Author Topic: Omnifighters and Reflective Armor (Read 4690 times)

Terrace · « **on:** 25 May 2018, 18:11:35 »

Just how viable is this combination? Because I'm sure the Kurita fans were gleeful when they were given the Koroshiya, with it's thick Reflective Armor coating. In my mind, only the fact that it wasn't an Omnifighter prevented it from being the ultimate Heavy ASF in existence.

So what about making an Omnifighter with Reflective Armor? Do the rules allow it? Would it be an excellent combo?

Maelwys · « **Reply #1 on:** 26 May 2018, 01:10:18 »

The rules allow it as far as I know, unless I'm missing some Errata.

As for whether or not it works as the base armor for an Omnifighter...I get the feeling that's just going to really depend on your view of Reflective armor on a fighter. Being an Omni doesn't really give or take anything away from the armor really, IMO.

Vition2 · « **Reply #2 on:** 26 May 2018, 10:10:50 »

It's actually the reason I started putting multiple types of standard weapons in my created warships. Most will now include missile, ballistic, and energy weapons, when previously I usually just shoved Large Pulse Lasers on it.

As for it's use, yes it is legal, and it was likely the most ideal armor on aerospace fighters shortly after it was introduced. But as other nations begin to see the deployment of large numbers of fighters with this armor, they're going to start working on doctrine to include counters to them. This is pretty easy with omnifighters, which are becoming more and more ubiquitous, where their weapon load outs can provide the flexibility to counter these fighters.

Tai Dai Cultist · « **Reply #3 on:** 26 May 2018, 10:21:53 »

A couple of thoughts:

1) As a Kurita fan, I do indeed love that the Koroshiya is a thing. That being said, it's not SO awesome that I still don't have Eisensturm or Cutlass envy.

2) Reflec Armor is a third tier of obsolescence. Any fighter without DHS is obsolete to one designed post DHSs. Then came XL engines: any fighter w/o one is obsolete. Reflective armor is the third tech that renders a fighter without it obsolete. Because while there's a fair number of downsides to using Reflective armor, they just don't apply in practice for aerospace units. For fighters, reflec armor is pure upside.. and an upside against a class of weaponry that is at least as well represented in space as on the ground.

3) Segueing from the "Fighters aren't in situations where Reflective Armor's disadvantages come into play"... remember that Cap/Subcap Lasers/PPCs aren't "energy" weapons. Reflec armor still takes full damage from the big guns!

Terrace · « **Reply #4 on:** 26 May 2018, 10:26:44 »

Quote from: Vition2 on 26 May 2018, 10:10:50

As for it's use, yes it is legal, and it was likely the most ideal armor on aerospace fighters shortly after it was introduced. But as other nations begin to see the deployment of large numbers of fighters with this armor, they're going to start working on doctrine to include counters to them. This is pretty easy with omnifighters, which are becoming more and more ubiquitous, where their weapon load outs can provide the flexibility to counter these fighters.

And now I'm imagining mixing Reflective-armored fighters with ASFs mounting Ballistic-Reinforced armor that are facing Omnifighters. The ones in Reflective armor identify and go after the Omnis with heavy energy armaments, while the BRs fight the configurations that are heavy on autocannons, gauss rifles, and missiles.

Retry · « **Reply #5 on:** 26 May 2018, 11:33:27 »

Quote from: Tai Dai Cultist on 26 May 2018, 10:21:53

2) Reflec Armor is a third tier of obsolescence. Any fighter without DHS is obsolete to one designed post DHSs. Then came XL engines: any fighter w/o one is obsolete.

On XL engines:Eh... while the higher speed for lesser weight is really nice, the easily tripling price of price on a heavier ASF isn't.

Tai Dai Cultist · « **Reply #6 on:** 26 May 2018, 11:55:43 »

That presumes that you both

1) figure Cbill price as an in-universe factor (CGL doesn't anymore)

2) figure Cbill prices remain static for new/prototype tech rather than going down over the decades since invention as the expensive quirks of the manufacturing process are ironed out.

Liam's Ghost · « **Reply #7 on:** 26 May 2018, 12:12:54 »

Quote from: Tai Dai Cultist on 26 May 2018, 10:21:53

3) Segueing from the "Fighters aren't in situations where Reflective Armor's disadvantages come into play"... remember that Cap/Subcap Lasers/PPCs aren't "energy" weapons. Reflec armor still takes full damage from the big guns!

They're actually area affect weapons, so...

Maelwys · « **Reply #8 on:** 26 May 2018, 13:03:02 »

Quote from: Liam's Ghost on 26 May 2018, 12:12:54

They're actually area affect weapons, so...

Well, that's interesting. I guess this is an odd question. Do they count as AE weapons when it comes to space combat, or is the AE tag there for when they're being used to strike ground targets?

Because with the proliferation of sub-cap weapons and PWSs, that could really put a damper on Reflective armor use.

Liam's Ghost · « **Reply #9 on:** 26 May 2018, 14:11:40 »

The unabashed sadist that lives in my brain wants to believe they count as AE weapons all the time. Also, I don't know of any rule or footnote that says otherwise.

Jellico · « **Reply #10 on:** 27 May 2018, 18:00:28 »

Quote from: Terrace on 25 May 2018, 18:11:35

So what about making an Omnifighter with Reflective Armor?

:-X

Quote from: Vition2 on 26 May 2018, 10:10:50

This is pretty easy with omnifighters, which are becoming more and more ubiquitous, where their weapon load outs can provide the flexibility to counter these fighters.

These Omnifighters already exist. NTNU has a bunch. Typical techniques include area effect weapons, ballistics, not so much missiles as they are low critting and common anyway, and very large energy weapons like HPPCs.

Daryk · « **Reply #11 on:** 27 May 2018, 18:13:42 »

Wait... Reflective Armor affects PPCs? ???

Minemech · « **Reply #12 on:** 27 May 2018, 19:36:02 »

There are already non-ballistic countermeasures to this armor in aerospace combat. Still, it does put a damper on many heavy weapons. I suspect the Lasers in question may become common on medium fighters as certain armors proliferate, leading to a sea change.

glitterboy2098 · « **Reply #13 on:** 28 May 2018, 11:31:40 »

Quote from: Daryk on 27 May 2018, 18:13:42

Wait... Reflective Armor affects PPCs? ???

yes. one of the reasons the Quasimodo, with its reflective armor+Blue Shield combo, can be so nasty

Minemech · « **Reply #14 on:** 28 May 2018, 12:20:09 »

It buys some pretty precious time against some brutal snipers and brawlers. :) Plus you can turn the shield off if it gets too risky.
It is a shame that so many of our border foes like Gauss Rifles.

It is kind of nice being able to mitigate some of the deadliest clan weapons. Those Missiles remain an issue, but give it time.

Tai Dai Cultist · « **Reply #15 on:** 28 May 2018, 12:42:41 »

Quote from: Daryk on 27 May 2018, 18:13:42

Wait... Reflective Armor affects PPCs? ???

Yep. The Hellstar suddenly ain't so scary.

Daryk · « **Reply #16 on:** 28 May 2018, 16:52:42 »

I'm going to need some time to wrap my head around "reflecting" high speed ions... :P

Liam's Ghost · « **Reply #17 on:** 28 May 2018, 17:07:27 »

Quote from: Daryk on 28 May 2018, 16:52:42

I'm going to need some time to wrap my head around "reflecting" high speed ions... :P

Shhhhh...

Though it's not specifically the reflective quality that affects PPC fire. In fact, the first versions of it were actually more susceptible to PPCs (presumably in a nod to the Tactical Handbook version). Gaining resistance to PPCs (as well as heat producing weapons like plasma cannons and flamers) was a later innovation.

Daryk · « **Reply #18 on:** 28 May 2018, 17:16:55 »

Sounds more "ablative" than "reflective" in that case... hmmm...

Terrace · « **Reply #19 on:** 12 June 2018, 18:52:49 »

Quote from: Daryk on 28 May 2018, 17:16:55

Sounds more "ablative" than "reflective" in that case... hmmm...

All Battletech armor is ablative. It's just called "Laser-Reflective" armor because it holds up against energy weapons far better than any other armor type.

And something I finally realized while looking on Sarna.net, there's not only three more ASF designs that use Reflective armor (the Steiner Wildkatze and the Davion Rondel and Cutlass), but a canon Omnifighter design coated in Reflective armor, the 85-ton Republic of the Sphere-built Simurgh. Guess that answers that question.

Thunder · « **Reply #20 on:** 04 July 2018, 11:21:49 »

Possibly going with Intent of rules rather then Rules as Written, But Reflective armor and crash's should not mix. So long as you stay away from planets you're fine, But once you get into lawn dart check range (And Artillery flak Range) you start having issues.

Tai Dai Cultist · « **Reply #21 on:** 04 July 2018, 11:32:37 »

There's also the potential issue of taking double damage on botched recovery rolls when you fail to land cleanly on a carrier ship.

Leon Shirow · « **Reply #22 on:** 04 September 2018, 16:45:19 »

Was just catching up on the errata for Tactical Operations.

"Aerospace units employing Artillery Cannons against other aerospace units use them as autocannons, and cannot deliver damage effects into adjacent hexes. However, the damage type is still considered AE."

Are there any fighters or dropships mounting Long Tom Artillery Cannons?

Weirdo · « **Reply #23 on:** 04 September 2018, 16:50:01 »

Yes. The Transit in TRO Prototypes.

Moonsword · « **Reply #24 on:** 04 September 2018, 16:53:58 »

There is an OmniFighter config in TRO 3145, too. One of the Clan assault birds in the New Tech section, not a brand new fighter.

Col Toda · « **Reply #25 on:** 10 September 2018, 10:45:02 »

Depends on ERA would be my answer . 3050 - 3085 It would be ok . After that a huge proliferation of Arrow IV platforms and time for the Air Defense Arrow IV round to happen to be in all inner sphere armies . The Flack / AE issue would constantly come up . Use for VTOLS is ok because they be Cheap attrition units . Not so Aerospace Fighters particularly Omni fighters .