TSEMP overpowered? (contains FM3145 spoilers)

[Yeti]

After looking at the rules as written in FM3145 I get the feeling that the TSEMP might be too strong.
It is the only weapon in the whole game that has absolutely 0 counter, there is no special armor or system that mitigates it's effect, and the only thing you need to do is hitting with a 15 hex range direct fire weapon (that can even be T-comped) and rolling 9+ (or even lower for some unit types) to shutdown any unit that is bigger than conventional infantry and smaller than a dropship.

So the best way to play seems to be to swarm the field the field with light vehicles or protemechs each mounting 1 TSEMP and 1 weapon. With this weapon around there is no need for battlemechs on the field.

Personally I would have given Blue Shield some defense against TSEMP since it is the most specialized defense system around so adding a little utility there would not hurt and two electromagnetic fields interacting with each other doesn't soudn too illogic, but sadly the TPTB decided otherwise.

[MarauderD]

The way I read it, TSEMP needs a roll to hit, then a roll to effect things. So two rolls to have any effect on a vehicle.

Is this strong? Sure.

It is mitigated by two things: one, it can't be fired every round. So after you fire it, you've got 2 rounds until you can fire it again.

Two: it shuts a mech down for the following turn. Is that a big deal? Sure. Is that the end of the game? No.

I'll be honest with you, I'm scared of all the new TSEMP on all the good mechs in the Capellan arsenal. But until I play out a bunch of Megamek games, I don't want to try to predict how strong it is.

Also of note: when hardened armor came out, I was terrified of it. Within a few weeks of playing out scenarios, I was totally cool with it. And that was before I found out yesterday the Re-Lasers completely dominate it!

[Weirdo]

Don't forget that any unit that fires a TSEMP automatically suffers interference the following turn. Unless you've got a lot of buddies nearby, it can be really hard to take advantage of a successful TSEMP shot.

[Yeti]

Interference isn't really a problem if i shoot a shutdown unit.
Simple tactic, run or jump adjacent to your target, shoot the tsemp, if the target goes shutdown, kick him (since it goes shutdown in the weapon attack phase, it is immobile in the physical attack phase, so you should hit).
It falls down (1 automatic pilot damage).
Next turn walk into its rear, even with interference a prone shutdown unit should be easy enough to hit, even if aiming for the head, then kick again.
Result: Additional pilot hits or head destruction at best or at least a gutted rear.
A unit might survive that maybe 1 time, 2 times if really lucky.

And that is not even counting the option of "stun-locking" units through repeated shutdowns each turn.

Also of note: when hardened armor came out, I was terrified of it. Within a few weeks of playing out scenarios, I was totally cool with it. And that was before I found out yesterday the Re-Lasers completely dominate it!

Hardened armor is a very good example about what i don't like about tsemp. Hardened armor has multiple counters (AP AC ammo, TC missiles and now RE lasers). TSEMP has none....

Anther thing i don't like about TSEMP is more of a meta reason:
It destroys fun for the player. Being unable to act is boring. Especially in a game like battletech where this might mean "Sorry your mech is shutdown, now sit around 30 minutes while everybody else does their turn".
I had the opinion that TPTB entered the "max 15 heat from outside sources" in Total Warfare to prevent stuff like "I am shutting down all units and then you can go take a coffee break while I have all the fun"

I am sorry if you think i am just your random overreacting to new stuff guy, normally i am not.
So if everybody complains in two months I will point to this thread and say "told you so".

[MarauderD]

I reserve the right to completely agree with you!

I just want the chance to play through some scenarios where I try to abuse TSEMP or vice versa. Since Megamek is my source for BT, I need to wait until its coded and ready. I've been told over on the MM forums that they are hard at work on that already.

The scary thought for me is how much Capellans like their Ravens. All the new medium Ravens have that TSEMP. So if there is one TSEMP per company, you can see the danger.

On the other hand, they have a light mech (Yingwhochoung?) which can either have a clan ERPPC or a TSEMP.  I can already envision someone using the TSEMP version, hitting, then having no effect. That would be so frustrating for the person trying to knock out the other mech!

*TSEMP does nothing, as you watch the other mech raise it's autocannon barrel and tap it against your windscreen...*

[Yeti]

It is not only the raven, the Kurita Phoenix hawk is also nice (bad tsemp roll, just jump away).
Then we get the nice Liao catapult with twin tsemp, so you can shoot 1 every round.
And the Jade Falcon Gyrfalcon variant with twin tsemp on a partial wing super jumper and still some clantech weapons for actually doing damage.

[Weirdo]

One balancing factor about the TSEMP: Have you seen the BV? It's noticeably higher than such powerful weapons as the Clan ER PPC, the LVSPL, both varieties of Heavy Large Laser...you want the power to shut down enemies at will, you gotta pay for it.

(As I recall, the rules for TSEMPS needed a lot of tweaking. I think earlier drafts would have given you a gun with a BV higher than some medium 'mechs...)

[Adgar76]

I agree with the OP that upon first reading how the TSEMP works I was quite impressed.
The interference penalty after shooting is a significant drawback, and I think you don't really want to mount TSEMP on an assault with a crapload of guns that will probably miss if the TSEMP fails to shutdown the target (which, statistically, is quite likely). I think it's way more scary on a fast platform with little extra weaponry, whose only job is to shut down a target for its friends to finish off. I expect that slow movers will be especially vulnerable to this tactic.
The BV cost is very high though, so if you balance games by BV the TSEMP might become a lot less attractive. I guess time will tell us if that cost is enough to limit its use.

And now, if you'll excuse me, i'll go buy myself a trinary or 2 of Gyrfalcon 4's.

[Yeti]

One balancing factor about the TSEMP: Have you seen the BV? It's noticeably higher than such powerful weapons as the Clan ER PPC, the LVSPL, both varieties of Heavy Large Laser...you want the power to shut down enemies at will, you gotta pay for it.

(As I recall, the rules for TSEMPS needed a lot of tweaking. I think earlier drafts would have given you a gun with a BV higher than some medium 'mechs...)

The problem here is, that IMO it has a much higher one-hit kill capability than any other weapon and high bv has never hindered stuff like clan PPCs.
But i think my really sore point is that for some reason TPTB decided that there should be no defense against it, which is especcially strange if you look at the new armor types which give you a counter to everything else in the game. If there would be a counter like "my opponent is using TSEMP, i bring armor type X or defense system y", i would be much happier.

[MadCapellan]

I'm pretty sure the defense is not to get hit.  That means fast Mediums and Lights will be great against forces with TSEMP.  It's the slow Assault 'Mech that just squats and shoots that needs to watch out, and as far as I'm concerned, the more weapons that discourage SitTech, the better.

[FedSunsBorn]

Who is to say that the TPTB aren't already coming up with a counter?  ^-^

But, yes, I do agree with you on the possibility of grief and being overpowered if TSEMP becomes very common on the battlefield. On the occasional mech, I would like it but facing an entire company of said mechs is another matter.... #P Guess that is why the BV is quite high so that is good anyway since people have to sacrifice things in order to use said TSEMP. Also, if the TSEMP fails....payback can be a real...well you know the saying.  O:-)

[Weirdo]

TSEMP has the exact same counter as TAG: Avoid the weapon or it's carrier, or shoot it until it can no longer point said weapon at you.

[Scotty]

I think it wise to remind that 9+ is only something like a 28% chance to shut a unit down.  That's on top of the to-hit roll, and 3:1 you're only likely to make your target pissed off, while suffering literally the same penalties as yourself at best.  It's entirely possible to leave yourself TSEMPed while your target is simply annoyed.

Not to mention, one turn shut down isn't enough to kill anything unless your pilots are entirely too good at what they do, or you mount enough firepower to kill a 'Mech in a turn or two anyway.  I'm guessing that if you use TSEMP, you don't have that firepower on that specific 'Mech, which has a to-hit penalty already just from firing the thing.

[mbear]

Conventional infantry are also totally immune to it. So sending in a large hovercraft/WiGE/VTOL loaded with heavily armed groundpounders might be a nice way of supporting your 'Mechs.

Another thing is that the range of the TSEMP is identical to an AC/10 or Large Laser, 15 hexes. So you can get some longer range weapons and have all sorts of fun. Gauss rifles, LRMs, and PPC's come to mind.

Oh, and there's always artillery.

[Yeti]

TSEMP has the exact same counter as TAG: Avoid the weapon or it's carrier, or shoot it until it can no longer point said weapon at you.

Except there is a counter to TAG/Artillery: Reactive Armor. So apparently some TPTB decided that "try not to get hit" was not enough....

I think it wise to remind that 9+ is only something like a 28% chance to shut a unit down.

numbers get much better for multiple hits in one round because of the way you get multiple rolls with a stacking bonus:
2 hits: 57% shutdown
3 hits: 82% shutdown
4 hits: 95% shutdown

As i said in the OP the best use for TSEMP is using a lot of them on cheap light vehicles or protomechs, something like a scorpion tank or saladin or some vtol. So you don't have to pay a lot of bv and still can field enough of them.
Mechwise i would go for the Phoenix Hawk L PXH-11K which is not that expensive (1564BV), has 3 hMG so i get a lot of tries for additional head hits if you are shutdown and if you are lucky i just jump away 5-6 hexes in some wood, so i am not that much in danger from getting hit.

[Alexander Knight]

"Okay, I shoot you with my TSEMP....and nuts, you're still active."

"I return fire with my PPC...and take 10 armor from your RT.  How much do you still have?"

"Umm....eep?"

[Martius]

"Okay, I shoot you with my TSEMP....and nuts, you're still active and I suffer some stiff penalties next round."

"I return fire with my PPC...and take 10 armor from your RT.  How much do you still have?"

"Umm....eep?"

Bolded added by me.

This penalties are, IMO, a major balancing factor.

You have to hit with a TSEMP, you have to roll to do stuff to your target but the penalties you suffer yourself are mandatory.

[Decoy]

All told, I'd probably take a Plasma rifle over TSemp. It just works better against more things.

[GreekFire]

Except there is a counter to TAG/Artillery: Reactive Armor. So apparently some TPTB decided that "try not to get hit" was not enough....

numbers get much better for multiple hits in one round because of the way you get multiple rolls with a stacking bonus:
2 hits: 57% shutdown
3 hits: 82% shutdown
4 hits: 95% shutdown

As i said in the OP the best use for TSEMP is using a lot of them on cheap light vehicles or protomechs, something like a scorpion tank or saladin or some vtol. So you don't have to pay a lot of bv and still can field enough of them.
Mechwise i would go for the Phoenix Hawk L PXH-11K which is not that expensive (1564BV), has 3 hMG so i get a lot of tries for additional head hits if you are shutdown and if you are lucky i just jump away 5-6 hexes in some wood, so i am not that much in danger from getting hit.

K, so lets say that you have 4 of those 1564 BV units in your force - enough to force a shutdown of a unit every turn, by your math. That's 6256 BV for a force with terrible long-ranged damage, no, terrible damage overall. Lemme roll up a random force in megamek, see what I get:
-OTL-5D Ostsol
-END-6S Enfield
-HUR-WO-R4M Huron Warrior
-AWS-9M Awesome

So: which unit do you focus-fire first with those TSEMPs? You've got one shutdown available. Or you can try to get all 4 'Mechs at once, your call. Or go for 2, I dunno. Problem is, while you're rolling to try to shut my 'Mechs down, they're dealing actual damage to you. So sure, you can jump in, try to kick my 'Mechs, all of that, but I'm not using zellbrigen. They're going to be supporting each other, and you can count on getting very hurt, very fast.

[Foxx Ital]

The TSEMP is scary...but scary don't win wars  8)

 I'll agree that the penalty to use it makes it almost questionable to use myself, add to that the BV of using it means i won't have to worry very much about it.

[Diablo48]

I am really not worried about the TSEMP.  You will have to drastically overcommit to using it if you want to get any kind of reliable benefit from the system between the clean misses and failures to shut the target down, and that will totally destroy your ability to do actual damage to take advantage of the shutdown unit between the lack of other weapons and the targeting penalties you stuff down your own throat.

As for the lack of a counter, who cares?  We went for years with no counter to Gauss Rifles beyond hoping they miss (or at least miss the head) so I do not see this as anything new.

[SCC]

This is peanuts compared to Tear Gas SRM's, roll of 8+? Vehicle gets crew stunned for the next 15 turns. Crew already stunned? That crew KILLED for the same amount of time

[Istal_Devalis]

numbers get much better for multiple hits in one round because of the way you get multiple rolls with a stacking bonus:
2 hits: 57% shutdown
3 hits: 82% shutdown
4 hits: 95% shutdown

That's also 4 TSEMP'S that could instead have been four Clan ERPPC hits.
Don't get me wrong, a forced shutdown is scary, but that could have been 60 damage too. And meanwhile your target's friends can engage you without having to worry about it while you're recharging the gun. And if you're balancing by BV? He's probably got more friends then you do.

[gooseman]

numbers get much better for multiple hits in one round because of the way you get multiple rolls with a stacking bonus:
2 hits: 57% shutdown
3 hits: 82% shutdown
4 hits: 95% shutdown

I don't have the book yet, explain this to me.

[SCC]

I don't have the book yet, explain this to me.

I think it's the chances of multiple TESMP attacks failing.

Reverse engineering his numbers a single TESMP attack has a roughly ~65% chance of failing, however if you make two attacks with TESMP the chance of two failure is 65% X 65% or roughly 42%, you get the idea

[gooseman]

I think it's the chances of multiple TESMP attacks failing.

Reverse engineering his numbers a single TESMP attack has a roughly ~65% chance of failing, however if you make two attacks with TESMP the chance of two failure is 65% X 65% or roughly 42%, you get the idea

Actually, if it's a 9 or better to shutdown the target, it's about a 28% chance of success. 1-(10/36)

If he's trying to calculate the odds of separate successful attacks, and there is no cumulative bonus for multiple attacks, the odds of 4 attacks shutting a mech down would be about 73%, that's why I was asking for rules clarification. (1-(10/36))^4

Yes, I remember my stats class.  ;)

[Firesprocket]

Mechwise i would go for the Phoenix Hawk L PXH-11K which is not that expensive (1564BV), has 3 hMG so i get a lot of tries for additional head hits if you are shutdown and if you are lucky i just jump away 5-6 hexes in some wood, so i am not that much in danger from getting hit.

1564 is a lot of BV for a 35 ton light mech.  In comparison, as mentioned elsewhere, you can get some decent heavy mechs for that BV.  For just a hair more I can get a Yao Lien (1586) or a Black Hawk KU C (right under 1600).  Right under it I can get a Phoenix Hawk 7K (1241) or Griffin 4R (1412) which both have Snubs and +4 modifiers when they jump their max.  So assuming your engaging at medium range, as most people's games do, with that TSEMP 3 out of the 4 mechs I mentioned are going to be at short range while you sit a medium.  The foil to the weapon is already out there, it's speed and/or stealth.  Time will tell if it is OP or not, but with the draw backs to the system, I think it adds enough into the games to make things interesting and not be overly detracting.  If anything it sounds like it might be to much BV if it has these other draw backs.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Actually, if it's a 9 or better to shutdown the target, it's about a 28% chance of success. 1-(10/36)

If he's trying to calculate the odds of separate successful attacks, and there is no cumulative bonus for multiple attacks, the odds of 4 attacks shutting a mech down would be about 73%, that's why I was asking for rules clarification. (1-(10/36))^4

Yes, I remember my stats class.  ;)

There is a cumulative, add +1 for each extra attack, to a max of +4.  They don't help the initial to-hit roll, obviously, only the effects roll after a hit.  And they only ad the modifier as they go (1st+0, 2nd+1, 3rd+2....) they don't all get +4 because there's 5 firing.

[Scotty]

Actually, if it's a 9 or better to shutdown the target, it's about a 28% chance of success. 1-(10/36)

If he's trying to calculate the odds of separate successful attacks, and there is no cumulative bonus for multiple attacks, the odds of 4 attacks shutting a mech down would be about 73%, that's why I was asking for rules clarification. (1-(10/36))^4

Yes, I remember my stats class.  ;)

No.  Every TSEMP that hits a target in a given turn adds a +1 bonus to any TSEMP effect rolls made after that hit.  In that way, two TSEMPs hitting a target would impart a 9+ check to see if a 'Mech shut down for the first, but only an 8+ for the second.  If three hit, the first is at 9+, the second at 8+, and the third at 7+.  Technically, it's a bonus to the roll, rather than a reduction of the target number, but that's really immaterial.

[gooseman]

Thanks, that's why I was asking about the rules, to see if there was a cumulative modifier.  O0