Author Topic: C-Bills, LF Batteries, Docking Collars, and Slipways - Musings (TLDR)  (Read 10523 times)

marcussmythe

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Yes, I'm trying to apply reason and economics to military procurement in the BT Universe.  I am aware that this is a fool's errand.

First question, do C-Bill costs matter?
We assume that C-Bill costs mean -something-, or they wouldn't put prices on components.  So military production in the BTech 'Verse cannot be purely limited to 'buy everything that every construction line can produce' - if this is the case, C-Bills don't matter, all that matters are production lines (and in the medium to long term, those 'excess' C Bills would go to building and expanding production lines, until there is no longer a production line constraint).

Now, C-Bill costs may not be the only factor.  In the short term, there are only so many shipyards, and you cannot merely wish them into existence - each shipyard represents time and c-bills and trained people building shipyards and not doing other things while they are building them (however note that whatever the cost of the shipyard, it is in a way 'baked into' the actual ship costs - the cost of building/maintaining infrastructure to build the thing is a part of the cost of the thing)

Further, for Warships/Jumpships specifically, it may be the case that in the short term, all the C-Bills in Comstar wont buy you people able to design and build compact cores.  In the medium to long term, once a thing is known to be doable, and a general idea of how to do it, being the second (or tenth) nation to figure it out is far, far cheaper than being the first - and that is not counting intelligence work, turncoats with technical data, etc.

Based on the above, some observations:

1.)  Capital Ship costs do not scale linearly with combat power.  All other things being equal, something like Leviathan is more than a match for the same C-Bill costs of lighter warships in a stand up fight.

2.)  Capital Ship costs inflate VERY VERY RAPIDLY as a result of adding docking collars, with the increase in cost based on the underlying cost of the K-F Drive.  Adding a docking collar to a Leviathan costs a lot more than adding a docking collar to a Fox.

3.)  Capital Ship costs also inflate from K-F Batteries, though the impact is much more flat - the KF-Battery on a corvette may nearly double her cost, while the KF-Battery on a major combatant represents a much smaller percentage of her cost.

4.)  Combat Dropship costs are incredibly high, relative to combat power, when compared to warships.

5.)  Fighter Carriage may be a false economy.  While fighters are quite inexpensive for their combat power by comparison to combat dropships or warships, their support cost (fuel, munitions, care and feeding) are relatively higher than a warship - design a large fleet carrier and then figure out how much space you are dedicating to fuel alone, issues with sufficient bay doors to handle that fighter swarm in a reasonable period of time.  Some of this can be ameliorated by dispersing your fighter assets to dropships - but see points 2 and 4 above.

If we assume C-Bills matter, and that a given great power anticipates its mission will include combat with a peer opponent (so the SLN doesn't enter here - their entire design philosophy indicates that they have no peer opponents), and that the ability to defeat that peer opponent in combat is a pressing national interest, then:

1.)  Build big.  Build as big as your yards can handle.  The big mean units will form the core of your fleet, and there is NOTHING more expensive than a second-best navy.

2.)  Small units should be built only when they fill a role big units cannot.  One role is sheer coverage - if 3 Corvettes cost as much as a BB, yet cannot stand up to a BB in combat - those same 3 Corvettes can be in 3 places at once, whereas the BB can be in only one... and even a 'mere' corvette will be able to stand off an invasion force supported by far more than its cost in combat dropships.

3.)  LF Batteries will depend on the role of the vessel.  The are a relatively small cost on a BB, and represent a hugely expanded capability.  That same expanded capability may increase by 50% or more the cost of a Corvette - so you have to weigh the pros and cons of having 3 corvettes that can only single jump, vs 2 with a 100% greater range.  Mileage may vary.  Even so, assuming that our BB's have LF Batteries, we may have to accept the cost of putting them on the whole navy - or else we get a 'homogeneous fleet speed' problem, Succession Wars flavor.

Dropcollars are a problem.  Warships generally rely on Droppers for work as colliers, for mission tailoring, and for dropping forces into combat.  But Drop Collars do insane things to the cost of a warship, and that is before you pay for the PWS that one is carrying on those collars.  So we maybe eschew warship carriage of PWS, and use Jump Ships to bring the PWS along with the warfleet... but then the fleet isn't using its KF-Batteries, and has a large, vulnerable Jumpship component that it relies on to deliver additional, C-Bill inefficient, combat power. (due to cost multipliers for dropships).

Maybe we eschew PWS and Combat Droppers generally, as well as eschewing docking collars on warships.  Use the C-Bills saved from those docking collars and PWS to simply buy more warships.  Fleet Supply/Collier work can be provided by Cargo 'Warships', which can keep up with the main force, and far better defend themselves when necessary than the same cost of Jumpers and Cargo Droppers.  For offensive operations, a small number of purpose built 'assault warships', which either accept the (heavy) cost of docking collars and Military Transport Dropships, or which focus on using space-dropped mechs backed up by local aerospace superiority to secure a beachhead, and then large cargo support craft to carry down the ground forces, might be sufficient.  In the alternate, as jumpships have the same strategic mobility as even an LF-Equipped Warship, we could use standard jumpships carrying military transport dropships to carry our planetary invasion force.  Though now that we've gone down the Lithium-Fusion Rabbit Hole, I like the idea of being able to 'threaten' any world within two jumps at a (strategic) moments notice, rather than one - both offensively and defensively, squaring your threatened area seems to me to be worth the increased cost.

Summary:  In light of cost constraints, and assuming that CBills are a meaningful constraint, propose that a clean sheet Battletech Verse navy for a power concerned with fighting peer opponents would consist of:

1.)  Battleships, as large as the slipways can handle, with intent to enlarge those slipways.  Desired thrust, armament, and cargo capacity is a separate discussion, dependent on the threat environment.

2.)  Corvettes, for situations that do not demand Battleships.  Classes between the two may also be considered as necessary to fill specific roles, as such roles are envisioned.

3.)  Compact Core Fleet Colliers, with full KF Support, large cargo stowage, and sufficient cargo shuttles to move the supplies to the warships.  In the alternate, it may be appropriate to move the cargo storage from the Colliers onto the battleships and corvettes - building such vessels larger to incorporate all the supplies necessary for expected deployments.  Self Defense/Anti Fighter Armament.

4.)  Compact Core Planetary Assault Ships:  Mech Drop Bays for a beachhead, 'Dropshuttles' for bringing Mechs to the surface once beachheads are established, self defense armament.  Possibly bombardment weaponry and organic fighter support, or those roles may be left to the fleet vessels.






Tai Dai Cultist

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Interesting thought exercise.  A point of curiosity I have is about your premise... are you basing this on the game and construction rules in SO/TM, or considering them ephemeral meta concerns?  I'd honestly consider them more of the latter.. remember that aside from the Lev III and maybe a handful of others, WarShips were built using now-obsolete construction rules and before "modern" rules like bracketing and bearings only missile launches.  Given the track record for Aero rules of throwing it out entirely and starting from scratch (repeatedly)with each new version of rules, even those modern WarShips are going to be relics under whatever the next rule-set is, potentially reliant on rules concepts that don't carry over and potentially devoid of whatever is the newly important facet of space combat under the new rules.

Minemech

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 I am going to say it, the Fox is an obese Tramp--even if it has a lower mass.
« Last Edit: 18 April 2018, 10:39:38 by Minemech »

marcussmythe

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Im assuming the rules represent the underlying reality, that C-Bill costs matter, and that while ephemra no doubt exist (and I addressed some of these), those Ephemra are just that, ephemeral.  We know yards can be built.  We know that anything the a clan can do on 25 Million People and the Power of Plot, a society of many, many billions can probably do eventually.  We assume that CBills accurately reflect costs.  This is a thought exercise on ‘what is the right answer, or at least not a clearly wrong answer, under the physics of the setting, for a clean sheet design with a major power defining its desired situation.  Of course TPTB can change all of that again any time they want, they get to do that - but until Word of Clans 3.0, the Plottining turns out to be the Niops older brother that merged with technology and they are sending Borg Cubes to Terra, what we have is what we have.

Take as given that theres always going to he a lot of daylight between ‘what we want’ and ‘what we can make happen’, but I think there is a lot of use in defining the best solution in a general case, and then devisting from it out of respect to circumstance.

As an example, take the FS circa 3145.  They dont have major shipyards, though they certainly could have had they made it a priority between the Jyhad and the current era.  If Im taking over the FS in 3145, Im building everything I can on every production line thats open, not planning a pie in the sky navy - this likely means in naval terms every combat dropper I can get in production RIGHT NOW, and retooling for better designed examples only as necessary.  Ill cart em around with civilian jumpers, hanging off those jumpers at nodal jump-points, possibly with a second (or third!) ring of jumpers spread out, to command corcuit them to whatever system is screaming thay theyve got a hostile force inbound.  Even if I cant catch the dropships before they hit planet, I can hope to catch the jumpships that brought them recharging, and deny that transportation resource to my opponents.

The 3145 FS manifestly does -not- have the physical hardware to do whats outlined above.  But an unengaged power with the Rashalhague Dominion on its doorstep, a burbling unknown of the Fortress on its other border, the chaos of the FWL to the ‘south’, and all the horrors of maybe-other-clans to the galactic north?  If I were the LC, I might have started the above program ASAP after the Jyhad, or at the worst after the Fortress Republic went up.  Sure, whatever yards they had were no doubt wrecked by the Jyhad, but what can be built once will be built easier and better the second time  / and the LC is defined as ‘more money than sense’.  Theyd probably put the new docks over Hesperus, because you can never have too many eggs in one basket.   The DC might as well, if they werent focused on wrecking the FS and assuming that the Dominion and the Nova Cats will never ever ever attack them.  The CC doesnt need a warship navy to acheive their current goals, and are likely spending every dime to eat just as much FS territory as possible before their offensive finally runs out of steam and they have to stop for breath.

Edit:  NVM.  Not the LC.  Their also 'on the verge of collapse'.   ::)  Maybe the CC, DC, or Clans.  Their allowed to have nice things.
« Last Edit: 18 April 2018, 11:17:44 by marcussmythe »

Alsadius

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With the usual caveats about FASAnomics being a fool's errand, I totally agree. I've been known to day that the most valuable commodity in the BT universe is the docking collar, because of how rare jump capable ships are and what the collars do to their costs.

maxcarrion

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1 – If combat ships scaled linearly with combat power why would you ever build a big one?  After all it can only be in one place.  While one 2.4million ton battleship can defeat 4 600KT cruisers in a standup fight it cannot defend 4 worlds from raids by those cruisers.  Similarly when 1 battleship goes to dry dock for maintenance it leaves a much bigger hole in your navy, when 1 battleship has its drive sabotaged by 1 infiltrator it takes away much more combat power from you than if that infiltrator hits a cruiser.  Battleships exist to be financially efficient main battle units but there is so much more to a Navy than financially efficient main battle units.
2 – Even small warships are a massive investment.  You do not want a huge battleship chasing smugglers or busting pirates when a cruiser will do.  Corvettes might not have what it takes as they are bottom of the barrel when it comes to combat scaling.  3 200KT corvettes are going to have a bad time when a 600kt cruiser shows up
3 – Absolutely, LF batteries can be role based rather than homogenous or excluded.  It might be that you have fast response/assault battlegroups with KF and slower, cheaper elements without. 
Drop collars are indeed incredibly expensive on warships.  I would generally say that Jumpships were a more financially viable alternative for bulk movement.
I’ve played around with these ideas quite a bit and there aren’t many hard and fast rules but the AU Navy I ended up with had something like
Battle groups – Largest battleships possible – deployed for major naval engagements, defending important worlds – built for naval battle – some with LF, some without depending on their response speed/cost assignment – no/few drop collars
Patrol groups – mid weight cruisers (~500KT) usually operating in pairs (ships rarely more than 1 jump apart).  Broad capabilities, some drop/ASF/ground capabilities – includes rapid response group (LF) as well as normal patrol
Recon arm – Corvettes operating as naval eyes/ears – some ASF/Small craft capacity, no drop collars – larger command/communications/cargo ships to support the fleet (e.g. 1 cruiser + 4 corvettes spread out with each corvette within a couple of jumps of the command ship)
Marines – No expense spared assault units – specializing in beachheads, assault landings and hostile environment work.  Fast Warships with LF batteries and drop collars able to penetrate hostile space and land troops quickly and decisively, Significant integrated ASF/small craft/dropship support – focus on eliminating orbital defenses and getting in, securing objectives and getting out.
Army – mostly Jumpships and heavy dropships with some integrated fighter support (carrier droppers).  Cost effective large force once orbital defenses are breached – no warships
Support – Support elements are mostly Jumpships + cargo dropships with minimal weaponry/ASF these will resupply the warships/ground forces but will rarely if ever stray into an active combat zone.

Minemech

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 An interesting case study comes from the Impavido, which is faster than the ship it was designed to hunt, and much better armed. It may have less armor, but the nature of space combat makes that less of an issue. Its true weakness is its bad electric system (Lack f DHS). It needs better PD, but it is remarkably upgrade friendly.

 The Overlord A-3 had to be introduced to make the Fox seem good, but frankly a Starlord could carry the same dropships to much the same effect. Most dropships that would be threatened by a Fox could simply avoid it as it accelerates no faster than them. Had the Fox been a 4/6, dynamics would be quite different. As it is, it is an overcost Jolly Roger, with some cargo capacity and better weaponry than jolly rogers normally carry--ones capable of orbital bombardment.
 
« Last Edit: 19 April 2018, 08:34:26 by Minemech »

marcussmythe

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This is wandering into a proper thrust rating/armament conversation, one I'm happy to have. 

Generally my theory is faster plus more range means you probably win.  If you can't be faster, you definitely need more fire at range.  But once the slow units are maximized for ranged fire, the faster unit is in trouble... so it may as well drop E range guns for L range NAC batteries and attempt to close.

There is ALWAYS pressure to go faster, as the faster force decides whether or not there is an engagement - and so may choose to engage only on favorable terms, barring 'must defend' targets (though its a rare 'must defend' target that is worth losing your line of battle over if you still fail to defend it).

However, there is a practical limit for warships at around 5/8, and even 5/8 is sacrificing a LOT of SI (and thus Armor) and firepower for that privilege.  A 3/5 can outgun a pure Extended ranged focused 5/8 at extended range, while at the same time being able to overmatch a shorter ranged 5/8 if it closes.  Possible roles exist for 5/8 thrust vessels, but engaging peer opponents on equal terms is not one of those roles.  I waffle between 3/5 and 4/6 for the heavy capital classes.

Further - Extended range weapons are often a trap in duels or small scenarios, because there is not enough massed fire to be decisive before the range is closed.  "Attack Effectively First".  However, as the numbers grow, the ability of long ranged fire to be decisive grows - once a force can kill at least one significant enemy warship in a single round of fire, the opportunity exists for decisive engagement before the range is closed.  The McKenna that looks so underarmored and strangely armed in a 1v1 makes rather a lot more sense in a 10v10, espc if you assume that buzzsaws of fighters and assault dropships increase the cost of closing to NAC range...

(edited because I should not post from my phone)

« Last Edit: 19 April 2018, 09:43:23 by marcussmythe »

Minemech

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 The problem with that argument is that navies tend to be more mixed. The Zechetinu has a 5/8 movement curve because it allows it to perform its role well. The Thera has a 3/5 curve because that is all it needs for its role. The Impavido has a 5/8 curve and it suits it well, though it really needs double heat sinks.

 If you look at the Fox as a transport, 3/5 is a more than adequate thrust. Otherwise, it has popguns in a naval engagement against most ships that can overtake it. It needs those Overlord A-3s, which weaken its ability to act as a fleet transport, though they could be used to screen for an invasion fleet. Block II Foxes and Impavidos would have been a cool addition.

marcussmythe

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A ship definitely needs to be fast enough to fit its role, and any speed beyond that is a (very expensive) trap.

At the same time, homogenous fleet speeds are a thing for a reason.  A fleet is as fast as its slowest member, whether that is tactical or strategic.  Putting a Zec in a 3/5 battleforce is a waste of a good Zec.  Putting a LF Battery McKenna with a squadron of Texas Class BBs wastes the LF Battery on the McKenna.

So.. to step back a second.  The role of your primary combatant is to defeat enemy primary combatants so as to establish control over a volume of space.  At 2/3, it can never fleet, but will (if your whole fleet is together, and assuming you and your opponent are peers) have a firepower advantage, though it may be a bit light on armor and weapons (SI being what it is). 

3/5 seems to be the general default, and it makes sense... at 3/5, youve got reasonably equal mass fractions between offense, defense, and guns.  Youll need heavy long range fire, as well as even heavier close range fire, but you can do both, your 3/5.

4/6 I can see an argument for.  If your battle line is 4/6, you can decline engagement freely against the 3/5 forces, force engagement equally well, and still maintain a substantial weight of fire.  Id probably want to arm them with primarily extended range weapons, because they can hold the range open against most foes, and carry enough weight of fire to likley be decisive against a 5/8 line before it can close. 

I cant see 5/8 outside specialist applications.  If you load on short range guns, your forced to use your speed to close, and may well still be out-shot at close range.  Extended range weapons will leave you tragically outgunned against a 3/5 fleet - you would need a very large local weight advantage to overcome individual unit inferiority.  For a raiding navy that never intends to stand to battle against an opposing line, 5/8 with NPPCs on cruisers and lighter might be a thing.

My personal 'taste' suggests a 4/6 fast battleline with NPPCs, possibly backed up by some L Bracket NACs.  Another option is NPPCs with a backup battery heavy capital missiles with shallow bays, flushed early to achieve advantage that they can then capitalize on, or to inflict damage and allow a disengagement if they have no other options.

Theorycrafting...


Korzon77

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4/6 is also good for lighter, picket ships that dont' want to risk closing into NAC range--or use their fighters to engage, like the Samarkands.   But this also depends on how many ships you have-- the Fleets of the 3050+ era, hardly ever rise to the level of a single SLDF squadron, much less a fleet, which makes a balanced fleet design far harder to come up with.

On Collars-- a 1.5 million ton ship, 3/5 armor but no weapons, fighters or other equipment save for an LF batter, by my spreadsheet costs about 13.73 billion.

12 drop collars bring the price up to 42.6 billion. 30 Drop collars, increases it to an incredible: 85.92 billion. Now, if those are accurate (not certain about erratta and whether or not it was incorporated into this spreadhseet), 12 drop collars means that you're paying for 3 ships instead of one, and 30 dropcollars means that you're now able to afford 6 and change shpis for the cost of your behemoth.

BUT....  There are three things that might change this equation.

1.  You'll have to leave at least some warships behind to protect your jumpships. Even a single enemy dropship can kill your jumpers, effectively rendering however many dropships you brought useless. So some of those savings are not apparent.  I'm also assuming that if we're affording multiple battleships, the rules about killing jumpships, at least those engaging in combat are gone.
2. There are warships in game that have been in service for centuries.  The cost of a thirty collar warship goes down (effectively) every year you keep it in service. 

3. The biggie--how many construction bays do you have?  The Star League built lots of zero collar ships, because they were a huge fleet and could afford to do that--and the economies of scale built up to the point where it made economic sense. But if the Federated Suns can only build say, 3 cruiser sized ships at any given time--well, why not add on all the bells and whistles?


2. 

marcussmythe

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Whether the FS in your example adds bells and whistles depends on the size of its naval construction budget compared to its number of slipways, along with any number of intangibles (notably - construction costs vs support costs)

Whats the operating cost per year of an 18B no-collars 180kt Capship vs 18B of Combat Droppers/PWS?  There may be economies in construction for warships that dont pan out in their year-to-year cost, making the PWS navy more affordable than it looks initially)

That said, shipyards have some cost less than infinite, and that cost is presumed to be amortized across their shipbuilding - thus in some way the walk away price of that BB includes the cost of building and operating the yard it came from.  Over time, a state that wanted a navy and had a consistent budget would add yard capacity up to its steady-state building and replacement rate, so the ‘what if I can only build one or three or whatever’ is a short term problem, and a product of lack of preparation.  (That being said, assuming that the current peace is eternal and not just lowering armament levels, but destroying the infrastructure that you need to rearm in the future, is hardly a thing isolated to the inner sphere.  We are here in a condition exasperated by TPTB wanting warships out of the way to allow their game to focus on stompy robots - a reasonable buisness decision, but one that creates *interesting* in universe choices.)

Korzon77

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That's a good point--i don't hink the rules add any extra expense for maintaining large numbers of jump collars, which makes it a far better investment than say, if each collar added a substantial price.

marcussmythe

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Where does it discuss month or yearly support costs?  Im away from book...

Alsadius

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Historically, the big reason for bigger ships is that they can do things smaller ships can't match. You can armour a battleship against battleship shells, but you can't do that for a destroyer and still have a functional ship, because of the square-cube rule. Likewise with modern navies - a functional carrier needs to be a certain size, so you build them that size. But with the technology of 1800, bigger wasn't much better(and could even get worse as it lost the ability to carry sufficient canvas for its size), so combatant sizes varied much less. Ditto the galley era, and for similar reasons.

If we want bigger to be better in battletech, two obvious approaches come to mind. Either you emulate the battleship era and make capital armour shrug off small hits(with the meaning of "small" varying by ship size), or you make big weapons much more efficient than small ones(either in cost terms or in raw stats). You can also combine these if you like. Right now it does neither, nd in many ways the optimal way to rank ship effectiveness is by RL design era, so the ecosystem is a mess.

marcussmythe

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I know that 'We dont change published sheets ever for anything ever no really not ever'.

However, this might just be a case where a rewrite pass through everything designed before StratOps is called for.  Though Jellicoe's apologestics for the SLDF Naval OOB is really quite convincing.

As for Capship silliness - I see 2 fixes, IMHO.

1.)  Fix AMS v. Missiles (I like 'each AMS fires exactly once, kills a missile on its Cap Damage/10 or higher on 2D6)

2.)  Fix Standard Weapons v. Capital Armor (Prefer 'Capital Armor is immune to Standard Damage' - its clean and simple.  Threshold would just add yet more math)

Once that's done, missiles can be used, AMS can shoot them down without having a magic breakpoint of immunity, and we can use capital weapons to kill capital ships without that annoying 'just mount 700 PPCs' voice in the back of our heads.

If we don't want to change the current calculation of Ship costs (and I LIKE having Drop Collars and LF Batteries be insanely expensive, because they are insanely useful) perhaps we could tame the current huge Dropship final cost modifier down to maybe x5-6.  This would make PWS attrition units (by comparison to warships) but capital units to be preserved (by comparison to fighters).  Gives us three solid tiers of cost and utility.

Alsadius

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Quote
Though Jellicoe's apologestics for the SLDF Naval OOB is really quite convincing.

You've piqued my interest. Do you have a link?

marcussmythe

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Its buried deep and I cant find the link right now.  Will dig tomorrow if noone has it to hand.

Short Version:  Defense in depth with layered escorts, assault droppers, and fighters in an onion relievs the capships of the burden of PDS.

Lack of armor is a reflection of their position as an unchallenged force-projection navy which never faced anything vaguely resembling a peer opponent.  The -massive- cargo also goes to this point.

They arent a navy for fighting other navies.  Their a navy for enforcing dominance on defenseless or relatively defenseless lesser powers.

Jellico

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Hoche (1890) was a bit of a revelation for me. In a description her hotel like facilities were heavily criticized for severely impacting on her fighting abilities but in the end were probably not that bad because she barely left harbor.

The key point being, most ships spend most of their time doing boring stuff. Not fighting fleet actions.

From then it is a matter of looking at history. The dominant naval power usually had ships with poor on paper stats but had better habitability, less maintenance, better ergonomics. The up and comers are the ones who push the envelope.


The other big influence was looking at nukes.  All detonations in the same hex add +2 to-hit. That is a mission kill right there.

Quite simply you can not afford to have a capital ship in nuclear combat. They are too easy to take out regardless of AMS.

The only effective defense is defense in depth.
Now look at the development if the SLDF since the Age of War. This is a fleet designed to operate in an environment where nukes are totally legal and EXPECTED.

Everything is pushing towards expendable parasite ships. Docking collars. Functional ASF. Combat DropShips. Also look at the combat you need to expect on the outer edge of a TF. High speed passes. Nukes. Disguised raiders. Massed ASF.
Armour won't work against these kinds of threats.


So yeah. That is why I wrote what I did. More AMS would be nice. More light AA? Maybe not. That is a separate discussion.

But at least we can attempt a doctrine that explains the SLDF and other navies across 800 years of technological development without breaking the existing ships too much.

Korzon77

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So, how would you design a ship in the era of the 3050s, where it isn't so much as "fleets" as "single warships or small numbers at most?"

Jellico

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That really is a for who question.

TRO3057 ships were to a degree, min maxed for Battlespace when conventional weapons really were king.

NAC30s. ERLLs or ERPPCs. 3/5 or 4/6. No small craft. Only ASF. Hodge podge of weapons chosen for flavour over effectiveness.

If I was designing for effectiveness in the time period? Fox is a good place to start. A Tatsumaki is probably of that time period too.

marcussmythe

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I always wondered how the hell you did a customs inspection, SAR, or moved cargo to other ships without Small Craft.

I think maybe the reason some players get jumpy about over-enginnered, over-designed superships is that history has not been kind to ‘min-maxed’ warships.

Jellico - if I misrepresented your argument, my apologies- I was operating from memory and some of my own thoughts may have infected what I presented as yours.

I wonder - what if the low armor on warships represents a belief that any more would have been wasted - by the time their armor is depleted, they will already have been mission killed by nuclear missiles?
« Last Edit: 20 April 2018, 07:21:49 by marcussmythe »

Jellico

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TRO2750 had great Ships. Given no stats they were properly thought out. Their main problem was their ASF which made no attempt to consider how many would be acceptable for combat. I suspect that the numbers were chosen based upon what would be a suitable packet for air support for a Battletech game.


Most of the 3057 ships were designed as if by a war gamer. Little thought for outside the tabletop.

There is a little gap in the middle which effected FMs: warden Clans, DC, FWL, and Explorer Corps where people started thinking again, though some ships like the Conqueror missed out. You get the feeling with the Leviathan 1 that someone looked really closely at a McKenna.

The brand new AT2 hit for the rest of the FMs resulting in min maxed table top bricks. The Leviathan II showed up here in AT2 RS. I find it fascinating because it drags in influences from 2750, Battlespace and AT2. You wouldn't design a ship that way in any of those periods and it creates some interesting flaws and quirks.

TRO3075 and 3057R predate Strategic Operations so miss the rule shift. They do feel very TRO3057 as they generally avoid the brick thing because they have to feel like period ships.
Even better they create a separate House and SLDF feel.

The 2750 Field books give us House designs designed under SO made to feel like 3057R and mostly work while being actual ships.

Then the Leviathan III is an attempt at future proofing at a meta and game level. It is still deeply flawed and we will see how time treats it.


Did I miss anything?

marcussmythe

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Alsadius

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Alsadius, found it.

Your looking for post #9.

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=41400.msg956192#msg956192

Thanks. I can see the argument, but it does run into the problem that the units are grossly non-optimized for TW/SO gameplay, in ways that the SLDF would have found and fixed if it were a real navy that operated within these rules for centuries. You could have the same design principles and the same unit "feel" all around, but get units that are far better at doing their jobs. For example, the SO armor limits mean that the McKenna(to pick my usual go-to) is grossly under-armoured - it has the SI to carry more than twice the armor it does, and the mass required would be trivial. Likewise, it could carry a mountain of AMS easily, but it doesn't, and none of its carried ships are likely to do so either.

For things like the cargo capacity and unit mix, I like his points, but not for the problem of the construction rules changing immensely from then to now.

Korzon77

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There's really nothing to do about that rather than take a complete rewrite and ignore most of the crunch that came before.

Which is to say, there are two ways to do a new addition--the first is try to fit older crunch in.  Ie, Superman's punch does 10d6 damage, so that's what it does, even if it forces us to write around it.

The second is to just go: Superman has the strongest punch, so whatever the system ends up defining as "Strongest" that's what he gets.  I would have preferred the second for Btech, rewriting the rules to fit the fluff rather than try and keep the old Crunch. IE, it doesn't matter what 2750 said the McKenna had, we're going with the fluff--the McKenna is the biggest, baddest, guy on the block.

marcussmythe

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I think rebuilding the older vessels to ‘what they would look like if built under current construction rules and game rulings’, while remaining true to the designs before use (McKenna gets maximim NPPC in 4 gun bays, massive cargo, and beefed up (but still light) PDS and anti-fighrter armament, Texas is brought to you by NACs and brawls, etc) could be good fun.

I may do that, as well as my clean-sheet-no-collars fleet... if I cant find a good nation to build if, maybe leave the ‘clean sheet’ navy as a proposal to some House that never happened becaise Jyhad.

Jellico

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You are forgetting the game is Battletech. Mechs are the kings of the battlefield. ASF must be manageable by Mechs. And lore says that WarShips must be manageable by ASF in relatively low numbers.

Yes "torpedos" are an option, but the swing the power balance in favour of ASF away from Mechs.

Unfortunately it is a house of cards with no easy fixes.

Vition2

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And lore says that WarShips must be manageable by ASF in relatively low numbers.

That warships are manageable by ASF in lowish numbers is an argument I've heard people make, but I'm not sure I've ever come across it in the books (there are a couple instances where a "lucky" pilot kamikazes into a warship, crippling it).  Could you point me to some references please?

And just to be clear, I'm looking for clear statements, not anecdotes.

Minemech

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 I have a thought for a fascinating article. take the 3 31sts, and the Vincent 39, and use them to demonstrate how these various conceptions interact. Likewise, explain how differences in infrastructure play a role in the designs of Corvettes. An example would be how the Vincent is dirt cheap, yet quite powerfully enables war groups to have further projection power by its sheer cargo space. Its an idea. Consider trying this within the context of your article.

idea weenie

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One fun idea would be for the Draconis Combine to build a few shipyards able to handle Warships that are up to 430,000 tons in mass.

The reasoning is that (IIRC) the Draconis Combine has the largest fleet of Monolith Jumpships (25 out of 50), so they would have more yards capable of handling hulls that size, as well as trained technicians and engineers that know how a yard that size would work.

Ruger

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I think rebuilding the older vessels to ‘what they would look like if built under current construction rules and game rulings’, while remaining true to the designs before use (McKenna gets maximim NPPC in 4 gun bays, massive cargo, and beefed up (but still light) PDS and anti-fighrter armament, Texas is brought to you by NACs and brawls, etc) could be good fun.

I personally favor up arming some ships (mostly SLDF, such as the Texas, Congress, and most especially the Sovetskii Soyuz) that seem underarmed to their classifications in comparison to their counterparts...especially with naval gauss rifles that weren't around during the ships' original appearances in TRO 2750...

Ruger
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Jellico

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That warships are manageable by ASF in lowish numbers is an argument I've heard people make, but I'm not sure I've ever come across it in the books (there are a couple instances where a "lucky" pilot kamikazes into a warship, crippling it).  Could you point me to some references please?

And just to be clear, I'm looking for clear statements, not anecdotes.

Waiting for a bus and can't really formulate a cohesive argument atm.

Clear statements probably don't exist. However there are a few drivers.

First this is Star Wars/romanticized Pacific WW2 in space. The plucky bomber always wins.

Then these are million ton ships being taken out by ten thousand tons of ASF.

But more telling is the low number of ASF carried by ships of all kinds. In being carried by a McKenna it is implied that 50 ASF are meant to be devastating. In reality most cruisers could survive that.
In reality the numbers probably come back to providing an op force for Mechs in a gaming environment.
And that brings us to another point. The system can't handle large numbers of anything. Even combined into squadrons 60 ASF is still 10 units. We all know how Tech games slow down at anything bigger than company size. So there is a huge incentive not to have larger forces because they become unplayable.


marcussmythe

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So we need better rules for fighter groups?

Minemech

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One fun idea would be for the Draconis Combine to build a few shipyards able to handle Warships that are up to 430,000 tons in mass.

The reasoning is that (IIRC) the Draconis Combine has the largest fleet of Monolith Jumpships (25 out of 50), so they would have more yards capable of handling hulls that size, as well as trained technicians and engineers that know how a yard that size would work.
The DCA is interesting. Their Kyushu, like the Fox, seems to have been built as a transport. Its weaponry is odd, but could have been explained in a well designed battlegroup. The completion of the Yamato makes me think that the 2nd generation would have been a heavier offensive fleet. The Yamato may have been a generation 1.5 ship.

Alsadius

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And that brings us to another point. The system can't handle large numbers of anything. Even combined into squadrons 60 ASF is still 10 units. We all know how Tech games slow down at anything bigger than company size. So there is a huge incentive not to have larger forces because they become unplayable.

So if we're going to change anything, the most obvious thing that ought to change is the WarShip size cap. This would obviously require a total re-write of everything(and thus isn't actually an option for BT), but if every ship was scaled down by a factor of 5-10, a lot of things begin to make more sense. You can't just throw a few full wings of fighters in for the mass of a single turret any more. That amount of mass devoted to small craft would actually make your ship start to feel like a serious, dedicated carrier. You can still make functional ships come out of the formulas by changing the armor cap(which is ludicrously low), and structure/engine/KF weight, so that the resulting ships are usable. Maybe capital weapon weight as well - they're quite heavy for what they do.

marcussmythe

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If 60 plucky bombers are, and -must for the universe to work- be a threat to a McKenna, the naval architect who filled the gorram thing with NPPCs instead of fighter bays should be taken out and shot.  Just tear those pages out of the books and replace with dropships, or at most small capships, carrying 120 (or however many) fighters.

But dont forget to keep an eye on how many doors you have to throw the fighters out of.  Doors are a strange kind of lostech.

-throws up hands at BT Naval, and wanders off to play Full Thrust/Starmada-

Vition2

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Waiting for a bus and can't really formulate a cohesive argument atm.

Clear statements probably don't exist. However there are a few drivers.
Please make a cohesive argument, because your follow-on statements don't work out.
Quote
First this is Star Wars/romanticized Pacific WW2 in space. The plucky bomber always wins.
Nope, 85+% of the warships destroyed in the setting are taken out by other warships, 10+% are taken out by sneak attacks.  The rare few are taken out by a nuke carrying fighter or a lucky kamikaze.  And while I'll admit that nuke carrying fighters should be common practice against warships, warships should also be carrying bevies of anti-missile and anti-aerospace weapons to counter them - so the issue is a wash.
Quote
Then these are million ton ships being taken out by ten thousand tons of ASF.
A reasonable combat, multiple billion c-bills on both sides - and c-bills are our most reasonable way of determining the resources needed to build the opposing forces, not tonnage.
Quote
But more telling is the low number of ASF carried by ships of all kinds. In being carried by a McKenna it is implied that 50 ASF are meant to be devastating. In reality most cruisers could survive that.
No idea where you are getting this from, it's not implied in either TRO2750 nor TRO3057.  You may be associating the massive success of the McKenna due to the "change in doctrine" that larger fighter complements may have - but this isn't stated anywhere, nor implied in its success.

Minemech

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 The fighter taking out warship thing does happen, look at the Falklands War, and some successful uses of Exocets.

Daryk

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Drakensis is doing a fine job of describing fleet actions where nuke-carrying ASFs are the primary threat to warships in his "Davion and Davion (Deceased)" thread down in Fan Fiction.

Charistoph

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The fighter taking out warship thing does happen, look at the Falklands War, and some successful uses of Exocets.

Heck, in universe, one fighter took out an entire Invasion!
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Minemech

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 The death of ilKhan Leo Showers was indeed a seminal moment in the Clan invasion.

Korzon77

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The question isn't: can fighters occassionally golden BB a warhship, is "can they do so reliably enough to be the dominant form of space-based power projection?"

And note, there are some problems with fighters.  For one thing, even a 3/5 warship, if it's trying to evade or just hold the distance, can make things difficult for fighters in terms of fuel and lifesupport. A warship running away and firing with NL's in AA mode can do a fair amount of damage. Even if you're trying to defend a planet, this produces a stuation where teh fighters have to come out against the enemy.  OTH, the fleeing enemy is in the positoin where recovering its fighter strike is even more difficult, and in setting, as opposed to on the game table, abandoning all your highly trained (and expensive) pilots is a bad idea for many reasons.


OTH, when attacking a world, fighters are much more useful--the defenders can't (we presume) run away, and so you can time your strike to maximize fuel benefits.

marcussmythe

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Well, the flip of all of this is that if a typical successor state, pop ~1T, imposed a soul crushing tax raise of 1 c-bill per person, that can justify any navy it amuses our storytelling soul to define...

Col Toda

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The LF battery is always worth it . Not for the extra range but the bug out potential for jump ships . Thus jump ships are less vulnerable as they can jump back to the previous secured sysyem . The other aspects of warship or jump ship level of desired systems are too interrelated with ERA and  rules of engagement yours as well as the enemies to venture a hard opinion on . The maintainace of a proper Naval Academy for the training of a Navy is likely a far bigger expense than any of the hardware and maintainace issues though .
« Last Edit: 24 April 2018, 08:01:57 by Col Toda »

Minemech

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The question isn't: can fighters occassionally golden BB a warhship, is "can they do so reliably enough to be the dominant form of space-based power projection?"

And note, there are some problems with fighters.  For one thing, even a 3/5 warship, if it's trying to evade or just hold the distance, can make things difficult for fighters in terms of fuel and lifesupport. A warship running away and firing with NL's in AA mode can do a fair amount of damage. Even if you're trying to defend a planet, this produces a stuation where teh fighters have to come out against the enemy.  OTH, the fleeing enemy is in the positoin where recovering its fighter strike is even more difficult, and in setting, as opposed to on the game table, abandoning all your highly trained (and expensive) pilots is a bad idea for many reasons.


OTH, when attacking a world, fighters are much more useful--the defenders can't (we presume) run away, and so you can time your strike to maximize fuel benefits.
No one disagrees with you on that, we were disagreeing with setting depictions, whilst also noting examples where fighters really did do such things. If they worked that way commonly in aerotech, no one would field warships. Some ships are more vulnerable to fighters than others and pay a price for it. Sometimes players wrongly prioritize their actions and pay a price for it. I played the Free Worlds League on the ground game, at a time when bad prioritization could be deeply unforgiving.

I am Belch II

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I still dont like how a Potemkin would be 3 times more expensive then a McKenna battleship.
Walking the fine line between sarcasm and being a smart-ass

SCC

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I still dont like how a Potemkin would be 3 times more expensive then a McKenna battleship.
Pretty sure it's the K-F Drive, Potemkin's have 25 collars that up the cost of the drive.

Daryk

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That's definitely it.  If you're building on a budget, collars are your bane.

marcussmythe

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That's definitely it.  If you're building on a budget, collars are your bane.

Designed a navy around that assumption - “What would it look like if you had enough shipyards to absorb all the C-Bills you cared to spend on building a Navy” - IE, what can we get if we give up collars?  Was interesting - heavier fighter carriage and cnsumables as one cant just hang a dropship to fit whatever is needed, but you can afford to build a lot more ships.  Whether this is a good long term plan depends on whether collars also increase ongoing costs for the ship, and what loss rates look like. 

Minemech

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 Sometimes you have to go in debt to save in the long run. There are points of diminishing return, and they vary by naval design and infrastructure.

marcussmythe

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Sometimes you have to go in debt to save in the long run. There are points of diminishing return, and they vary by naval design and infrastructure.

I think it comes down to where your bottlenecks are.  And your other expectations.  What is the anticipated build cost vs. lifespan cost?  Ships that are going to leave the builders yard to go straight into pitched battle are probably built to be cheap (relative to their combat power) and disposable.  The lifespan cost for the ship doesn't matter as much, because you don't expect it to have much of one - just the production cost.

A peacetime navy, or one that expects to pay the cost of the ship many times over in life-cycle costs, can and probably should save life-cycle money where it can by building big, roomy, with space for upgrades and refits, and by maximizing capability to minimize long term costs. 

As an example, the hypothetical no-collar fleet makes sense for massive rushed wartime production, and might well focus on smaller units, or at least the cheapest unit that can do the job.  A peacetime fleet might well focus on automation, and fill itself out with dropcollars and fighter bays that are usually EMPTY in peacetime...

Minemech

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 When you think about it, the Eagle was one of the best designed ships in universe on a long term scale. It has a reasonable acceleration curve, a strong cargo capacity, good point defense by canon standards, and sufficient drop collars to be useful at its mass. Its firepower is quite fierce. Most importantly, it is easily upgraded. Sure it needs a good defensive boost, and sure its guns could use some upgrading, but all in time. Unfortunately, it was not given that time. Generation 1.5 upgrades to it, and other ships could have made them ferocious. I will not provide any fan designs, and there are numerous ways to rework the ship, including further exploitation of its handy cargo capacity. It could also be redesigned to work around generation 2 warships differently.

 By comparison, I would have given the Fox some extra PD, and written it off as a light transport when the generation II warships started to appear. Not a shameful task, but probably not the role envisioned when it was harkening a new age of aerospace dominance, or to at least provide a measure of balance against the clans. Or perhaps the Fox is symptomatic of transport warfare mindset, rather than a more holistic system that combines that with aerospace supremacy.
 
 It is unfair to overjudge the first warships pushed out by any of the houses in centuries, because much of it was a learning curve. The differences between the Fox, Impavido, and the Kyushu do make for interesting conversation. I believe that only the Impavido was actually designed to hunt other warships.

Korzon77

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I think every ship, save "we're pushing this ship out of the slip so it can be blown up in a week" should have at least one, perhaps two collars. You pay a price, but you make it back and more in that you now have a multipurpose vessel.

marcussmythe

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I think every ship, save "we're pushing this ship out of the slip so it can be blown up in a week" should have at least one, perhaps two collars. You pay a price, but you make it back and more in that you now have a multipurpose vessel.

Where is the sweet spot?  If two is good, are four twice as good?

Given that (to all appearances) C-Bills just dont matter unless they suddenly do matter - whatever fits the story - what does the other end look like?  If you need combat power and your bottleneck is slipways (and in story, it almost certainly is!) - do all cap ships start turning into latter-day Potemkins, covered in assault droppers and pocket warships that themselves fling out squadrons of aerofighters?  Or have we turned ‘wall of battle’ hulls into centerpieces that dont so much project power themselves as support a massive swarm of power projection, that so dwarfs what the capital hull itself can throw that your better served to keep it out of the fight so it can survive to support its fighters/dropships in command and control and logistics?

Oh, well.  It is a conundrum.  At best I suppose to take the inconsitencies not as a matter for confusion or frustration, but as an excuse to do kinda whatever sounds cool, as long as it makes a cool story.  Nothing a player is likely to do/design/theorize/propose is likely to be -less- believable than many in universe things that have already come and gone.  A lot I guess turns on whether you want to do things that can play well with the main universe or accept that your taking a left turn into AU land if you do anything significant.

Korzon77

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Pretty much, yeah. To be honest, i think that the monitor concept might make a come back if you can figure out a way to make them Drop collar transportable--and honestly, this ia actually a pretty common theme in Sci-fi fiction and gaming. Traveller had the battleriders, and a a bunch of Webers fiction makes use of parasite warships, some of them the size of battleships. (to be fair, some of those series also have motherships the size of the moon).

marcussmythe

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Pretty much, yeah. To be honest, i think that the monitor concept might make a come back if you can figure out a way to make them Drop collar transportable--and honestly, this ia actually a pretty common theme in Sci-fi fiction and gaming. Traveller had the battleriders, and a a bunch of Webers fiction makes use of parasite warships, some of them the size of battleships. (to be fair, some of those series also have motherships the size of the moon).

Functionally, it always seemed to me that PWS -were- the battle riders (and monitors) of the setting.

Minemech

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 To me a Monitor will remain a big gunned, light warship. Deploy them as escorts to transport warships, and key convoys, and let it be.

idea weenie

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Pretty much, yeah. To be honest, i think that the monitor concept might make a come back if you can figure out a way to make them Drop collar transportable--and honestly, this ia actually a pretty common theme in Sci-fi fiction and gaming. Traveller had the battleriders, and a a bunch of Webers fiction makes use of parasite warships, some of them the size of battleships. (to be fair, some of those series also have motherships the size of the moon).

We'd have to figure out how much of the Dropship multiplier is for the KF linkage, and how much is for the multi-atmosphere capability.  That could explain the Behemoth, which is currently a 100kton Dropship with a 2/3 acceleration, but unable to land due to its low thrust.  It is a 'monitor', but one dedicated to cargo and the designers dropped atmospheric capability to make it cheaper.

  To me a Monitor will remain a big gunned, light warship. Deploy them as escorts to transport warships, and key convoys, and let it be.

At that point, a monitor would be a Dropship that cannot land on a planet. 


To me there are three 'classes' of monitor:
1) Jump-capable: essentially a Dropship that can never land.  Advantage: uses Warship engine percentages per thrust point, can be carried on a Docking Collar, no atmospheric capability multiplier.  Disadvantage: limited to Dropship tonnages, uses KF cost multiplier
2) non-Jump-capable, but small: no KF attachment capability, but you can shove it in a much larger ship's cargo bay.  Due to the Monitor being a single hull, the minimum size ship that can carry it is 10* the monitor's mass.  Advantage: no atmospheric or KF capability cost multiplier.  Disadvantage: limited to 250 kton mass, need large Warships to carry it
3) non-Jump-capable, and large: would need a custom style ship to transport it FTL (think like the Citadel station from Mass Effect, but with a KF core and carries cargo in the hollow front).  Advantage: can be much larger, no KF or atmospheric capability.  Disadvantage: once built, it stays; needs a special (non-canon) ship design to move after being built

I have forgotten, can a Warship with a Reinforced Repair Bay perform a KF jump with a vessel in the Bay?  (Assume all other conditions for jumping are met)

Starfox1701

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The argument on cost is some what academic in battletech. If there's one thing the stories have shown time and again is that the houses will build whatever they can and the only real limit will be what there individual industries can turn out and what they think they will have to fight. The economy always takes a back seat.

As far as the Fox class goes she makes way more since if you look at her as if she is a votec project for a bunch of college students instead of a line ship. Her entire construction was both and industrial training course and a way to front the setup cost for building bigger better warships.

Real navies with all that implies I think scare the designers. They put a lot of effort into unit histories and such and imagine the nerd rage if say a battalion or regiment if your favorite house troops or Mercs got vaped before they even made planet fall. Such a thing is a real possibility all the time if full fleets started trucking around the verse.  Of course we have the mith and legends if a real fleet in the SLDF but even then it doesn't really meet general expectations.

I like Jelico's treaties on the SLDF combat doctrine it was very informative.

On the notion of a collarless fleet I don't think its practical outside of a narrow set of specific circumstances. The loss of any combat dropers is denying yourself to great a force multiplayer. On collar cost I'm confused. Standard cores can jump 3 times there own mass and compact cores 6 times there own mass. For a 2.5 million ton warship that works out to the core being able to move somewhere in the neighborhood of 6.5 million tons. Even with max collars and taking all Behemoths you can't push the mass over 4 million tons. In fact no ship maxed on collars will ever get close to exceeding its core's mass jump limit so why do the collars effect the cost of the core? Therescno reason For that and that needs to change pure and simple. If you want to limit the number of collars your players use pick a higher mass ratio like 1 per 100 k instead of 1 per 50k. Don't add some unexplainable cost spike that 90% of players won't bother calculating anyway. I mean most of us will figure the BV but you got to be pretty deep in the weeds in a campaign or writing a source book to actually need the Cbill cost of a custom ship.

Minemech

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We'd have to figure out how much of the Dropship multiplier is for the KF linkage, and how much is for the multi-atmosphere capability.  That could explain the Behemoth, which is currently a 100kton Dropship with a 2/3 acceleration, but unable to land due to its low thrust.  It is a 'monitor', but one dedicated to cargo and the designers dropped atmospheric capability to make it cheaper.

At that point, a monitor would be a Dropship that cannot land on a planet. 


To me there are three 'classes' of monitor:
1) Jump-capable: essentially a Dropship that can never land.  Advantage: uses Warship engine percentages per thrust point, can be carried on a Docking Collar, no atmospheric capability multiplier.  Disadvantage: limited to Dropship tonnages, uses KF cost multiplier
2) non-Jump-capable, but small: no KF attachment capability, but you can shove it in a much larger ship's cargo bay.  Due to the Monitor being a single hull, the minimum size ship that can carry it is 10* the monitor's mass.  Advantage: no atmospheric or KF capability cost multiplier.  Disadvantage: limited to 250 kton mass, need large Warships to carry it
3) non-Jump-capable, and large: would need a custom style ship to transport it FTL (think like the Citadel station from Mass Effect, but with a KF core and carries cargo in the hollow front).  Advantage: can be much larger, no KF or atmospheric capability.  Disadvantage: once built, it stays; needs a special (non-canon) ship design to move after being built

I have forgotten, can a Warship with a Reinforced Repair Bay perform a KF jump with a vessel in the Bay?  (Assume all other conditions for jumping are met)
A canon example of a ship that approaches my understanding of the Monitor would be the Mako, with its strong broadsides. While it may not contain the biggest of guns, the paired NAC 25s can perform a strong punch for a ship of its mass. They are also practical given the ship's need for some range. Unfortunately, a number of long range guns were reasonably common in that era. It also has a good movement curve, with descent armor for its era. It needed cargo, and was lacked collars. It was designed as a parasite escort. It is not the ship I would have designed, but it is a canon resemblance of a Monitor.
« Last Edit: 25 May 2018, 08:05:21 by Minemech »

Minemech

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The argument on cost is some what academic in battletech. If there's one thing the stories have shown time and again is that the houses will build whatever they can and
As far as the Fox class goes she makes way more since if you look at her as if she is a votec project for a bunch of college students instead of a line ship. Her entire construction was both and industrial training course and a way to front the setup cost for building bigger better warships.

Real navies with all that implies I think scare the designers. They put a lot of effort into unit histories and such and imagine the nerd rage if say a battalion or regiment if your favorite house troops or Mercs got vaped before they even made planet fall. Such a thing is a real possibility all the time if full fleets started trucking around the verse.  Of course we have the mith and legends if a real fleet in the SLDF but even then it doesn't really meet general expectations.
There is nothing inherently wrong with mass manufacturing of the Fox as a Transport class Warship. It needed to be grafted into a larger navy. I wonder if the Federated Suns/Commonwealth overestimated the effectiveness of the Overlord A-3.

Starfox1701

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I'm pretty sure that or something like it was the plan had the civil war and then the jihad not gotten in the way. I think it is also possible that since it was the plan to have the spheriods unit against the clans from the get go that all of the new ships where intended by the designers to function as a single immigrated fleet even if each nation had no such intent.

idea weenie

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On the notion of a collarless fleet I don't think its practical outside of a narrow set of specific circumstances. The loss of any combat dropers is denying yourself to great a force multiplayer. On collar cost I'm confused. Standard cores can jump 3 times there own mass and compact cores 6 times there own mass. For a 2.5 million ton warship that works out to the core being able to move somewhere in the neighborhood of 6.5 million tons. Even with max collars and taking all Behemoths you can't push the mass over 4 million tons. In fact no ship maxed on collars will ever get close to exceeding its core's mass jump limit so why do the collars effect the cost of the core? Therescno reason For that and that needs to change pure and simple. If you want to limit the number of collars your players use pick a higher mass ratio like 1 per 100 k instead of 1 per 50k. Don't add some unexplainable cost spike that 90% of players won't bother calculating anyway. I mean most of us will figure the BV but you got to be pretty deep in the weeds in a campaign or writing a source book to actually need the Cbill cost of a custom ship.

??? I thought you could mount one collar per 50ktons of mounting ship.  So the 2.5MTon ship could mount up to 50 collars.  If each mounts a Behemoth that is 100ktons per Dropship, or a total of 5 mTon of carried Droppers, for a combined mass of 7.5MTon, divided by the 1,131,250 ton KF Core mass, is ~6.63

Cost complexity is explained by the need to deform the KF field across each Docking Collar.  More Collars mean more little bubbles that can be created in the KF field, meaning the core is harder to make.


I'm pretty sure that or something like it was the plan had the civil war and then the jihad not gotten in the way. I think it is also possible that since it was the plan to have the spheriods unit against the clans from the get go that all of the new ships where intended by the designers to function as a single immigrated fleet even if each nation had no such intent.

Now this is a very nice idea.  You have the Lyran Mjolnir, the Fedsun Fox, the FWL Thera, and I forget what the Capellan and Draconis ships were.

Starfox1701

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A Behemoth takes up 2 collars unless they changed that back recently.

Maingunnery

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A Behemoth takes up 2 collars unless they changed that back recently.
That is merely optional, it is a representation of how its size might block other DropShips from connecting to adjacent collars.
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Starfox1701

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Reference please

Frabby

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Reference please
Well for starters, there is nothing in the game rules at this time except for a Quirk, which is by definition optional.

When the Behemoth was introduced to the BattleTech universe in 1988 with DropShips and JumpShips, the construction/space travel rules at the time postulated that a DropShip required two docking hardpoints for every 60,000 tons (or fraction thereof) of mass to dock with a JumpShip. There was no explanation given, and the only statted vessel of over 60,000 tons was the Behemoth.
The rule has since been dropped and doesn't exist anymore, and Quirk rules didn't exist back then.

The "Large DropShip" Quirk post-dates the introduction of the Behemoth DropShip by some twenty years. The Behemoth is explicitly listed as the poster child example for this Quirk though so the impression given is that the Large DropShip Quirk was actually tailored for and by the Behemoth.

The only explanation ever given is the wording in DropShips and JumpShips: "The hull is so enormous that it takes up the space for two vessels when docked with a JumpShip."
To wit, that means they still require only one collar for jumping, and can still be carried on a Scout class JumpShip with its single collar. Conversely, it wasn't ever said anywhere that they required two collars for jumping. Personally as a GM, I probably would still allow very small DropShip (such as a Fury, Buccaneer or Leopard) to dock next to a Behemoth.
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skiltao

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"Space" in that sentence could just as easily mean "collar space for jumping."

Also, to the best of my memory, that single sentence is the only thing DS&JS says about mass limits per collar. We can infer there's a limit somewhere in between the Mammoth and Behemoth, but that's all - there's no explicit rule there, and no particular tonnage is specified.

Where are you getting that 60 kiloton rule from?
« Last Edit: 26 May 2018, 12:47:11 by skiltao »
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Frabby

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I'd have to look it up, but I'm fairly sure this was in one of the earliest aerospace construction rulesets - either AeroTech or perhaps BattleSpace. Let me get back to you on this.

Edit: Found it. BattleSpace rulebook, p. 49:
Quote
A DropShip docking with a JumpShip requires one docking hardpoint for every 60,000 tons of mass. Any DropShip docked with a JumpShip that has a working K-F boom may be transported through hyperspace.
The wording is still (or again) unclear - the first sentence could be construed to say you positively need to dock to two hardpoints, the second sentence seems to say one hardpoint will suffice. But that doesn't matter. Like I said above, this has positively been abandoned as a rule under AeroTech 2 and Campaign Operations rules. But it used to be in effect for a time, during one particular iteration of the aerospace rules.
« Last Edit: 26 May 2018, 13:11:15 by Frabby »
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skiltao

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I read the first sentence as saying the DropShip isn't "docked" until it fills enough hardpoints, but yeah, you're right - this is all optional in the current edition of the rules.

Thanks for the pageref. The rule sounded like something BattleSpace would do, but I only checked its construction rules and individual ship entries, not the docking rules.  xp
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Starfox1701

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So basically the Behemoth is supposed to take up 2 slots but we can fudge it and double up the load.

Frabby

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So basically the Behemoth is supposed to take up 2 slots but we can fudge it and double up the load.
I'd rather say under game rules it only requires one hardpoint by default, but unclear wording in its fluff and an expressly optional quirk mean that your GM can rule instead that an exception applies, namely that it either requires two hardpoints, or requires one and blocks another due to its sheer size. There is no definite rule by which the Behemoth always requires more than one hardpoint.

And just for the sake of clarity and completeness, technically the introduction of the Behemoth even predates the 60,000 ton rule from BattleSpace (but it had that piece of fluff in place from the beginning).

(Though the Behemoth, Castrum and - apocryphally - the Argo all have the Large DropShip quirk; I'm not aware of any other DropShip over 60,000 tons or associated with this quirk.)
« Last Edit: 26 May 2018, 16:17:49 by Frabby »
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idea weenie

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I've figured it was along the lines of the effort needed to warp a KF bubble around a Behemoth meant that it only took up the space of 1 Docking Collar, but the drive couldn't put out enough energy for a second Dropship on the second collar (using a Merchant Jumpship or larger as an example).

Further development of Behemoths might have solved that problem, so it only takes 1 'unit' of KF strength to bubble a modernized Behemoth.

I guess in the meantime you might say that if you attach a Behemoth to one Docking Collar, and there are at least 2 collars on the Jumpship/Warship, then another collar can have a vessel of no more than 20,000 tons attached to it.  I'm not bothering with the specific location of the two Dropships, as I am assuming the Jumpship/Warship Captain would take care of that before jumping (with lots of discussions with the KF chief engineer to make sure the bubble could form correctly).

So a Scout Jumpship can carry a behemoth no problem.  A Merchant Jumpship can only carry a Behemoth if the second Dropship is less tan 20 ktons of mass.

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Honestly, I thought that flaw would be better applied to Jumpships--IE, "Cramped collars: Due to the spacing of the collars, dropships massing over X take up 2 collars rather than one."

Starfox1701

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Its odd because you look at somthi g like a monolith or a clan Aegiss and there's no way a Behemoth would take up 2 callors, but on something like a Tharkad yea I can see it.

 It's one of the flaws of ship construction rules. Nothing in the rules actually cover things from a stand point of the will be a visual feature as well as a physical one.