Partial Wing vs Extra (I)JJs

[Arkansas Warrior]

It seems to me that the advent of partial wing technology is likely to see a decrease in number of jump jets a unit mounts, especially IJJs.  On, for example, a Stinger IIC, you can trade 2 jjs for a PW and essentially gain 3 heat dissipation for no cost.  On a medfium mech that uses IJJs for 2 or fewer extra MP, or a heavy or assault that uses only a single IJJ, it can be even worse.  Consider a 5/8/7 medium ( I can't think of one offhand, but for example) you actually gain .5 tons and three heat dissipation by switching from 7 IJJs to 5 JJs+PW.  The same is true of a 4/6/5 heavy or assault going to 4/6/4+PW.  In either case, if you drop a DHS too, you're still +1 on heat dissipation and you save an extra ton.


What do y'all think?  Is there enough gain to start seeing it used not to extend jump range, but to retain a movement profile while gaining heat dissipation?

[Istal_Devalis]

There's a few sweet spots where a partial wing gives you better efficiency for tonnage then regular JJ's too. I lost my list for that, though.

[Diablo48]

The efficiency goes back and forth so you should use what makes sense after factoring in your heat load, but the real terror is using iJJs and Partial Wings together.  An 85 ton assault 'Mech moving 4/6/7 is horrifying (especially in cities [AAAH]), and the things you can do with a 5/8/10 medium are downright stupid.

[snewsom2997]

Here is my take,


< 45 Tons, I tend to take just the Partial Wing, unless it is a single weapon design with just a PPC or something.

For the lightest designs Wasp, Stinger  it is usually better to just upgrade the engine to get more standard JJ and a partial wing to get the +2.

Heavy Mechs between 60 and 80 can usually handle improved Jump Jets or a Partial Wing well, on flashbulb type designs, with only an XL Engine.

Above 85 Tons, they take up just too much space, and you would be able to get better performance out of a Heavy design, because of either the 4 ton iJJ weight, or the 6 Crits the Partial Wing Eats.

85 and 55 Ton mechs, are the sweet spot, at least the way I build mechs, and can use both well.

[Arkansas Warrior]

The Yao Lien is a good example; you can save enough weight to max out the armor while lowering the mech's effective heat burden (max overheat from +4 to +2) by switching from 7 IJJs to 5JJs and a PW.

[Aldous]

So which Mechs so far are optimum?

Seems the Agrotera is best canon for now.

[snewsom2997]

So which Mechs so far are optimum?

Seems the Agrotera is best canon for now.

That one is nice if not a little toasty, the Zeus X3 Variant that has been good to me. There is also a nice Wraith with a Partial Wing.

[Aldous]

Where is this Wraith to be found?

[snewsom2997]

Experimental Technical Readout: Gladiators

[Paul]

Also consider XXL engines, and their hefty JJ-related heatloads.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Considering the space requirements of XXL engines and Partial Wings, it's going to be hard to fit IJJs in as well.

[Diplominator]

So which Mechs so far are optimum?

Seems the Agrotera is best canon for now.

They may not be strictly optimal but the Flamberge 2 and 3 are pretty rough customers.

[Col Toda]

Just like fighting the LAMs in the old days high jumping values and difficult target to resolve . Solution to both Arrow IV .
Hit the hex for 5 Pt's  with luck hit the unit with 20 Pt's in one location for homing .  Using standard rounds is a bit risky for not so friendly fire. More Arrow IV firing mech have started cropping up since 3075-85 TRO .  First was a Catapult then the O-Bakemono and the Anvil 8M  all before 3062 .

[Banzai]

Experimental Technical Readout: Gladiators

I forgot about that one. Gladiators wasn't my favorite XTRO.  And it is a one-off.  But holy crap, that one is scary!  Thanks for reminding me.

[Challenger]

and the things you can do with a 5/8/10 medium are downright stupid.

....that's just evil......I want one!

Did Partial Wings get knocked down to standard rules in Dark Age games?

Also is it a clan only tech?

Challenger

[Diplominator]

....that's just evil......I want one!

Did Partial Wings get knocked down to standard rules in Dark Age games?

Also is it a clan only tech?

Challenger

I'm not sure what the rules level is, but I do know that the IS also makes a (slightly heavier) version. There was a Spider with it in TRO 3085.

[Diablo48]

....that's just evil......I want one!

Did Partial Wings get knocked down to standard rules in Dark Age games?

Also is it a clan only tech?

Challenger

What makes that medium even more stupid is the fact that I managed to give it a pair of Clan ERLLs, a TC, and a full coat of FL armor.  At that point I think the only options you really have are to try to kill it with ASFs which is rather risky given the reach and accuracy of the lasers, or call for orbital fire support. #P

As for the Partial Wing, I know there is an IS version but I do not remember the details because I tend to go nuts with advanced tech when I grab them, although I thought they were still under advanced rules like FL armor.

[Challenger]

Yes, I was messing about on Solaris Skunk Works last night and while an Inner Sphere 5/8/10 is quite restricted in terms on warload, a clan version can pack a beastly punch.

On second thoughts I kinda hope this tech does not become avaliable in the standard rules, seems too powerful when used in certain types of mech

Challenger

[Col Toda]

The best I have seen is an assault with 6 IJJ and a partial wing for a jump of 7 . and light mech with a speed of 8 / 12 / 10 with standard jump jets .The combo I can manage for a light mech makes it armed with only one weapon a ER Pulse laser .
FL - Armor and Reinforced IS . Makes a tough nut to crack with the lucky hit and immune to LB Cluster attacks. The XXL engine need to do this makes the 35 ton mech over 21 million C bill and I need to do mix tech to put in a small cockpit as it one extra ton of armor was needed . It has 27 pts of heat dissipation the jump of 10 cost 20 heat and the weapon 6.It was an experiment with FL armor Reinforced IS and a partial wing do not expect to see it outside of Solaris VII

[Sabelkatten]

Yes, I was messing about on Solaris Skunk Works last night and while an Inner Sphere 5/8/10 is quite restricted in terms on warload, a clan version can pack a beastly punch.

On second thoughts I kinda hope this tech does not become avaliable in the standard rules, seems too powerful when used in certain types of mech

Challenger

Even the IS 5/8/10 can be pretty nasty. A SNPPC and twin ERMLs tied to a TC.

The problem is, as usual, that clan ER/Pulse energy weapons - especially pulse - are so overpowered that they pretty much break the system.

A clantech 5/8/10 monster without energy weapons is far more manageable. Twin Artemis V LRM15s is nasty but not gamebreaking.

[Col Toda]

I Think the SN-PPC with a PPC Capacitor is the ultimate weapon in a C3 network think of it short range of 9 and at true range of 13 can headcap it is even better than the ER- Med Pulse laser which has a med range of 9 and a long range of 14. It is how a weapon is applied not the weapon it's self that makes it gross . I would have preferred the mech above to have the spare tonnage to have a standard large pulse but it was 2 tons too heavy .

[Diablo48]

Even the IS 5/8/10 can be pretty nasty. A SNPPC and twin ERMLs tied to a TC.

The problem is, as usual, that clan ER/Pulse energy weapons - especially pulse - are so overpowered that they pretty much break the system.

A clantech 5/8/10 monster without energy weapons is far more manageable. Twin Artemis V LRM15s is nasty but not gamebreaking.

Honestly, the IS design can break the game even worse in its own way.  Just pile on a mountain of Hardened Armor, a LFE, and a C3 Slave.  The result is a C3 spotter that is impossible to deal with and will allow the entire network to have constant short range mods on something, and with two of them in a company-sized network you can guarantee constant short range mods to any given target at all times.

The Clan design on the other hand at least has to overcome high TNs so you can ignore it in the larger strategic game.  Really, the only reason that LRM boat is weaker than the laser version is its ammo requirements because it puts damage out faster and has the same accuracy as the ERLL version I described (although not quite as much range).

[Sabelkatten]

Honestly, the IS design can break the game even worse in its own way.  Just pile on a mountain of Hardened Armor, a LFE, and a C3 Slave.  The result is a C3 spotter that is impossible to deal with and will allow the entire network to have constant short range mods on something, and with two of them in a company-sized network you can guarantee constant short range mods to any given target at all times.

The Clan design on the other hand at least has to overcome high TNs so you can ignore it in the larger strategic game.  Really, the only reason that LRM boat is weaker than the laser version is its ammo requirements because it puts damage out faster and has the same accuracy as the ERLL version I described (although not quite as much range).

A cERLL (or cERPPC) version is bad enough, but it's when you make a cLPL boat things really break down... :P

[Diablo48]

A cERLL (or cERPPC) version is bad enough, but it's when you make a cLPL boat things really break down... :P

No, the ERLL is worse than the LPL.  There is almost nothing that can respond to the ERLL design at 25 hexes, and the only other weapons that can require ammo to do so.  That makes it effectively impossible to return fire no matter what you bring to the table unless the pilot of the ERLL version is being an idiot because almost nothing can even make the attempt, and anything that can will be looking at atrocious to-hit mods even with a TC and excellent pilot.

The LPL on the other hand forces you to come into range of other LPLs which actually have a reasonable chance to hit, although the one that really does it is the Long Tom Artillery Cannon which has the same 20 hex range and completely ignores the insane TMM of the LPL so return fire could very well be more accurate than what the LPL can manage, misses still have a chance to do some damage, and the LTC platform almost certainly has more armor so it will win a slugging match.

[Arkansas Warrior]

No, the ERLL is worse than the LPL.  There is almost nothing that can respond to the ERLL design at 25 hexes, and the only other weapons that can require ammo to do so.  That makes it effectively impossible to return fire no matter what you bring to the table unless the pilot of the ERLL version is being an idiot because almost nothing can even make the attempt, and anything that can will be looking at atrocious to-hit mods even with a TC and excellent pilot.

The LPL on the other hand forces you to come into range of other LPLs which actually have a reasonable chance to hit, although the one that really does it is the Long Tom Artillery Cannon which has the same 20 hex range and completely ignores the insane TMM of the LPL so return fire could very well be more accurate than what the LPL can manage, misses still have a chance to do some damage, and the LTC platform almost certainly has more armor so it will win a slugging match.

There's plenty of weapons with ranges only 2-4 hexes shorter.  You really think the pilot of this cERLL machine can keep his mech at 24-25 hexes all game?

[Diablo48]

There's plenty of weapons with ranges only 2-4 hexes shorter.  You really think the pilot of this cERLL machine can keep his mech at 24-25 hexes all game?

It depends on the opposition, but there is really nothing compelling him to get closer with 10 jump MP to dance in and out of range based on initiative.  Besides, the real threats are the LPL and LTC which do not come into play until 20 hexes so there is a fairly generous 5 hex band where nothing can get a good shot to return fire.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Maybe if you're playing on a blank map[sheet, but with any terrain at all you're going to have a hard time maintaining LOS from 25 hexes all the time.

[Diablo48]

Maybe if you're playing on a blank map[sheet, but with any terrain at all you're going to have a hard time maintaining LOS from 25 hexes all the time.

Not really, you just have to aim for high ground to get above the cover, and if you are that far out your TMM is generally irrelevant so you have tons of movement options to get to a good firing position.

[Sabelkatten]

The reason I rate the ERLL is less broken than the LPL is simply because even with a lot of bonuses you may well end up being unable to hit anything at all at long range, making it an empty threat. Sure it will rule the world against slow assaults in duels, but if the enemy brought something fast along they can simply force the ERLL superjumper out of range of any effective targets.

With LPLs it can bounce around at long range of everything but cLB2s. Even if the enemy pulls a fast one the only things likely to get into medium range are things like IS-LB2s, cUAC2 and ER-ATMs. Not exactly horrifying threats...

Of course 10 tons is optimal weight for a clan TC, and guess what weights 10 tons? ERLL + LPL!

[Maskerade]

The real game-breaker with cLPLs is that they can be linked to a TC for 7.25 tons per laser overall, giving you a permanent -3 to hit. Which is stupid accurate, and with a range of 15 hexes, you can take 2 and 1 DHS, can run every turn and fire both lasers and still break even on heat. Which is ridiculous. The high damage is also pretty hard to ignore.

In fact, with 5 minutes on QuickMech, I can have a 60 ton clan mech moving 6/9/6 with 2 LPLs and a targeting computer. With 22 heat dissipation, it can run and fire both lasers every turn, and even if it jumps it can still fire 1 LPL. It also carries maxed out armour and an ECM suite, because they're always handy. It'll run you just under 15M C-bills and has a BV of ~2300, but it's a pretty scary thing to face.

You can swap out the ECM and a ton of armour for another 2 heat sinks, at which point you can jump every turn and still fire both lasers, making into an absolute nightmate for your opponents to hit, especially at long range, whilst it returns some fairly accurate fire. It also drops another million C-bills and ~1000BV, making it even worse better, as it allows you to take a few savannah masters to disract your opponents.
Of course, the partial wing is much less effective in thin atmospheres or a vacuum, so whilst these aren't the standard battle conditions, a mech relying on a partial wing for either mobility or heat dissipation might find itself impaired should it be forced into such an engagement.

To be honest, I see partial wings as a niche for light/low-end medium mechs, mostly due to them gaining the greatest benefit from them. They're just not really worth sticking on an assault, especially since the space that they take up could be used putting in more heat sinks and weapons, which is really what an assault should be. Trying to make a fast-moving assault means you end up sacrificing too much weight to that, and so you end up with an under-armoured or under-armed (Charger anyone?) mech.