in garrisons rather than more well-equipped units, and I'm guessing that specialty ammo would be a cheap, but relatively effective upgrade that such a formation would be likely to get.

And the Jager would have two gauss rifles, dhs and 116 points of armour in that case, the JM6-DG.

Specialty ammo is not an upgrade to the mech. Same way infernos aren't.

Pretty much.  I like using special ammo in introtech level games and it adds some edge without breaking the game.  I wish the 1/2 ammo thing would go away though...  why don't missiles suffer the same fate?

Interesting thought.
The OP isn't clarifying year 3025, just happens to be using TRO3025 mechs.
I'd agree, its not a BV mod & its not against he rules, and Precision ammo would likely tip this fight from Hound to Jager in a hurry IMHO.
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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #72 on: 13 July 2012, 18:23:22 »
I doubt that.  It'd get the Jaeger better odds of delivering a couple of hits, but like I said back when this thread first started, the Wolfhound can take the kind of hits that the Jaeger can deliver pretty well.
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