Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread IV - READ THE FIRST POST

[jasonf]

I just wanted to say that I really appreciate the new changelog thread. Thanks for putting in the effort to put it together!  :thumbsup:

As for the RAT review project, is the St Ives Compact on the to-do list? I remember a discussion a while back about some FedCom designs they should likely have access to based on FM:CC fluff and their RATs

[GreekFire]

Hi Jason,

The MUL is following an internal policy regarding how it's approaching Random Assignment Tables. This means that not every unit from every RAT will be added to the MUL, though the intent is to eventually review all of them. That said, I believe the lore passages in FM:CC were addressed---if we seem to have missed any, please let us know.

With that in mind, St. Ives will have its first modern RAT since 2011 in the upcoming Historical: St. Ives War. This RAT will tightly align with the modern RAT-making approach and will fully line up with units available to St. Ives on the MUL.

Thank you!

[jeremylt]

Is it intentional or an oversight that the MUL only lists the C-bill cost for battle armor units Sqd4 and not Sqd3, Sqd5, or Sqd6? I've been doing the arithmetic to scale from Sqd4, but it seems like this might be an accidental oversight.

[Sartris]

entering costs generally lags behind unit entry. they'll be added eventually but there is no TBA

[BaachicLitNerd]

You did it. You absolute loons, you actually did it.

[jgodwin17]

A few things I noticed were missing from the Taurian DA availability list after the 3145 RAT review. I saw some things were excluded for being contradicted in other sources, and I will preface that I by no means have access to every source, so there may be stuff the supersedes the following.

Notable mechs:
Vulture MK IV (on the RAT twice and pretty sure Sea Fox sells this one to everyone, in the IlClan Sea Fox also has Brusett which is right next door)
Hound HD-2F (Filtvelt made, they do some trading with the Taurians, so maybe?)
ALB-3UR Albatross (FWL design, not sure how many they exported)
Grand Titan T-IT-11M (As above, figure they trade them to Canopus so maybe? But Canopus is a lot more proximal)

Vehicles:
Fortune (Standard) (No idea, have never even heard of this - looks to be Lyran and Marian)

Anyways, thanks for taking a look and doing all the RAT work. You folks have really been flying through them and we definitely appreciate it.

[GreekFire]

*snip*

Not sure how I missed these. Adding---I appreciate the double check.

[jgodwin17]

No problem. Thank you for doing the massive job that is reviewing all the RATs and maintaining the MUL, I’m sure I would miss many more things than you folks do if I were in your shoes.

[DeceptidodgeIG]

I believe the battle value on the Master Unit list is wrong for Clan Heavy Jump Infantry. The MUL has them as 136, but according to my math they should be 291.
I've done the math with the tech manual and I've come up with 291bv for a point of 20 troopers.

Defensive Battle Rating: 20 troopers x 1.5 x 1.2 movement modifier: 20 x 1.5. x 1.2 = 36

Offensive Battle rating    16 x Mauser IIC 9.82 = 157.12
                                          4  x Bear hunter AC 2.13 = 8.52
                                 Double for anti-mech ability   = 331.28 weapon battle rating

                        Weapon rating x speed factor (from chart) of 0.77. = 255 total offensive rating

Offensive + defensive rating 255 + 36 = 291             

[Sartris]

thanks, we'll take a look

[DeceptidodgeIG]

I can't find me tion of it in the tech manual but I have seen other calculations that include infantry armor divisors in the BV calculations. If that is in fact required that would double the Clan Heavy Jump Infantry Devensive Battle rating to 72. This would then increase the total BV of the Point to 327.

[danilapal]

Unit
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1639/j-edgar-light-hover-tank-kurita

Issue : Wrong BV value: 740->696
Source : Recognition guide: ilclan . Vol 32 , MegaMekLab 0.49.8 (see attachment)

[pokefan548]

Are the Kraken (Bane) 2 and 3's availabilities correct? They both go from fairly exclusive during the Civil War and prior, to being universally available among the Clans and Society during the Jihad, then straight back to relative exclusivity from the Early Republic onward. Accidental copy/paste of the standard KrakBane's Jihad availabilities?

[Sartris]

jihad / wars of reaving were wild like that sometimes.

the jihad data in particular goes back to the MUL alpha drafts. it would be necessary to find some hard evidence restricting the kraken's availability during that time to peel back anything that old.

[Kerfuffin(925)]

What ended up happening with the Wusun for Ghost Bears in ilClan era?
It’s on the DD RAT multiple times and the dice math make it like 1/5 of all medium fighters.

[Decoy]

Following that, the Tyre 3 is on most of the mercenary RATs from 3145 to DD. Are various other elements being considered at a separate time or is there something we're overlooking?

[Sartris]

What ended up happening with the Wusun for Ghost Bears in ilClan era?
It’s on the DD RAT multiple times and the dice math make it like 1/5 of all medium fighters.

i'm working through TR/EA/DD currently

[Firepigeon]

Djinn Battle Armor (Reflective) “Terrorizer” [Laser] (Sqd6) is missing Era info for Early Republic (3081 - 3100)
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/9080/djinn-battle-armor-reflective-terrorizer-laser-sqd6

[Firepigeon]

Djinn Battle Armor (Reflective) “Terrorizer” [MG] (Sqd6) is missing info for Era Early Republic (3081 - 3100)
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/9078/djinn-battle-armor-reflective-terrorizer-mg-sqd6

[nckestrel]

Djinn Battle Armor (Reflective) “Terrorizer” [MG] (Sqd6) is missing info for Era Early Republic (3081 - 3100)
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/9078/djinn-battle-armor-reflective-terrorizer-mg-sqd6

This is actually correct.
It wasn't extinct yet, but only used by Pirates (using Sqd4 not Sqd6).  So it's merely not available to anyone as a squad of 6 in the Early Republic era.

[Sartris]

To add, besides the small number of suits that the Blessed Order used in the late Republic/Dark Age, no BA should have Sqd6 visible availabilities post-3080.

The Sqd4/5/6 differentiations were added due to a large number of requests for non-standard squad sizes so the correct BV/PV was listed (eg a four-trooper Elemental squad). Squad sizes are given faction data only for squad sizes they use.

[Pondering Radish]

I was looking at the DI Multipurpose Light VTOL, and both variants are listed at Rules Level: Standard. However, according to TRO: 3145 the platform has a chin turret, which is experimental under TacOps. I don't have access to TRO: 3150, and I'm not sure if I'm missing a reason why they might be at the standard rules level. I certainly won't cry if they are.

Link to the page: http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/6596/di-multipurpose-light-vtol-gunship

Thanks!

[Empyrus]

Off-hand, MUL rules level depends on the unit's introduction year. By the time the DI Multipurpose VTOL is introduced, chin turrets are treated as standard rules level items i believe.
Tech rules adjustment tables can be found in at least in TROPrototypes and Record Sheets 3145 Unabridged.

[Descronan]

I've noticed a couple type-os on the free PDFs from DriveThruRPG for the dropship and warship cards. Is this the best place to report those issues?

Dropships and Small Craft, Page 2, Achilles (all): Special ability says AF2D1. It should be AT2D1.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/363294/BattleTech-Alpha-Strike-Cards-DropShips-and-Small-Craft

Warships and Jumpships, Page 15, Hunter (all): THR: 2. It should be THR: 0.2
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/363293/BattleTech-Alpha-Strike-Cards-WarShips-and-JumpShips

[ProfessorMRB]

I have a few questions (and possible corrections) about the MUL. I realize that for 95% of ordinary play none of this matters but since tournament play (Southern Assault and the Adepticon BTCC, at least) ask for faction-list composition, it might be helpful to clear up:

The Mercenary faction list is a somewhat confusing/contradictory collection of units. Does this list indicate generic or widespread low-level mercenary availability? If so, should those units be cross-listed when pulling up the same era's House and high-profile mercenary units (because presumably they could afford or acquire them)? Cross-referencing the Mercenaries list with Kell Hounds, Wolf's Dragoons, and the House armies I've come up with some weird inconsistencies. Here's a handful of specific examples but I'm sure there are more:

1) Vindicator VND-1R is listed as available to Mercenaries from Late Succession Wars onward, but not Wolf's Dragoons. We know from Wolves on the Border (Ch. 7, p.64) that they had at least one that they loaned to Minobu Tetsuhara.

2) Kodiak is available to Mercenaries and Wolf's Dragoons starting in the Early Republic era, but not Kell Hounds or the Draconis Combine who could both presumably afford a Kodiak on an open mercenary market, and in the case of the Combine have also had regular conflict with the Ghost Bears and ample opportunity to acquire them.

3) Timber Wolf/Mad Cat is available by the Early Republic to Mercenaries, Wolf's Dragoons, Kell Hounds, many Clans, and even Comstar, but not to any of the House armies. I'm not as familiar with the post-FedCom Civil War lore as the earlier eras, but this seems peculiar, especially when by the Jihad all five houses have access to 14 of the original 16 omnis (and all of their A-D variants), except Timber Wolf/Mad Cat and Kit Fox/Uller.

4) Kit Fox/Uller is available in the Early Republic to Mercenaries, Wolf's Dragoons, and by the Late Republic to Comstar as well, but weirdly not Kell Hounds or any of the House armies. Similar to Kodiak, this seems inconsistent with what the Kell Hounds and Houses would logically be able to acquire.

[Firepigeon]

Alpha Strike PC for Gray Death Infiltrator Suit [Mines] (Sqd4) is higher then the PV for
Gray Death Infiltrator Suit [Mines] (Sqd5)
Gray Death Infiltrator Suit [Mines] (Sqd6)

[Sartris]

Hi, thanks for your questions.

I have a few questions (and possible corrections) about the MUL. I realize that for 95% of ordinary play none of this matters but since tournament play (Southern Assault and the Adepticon BTCC, at least) ask for faction-list composition

Just as a general note, we're not going to try to tell tournament organizers how to run their tournaments, but the MUL was not conceived with that in mind. We are showing prevalence above a relative threshold rather than a has/doesn't have binary. Indeed, if the latter were the case we'd be better served making list of units a faction doesn't have. 

The Mercenary faction list is a somewhat confusing/contradictory collection of units.

It certainly is. Mercs come in all shapes and sizes so their access is going to be very broad. Most are not going to be able to afford a Mad Cat IV, but enough big ones can to make the list (that particular mech was also featured in TR3145 Mercs). Unfortunately, adding even the prominent outfits to the MUL would be dozens, at minimum.

1) Vindicator VND-1R is listed as available to Mercenaries from Late Succession Wars onward, but not Wolf's Dragoons. We know from Wolves on the Border (Ch. 7, p.64) that they had at least one that they loaned to Minobu Tetsuhara.

One instance is usually not enough to meet the threshold. If it can be shown they have several in a source, the availability can always be revisited.

2) Kodiak is available to Mercenaries and Wolf's Dragoons starting in the Early Republic era, but not Kell Hounds or the Draconis Combine who could both presumably afford a Kodiak on an open mercenary market, and in the case of the Combine have also had regular conflict with the Ghost Bears and ample opportunity to acquire them.

3) Timber Wolf/Mad Cat is available by the Early Republic to Mercenaries, Wolf's Dragoons, Kell Hounds, many Clans, and even Comstar, but not to any of the House armies. I'm not as familiar with the post-FedCom Civil War lore as the earlier eras, but this seems peculiar, especially when by the Jihad all five houses have access to 14 of the original 16 omnis (and all of their A-D variants), except Timber Wolf/Mad Cat and Kit Fox/Uller.

4) Kit Fox/Uller is available in the Early Republic to Mercenaries, Wolf's Dragoons, and by the Late Republic to Comstar as well, but weirdly not Kell Hounds or any of the House armies. Similar to Kodiak, this seems inconsistent with what the Kell Hounds and Houses would logically be able to acquire.

As was stated earlier in the thread, the Jihad lists are among the very oldest MUL assets. In the event notes are missing or the reasoning forgotten, we generally trust the decisions made at the time. It would require textual evidence to make any changes. Note that some of tools we have for determining this are not publicly available like internal documentation or developer intent. We try to stay away from logical supposition as much as possible because it rapidly turns into an ant farm of branching decisions.

[Kerfuffin(925)]

The new variants from the just released Record Sheet series (RS: 3145/3150/DarkAge/Jihad)

Are the factional availability’s correct? Or are they just semi-generic and awaiting further update/AS cards?

[GreekFire]

...I'm not sure how to interpret that. The factions should be fine.

Are there any issues?

[Kerfuffin(925)]

...I'm not sure how to interpret that. The factions should be fine.

Are there any issues?

Not that I saw.

I guess a better way to ask that is, the faction assignments are correct even though they don’t have AS stat cards? For the new stuff.

(What you put is intended to be final)