Author Topic: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M  (Read 7985 times)

YingJanshi

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Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« on: 25 December 2012, 02:13:37 »
   Ok, so assuming both have 3/4 pilots and on moderately buit up terrain, say an Open Terrain map and a Scattered Woods map; which would win in a duel: a Charger CGR-1A1 or a Locust LCT-1M?

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Alexander Knight

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #1 on: 25 December 2012, 02:40:06 »
The UrbanMech laughing at both of them.

martian

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #2 on: 25 December 2012, 02:40:44 »
   Ok, so assuming both have 3/4 pilots and on moderately buit up terrain, say an Open Terrain map and a Scattered Woods map; which would win in a duel: a Charger CGR-1A1 or a Locust LCT-1M?

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LordGraygem

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #3 on: 25 December 2012, 02:46:39 »
My two cents are on the Locust as well. It can use its speed advantage to almost literally run circles around the Charger, and the range offered by those LRMs is rather obscene when compared to the Charger's laughable collection of small lasers. The Locust can simply dance around at a constant 12-hex distance and spam missiles.

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #4 on: 25 December 2012, 02:48:05 »
   To be honest this came out of a discussion over the CGR-1A1 and the Stinger STG-3R. But I just thought it would be much more frustrating to the CGR pilot to face a 1M Locust.  >:D

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Sabelkatten

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #5 on: 25 December 2012, 03:53:43 »
The LRMs will most likely not be a major factor, even if the Locust manages to fire them in optimal position all the time they will only cause about 50 damage before they run out of ammo.

But since it can then plink with its ML forever that's a moot point. ::)

Frabby

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #6 on: 25 December 2012, 03:59:54 »
The Locust outranges the Charger and has the speed to easily dictate the engagement range even when losing initiative.

The Charger can only possibly win if the Locust makes a mistake. By contrast, the Locust can easily run the Charger down with no risk of return fire. This isn't a battle, it's an execution.
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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #7 on: 25 December 2012, 07:37:14 »
So you've been sent to the jungle to hunt the worlds deadliest little hornet, and they armed you with a Civil War era cap and ball pistol.  Yeah, you're kind of dead.

It might take a while but the Locust would win.  Though the pilot/player will need to be both patient and flawless.  As stated the LRMs won't do it alone most likely so you'll need the ML.  Once you get down to just the laser you have to manage the range very closely and NEVER attempt to go in close for the kill.  It will be death by a thousand paper cuts for the Charger.  If the Locust messes up and takes a bunch of SL hits or even worse lets the Charger get in its face, it'll get ugly.


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LordGraygem

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #8 on: 25 December 2012, 08:16:29 »
Frankly, if the Locust pilot is actually stupid enough to let the Charger get in his face, he'll have earned that posthumous Darwin Award. Sure, the weapons suck, but it's still an Assault 'Mech. Those punches and kicks aren't being made with Nerf-foam, heh.
« Last Edit: 25 December 2012, 08:20:00 by LordGraygem »

evilauthor

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #9 on: 25 December 2012, 12:24:04 »
The Charger only has Small Lasers right? The Locust ought to be able to get into 4 hexes of the Charger and still be immune to return fire (as long as it has initiative of course.

Frankly, I'd plink with the Medium Laser and save the LRMs for when the numbers are good.

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #10 on: 25 December 2012, 15:56:13 »
Change it to the Charger 1L & we would have a fight on our hands!!!
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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #11 on: 25 December 2012, 17:13:07 »
CGR-1A1 Charger the universal battlemech. Body of an assault, speed of a heavy, armour of a medium, firepower of a Light. Yeah, the Locust has it in the bag. On turns that it looses init, move out to LRM range, on turns it wins, dart in to 4 hexes. It can keep shooting, even if it isn't liable to hit much, without ever getting into even long range for the Chargers guns. If it ever takes armour damage, the Locust screwed up somewhere
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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #12 on: 25 December 2012, 19:02:18 »
The Locust has every advantage, except that it doesn't have the staying power. That ammo doesn't last long enough to kill the Charger. The Locust's LRMs can do a maximum overall damage of 150, likely about half that in reality. Chargers are world-class zombies; even though they don't have much armor, their power comes from melee. This means that as long as it has legs, a CT, and a head, it can still operate at peak performance. Also, if the Locust ever slips up and lets the Charger get close, even one time, it will die.
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massey

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #13 on: 25 December 2012, 19:22:29 »
Draw.  Charger pilot isn't an idiot, and moves so that you can't get sight unless you get within 7 or 8 hexes.  Waits.  Locust isn't an idiot, so doesn't get close.

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #14 on: 25 December 2012, 19:38:54 »
The Locust has every advantage, except that it doesn't have the staying power. That ammo doesn't last long enough to kill the Charger. The Locust's LRMs can do a maximum overall damage of 150, likely about half that in reality. Chargers are world-class zombies; even though they don't have much armor, their power comes from melee. This means that as long as it has legs, a CT, and a head, it can still operate at peak performance. Also, if the Locust ever slips up and lets the Charger get close, even one time, it will die.

This is why I suggest saving the LRMs only for when the TNs are good and rely on the laser for doing primary damage.

The Locust 1M does have a laser, yes? People here have been saying that it does.

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #15 on: 25 December 2012, 20:05:04 »
Yes, it has one ML, but then you're uncomfortably close to something which will spell certain doom for your tissue paper armor.
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Nightsky

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #16 on: 25 December 2012, 20:14:06 »
Yes, it has one ML, but then you're uncomfortably close to something which will spell certain doom for your tissue paper armor.

9 hex range for the Locust vs 3 for the Charger. As said above, just hang back if you lose initiative and slip into range when you win it. If the Charger ever makes an attack on the Locust at all, the Locust player is doing something wrong.

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #17 on: 25 December 2012, 21:50:32 »
Indeed.  The Charger in question is armed with a quintet of small lasers.  The Locust can stay at 4-9 hexes all day long, and it would be a very crowded map that doesn't have sightlines longer than 3 hexes.
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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #18 on: 25 December 2012, 22:04:46 »
I don’t know… I really think that somewhere along the line, the Charger is going to capitalize on a mistake.

Sure, if the Locust plays a textbook perfect game, I think it can do it. But, just one small, eensy-weensy little range mistake and *bam!* It’s Charga Time!

At least that's what I want to believe...  ;)

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #19 on: 25 December 2012, 22:05:41 »
Considering that the Locust can park between ranges 7 and 9, where any "mistake" is one of putting the wrong pilot in the cockpit more than a tactical error, I'm gonna say no. :P
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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #20 on: 25 December 2012, 22:24:11 »
Yep, with perfect pilots, it's the Locust's game. But both pilots and players are not perfect, no matter how good. Even the Charger's small lasers leave the Locust with ZERO margin for error, and unless you are playing with rolling maps, there are still four corners--get backed into one of them, and it's game over. Not to mention that the Locust can't even afford to fall down, so if there's pavement or rubble that greatly limits his options. In the end, it really could go either way, but it requires absolute perfection on the Locust's part.
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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #21 on: 25 December 2012, 22:32:49 »
Yep, with perfect pilots, it's the Locust's game. But both pilots and players are not perfect, no matter how good. Even the Charger's small lasers leave the Locust with ZERO margin for error

What are you talking about?  The Locust's margin of error is a whopping six hexes at the minimum, and 18 hexes if you're using the LRM.
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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #22 on: 25 December 2012, 22:45:03 »
There are ways for the charger to win but they are all dictated by fight location. If the charger can reduce the range to one or two hexes, it will win. That would require either blind canyons, heavy woods, or underwater.

Otherwise it is a very long game of cat and mouse that will be a death by a thousand papercuts.

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #23 on: 25 December 2012, 22:57:03 »
Folks, the OP gave you the terrain: 1 open map, 1 scattered woods.  If I'm in the charger, I'm sticking to the scattered woods. 

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #24 on: 25 December 2012, 23:53:33 »
I wonder how it would affect the fight if the Locust had some variety of LRM special munitions in its ammo bin, such as one of the many Thunder LRM types.

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #25 on: 26 December 2012, 01:00:27 »
Contrary to popular belief, the tactics of the Charger actually control this fight.  That is because we already know what the Locust must do.  He must stay at range.  He must not make a mistake.  He must use the death by a thousand paper cuts technique.  Any other plan results in him losing.

Now, because that plan is easy to identify, i.e., "do this and you win", most people understandably pick the Locust.  They think of it like a video game, where someone tells you to stand above the orange rock and fire up, because the boss can't hit you if you stand there and eventually you'll whittle him down and beat him.  "There is nothing the Charger can do as long as you do this."

Why yes, that's true.  But the Charger is not a video game boss, handicapped by a pre-arranged attack pattern.  That's why his tactics control the fight, because it's his job to keep you from successfully achieving your plan.  You must do XYZ.  He must keep you from doing XYZ.

The Charger can play either offensively, or defensively.  Or some combination thereof.  If he plays defensively, he will do as I said earlier, hiding amongst the woods so that the Locust must get within range to fire.  He will lay down behind a level 1 hill, sit in depth 2 water, or similar stall tactics until the Locust player either gets frustrated and closes or walks away from the table.  "Turn 452.  I sit in depth 2 water."  Using these for the whole fight results in a draw, using them for part of the fight may draw your opponent into an unfavorable position, and that is important.

Using the Charger in an offensive manner is different.  In this scenario the Charger makes use of the board edge as an ally.  He runs out into the middle of the map.  An average Battletech mapsheet is 15 hexes by 17 hexes.  If the Charger stands in the dead center of the map (assuming appropriate facing and no terrain), he can get into firing range against nearly any hex on the map in one movement.  The Locust may find himself trapped, may be forced to endure a round of fire from the Charger.  If that happens, it suddenly becomes a traditional Battletech game regarding which player is smarter about his movement.

The Locust can only back away so much.  Eventually (very quickly actually) he hits the board edge.  Then he has to make real decisions about movement.  Where to turn, which way to face when he ends his movement, how many hexes to end his movement away from the Charger, etc.  Now remember that while initiative will average out between the two sides, it will frequently run in streaks.  It is not uncommon for one side to win initiative two or three times in a row.  What the Charger is hoping for is to make his aggressive move (going to the center of the Locust's board) on the first round of what is hopefully a 2 or 3 turn initiative winning streak.  If that happens, he can trap the Locust and kill it. 

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #26 on: 26 December 2012, 01:02:48 »
Folks, the OP gave you the terrain: 1 open map, 1 scattered woods.  If I'm in the charger, I'm sticking to the scattered woods.

So... you're going to stand in a woods hex and let the Locust plink at you from beyond your effective range?

Can't lasers set woods on fire?

Hersh67

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #27 on: 26 December 2012, 01:12:03 »
I can use the woods to my advantage by cutting down his line of sight and attack vectors and (hopefully) draw him into making his last mistake. 

You do realize if the Charger had a pair of MLs and a SL, this topic would have never been started...

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #28 on: 26 December 2012, 03:01:24 »
I can use the woods to my advantage by cutting down his line of sight and attack vectors and (hopefully) draw him into making his last mistake. 

You do realize if the Charger had a pair of MLs and a SL, this topic would have never been started...

Since there was no timeline posited in the OP, why can't the Locust sit out of range and simply burn the forest down instead of rushing to engage?  It's not hard to do, just time consuming, and time is 100% on the Locust's side in this match.

(That said, I'd argue that a Charger who's hiding in depth 2 water for 452 turns has already lost.  An Assault 'Mech being completely taken out of every fight it could possibly be in for over an hour by the least armored 'Mech in the game has failed on numerous levels.)
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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #29 on: 26 December 2012, 05:13:16 »
The Charger CAN'T flip it's arms, the Locust does what it does best