Author Topic: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea  (Read 2591 times)

Primus203

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Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« on: 08 March 2024, 23:37:37 »
Exactly what it says on the tin my current warship design doctrine is most of the capital weapons mounted on the nose of the ship with a naval laser 55 or two on every other facing and then anti fighter slash pd on every aspect. Example to follow.

Ballista Battlecruiser Warship
Mass: 1,200,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Introduced: 3065
Mass: 1,200,000
Battle Value: 217,009
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-X
Cost: 73,147,832,800 C-bills

Fuel: 1,600 tons (4,000)
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Sail Integrity: 6
KF Drive Integrity: 24
Heat Sinks: 7000 (14000)
Structural Integrity: 140

Armor
    Nose: 310
    Fore Sides: 256/256
    Aft Sides: 229/229
    Aft: 148

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Fighter (100)           18 Doors 
    Bay 2:  Cargo (5896.0 tons)     2 Doors   

Ammunition:
    13,000 rounds of LB 10-X Cluster ammunition (1,300 tons),
    800 rounds of Heavy N-Gauss ammunition (400 tons),
    250 rounds of White Shark ammunition (10,000 tons)

Dropship Capacity: 24
Grav Decks: 2 (250 m, 250 m)
Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 60
Crew:  60 officers, 225 enlisted/non-rated, 75 gunners, 200 bay personnel, 100 marines      

Notes: Equipped with
    lithium-fusion battery system
    1 Naval C3
   3,360 tons of standard aerospace armor.

Weapons:                                      Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                                Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (3,901 Heat)
10 Laser AMS                              70   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Naval Gauss (Heavy)                     36   60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital Gauss
    Heavy N-Gauss Ammo (200 shots)
2 Naval Gauss (Heavy)                     36   60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital Gauss
    Heavy N-Gauss Ammo (200 shots)
2 Naval Gauss (Heavy)                     36   60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital Gauss
    Heavy N-Gauss Ammo (200 shots)
2 Naval Gauss (Heavy)                     36   60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital Gauss
    Heavy N-Gauss Ammo (200 shots)
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)                       900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)                       900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)                       900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)                       900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
6 LB 10-X AC                              12   6(60)   6(60)    0(0)     0(0)   LBX AC     
    LB 10-X Cluster Ammo (6000 shots)
5 Capital Missile Launcher (White Shark)  75   15(150) 15(150) 15(150) 15(150)  Capital Missile
    White Shark Ammo (250 shots)
FRS/FLS (260 Heat)
2 Naval Laser 55                          170  11(110) 11(110) 11(110) 11(110)  Capital Laser
10 Laser AMS                              70   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
10 LB 10-X AC                             20   10(100) 10(100)  0(0)     0(0)   LBX AC     
    LB 10-X Cluster Ammo (1000 shots)
RBS/LBS (430 Heat)
10 Laser AMS                              70   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
10 LB 10-X AC                             20   10(100) 10(100)  0(0)     0(0)   LBX AC     
    LB 10-X Cluster Ammo (1000 shots)
4 Naval Laser 55                          340  22(220) 22(220) 22(220) 22(220)  Capital Laser
ARS/ALS (260 Heat)
10 Laser AMS                              70   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
10 LB 10-X AC                             20   10(100) 10(100)  0(0)     0(0)   LBX AC     
    LB 10-X Cluster Ammo (1000 shots)
2 Naval Laser 55                          170  11(110) 11(110) 11(110) 11(110)  Capital Laser
Aft (430 Heat)
10 Laser AMS                              70   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
10 LB 10-X AC                             20   10(100) 10(100)  0(0)     0(0)   LBX AC     
    LB 10-X Cluster Ammo (1000 shots)
4 Naval Laser 55                          340  22(220) 22(220) 22(220) 22(220)  Capital Laser
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When compared to a star league McKenna to be shown below the Ballista has comparable firepower to the McKenna's broadside while only being sixty percent of the mass. The Ballista also has better all around armor as well as a nose armed design means pointing heaviest armor at target.

Also before you ask the gross majority of the ballistas greater cost is due to having more drop collars than the McKenna as the group I'm making can far more easily replace armed dropships than warships or jumpships. McKenna below for comparison.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
McKenna Battleship (2652)
Mass: 1,930,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Advanced)
Introduced: 3200
Mass: 1,930,000
Battle Value: 194,031
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-X-F
Cost: 30,974,056,800 C-bills

Fuel: 1,600 tons (4,000)
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Sail Integrity: 8
KF Drive Integrity: 37
Heat Sinks: 6325 (12650)
Structural Integrity: 95

Armor
    Nose: 200
    Fore Sides: 250/250
    Aft Sides: 250/250
    Aft: 143

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Small Craft (16)        2 Doors   
    Bay 2:  Fighter (25)            4 Doors   
    Bay 3:  Fighter (25)            4 Doors   
    Bay 4:  Cargo (255400.0 tons)   0 Doors   

Ammunition:
    20 rounds of AR10 Killer Whale ammunition (1,000 tons),
    480 rounds of NAC/40 ammunition (576 tons),
    30 rounds of AR10 Barracuda ammunition (900 tons),
    20 rounds of AR10 White Shark ammunition (800 tons)

Dropship Capacity: 6
Grav Decks: 3 (45 m, 45 m, 75 m)
Escape Pods: 30
Life Boats: 30
Crew:  97 officers, 404 enlisted/non-rated, 78 gunners, 180 bay personnel      

Notes: Equipped with
    lithium-fusion battery system
   1,604 tons of ferro-carbide armor.

Weapons:                                        Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                                  Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (440 Heat)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)                 135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (40 shots)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)                 135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (40 shots)
2 Naval Laser 55                            170  11(110) 11(110) 11(110) 11(110)  Capital Laser
FRS/FLS (700 Heat)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)                 135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (40 shots)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)                 135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (40 shots)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)                 135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (40 shots)
3 Naval Laser 55                            255  17(165) 17(165) 17(165) 17(165)  Capital Laser
2 Capital Missile Launcher (AR10 Launcher)  40   4(40)   4(40)   4(40)    4(40)   AR10       
    AR10 Barracuda Ammo (10 shots)
    AR10 Killer Whale Ammo (7 shots)
    AR10 White Shark Ammo (7 shots)
RBS/LBS (2,700 Heat)
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)                         900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)                         900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)                         900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
ARS/ALS (2,700 Heat)
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)                         900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)                         900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)                         900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
Aft (920 Heat)
4 Naval Laser 55                            340  22(220) 22(220) 22(220) 22(220)  Capital Laser
2 Capital Missile Launcher (AR10 Launcher)  40   4(40)   4(40)   4(40)    4(40)   AR10       
    AR10 Barracuda Ammo (10 shots)
    AR10 Killer Whale Ammo (6 shots)
    AR10 White Shark Ammo (6 shots)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)                 135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (40 shots)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)                 135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (40 shots)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)                 135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (40 shots)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)                 135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (40 shots)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The only way I see the Mckenna taking this is by fighting till one sides wrecked than rolling am I wrong on this? Also I'm doing this as a direct comparison. This is not counting the combat dropships as well as the combined fighter complement of three hundred forty between the Ballista and Dropships in a fifty fifty mix air superiority and strike fighter bomber.

Mechanis

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #1 on: 09 March 2024, 02:00:17 »
So the big thing here is that this kind of design tends to not perform well, because the space rules favor broadside fighters, but a heavy fore armament can work.
As a general rule, though, you should  not use the canon designs as published as measuring sticks; out of universe most were designed before the rules for actually using them were written and thus tend to be pretty bad at it, in universe I just assume that the Star League had the Galactic Empire Syndrome and was building Mobile Oppression Palaces rather than maximally effective warships for basically the same reasons.
This being said, we can still analyze the loadout here in a vacuum, on basic choices.

First off, there's the fighter complement. Entirely leaving aside the fact that 100 ASF would represent a substantial portion of an entire nation's ASF, with only 18 doors you aren't going to be able to deploy them in any reasonable amount of time.
Your cargo bay also seems to have the opposite problem of canon designs, and not be *big enough*. Remember that you need 1% of the ship's mass in spares and probably something like four or five thousand tons of crew supplies, plus extra ammunition, armor, spare equipment, and other assorted supplies - I generally recommend allocating crew supplies and spares separately, then having 5-10% of the ship mass as cargo for all that sort of thing.
Similarly, you have nowhere near enough fuel; a ship that size needs tens of thousands of tons with how fast they burn it in combat.
You also seem to have a lot of SI, but not even close to max armor for said SI? Which yeah ah
don't do that
Generally, if a WarShip starts taking SI damage it's either dead outright or running like hell; and armor thresholds further encourage you to pile on as much armor as is allowed. As it is, this design has the same problem as the "tough" McKenna: all but the lightest weapon bays can threshold it, and the average one can chew through any location in only three or four rounds at most. Not very many 60s in 200, for example, and 60 is pretty common as the damage value of a heavy bay.

For actual weapons...
Okay, first off: it's good that you remember that CIWS/PD mounts are things that exist and should be mounted to a WarShip! Most of the canon designs do not, and this is the subject of endless frustration on my part.
Your choices here are... Questionable, though.
First off, the LB 10. Leaving my usual rant about Autocannons aside for the moment, the big thing here is that LBs get zero lube in the Aero rules, being restricted solely to cluster ammo and an assumed roll of 7, which means those AC 10s are doing all of 6 damage each- and they don't even go up a range bracket like the 2 and 20 do for their trouble. The fact you've got them in hex turrets is also problematic- each bay can only target a single fighter each turn, so you generally want several so you can split or concentrate fire as needed... And so that you can still fire them even riding the ragged edge of your heat capacity. Similarly, you should split those AMS mounts into pairs, because Space AMS is restricted to one engagement per missile attack per bay, so you want many, many bays; this is also more efficient against capital missiles- your present configuration can output 3 capital damage, but 5 pairs outputs 5 damage, because of damage rounding.also, again, heat efficiency and avoiding overkill.

As for Capital Weapons... Okay, so a few capital missiles aren't completely a bad idea- they're excellent flyswatters and having the literally nuclear option is a useful capability-but ten is... Either excessive, or not enough. if you're not going to go full Macross Missile Massacre with the 80+ launchers needed to actually saturate something that has decent AMS, there's really no point in mounting more than 2-4 tubes, in an AMS environment.
The HNPPCs are fine of course- quad HNPPCs are basically the best big capital bay the system allows-but those laser pairs really should be quads (or better) if you want to use them on other WarShips, or singletons if you're expecting to mostly use them in AA mode.

Naval Gauss, on the other hand, is the worst weapon in the entire system, even NACs are better. The simple fact is that Ngauss is heavy as hell as Extreme Range tax but ironically does too much damage per gun, making it impossible to put enough in one bay for effective bracketing---the only real way to actually hit things with any kind of regularity at Capital Extreme range.

Compare the following revision:
Code: [Select]
Type/Model: Ballista Revision   
Tech: Inner Sphere
Vessel type: WarShip
Mass: 1200000 tons
Engine: Fusion, 10000 DHS
Safe Thrust: 3 (3)
Maximum Thrust: 5 (5)
Jump Drive: Compact w/ Lithium Fusion Battery
Armor Type: 3096.0t Lamellor Ferro-Carbide (704/501/501/501) [129 SI]
Armament:
  3 AR-10 Launcher (3 bays of 1, 2 KW|4 WS|6 BC/bay, 1 bay L/RB, Aft)
  8 Screen Launcher (4 bays of 1, 20 rounds/bay, 2 bays FL/R, AL/R)
 42 ER Large Laser (21 bays of 2, 3 bays FL/R, L/RB, AL/R, Aft)
 42 Laser AMS (21 bays of 2, 3 bays FL/R, L/RB, AL/R, Aft)
 24 SCL/1 (4 bays of 6, 2 bays L/RB)
  9 NL45 (9 bays of 1, 2 bays FL/R AL/R, 1 bay Aft)
  6 NL55 (1 bay Aft)
  8 Medium NPPC (2 bays of 4, 1 bay AL/R)
 28 Heavy NPPC (7 bays of 4, 5 bays Nose, 1 bay FL/R)
Other systems:
 Naval C³ System
 Large Naval Comms-Scanner
Cargo Bays:
  1 (10 doors):
    40 ASF
  2 (4 doors):
    36000t cargo
  Internal:
    40000t Hydrogen Fuel
    12000t Spare Parts
      510t Crew Supplies (200 days supply)
    477.5t Cargo
DropShip Collars: 24
Crew:
  65 Officers
  12 Specialists
  93 Gunners
  80 Bay Personnel (Crew Quarters)
  40 Battle Armor Marines
  220 Crew
Grav Decks: 3x 200m
Escape Pods: 85

Daryk

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #2 on: 09 March 2024, 02:51:43 »
Also don't forget Fire Control tonnage for any arc with more than 20 weapons.  The real power of WarShips is that they have two more arcs than smaller ships.  Fortunately, AMS don't count as weapons, so you can still slather those on generously.

Primus203

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #3 on: 09 March 2024, 03:01:59 »
I didnt know you could split the bays or how it affected things thanks for the knowledge I was already in the middle of a redesign removing the naval lasers for a larger number of sub cap laser threes below is revised design. Also according to my math i am mounting max armor im not sure if the difference in calcs is because its standard aerospace armor instead of fero.

Alright so I did a major redesign taking into account advice. Eight gauss replaced with eight heavy nppc. Ams split into two gun bays. autocanonns and naval lasers removed for a new mix. Two bays of four scl-3 per facing supplemented by six individual  bay scl-3 for dedicated aa. This is supplemented by five bays of double er med lasers. Missiles have been removed as combat dropships carried mount piranhas anyways. Cargo capacity is increased to 55k tons. More is considered unnecessary as the ballista is built as the bruiser of a fleet and is accompanied at a minimum by an oiler and replenishment vessel.

Ballista Battlecruiser Warship (Refined)
Mass: 1,200,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Introduced: 3065
Mass: 1,200,000
Battle Value: 198,179
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-F
Cost: 73,116,104,800 C-bills

Fuel: 1,600 tons (4,000)
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Sail Integrity: 6
KF Drive Integrity: 24
Heat Sinks: 7000 (14000)
Structural Integrity: 140

Armor
    Nose: 754
    Fore Sides: 619/619
    Aft Sides: 551/551
    Aft: 350

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Fighter (100)           18 Doors 
    Bay 2:  Cargo (55656.0 tons)    2 Doors   

Ammunition:
   None

Dropship Capacity: 24
Grav Decks: 2 (250 m, 250 m)
Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 60
Crew:  73 officers, 212 enlisted/non-rated, 149 gunners, 200 bay personnel, 100 marines      

Notes: Equipped with
    lithium-fusion battery system
    1 Naval C3
   3,360 tons of lamellor ferro-carbide armor.

Weapons:                    Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)              Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (6,006 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)     900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)     900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)     900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)     900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
4 Sub-Capital Laser /3  128  12(120) 12(120)  0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
4 Sub-Capital Laser /3  128  12(120) 12(120)  0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)     900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)     900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
FRS/FLS (638 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
4 Sub-Capital Laser /3  128  12(120) 12(120)  0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
4 Sub-Capital Laser /3  128  12(120) 12(120)  0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
RBS/LBS (638 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
4 Sub-Capital Laser /3  128  12(120) 12(120)  0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
4 Sub-Capital Laser /3  128  12(120) 12(120)  0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
ARS/ALS (638 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
4 Sub-Capital Laser /3  128  12(120) 12(120)  0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
4 Sub-Capital Laser /3  128  12(120) 12(120)  0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
Aft (638 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
4 Sub-Capital Laser /3  128  12(120) 12(120)  0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
4 Sub-Capital Laser /3  128  12(120) 12(120)  0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       

Daryk

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #4 on: 09 March 2024, 03:06:28 »
Does your design program automatically calculate the Fire Control?  I don't see it in the stats anywhere...

Primus203

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #5 on: 09 March 2024, 03:11:57 »
Yes its something around eight hundred tons per face other than nose which is somewhere in range of thirty k tons.

Daryk

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #6 on: 09 March 2024, 03:15:16 »
Rog, thanks!

Mechanis

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #7 on: 09 March 2024, 09:45:19 »
And just to give you an idea why you shouldn't use canon designs as published, this is what you can do with a McKenna chassis when you're not high on marker fumes:
Code: [Select]
Class: McKenna Unstupid Edition (Block 1)
Tech: Inner Sphere / Star League
Vessel type: WarShip
Mass: 1930000 tons
Engine: Fusion, 20878 DHS
Safe Thrust: 3 (1.5 Gs)
Maximum Thrust: 5 (2.5 Gs)
Armor Type: 3860.0t Ferro-Carbide (524/525/525/524) [100 SI]
Armament:
  2 NAC/30 (1 bay Nose, 30 rounds)
  6 AR-10 Launcher (6 bays of 1, 1 KW|4 WS|5 BC/bay, 1 bay FL/R, 2 bays Aft)
 16 NL55 (4 bays of 4, 1 bay Nose, FL/R, Aft)
 16 Medium NPPC (4 bays of 4, 2 bays FL/R)
 80 Heavy NPPC (20 bays of 4, 5 L/RB, AL/R)
 44 ER Large Laser (22 bays of 2, 4 bays Nose, Aft, 3 bays FL/R, 2 bays L/RB, AL/R)
 36 Anti-Missile System (16 bays of 2, 20t ammo/bay, 3 bays Nose,L/RB, AL/R, Aft)
DropShip Collars: 15
Cargo Bays:
  1 (10 doors):
   20 ASF
  2 (8 doors):
   70000t cargo
 Internal:
 50000t Hydrogen Fuel
 19300t Spare Parts
   672t Crew Supplies (200 days supply)
   158t Cargo
Crew:
  96 Officers
 128 Gunners
 404 Crew
  40 Bay Personnel (Crew Quarters)
   1 spare Officer cabin
   3 spare Crew cabins
Grav Decks: 2x 200m, 1x 250m
Escape Pods: 112
(Also I recommend putting TRO output into code tags- not only does it save page real estate, most programs have that output designed for monospace fonts, which code blocks use but standard posting does not.)
« Last Edit: 09 March 2024, 09:46:53 by Mechanis »

AlphaMirage

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #8 on: 09 March 2024, 10:08:30 »
Yeah or you can get two of these for a canon McKenna or six for your Ballista both of which can only be in one place at one time.

Nose fighter Warships IMO work good for lighter ships as they can put their limited mass to best effect from the nose. Its okay for Aerospace interdiction provided you have coverage elsewhere. That said spreading them out among the front 3 bays and putting missiles in the broadsides will reduce fire control tonnage while allowing you to fire at a wider range of angles.

I also think the Naval C3 is not worth it except on Destroyers working in packs or maybe Space Stations like the M-9 Pavise since they cannot maneuver on their own and need spotters. You have enough firepower and ok speed that anything in range is going to get hit for a high amount each turn.

I think you should mix both NLs and SCLs because you will only get one or two shots at fighters (presuming you are using velocity rules) with sub-caps and having an NL will add a third chance.

You still should have more fuel (like 10x), with 24 Dropships and a hundred fighters you will rapidly run out and you cannot assume that your enemy won't target any Aqueducts in your flotilla (because those are my prime targets for fighter and assault dropship sorties). Remember your Warship is not just a Warship, its everything to its attached armada of dropships, and is likely expected to provide continuing support for planetary invasions.

Mechanis

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #9 on: 09 March 2024, 10:18:29 »
Naval C3 is very worth it to things that want to be at Extreme Range as much as possible - a few spotters can take you from eating the bracketing fire reduction to consistently hitting with full damage standard attacks, which is a pretty big deal.

It's not as BS as ATAC of course, but then what is?

AlphaMirage

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #10 on: 09 March 2024, 10:40:26 »
The thing is that closing velocity don't care about your Extreme range, its a Battleship, it's designed close with the enemy and take hits. Its actually why IMO slow Broadsiders will get mauled by fighters and assault dropships because they are easy to catch. That's why I think Naval C3 was fine on Space Stations since they cannot do that, they need maximum accuracy against approaching targets.

Your enemy should be closing to Long or less already if it can take you and unless you are faster than them they will reach it or evade you. Extreme range is there for closing shots.

Naval C3 has a max range of 60 so if there was one in play I'd just shoot the dropship spotters (which are much closer to me) from outside your Battleship's weapons range or Naval C3 net, eliminating them before they can even be useful. You cannot be as evasive with a C3 like you can on the ground because there is no bonus for faster acceleration/speed so no matter how good your assault or PWS dropship is any decent Warship is superior. The only thing that can be super evasive is a fighter (mostly due to the <500 ton mods) which cannot carry Naval C3.

Daryk

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #11 on: 09 March 2024, 10:58:18 »
At only 4 weapons over the "no Fire Control" threshold, I can't help but think you could upgrade at least some of the Medium NPPCs to Heavies with the saved tonnage.

AlphaMirage

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #12 on: 09 March 2024, 11:18:09 »
Another thing I thought of, you cannot roll over, maintain acceleration or vector with nose mounted firepower. You'd be showing your aft which is typically less armored and with worse crit tables in that configuration. That and anything nose mounted has to deal with the Doppler of your thrust so it will be getting closer, side mounted weapons can presume that under normal thrust something beside you might maintain its range

Primus203

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #13 on: 09 March 2024, 13:24:39 »
Sorry for late responese went to bed. On the fuel dropship front the fleet Im doing is all custom ships and aero fighters are one of my greatest worries. So everything I have is meant to have aa slash pd and everything has armor. All warship fleet no jumpships and the mothership for the oiler dropship below carries ten such dropships and enough fuel to refuel all of them once. I.e. s little over hundred seventy thousand tons.

Gas Can Dropship Oiler
Type: Military Spheriod
Mass: 45,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Introduced: 3065
Mass: 45,000
Battle Value: 13,388
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-E
Cost: 1,295,056,000 C-bills

Fuel: 500 tons (5,000)
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Heat Sinks: 750 (1500)
Structural Integrity: 70

Armor
    Nose: 740
    Sides: 628/628
    Aft: 516

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Cargo (540.0 tons)      1 Door   
    Bay 2:  Cargo (Liquid) (4550.0 tons)1 Door   
    Bay 3:  Cargo (Liquid) (4550.0 tons)1 Door   
    Bay 4:  Cargo (Liquid) (4550.0 tons)1 Door   
    Bay 5:  Cargo (Liquid) (4550.0 tons)1 Door   

Ammunition:
   None

Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 5
Crew:  13 officers, 64 gunners      

Notes: Mounts 180 tons of heavy ferro-aluminum armor.

Weapons:                    Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)              Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV     ERV   Class       
Nose (220 Heat)
1 Laser AMS              7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Laser AMS              7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Laser AMS              7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Laser AMS              7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
RS/LS Fwd (220 Heat)
1 Laser AMS              7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Laser AMS              7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Laser AMS              7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Laser AMS              7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
RS/LS Aft (220 Heat)
1 Laser AMS              7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Laser AMS              7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Laser AMS              7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Laser AMS              7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
Aft (220 Heat)
1 Laser AMS              7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Laser AMS              7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Laser AMS              7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Laser AMS              7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I hope I got the right forum function to save space still figuring it out. Also the ballista is part of a fleet of similarly designed warships I just made this thread to see how good or bad the all nose design was. I'm now redesigning my fleet to be more inline with the refined ballista.

One of the big design changes to the fleet is due to my lack of knowledge of bracket fire rules. My lightest warship class a 120k mounts two hnppc it would be better served with a nl55 bay of four and I save weight my support oilers ,transports and supply ships would benefit similarly.

Hellraiser

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #14 on: 09 March 2024, 14:19:36 »
As noted, yes, a Nose-Only Battleship is a bad idea.

What is with all the LBX weapons?
LPLs would be a better use of your tonnage.

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

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Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Primus203

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #15 on: 09 March 2024, 14:28:33 »
First the ship your seeing has already been remodeled based on advice by the time of your post look down about four posts from start at ballista refined.

Second on the lb-x which have since been removed I didn't understand that they aren't nearly so good in space. They have been removed along with their several hundred tons of ammo per face and replaced with a mix of sub capital lasers and er large lasers.

Er large lasers have been chosen over pulse for range though forum goers may have different opinions over range or to hit chance.

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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  • Posts: 1996
Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #16 on: 09 March 2024, 15:21:39 »
The problem is warship's inability to go backward directly. There is a reason why many ships from the modern period of our real era sets the guns on both sides of the ships rather than front or rear. Such an inefficiency is inevitable for the ships can only move forward, and is unable to turn around back so quickly and/or does not requires to turn so quickly or crash/overshoot the enemy and leaves the target far behind unlike fighter aircrafts.

Aside bearing the additional risk to expose your thruster as well, if I can only spare one arc for the capital weapon bay I'd choose the rear side instead, for the ship could shoot while keep making the distance with the target, thus making all guns on a single side a viable option. Only if there is the reverse thruster on the warship, all nose gun is a quite viable thing for the pocket warships(that is dropship) to cheaper light warships. But as I know they lacks such components.

An another possible exception is when you need a pursuit craft. Such as Kimagure class cruiser that have many guns on its nose as well for its main duty is to pursuit the enemy.

Also don't forget Fire Control tonnage for any arc with more than 20 weapons.  The real power of WarShips is that they have two more arcs than smaller ships.  Fortunately, AMS don't count as weapons, so you can still slather those on generously.

Well, as I know nothing says AMS does not uses the slots. It does counts for 12/20 weapons on an arc, indeed. All it lacks is the crew, nothing more.

Else is there any changes that I did not checked?

AlphaMirage

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  • Posts: 3877
Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #17 on: 09 March 2024, 16:40:20 »
Sorry for late responese went to bed. On the fuel dropship front the fleet Im doing is all custom ships and aero fighters are one of my greatest worries. So everything I have is meant to have aa slash pd and everything has armor. All warship fleet no jumpships and the mothership for the oiler dropship below carries ten such dropships and enough fuel to refuel all of them once. I.e. s little over hundred seventy thousand tons.

One of the big design changes to the fleet is due to my lack of knowledge of bracket fire rules. My lightest warship class a 120k mounts two hnppc it would be better served with a nl55 bay of four and I save weight my support oilers ,transports and supply ships would benefit similarly.

Aerospace fighters and Pocket Missileships are a strange thing in space battles. They are dangerous yes but not nearly as much as you'd think to Warships. Dropping Alamos from fighters on Warships is actually pretty difficult and slows them down dramatically. Pocket Warships get smashed by proper Warships unless they have their own Warship to provide cover in which case they act in support with Anti-Fighter and Anti-Missile Missiles, while they are good against anything but well designed Fast Assault Dropships. Fast Assault Dropships are murder on fighters with a single vessel packing the firepower of a squadron that it can then focus on them to defeat in detail.

Most canon Fighters only have enough fuel for two or three passes against an accelerating Warship due to their need to overmatch acceleration and short weapon ranges. This greatly limits their effective range. Having a slower acceleration can give the faster Warship more dwell time to eliminate them from well outside their effective range. They are however murderous against dropships which must detach from their Warship under thrust and which are very cost-inefficient in a battle, plus add to your collar burden and associated KF drive expense. So its fighters vs dropships and the Warship can do little to directly aid their escorting flotilla against an assault other than intercepting their fighters with your own.

Remember in the great expanse of space it is easy to disengage if you don't want to fight and hard to force the enemy into a fight without being faster than they are.

If fighters are your primary worry what you need are Battlecruisers (with strong broadsides) or fast Destroyers (with strong quarter bays) that can move 4/6 or a Corvette (with strong nose/aft bays) that goes 5/8 with lots of Naval Lasers (for killing small craft and fighters), some N-PPCs (for killing dropships and fighting Warships), and Capital Missile Launchers (for ortillery, anti-fighter, and versatility). At 4/6 very few fighters can keep pace with your acceleration as they'd have to go 7/11 or higher, or their carrier would have to move 5/8 or faster, in order to come within range of your own capital weapons (and death) or escorting fighters.

Primus203

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #18 on: 09 March 2024, 18:25:06 »
Honestly while I worry about fighters swarming me I'm probably now just as worried about a well built combat dropship. Their part of the reason my revised designs are heavy on sub cap lasers though the anti fighter setting doesn't hurt. Below is the combat dropship that's the backbone of my navy and one of the kind of things I worry about.

Code: [Select]
Defender Interceptor Dropship
Type: Military Spheriod
Mass: 35,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Introduced: 3065
Mass: 35,000
Battle Value: 43,684
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-E
Cost: 3,010,128,800 C-bills

Fuel: 400 tons (8,000)
Safe Thrust: 6
Maximum Thrust: 9
Heat Sinks: 1000 (2000)
Structural Integrity: 140

Armor
    Nose: 1652
    Sides: 1400/1400
    Aft: 1148

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Fighter (10)            7 Doors   
    Bay 2:  Cargo (431.0 tons)      1 Door   

Ammunition:
    150 rounds of Piranha ammunition (1,500 tons)

Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 12
Crew:  12 officers, 54 gunners, 20 bay personnel, 10 marines

Notes: Mounts 504 tons of standard aerospace armor.

Weapons:                                      Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                                Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV     ERV   Class       
Nose (582 Heat)
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
5 Sub-Capital Laser /3                    160  15(150) 15(150)  0(0)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
4 Sub-Capital Missile Launcher (Piranha)  36   12(120) 12(120) 12(120)  0(0)  Sub-Capital Missile
    Piranha Ammo (150 shots)
5 Sub-Capital Laser /3                    160  15(150) 15(150)  0(0)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
RS/LS Fwd (226 Heat)
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
RS/LS Aft (226 Heat)
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
Aft (226 Heat)
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser

Also a question can i bracket fighters with subcap lasers in anti fighter mode?
« Last Edit: 09 March 2024, 19:06:36 by Primus203 »

AlphaMirage

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  • Posts: 3877
Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #19 on: 09 March 2024, 19:20:55 »
The thing is that unit costs to much (yes I know dropship multipliers are out of whack, still its what we have) you can get an adequate light Destroyer Warship, two or three big Jumpships, and/or Regiment of top tier Mechs for a pair of them. The best defense against your foes' fleet and aerospace forces is occupying their ground after all. With a 4/6 battlecruiser you can kite it pretty effectively and destroy many of them before they close within effective range. Unlike fighters Dropships don't get a +5 mod to hit so they are fairly easy to hit at range without bracketing down very far with N-PPCs. Thus unless there were a lot of them you have little to fear in your ballista. Also while you are doing that you are imposing severe economic damage to your adversary in the process.

Primus203

  • Sergeant
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  • Posts: 179
Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #20 on: 09 March 2024, 23:39:05 »
Alright so I've taken a bunch of your advice into account and done several more redesigns. First my ships have significantly reduced dropship amounts. For example the ballista drops from twenty four to eight like a star league battleship. This reduces cost from seventy three billion to thirty five billion.

I also shrunk and slightly simplified my combat dropship losing forty percent of capital firepower as well as a similar amount of cost. Secondary anti fighter slash point defense batteries are unchanged. Armor level remains similar as well.
Code: [Select]
Defender Interceptor Dropship Refine
Type: Military Spheriod
Mass: 25,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Introduced: 3065
Mass: 25,000
Battle Value: 40,212
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-E
Cost: 1,839,308,800 C-bills

Fuel: 400 tons (8,000)
Safe Thrust: 6
Maximum Thrust: 9
Heat Sinks: 1000 (2000)
Structural Integrity: 140

Armor
    Nose: 1955
    Sides: 1652/1652
    Aft: 1349

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Fighter (6)             6 Doors   
    Bay 2:  Cargo (Liquid) (273.0 tons)1 Door   
    Bay 3:  Cargo (878.0 tons)      1 Door   

Ammunition:
    115 rounds of Piranha ammunition (1,350 tons)

Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 12
Crew:  12 officers, 54 gunners, 12 bay personnel, 10 marines

Notes: Mounts 504 tons of standard aerospace armor.

Weapons:                                      Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                                Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV     ERV   Class       
Nose (413 Heat)
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
3 Sub-Capital Missile Launcher (Piranha)  27   9(90)   9(90)   9(90)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Missile
    Piranha Ammo (115 shots)
5 Sub-Capital Laser /3                    160  15(150) 15(150)  0(0)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
RS/LS Fwd (226 Heat)
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
RS/LS Aft (226 Heat)
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
Aft (226 Heat)
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 Laser AMS                                7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
1 ER PPC                                  15   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)  PPC         
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
1 ER Large Laser                          12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 ER Medium Laser                         10   1(10)   1(10)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser     
My arrowhead a solid heavy destroyer goes from ten to four dropships going from about thirty five billion
Code: [Select]
Arrowhead Class Warship
Mass: 525,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Introduced: 3065
Mass: 525,000
Battle Value: 105,080
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-F
Cost: 34,773,237,000 C-bills

Fuel: 1,500 tons (3,750)
Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Sail Integrity: 4
KF Drive Integrity: 12
Heat Sinks: 3500 (7000)
Structural Integrity: 75

Armor
    Nose: 183
    Fore Sides: 150/150
    Aft Sides: 133/133
    Aft: 86

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Fighter (24)            12 Doors 
    Bay 2:  Cargo (Liquid) (2275.0 tons)1 Door   
    Bay 3:  Cargo (15243.5 tons)    1 Door   

Ammunition:
None

Dropship Capacity: 10
Grav Decks: 2 (250 m, 250 m)
Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 50
Crew:  42 officers, 120 enlisted/non-rated, 99 gunners, 48 bay personnel, 50 marines

Notes: Equipped with
    lithium-fusion battery system
    1 Naval Comm-Scanner Suite (Large)
    1 Naval C3
787 tons of lamellor ferro-carbide armor.

Weapons:                    Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)              Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (3,770 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
4 Naval Laser 55        340  22(220) 22(220) 22(220) 22(220)  Capital Laser
4 Naval Laser 55        340  22(220) 22(220) 22(220) 22(220)  Capital Laser
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)     900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)     900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)     900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
FRS/FLS (382 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
RBS/LBS (382 Heat)
1 Laser AMS              7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Laser AMS              7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
ARS/ALS (382 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
Aft (414 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser   
To about twenty billion with below modification about a forty percent drop in cost.
Code: [Select]
Arrowhead Class Refine Warship
Mass: 525,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Introduced: 3065
Mass: 525,000
Battle Value: 106,220
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-F
Cost: 20,347,686,600 C-bills

Fuel: 1,500 tons (3,750)
Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Sail Integrity: 4
KF Drive Integrity: 12
Heat Sinks: 3500 (7000)
Structural Integrity: 80

Armor
    Nose: 192
    Fore Sides: 160/160
    Aft Sides: 142/142
    Aft: 92

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Fighter (24)            12 Doors 
    Bay 2:  Cargo (Liquid) (2500.0 tons)1 Door   
    Bay 3:  Cargo (18318.747 tons)  1 Door   

Ammunition:
None

Dropship Capacity: 4
Grav Decks: 2 (250 m, 250 m)
Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 50
Crew:  42 officers, 120 enlisted/non-rated, 99 gunners, 48 bay personnel, 50 marines

Notes: Equipped with
    lithium-fusion battery system
    1 Naval Comm-Scanner Suite (Large)
    1 Naval C3
840 tons of lamellor ferro-carbide armor.

Weapons:                    Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)              Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (3,770 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
4 Naval Laser 55        340  22(220) 22(220) 22(220) 22(220)  Capital Laser
4 Naval Laser 55        340  22(220) 22(220) 22(220) 22(220)  Capital Laser
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)     900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)     900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)     900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
FRS/FLS (382 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
RBS/LBS (382 Heat)
1 Laser AMS              7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Laser AMS              7    0(3)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
ARS/ALS (382 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
Aft (414 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /3  32   3(30)   3(30)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
The arrowhead is one point of speed faster than the rest of the fleet do you guys think I should reduce the speed to match rest of fleet? This would also free up thirty thousand tons.

And finally my buckler light frigate dropping from two to no dropships drops cost from just under twelve billion to just over seven billion.

 Here is an important question though I know docking hardpoints are needed to jump a dropship. However if I have none can I still connect a dropship to my warship to resupply my warship?

This capability is necessary as the buckler has to little space to sore supplies without costing significant capability. A buckler with one docking hardpoint is nine and a half billion.
Code: [Select]
Buckler Frigate Refine Light Fleet Warship
Mass: 120,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Introduced: 3065
Mass: 120,000
Battle Value: 30,213
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-F
Cost: 7,090,144,000 C-bills

Fuel: 1,500 tons (7,500)
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Sail Integrity: 3
KF Drive Integrity: 5
Heat Sinks: 1500 (3000)
Structural Integrity: 85

Armor
    Nose: 69
    Fore Sides: 58/58
    Aft Sides: 51/51
    Aft: 35

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Fighter (24)            8 Doors   
    Bay 2:  Cargo (Liquid) (455.0 tons)1 Door   
    Bay 3:  Cargo (5567.0 tons)     1 Door   

Ammunition:
None

Dropship Capacity: 0
Grav Decks: 1 (250 m)
Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 35
Crew:  20 officers, 49 enlisted/non-rated, 88 gunners, 48 bay personnel, 25 marines

Notes: Equipped with
    lithium-fusion battery system
    1 Naval C3
192 tons of lamellor ferro-carbide armor.

Weapons:                    Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)              Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (942 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
4 Naval Laser 55        340  22(220) 22(220) 22(220) 22(220)  Capital Laser
4 Naval Laser 55        340  22(220) 22(220) 22(220) 22(220)  Capital Laser
FRS/FLS (262 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
RBS/LBS (262 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
ARS/ALS (262 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
Aft (262 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       

Lagrange

  • Lieutenant
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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #21 on: 10 March 2024, 00:21:29 »
For nose mounted weapons, you gain almost-double weapons as long as the weapon count isn't to high.  You lose by being easier to hit, not being able to keep range, a somewhat worse critical chart, AMS/weapon slot contention, and not being able to return fire when you can't control the arc.   

Overall, I'd say that nose mount warships are a reasonable choice if the predominant strategy is "close with the enemy and slug it out" and you spread armor appropriately.

AlphaMirage

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #22 on: 10 March 2024, 00:53:50 »
For nose mounted weapons, you gain almost-double weapons as long as the weapon count isn't to high.  You lose by being easier to hit, not being able to keep range, a somewhat worse critical chart, AMS/weapon slot contention, and not being able to return fire when you can't control the arc.   

Overall, I'd say that nose mount warships are a reasonable choice if the predominant strategy is "close with the enemy and slug it out" and you spread armor appropriately.

I still disagree, you can close with an enemy ship, shift into broadside and wail on them just as easily, while being able to turn and roll or simply pass through with your velocity presenting fresh armor and weapons, effectively increasing your protection by 150% versus a three location forward aspect. The only time IMO you should only have heavy weapons in the nose is if your ship is so light you can only afford to fill one bay with death dealing like a PWS or maybe some Corvettes optimized for stern chases. With nose and forward quarter decks you get so much extra capability but still it's contextual to only having enough tonnage to equip 3 bays with the capital weapons you want rather than 4 (quarter-decks), 5 (quarter-decks + nose), 6 (full broadsides), or 8 (all aspect brawler).

For Primus
You actually do have a lot of mass for just the Frigate with the Buckler, if its meant to operate as a fleet I'd say you don't need more. While you could dock you could also replace those 24 fighters with an 18 strong Group of Small Craft to conduct cargo transfers and support your fleet in other ways like Early Warning, refueling, ECM, AMS (putting AMS on Small Craft does basically the same thing as having them on your warship as long as you position them between the threat and yourself), and SAR. Small Craft bays can also be used to carry fighters if you need a temporary berth for orphaned fighters.

For the Arrowhead, if you want to keep its firepower forward focused why not just split the HNPPC and NL bays between the Nose and Forward quarterdecks while adding another NL/55? You can still focus fire forward but have a wider threat cone for almost the same mass.

Suggestion:  Just add to your overall fuel instead of having a separate liquid cargo bay (your water is already reclaimed and processed). That way your Warship can use it or give it to fighters and dropships.

Observation:  While having many separate bays gives you a greater chance of hit it is reducing your threshold critical potential. Crits can render Aerospace fighters and Dropships ineffective faster than damage and with velocity rules you're only going to get a few shots at them before they blaze past you (and unless evasive are easier targets for standard weapons). Massed standard weapons for killing fighters are better on combat dropships like I mentioned before and you should have some of those escorting your flotilla (at least one for each carrier).

There's a fine balancing match to be had between threshold and raw damage potential. 4-5 Cap damage can threshold some medium fighters (<45) and is doable with reasonable #s of MPLs or LLs. You'd need 6-8 (with ERPPCs, Gauss, or UAC/20s) to get through some heavier ones (45-60). >60 its better to rely on dual/triple Sub-Caps and NLs for the damage potential, range advantage, and versatility (of killing dropships) while ensuring at least one is likely to connect in a meaningful way. You aren't likely to bring down an incoming Aerospace fighter with a single SCL/3 or NL/55 strike but 3 at once or two NL/55s for 11, now that has a high chance of killing or crippling, even the notoriously tough Eisensturm will be stripped of nose armor with 11 capital, which means you can shoot something different next turn or finish it off with standard weapons when it comes near. For your peer defense quad NL/55s are your friend (or PWS with Santa Anas and Krakens) as those can crit into a Defender even if it needs a full salvo of NPPCs to blow it up for good.

Primus203

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #23 on: 10 March 2024, 01:02:03 »
The reason i haven't moved weapons to front left and right quarters was as far as i could read they wouldnt overlap reducing firepower.

AlphaMirage

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #24 on: 10 March 2024, 01:18:42 »
They don't its true and part of the reason broadsides are best.

However, the wider arc to engage hostiles coming in from the sides makes them superior IMO. Its actually incredibly difficult to keep nose on target during map combat unless your enemy is very obliging, you are exceptionally good at predicting their vector, or you ECHO (with the inherent accuracy penalty and loss of thrust) so lots of stuff comes in on an angle just by the nature of the hexes, particularly as you get closer in range.

This is absolutely true when dealing with fighters as they move last in any engagement during turn order and combat dropships go after Warships, thus these threats can position themselves off-bore with respect to your heaviest firepower.

Quarter decks can still engage them while the nose might be able to face an enemy Warship possibly with the opposite Quarterdeck in support.

Mechanis

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #25 on: 10 March 2024, 02:42:19 »
There's a reason why I'm so fond of twin ERLLs as the main PD for anti-fighter: they are energy weapons and therefore logistically light, have Long range, which is pretty much the limit of an ASF's engagement envelope, and 16 damage will threshold any fighter ever made, because getting 161 armor points on an ASF is either impossible outright, or requires cutting down the weapons load so much that it simply isn't much of a threat. Though I will say that single NLs and any SCLs other than the SCL/1 will *also* do so, as well as threshold most canon DropShip designs.the thing with WarShips is they can bring enough firepower they don't need to faff about with thresholding ASF, they can just make them suffer Sudden Existence Failure because even an NL 35 is going to tear any ASF a structurally superfluous new be-hind in a single hit.

And just for reference, the WarShip arcs do overlap the immediately adjacent arcs, if you're pointing your Nose directly at the target both fore side arcs can fire on it(granted, there's only a one-hex line of overlap for those so this is a lot harder than it sounds)

It's just that if you're side-on you can fire four to five arcs at a target. And can play keep-away more effectively, so you can avoid the close range exchange of fire that is instant death for a WarShip.
(WarShips never, ever, *ever* want to be in Medium Range of another WarShip, let alone Short Range, they're just too fragile for that kind of combat. There's a reason why all the canon designs that clear the okay threshold are the ones that are built for extreme range bracketing fire like the McKenna.)

Primus203

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #26 on: 10 March 2024, 03:18:01 »
So the only thing I could think of without a full fleet redesign based on everyone's responses is a heavy shorter range broadside combatant to make getting close an unattractive proposition. So before I head off to sleep ill post my design for this presenting the brawler a ballista variant with enough nac40s per broadside to completely remove most of the armor of a well built dreadnought in a single volley. Fyi i haven't broken the ams and secondaries into individual bay but I'm tired so ill do that tomorrow.

Code: [Select]
Brawler Light Battleship
Mass: 1,200,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Introduced: 3065
Mass: 1,200,000
Battle Value: 311,499
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-F
Cost: 18,551,762,000 C-bills

Fuel: 3,500 tons (8,750)
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Sail Integrity: 6
KF Drive Integrity: 24
Heat Sinks: 4500 (9000)
Structural Integrity: 140

Armor
    Nose: 754
    Fore Sides: 619/619
    Aft Sides: 551/551
    Aft: 350

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Fighter (30)            15 Doors 
    Bay 2:  Cargo (29609.0 tons)    1 Door   

Ammunition:
    3,600 rounds of NAC/40 ammunition (43.2 tons)

Dropship Capacity: 1
Grav Decks: 2 (200 m, 200 m)
Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 0
Crew:  65 officers, 220 enlisted/non-rated, 134 gunners, 60 bay personnel, 40 BA marines

Notes: Equipped with
    lithium-fusion battery system
    1 Naval C3
3,360 tons of lamellor ferro-carbide armor.

Weapons:                         Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                   Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (1,378 Heat)
4 Naval Laser 55             340  22(220) 22(220) 22(220) 22(220)  Capital Laser
4 Naval Laser 55             340  22(220) 22(220) 22(220) 22(220)  Capital Laser
4 Naval Laser 55             340  22(220) 22(220) 22(220) 22(220)  Capital Laser
10 Laser AMS                 70   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
9 Sub-Capital Laser /3       288  27(270) 27(270)  0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
FRS/FLS (1,058 Heat)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)  135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (100 shots)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)  135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (100 shots)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)  135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (100 shots)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)  135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (100 shots)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)  135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (100 shots)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)  135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (100 shots)
8 Laser AMS                  56   2(24)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
6 Sub-Capital Laser /3       192  18(180) 18(180)  0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
RBS/LBS (1,058 Heat)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)  135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (100 shots)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)  135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (100 shots)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)  135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (100 shots)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)  135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (100 shots)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)  135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (100 shots)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)  135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (100 shots)
8 Laser AMS                  56   2(24)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
6 Sub-Capital Laser /3       192  18(180) 18(180)  0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
ARS/ALS (1,058 Heat)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)  135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (100 shots)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)  135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (100 shots)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)  135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (100 shots)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)  135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (100 shots)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)  135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (100 shots)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)  135  40(400) 40(400)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/40 Ammo (100 shots)
8 Laser AMS                  56   2(24)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
6 Sub-Capital Laser /3       192  18(180) 18(180)  0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
Aft (390 Heat)
10 Laser AMS                 70   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
10 Sub-Capital Laser /3      320  30(300) 30(300)  0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser

Hellraiser

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  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #27 on: 10 March 2024, 14:19:46 »
NAC40 are notoriously bad for NACs.   Up there with NAC10's for inefficiency.

Give yourself a Pair of NAC35's in a bay for a full 70 point hit at Medium Range
Or Paired NAC30's for a 60 point hit that reaches to Long Range.

When I'm going for "Efficiency/Optimal" builds like your trying to do I do the following so that I'm still saving tonnage w/o creating any glaring weaknesses.

Nose & Rear = 2 Cap Guns + 18 Standard   (No Fire Control Needed)
Fore & Aft Side Bays = 8 Cap Guns & 12 Standard   (No Fire Control Needed)
Broadsides = 0-Cap Guns & MANY Standard Guns   (Fire Control limited to lower tonnage weapons)



This allows for decent nose/rear fire with the side arcs almost overlapping while the broadsides & sides do all overlap for a "double" array of cap guns.

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

assaultdoor

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #28 on: 10 March 2024, 15:17:20 »
Here is an important question though I know docking hardpoints are needed to jump a dropship. However if I have none can I still connect a dropship to my warship to resupply my warship?

Per Campaign Operations, two Large Craft must be docked to transfer cargo. Fortunately, per Strategic Operations page 54, docking can be done by linking bay doors. You only need a docking hardpoint to carry DropShips on a jump.

Primus203

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Re: Is an all nose weapon warship a bad idea
« Reply #29 on: 10 March 2024, 15:49:32 »
Alright hellraiser I took your advice into consideration and refit the brawler with Nac30s instead of thirty fives for range. I kept similar capital fire power by sacrificing two sub caps 3 lasers per side to keep under twenty gun fire control penalty and added two nac30 in place.

I had some issues fitting the ammo until I decided to drop one of the three forward nl55 bays as this was only designed to support the nose weapon fleet and wasn't to great a loss.

The last change is three small craft with six units of battle armored troops specialized for boarding operations if the enemy closes even more.

The Brawler
Code: [Select]
Brawler Light Battleship nac30 refine
Mass: 1,200,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Introduced: 3065
Mass: 1,200,000
Battle Value: 381,409
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-F
Cost: 18,234,974,000 C-bills

Fuel: 3,000 tons (7,500)
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Sail Integrity: 6
KF Drive Integrity: 24
Heat Sinks: 4200 (8400)
Structural Integrity: 140

Armor
    Nose: 754
    Fore Sides: 619/619
    Aft Sides: 551/551
    Aft: 350

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Fighter (30)            15 Doors 
    Bay 2:  Small Craft (3)         3 Doors   
    Bay 3:  Cargo (27877.0 tons)    1 Door   

Ammunition:
    9,600 rounds of NAC/30 ammunition (19.2 tons)

Dropship Capacity: 1
Grav Decks: 2 (200 m, 200 m)
Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 100
Crew:  65 officers, 220 enlisted/non-rated, 110 gunners, 75 bay personnel, 40 BA marines

Notes: Equipped with
    lithium-fusion battery system
    1 Naval C3
3,360 tons of lamellor ferro-carbide armor.

Weapons:                         Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                   Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (1,006 Heat)
4 Naval Laser 55             340  22(220) 22(220) 22(220) 22(220)  Capital Laser
4 Naval Laser 55             340  22(220) 22(220) 22(220) 22(220)  Capital Laser
2 Laser AMS                  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Sub-Capital Laser /3       64   6(60)   6(60)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 Sub-Capital Laser /3       64   6(60)   6(60)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 Sub-Capital Laser /3       64   6(60)   6(60)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 Sub-Capital Laser /3       64   6(60)   6(60)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
FRS/FLS (984 Heat)
2 Laser AMS                  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Sub-Capital Laser /3       64   6(60)   6(60)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 Sub-Capital Laser /3       64   6(60)   6(60)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/30)  200  60(600) 60(600) 60(600)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/30 Ammo (400 shots)
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/30)  200  60(600) 60(600) 60(600)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/30 Ammo (400 shots)
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/30)  200  60(600) 60(600) 60(600)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/30 Ammo (400 shots)
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/30)  200  60(600) 60(600) 60(600)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/30 Ammo (400 shots)
RBS/LBS (984 Heat)
2 Laser AMS                  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Sub-Capital Laser /3       64   6(60)   6(60)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 Sub-Capital Laser /3       64   6(60)   6(60)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/30)  200  60(600) 60(600) 60(600)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/30 Ammo (400 shots)
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/30)  200  60(600) 60(600) 60(600)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/30 Ammo (400 shots)
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/30)  200  60(600) 60(600) 60(600)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/30 Ammo (400 shots)
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/30)  200  60(600) 60(600) 60(600)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/30 Ammo (400 shots)
ARS/ALS (984 Heat)
2 Laser AMS                  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Sub-Capital Laser /3       64   6(60)   6(60)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 Sub-Capital Laser /3       64   6(60)   6(60)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/30)  200  60(600) 60(600) 60(600)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/30 Ammo (400 shots)
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/30)  200  60(600) 60(600) 60(600)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/30 Ammo (400 shots)
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/30)  200  60(600) 60(600) 60(600)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/30 Ammo (400 shots)
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/30)  200  60(600) 60(600) 60(600)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/30 Ammo (400 shots)
Aft (390 Heat)
2 Laser AMS                  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Sub-Capital Laser /3       64   6(60)   6(60)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 Sub-Capital Laser /3       64   6(60)   6(60)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 Sub-Capital Laser /3       64   6(60)   6(60)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 Sub-Capital Laser /3       64   6(60)   6(60)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
2 Sub-Capital Laser /3       64   6(60)   6(60)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser

The boarding small craft
Code: [Select]
Brawler Boarding Ship
Type: Military Spheriod
Mass: 200 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Introduced: 3065
Mass: 200
Battle Value: 1,928
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-E
Cost: 24,306,620 C-bills

Fuel: 31 tons (2,480)
Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Heat Sinks: 12 (24)
Structural Integrity: 9

Armor
    Nose: 199
    Sides: 168/168
    Aft: 135

Cargo
    Bay 1:  BattleArmor (IS) (6)    3 Doors   

Ammunition:
None

Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 0
Crew:  1 officer, 2 enlisted/non-rated, 36 bay personnel

Notes: Mounts 32 tons of heavy ferro-aluminum armor.

Weapons
and Ammo              Location   Tonnage  Heat   SRV  MRV  LRV  ERV
Laser AMS               Nose      1.5      7      3    0    0    0 
Laser AMS              Fwd R      1.5      7      3    0    0    0 
Laser AMS              Fwd L      1.5      7      3    0    0    0 
Angel ECM Suite         Hull      2.0      -      -    -    -    - 

And the battlearmor which for some reason my program doesn't show the weapons in anti personel mounts but its four wakazashi o-12s.
Code: [Select]
Marine Raider BattleArmor
Type: Marine Raider
Manufacturer: Unknown
    Primary Factory: Unknown

Tech Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Chassis Type:  Biped
Weight Class: Medium
Maximum Weight: 1,000 kg
Battle Value: 224
Swarm/Leg Attack/Mechanized/AP: Yes/Yes/Yes/Yes
</p>

Equipment                                     Slots      Mass
Chassis:                                               175 kg
Motive System:                                               
     Ground MP:          3                              80 kg
     Jump MP:            0                               0 kg
Manipulators:                                                 
    Left Arm:            Heavy Vibro-Claw               60 kg
    Right Arm:           Heavy Vibro-Claw               60 kg
Armor:                   Standard (Basic)       0      350 kg
    Armor Value:         8 (Trooper)                         

                                         Slots           
Weapons and Equipment         Location (Capacity)   Mass 
Space Operations Adaptation     Body       1       100 kg
Cutting Torch                 Right Arm     1        5 kg 
Demolition Charge               None       0        0 kg 
Power Pack                      Body       1       25 kg 
Searchlight                   Left Arm     1        5 kg 
Extended Life Support           Body       1       25 kg 
Improved Sensors                Body       1       65 kg 
Anti Personnel Weapon Mount   Right Arm     1        5 kg 
Anti Personnel Weapon Mount   Left Arm     1        5 kg 
Anti Personnel Weapon Mount   Left Arm     1        5 kg 
Anti Personnel Weapon Mount   Right Arm     1        5 kg 
« Last Edit: 10 March 2024, 15:57:12 by Primus203 »