Author Topic: Attack VTOLs - The New Wave  (Read 4981 times)

Colt Ward

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Attack VTOLs - The New Wave
« on: 05 April 2012, 23:29:37 »
With the TW rules changes to VTOLs and hovercraft we now often say they have sort of changed places.  It definately makes air assault infantry and battle armor more viable as we move into more combined arms play, but this topic is not about the transports.  Its about attack birds.

Previously the Hawk Moth, Warrior and Donar were your most survivable attack birds.  Each has a big(ish) gun with lots of range and mobility to keep that gun in play.  The other attack birds were useful, but their lives were short . . . which was sometimes ok, like when you trade that Cavalry SRM for the Schilitron C3master hiding behind a L1 terrain change from your forces.

Now however, VTOLs have taken over the rushing knife fighter role that light hovercraft used to have.  Now that Cavalry SRM is much more survivable . . . and its bite is worse because of it even if Infernos are not automatic vehicle kills.  Using masking terrain, your VTOL can zip into the rear of some assault and if it packs enough high power short ranged weapons you can rip the back open to gut the assault.  Even more interesting was the Yasha, supposed to be an Omni VTOL- which I hope we end up seeing that version, especially since we have ones in the MWDA material up to Bonfire of Worlds that have different armaments (2 MPL, a 'chaingun' -RAC?  LAC?).

Will we see more backstabbing close air support VTOLs than stand-off snipers like the Hawk Moth or Donar?  What old sorts of Hovercraft do you want to see converted to being VTOLs?
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Ian Sharpe

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Re: Attack VTOLs - The New Wave
« Reply #1 on: 06 April 2012, 00:54:40 »
Preferably ones with MMLs or iATMs, that can fill both roles.  The Warrior's ability to do both harassing duty with the AC/2 and rush in to inferno something at a stupidly low BV and c-bill cost all while cruising for a +5 are what made it so great before it got nerfed to 9/14.

Kojak

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Re: Attack VTOLs - The New Wave
« Reply #2 on: 06 April 2012, 01:07:02 »
One of the choppers that really came into its own under the new rules is the Mantis Light Attack VTOL. The combination of high speed, a surprising amount of firepower for its size and the ECM suite allow it to swarm large targets and take them down in a single turn.


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Jim1701

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Re: Attack VTOLs - The New Wave
« Reply #3 on: 06 April 2012, 01:40:00 »
I find the Karnov (PERIPHERY) model to be quite interesting.  Not a lot of staying power but at the right moment it could surpass the Fire Moth H in deadliness.

Ian Sharpe

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Re: Attack VTOLs - The New Wave
« Reply #4 on: 06 April 2012, 01:52:16 »
Took down an Atlas with two of them through raw damage.

Cannonshop

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Re: Attack VTOLs - The New Wave
« Reply #5 on: 06 April 2012, 02:27:01 »
One of the choppers that really came into its own under the new rules is the Mantis Light Attack VTOL. The combination of high speed, a surprising amount of firepower for its size and the ECM suite allow it to swarm large targets and take them down in a single turn.

Funny, I found the Mantis (prior to the rotor damage nerf) to be THE cure for removing the "Big Gun" VTOLS on the other side-because it had the mobility to close range without going into Flank, and stay on their 3 or 6 o'clock positions pretty much at will, pecking at their rotors every turn until they fall out of the sky. (Usually only took ONE turn..) and it still works that way now-provided you read the fractions as single points.

 
With the TW rules changes to VTOLs and hovercraft we now often say they have sort of changed places.  It definitely makes air assault infantry and battle armor more viable as we move into more combined arms play, but this topic is not about the transports.  Its about attack birds.

Previously the Hawk Moth, Warrior and Donar were your most survivable attack birds.  Each has a big(ish) gun with lots of range and mobility to keep that gun in play.  The other attack birds were useful, but their lives were short . . . which was sometimes ok, like when you trade that Cavalry SRM for the Schilitron C3master hiding behind a L1 terrain change from your forces.

In order of survivability (BMR era) it would be Warrior, Cyrano, Donar, Hawk Moth, and then a choice between fast scouts and suicide sleds (too slow to survive the first round of fire-typified by the trashtastic Jellowbucket, or needing to be "In your pants" like several VTOL designs we can name out of the 3058 book...)



Quote
Now however, VTOLs have taken over the rushing knife fighter role that light hovercraft used to have.  Now that Cavalry SRM is much more survivable . . . and its bite is worse because of it even if Infernos are not automatic vehicle kills.  Using masking terrain, your VTOL can zip into the rear of some assault and if it packs enough high power short ranged weapons you can rip the back open to gut the assault.  Even more interesting was the Yasha, supposed to be an Omni VTOL- which I hope we end up seeing that version, especially since we have ones in the MWDA material up to Bonfire of Worlds that have different armaments (2 MPL, a 'chaingun' -RAC?  LAC?).

Will we see more backstabbing close air support VTOLs than stand-off snipers like the Hawk Moth or Donar?  What old sorts of Hovercraft do you want to see converted to being VTOLs?

Out of the knife-fighter designs, the Cavalry is the one that works for more than just hunting other choppers-it's fast, and the warload works on vees and suits. The Mantis is still one of your best "anti-VTOL" designs, and the Yellowjacket still sucks rocks aside from the Arrow IV version that allows off-board fire so it can't be hunted by other VTOLs, fast hovers, or anything that can get out of its own way.

The new rules made the Hawk Moth a viable attack bird, whereas before it was somehting that had to have a bodyguard to work, and they made the Donar not QUITE as crippled by that 9/14 movement curve, while the TPTB decision to change the movement profile on the Warrior was a downrate to make the Donar look...frankly, Better than it really was-look ye to the engine size and calculations difference between TRO's 3026, and 3039.  Not only did they change the art for the Warrior from something that looked like a combat chopper to something that looked like a Chibi (anime term, infantilised BESM fetish), but they took a full cruise MP away-thus making the newer designs look better, since prior to that, the H-7 was about the best mix of speed, range, and warload of ALL the VTOLs published.

Including designs hyped as "more advanced" (eg the Donar).

Teh basic tactics that worked with VTOLs before Total Warfare still work- stay at arm's length, preferably at the sweetspot where your medium intersects with your target's long, keep your Movement up and stay out of easy arcs, Move every round, try to hang at 'cruise' with a minimum of +4 for your movement if you have the go-juice.  Canyon Carving still works best if you're fast-the less you flank, the less you become one with the terrain you're using to screen with.  Close only when you can either get into an arc he can't shoot you accurately at, or when you can do something bigger than you are in on a single shot or salvo.

Never, NEVER hover.  staying in one spot is BAD.  Sure, you might be safe from the 'mech whose hex you're hovering out of reach in, (they can't target things in the same hex, even fi they're at Level 15), but that doesn't stop his buddies from targeting you-and elevation doesn't count for range mods, only horizontal distance, and elevation changes don't count for TMM, only horizontal movement.  When you win intitiative, you can close, try to cruise at your max hexes-covered rate when possible, limiting elevation and turns to the bare necessity needed to get into your shooting spot.  When you disengage or lose initiative, flank your ass off, and try to avoid sideslip situations that coudl put you in the weeds.

Plan your moves before initiative is rolled-have at least TWO moves for losing, and at least two for winning initiative-why? because even if you're using the VTOL for an initiative sump, and you lose that initiative, you can 'steer' your poor opponent by putting your armed asset  in a spot he HAS to move or be hit.

Shots that hit count, shots that miss, don't help you-again, CRUISE....CRUISE...when you're attacking.  The difference between an 11 to hit, and a 9 is a hell of a lot of difference.  Even a 2 point hit is still a hit, whereas a 15 point miss is just a whiff.  Flank speed is for get-out-of-dodge movement, it's best reserved for when you lose initiative and the other guy has LBX's or HAGs.

Angle your movements-don't run straight at the guy, run at a tangent and turn to face him.  Remember you're working in 3 dimensions, not 2, elevation allows you to ignore terrain penalties, then drop behind cover if you have to, or to skim behind a hill , then pop up at the last second.   VTOLs aren't best used as knife-fighters, they're fencing foils, speed and precision, not brute force is the rule to using them. 

Work in Pairs.  One VTOL can be a hassle if it's the right sort, two and you've got a game-changer, now that doesn't mean keeping them both in the same hex-far from it, use two to pick at one target from different directions, and try to keep your modifiers equal between 'em, force your enemy to show his back to one or the other as often as possible, and it 's good to get him wasting his ammo or burning his heat capacity trying to engage one, while the other is picking at him.  If you can get his whole lance worrying about the two helicopters, that leaves them open to your other ground forces.

When the other guy ALSO brings VTOLs:

This is where the Mantis, and the Cavalry really shine-they're GOOD for hunting other choppers.  Evn if you never get that Mantis into range, he's got to move that big-gun helo of his  to avoid the little knife-fighter with the cumulative bonuses to avoid being hit.  Mantis vs. Yellowjacket, for instance, is Hummingbird vs. Condor, or Crow vs. Eagle- a Mantis can, and will, kill a Yellowjacket on the rotor.  It takes longer now, but it still works about the same way.  Ditto for killing a Hawk-moth, although tougher-the HM still has to flank in most cases for that nasty +4 to his gunnery, which added to his base gunnery and your Mantis' speed at cruise, can usually end up breaking 12's for the HM to hit, while the Mantis  is still in a realm where it's POSSIBLE to hit the slower bird, creating a situation where he either deals with the little harasser, or he runs a very strong risk of dying to it clean.

Advanced Construction Materials (Hardened armor)

Yeah...well, I guess they had to do something to appease the guys who only play assault 'mechs in fixed positions.  Inferno them with your SRM racks from the Cavalry AH or Warrior (or Marten).  Crit the bastard to death, you're not going to strip that rotor with less than a 20 point hit for each point of damage it actually takes, the Rotor-damage-nerf is one of the doofier decisions made, er...rather, ported without comment from Maxtech, the former book of all Canon Munckinism for the game, adding an armor type without restrictions that doubles the damage needed means that rotor has gone from a vulnerable balancing factor, to a fifty point shield, to, with hardened armor, a 100 point sheild (10% damage nerf x2 on a 5 pt. structure).  If your oppo wants to bring in that HA'd Donar from the XTRO?  Counter with an Eisensturm.

Armed with nukes.

See him survive that shit.



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Kojak

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Re: Attack VTOLs - The New Wave
« Reply #6 on: 06 April 2012, 02:50:04 »
Couple things:

First off, I meant using the Mantis against 'Mech and tanks, not just other VTOLs. A lance (or in the case of the FWLM, a six-chopper platoon) can easily slide right behind a slow heavy or assault unit and tear through their rear armor, and the combo of speed and ECM (switched to ghost targets mode, ideally) make it near impossible to hit.

Second off, there's no Donar with hardened armor. You can't put hardened armor on VTOLs at all (or hovers or WiGEs, for that matter).


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Cannonshop

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Re: Attack VTOLs - The New Wave
« Reply #7 on: 06 April 2012, 03:19:20 »
Couple things:

First off, I meant using the Mantis against 'Mech and tanks, not just other VTOLs. A lance (or in the case of the FWLM, a six-chopper platoon) can easily slide right behind a slow heavy or assault unit and tear through their rear armor, and the combo of speed and ECM (switched to ghost targets mode, ideally) make it near impossible to hit.

Second off, there's no Donar with hardened armor. You can't put hardened armor on VTOLs at all (or hovers or WiGEs, for that matter).

They fixed that? good.


On the Mantis in particular: yeah, it can be hard to hit, and all those SLs hitting can chew pretty good (and maybe get some lucky TACs or Head-hits)...but...

But.

5 hex ranges are still too close to be good and healthy for a VTOL operating without the optional ECM rules.

I admit that the bulk of MY VTOL use predates Total Warfare by a decent margin-it's hard to find games when you work night-shift with overtime, and harder still to find games where people will accept anything other than all 'mechs all the time.

Even under the more lethal BMR(r) tables for VTOL use and the old "you have a five point location here-even a Medium Laser will kill you" rule.

Still, the tactics that worked before Total Warfare, still work-they just work BETTER now that we have open-ended TMM tables, the rotor-hit-nerf, etc.

The problem is, you rack up, say, a +5 for moving with your Mantis?  and he's got a Gunnery of 3 or 4, so that's 8 or 9 to hit your Mantis, if his assualt stays in one place.  If he's got LBX's (and really, with VTOLs on the board, who wouldn't?) unless he's trying to nail you with rear-firing small lasers, he's at short range, wihch is NO modifier to hit, when your Mantis is at Medium or Long, all he needs is an arm-mounted weapon and a torso-twist, or to flip arms if he's got that ability.  (Most Assault players move as little as possible.)

AND you've still got to hit.  4 (gunnery for most units), Plus range, plus Flank or cruise.  Range could be 2 (medium) or 4 (long).  Most cases, you're not going to be able to cruise (even at 11+) into a direct rear arc-so you're shooting at a side arc, which doesn't reveal that soft rear armor very well...and if you're in a side arc, that means he can bring torso-mounts to bear.  The Mantis is a tough little bird, but it's a LITTLE bird-less than 5 points for your rotor assembly (2 pts armor, 3 Pts internal structure) and fragmentary damage rounds up (last I checked) so there's that, too.

OTOH, Mediums or some thinner heavies can be in real trouble if you bring 'round two to four Manti to pick on them-they're likely moving (so there's walk or run mods, or even jumping to deal with on his end) and he doesn't generally have as MANY options to try and hit you with, and his armor's thinner-your pinpricks go deeper if you manage to land more than one or two per unit.

But the mantis is really a design that excels at hunting other VTOLs.  For a fast-ish moving sledgehammer I prefer the Cavalry AH in the ground attack role-the reason's really simple, too...

Infernoes.  Burn the enemy, burn him goood.  Cavalry makes Tank and suit elements DIE in pretty yellow-and-orange flames, overheats even Kamper mechs, and do a wonderful job of critting things to death with standard rounds.

For a general or dual purpose, or if I'm dealing with 'mechs, the OLD warrior H-7, the one from TRO 3026, that wasn't screwed up after twenty years in play because someone didn't think BT'ers can handle fractions (or somesuch) is still probably teh best ride out there- 10/15 movement curve, and an AC/2 just right for variant ammo (read: Precision), coupled with a conventional/proto/Elemental killing load of Inferno in that SRM rack.  Used right, it kicked ass WITHOUT the Rotor-damage-nerf.

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theothersarah

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Re: Attack VTOLs - The New Wave
« Reply #8 on: 06 April 2012, 09:24:56 »
It's almost as if the Donar Close Support variant was intended to acknowledge this tactics shift - it goes from a sniper to a backstabber. It's definitely my favourite chopper. And it's exclusive to my favourite Clan ;D

I've used it in a few games and I'm very, very satisfied with how it performs. The mast-mounted active probe is a nice touch. It will get lost in a hurry once the shooting starts, but being able to poke it over a hill or building without exposing it to enemy fire in a hidden unit scenario is pretty fabulous. Then once the fight starts, it's all backstabbing all the time.

Nahuris

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Re: Attack VTOLs - The New Wave
« Reply #9 on: 06 April 2012, 10:53:15 »
I have found that the Yellowjacket is a great design.... sort of like the Hollander.
The moment I specify that I have a 6/9/0 flying gauss rifle, my opponents will actually change their tactics to deal with it. The fact that I can use it to make them change their total tactics makes it useful in my book.... even if I only dance it at the edge of the field, and it never actually fires...... since we usually play double movement, and double range...... it turns into a 12/18 with a range 44 gun......

As for the Warrior, from my understanding, the change was because the original design was 21 tons, and the change was to bring it in line with the other vehicles at either 20, or 25.... although I prefer the original myself, as well.

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ThelVadam

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Re: Attack VTOLs - The New Wave
« Reply #10 on: 06 April 2012, 11:10:26 »
I have always been fond of the old fashioned Warrior Helicopter,, and the Cavalry went from being cool to awesome almost overnight.  the real winner for me though was the Crow Export.  it pretty much proved my concept of the RL gunship.

these days with the LAC being tournament legal, and the infantry from TRO 3085, I find myself experimenting with Transport/Gunship combos.  use a Light Autocannon for specialty ammo, and haul 3-6 ton infantry platoons.  you can drop off foot sloggers and act as local fire support for them.

mensa12345

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Re: Attack VTOLs - The New Wave
« Reply #11 on: 06 April 2012, 11:20:38 »
I was always a fan of the Yellow Jacket gauss bird.  I operated one of those for more than a decade before they got around to adding it to the book.  I also used to consolidate all of my regimental air support into one wing, instead of having it attached to a company as support.  I would replace the two aerospace fighters with six helicopters per company (ICE preferred, for cost).  Once the new tech came out I added the Gauss rifles, and then put in a mix of Gauss and Ultra AC20s when they came on line.  We always played with rolling maps, so it really added to the survivability of the lighter units.
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willydstyle

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Re: Attack VTOLs - The New Wave
« Reply #12 on: 06 April 2012, 12:24:00 »
There's a reason I try to bring LB-10X to the table.

Jim1701

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Re: Attack VTOLs - The New Wave
« Reply #13 on: 06 April 2012, 12:38:03 »
I really don't see the change to rotor damage to be much of a nerf.  I just think it reinforces the idea that crit seekers (LB weapons in particular) are the way to deal with VTOL's.  Plus, given the fact that each hit does slow the VTOL down making it more vulnerable to future damage means any damage nerf is pretty minor IMHO. 

Also, it was my understanding that the old vehicle designs using fractional accounting were grandfathered in and are still legal for use AFAIK. 

I am Belch II

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Re: Attack VTOLs - The New Wave
« Reply #14 on: 06 April 2012, 12:48:58 »
VTOLs are a good attack unit. You can put some nice firepower on a 30ton 10/15 with a XL engine. Just like all vehicles they suffer form the no double heat sink problem, so energy weapons might be a problem.
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Cannonshop

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Re: Attack VTOLs - The New Wave
« Reply #15 on: 06 April 2012, 13:10:31 »
I have found that the Yellowjacket is a great design.... sort of like the Hollander.
The moment I specify that I have a 6/9/0 flying gauss rifle, my opponents will actually change their tactics to deal with it. The fact that I can use it to make them change their total tactics makes it useful in my book.... even if I only dance it at the edge of the field, and it never actually fires...... since we usually play double movement, and double range...... it turns into a 12/18 with a range 44 gun......

As for the Warrior, from my understanding, the change was because the original design was 21 tons, and the change was to bring it in line with the other vehicles at either 20, or 25.... although I prefer the original myself, as well.

Nahuris

I'll take a Hollander over a Jellowbucket.  sure, it's not as fast, but then, I've always been the "conventional forces guy" in our groups, up until TW came out, I never saw or had a Yellowjacket survive the first contact with the enemy outside of some extremely narrow circumstances under which most opfor just won't play.  (i.e. very few people are willing to play a company of UMR-60's on open mud on a big map.)

It's that whole "Survive long enough to advance your pilot" thing-Yellowjackets just don't live long enough for the aircrew to get good at their job, esp. in the presence of LBX armed hostiles capable of shooting AND moving.

and that's ground-bound hostiles.  in a situation with both sides having VTOL aircraft, it's toast, and that Gauss rifle ensures it's toast-it's too vulnerable, and too frikking valuable, NOT to be a priority target.

And I've killed them with Ferrets before.  One on one...with FERRETS.

Even under the NEW rules.

Ferrets.

I've never managed to kill ANYTHING else with Ferrets one-on-one.  That single popgun MG just needs you get too close and anything with a turret or arms...


mind that now, at least, the Yellowjacket has that rotor-damage nerf applied, so it has a chance to be rescued, but there's something distinctly fun about making a 30 ton flying gun run away from good shots on a map big enough for VTOLs to be more than popup targets-esp. with a 5 ton (Ferret) or 10 ton (Marten-which, with the right ammo, and good dice, will kill it outright in one go.)

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Cannonshop

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Re: Attack VTOLs - The New Wave
« Reply #16 on: 06 April 2012, 13:14:33 »
I really don't see the change to rotor damage to be much of a nerf.  I just think it reinforces the idea that crit seekers (LB weapons in particular) are the way to deal with VTOL's.  Plus, given the fact that each hit does slow the VTOL down making it more vulnerable to future damage means any damage nerf is pretty minor IMHO. 

Also, it was my understanding that the old vehicle designs using fractional accounting were grandfathered in and are still legal for use AFAIK.

New Canon trumps Old canon-if you need proof, try finding the 10/15 Warrior H-7 (and variants from the same era) in any build of Megamek published SINCE TRO 3039-you can't, not even in the unofficial units list.

AS for rotor damage...it IS a nerf-your LRMs? only do a single point PER 5 Point Group-and that's if you round UP.

It basically means your VTOL can take (at 21+tons mass) 5 hits to the rotor with a PPC before it drops (50 points), 4 hits with an ERPPC (60 points), or 3 hits with an AC/20 To the rotors before it drops-basically a 'sheild' thanks to the number of rotor locations on the chart, which can absorb more damage than the rest of the VTOL Combined.  Makes it physically tougher than a 50 ton hovertank, which, given that Hovers were seen by a lot of people as "too gosh-darn tough" and that was why THEIR locations and rules were altered...

With a VTOL, you have a mass-cap at 30 tons (not including support vees mind...), making for a different 'mass/effectiveness' spread from other vehicles or 'mechs, but you have a definite 'class' difference in terms of movement and mass, with "light" running 5 to 12 tons, Medium from 13 to 21, Heavy up to 25, and 'assault' choppers weighing in at a porky 30 tons.  This comes mostly from "where do I HAVE to install a fusion/XL fusion engine or it's too slow to live?" at the top end of the scale, and at the bottom it's "How light can I go before I can't install a Machine-gun and still move?" 

The "sweet spot" is 21 to 25 tons-you get the best movement modifier, largest payload for that movement mod, and enough armor to survive a one-or-two level crash from a standing start, and the best protection for your rotor assemblies (2 points of armor, 3 points internal).

This differs from 'mechs, and it differs from Tanks, because when a VTOL loses its movement, it's done, there's usually falling, and crashing and often burning and explosions, and the crew's dead, so there's no "pillboxing" or "Shooting while prone".  to get a VTOL that's more than a slow lugging target at 30 tons, you can't go anything SHORT of an XL, or else you're going to have to accept the Cyrano solution wherein the rotor has more plating than the nose-and you're still running a fusion mill, or you have to accept that your "decent guns" end up being a retread of the Pinto's layout- 3 Medium STandards fed by the fusion engine, and an LRM five.

XL fusion helos cost as much as a decent  medium 'mech, for a campaigner or someone NOT playing custom-munch, they're just not much of an option.

For campaign players, dead pilots don't get good, they don't accrue experience, they're just...dead.  Yellowjackets kill pilots-their own.
« Last Edit: 06 April 2012, 13:39:55 by Cannonshop »
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Re: Attack VTOLs - The New Wave
« Reply #17 on: 06 April 2012, 13:26:55 »
New Canon trumps Old canon-if you need proof, try finding the 10/15 Warrior H-7 (and variants from the same era) in any build of Megamek published SINCE TRO 3039-you can't, not even in the unofficial units list.

Well, Megamek isn't canon so I'm not even paying attention to that.  And it is true that if you don't already have a copy of the old record sheets, good luck finding them.  Even so, to the best of my knowledge both versions are valid AFAIK. 

Col.Hengist

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Re: Attack VTOLs - The New Wave
« Reply #18 on: 06 April 2012, 13:31:42 »
 Best defence a vtol has against the LB-X AC's is speed and range. Sure it'll be hard with a 2X but that shouldn't be too scary in the first place. Besides ,not many cannon designs with an lb2x...
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Re: Attack VTOLs - The New Wave
« Reply #19 on: 06 April 2012, 13:34:41 »
Well, Megamek isn't canon so I'm not even paying attention to that.  And it is true that if you don't already have a copy of the old record sheets, good luck finding them.  Even so, to the best of my knowledge both versions are valid AFAIK.

Tabletop I have to agree, you're right...and the 3026 version's ART is better too-it's not trying to be chubby and cute.
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Nahuris

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Re: Attack VTOLs - The New Wave
« Reply #20 on: 06 April 2012, 13:52:08 »
I'll take a Hollander over a Jellowbucket.  sure, it's not as fast, but then, I've always been the "conventional forces guy" in our groups, up until TW came out, I never saw or had a Yellowjacket survive the first contact with the enemy outside of some extremely narrow circumstances under which most opfor just won't play.  (i.e. very few people are willing to play a company of UMR-60's on open mud on a big map.)

It's that whole "Survive long enough to advance your pilot" thing-Yellowjackets just don't live long enough for the aircrew to get good at their job, esp. in the presence of LBX armed hostiles capable of shooting AND moving.

and that's ground-bound hostiles.  in a situation with both sides having VTOL aircraft, it's toast, and that Gauss rifle ensures it's toast-it's too vulnerable, and too frikking valuable, NOT to be a priority target.

And I've killed them with Ferrets before.  One on one...with FERRETS.

Even under the NEW rules.

Ferrets.

I've never managed to kill ANYTHING else with Ferrets one-on-one.  That single popgun MG just needs you get too close and anything with a turret or arms...


mind that now, at least, the Yellowjacket has that rotor-damage nerf applied, so it has a chance to be rescued, but there's something distinctly fun about making a 30 ton flying gun run away from good shots on a map big enough for VTOLs to be more than popup targets-esp. with a 5 ton (Ferret) or 10 ton (Marten-which, with the right ammo, and good dice, will kill it outright in one go.)


That's part of what makes Battletech great, we can both use our own style of play, within the rules, and be equally right. --- I like to use a Yellowjacket as bait.
I don't plan on it doing more than maybe getting one or two shots off.... but when I send it around with a flanking unit of Light mechs, people tend to re-deploy their entire line to deal with it.... allowing me to suddenly put a Fast Cav lance in their face. It's not always effective, but it does give me an option on the field.

Currently, my favorite "gunship" is a Ferret version that I field with Duel Magshots and a ton of ammo...... weapons mounted on "wings" facing foward, with the option of dropping one for a Rocket 10 pack, or even quad rocket packs.

Nahuris
"A friend will calm you down when you are angry, but a BEST friend will skip along beside you with a baseball bat singing "someone's gonna get it."

"If we are ever in a situation, where I am the voice of reason, we are in a very bad situation."

Cannonshop

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Re: Attack VTOLs - The New Wave
« Reply #21 on: 06 April 2012, 14:03:33 »

That's part of what makes Battletech great, we can both use our own style of play, within the rules, and be equally right. --- I like to use a Yellowjacket as bait.
I don't plan on it doing more than maybe getting one or two shots off.... but when I send it around with a flanking unit of Light mechs, people tend to re-deploy their entire line to deal with it.... allowing me to suddenly put a Fast Cav lance in their face. It's not always effective, but it does give me an option on the field.

Currently, my favorite "gunship" is a Ferret version that I field with Duel Magshots and a ton of ammo...... weapons mounted on "wings" facing foward, with the option of dropping one for a Rocket 10 pack, or even quad rocket packs.

Nahuris

I've never been able to fit more than three packs on a Ferret-did you downrate the armor?
"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."

Jim1701

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Re: Attack VTOLs - The New Wave
« Reply #22 on: 06 April 2012, 14:27:54 »
If you take the base version and remove the weapons and infantry bay you can replace it with 4 x RL 10's.  That leaves you with the half ton of armor though.  I don't think I would go with that.  An AC/2 to the side will kill it.  If I am going to give a VTOL one big punch I would like it to live long enough to actually make the shot. 

Ouchies

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Re: Attack VTOLs - The New Wave
« Reply #23 on: 06 April 2012, 14:36:53 »
But if you don't like your opponent, its a great one off.   8)
I'd be prepare to receive uncouth compliments though.

Cannonshop

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Re: Attack VTOLs - The New Wave
« Reply #24 on: 06 April 2012, 14:41:18 »
If you take the base version and remove the weapons and infantry bay you can replace it with 4 x RL 10's.  That leaves you with the half ton of armor though.  I don't think I would go with that.  An AC/2 to the side will kill it.  If I am going to give a VTOL one big punch I would like it to live long enough to actually make the shot.

I see...


That's part of what makes Battletech great, we can both use our own style of play, within the rules, and be equally right. --- I like to use a Yellowjacket as bait.
I don't plan on it doing more than maybe getting one or two shots off.... but when I send it around with a flanking unit of Light mechs, people tend to re-deploy their entire line to deal with it.... allowing me to suddenly put a Fast Cav lance in their face. It's not always effective, but it does give me an option on the field.



Nahuris


I generally don't like using 'bait' or one-shot tactics, if I'm taking a unit, I'm taking it with the intent of using it...mind that I'm also an adherent of the "Expect casualties" school of thought, and I like "Sherman" tactics when facing Clan Munchkin-Hamster type play.  My primary tactical mix works on a "Plan A, Plan B, Plan to improvise when those plans fail" system, so no unit's truly disposeable, but all of them are to achieve the objective.

Which means I, too, want my VTOL crews to get better over the length of the campaign, which in turn means never choosing a unit I Intend to die.
"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."

ThelVadam

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Re: Attack VTOLs - The New Wave
« Reply #25 on: 06 April 2012, 15:37:46 »
Best defence a vtol has against the LB-X AC's is speed and range. Sure it'll be hard with a 2X but that shouldn't be too scary in the first place. Besides ,not many cannon designs with an lb2x...

Just wait for the Asier to come into a TRO... suddenly VTOLs will be very afraid.

HAGs also are rapidly becoming a VTOL threat.

Nahuris

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Re: Attack VTOLs - The New Wave
« Reply #26 on: 06 April 2012, 15:41:01 »
I've never been able to fit more than three packs on a Ferret-did you downrate the armor?

Dump the Infantry Bay.

Nahuris
"A friend will calm you down when you are angry, but a BEST friend will skip along beside you with a baseball bat singing "someone's gonna get it."

"If we are ever in a situation, where I am the voice of reason, we are in a very bad situation."

Jim1701

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Re: Attack VTOLs - The New Wave
« Reply #27 on: 06 April 2012, 15:44:23 »
Just wait for the Asier to come into a TRO... suddenly VTOLs will be very afraid.

HAGs also are rapidly becoming a VTOL threat.

True, but if a unit armed with a HAG/30 or HAG/40 is chasing a VTOL and expending ammo on it then the VTOL has accomplished its mission. 

Jellico

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Re: Attack VTOLs - The New Wave
« Reply #28 on: 06 April 2012, 16:04:45 »
True, but if a unit armed with a HAG/30 or HAG/40 is chasing a VTOL and expending ammo on it then the VTOL has accomplished its mission.

If a 40 ton tank with a gauss rifle is used to drop a 30 ton VTOL with a gauss rifle I don't really see the problem. Forcing mismatches is all well and good, but a HAG is there for killing VTOLs.

Nahuris

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Re: Attack VTOLs - The New Wave
« Reply #29 on: 06 April 2012, 16:11:42 »
Normally, I'd agree whole-heartedly.
And oddly enough, I have yet to truly lose much in the way of units with thse tactics.
I have found that people tend to ignore things that they do not consider threatening..... especially Clan players.......
It's one of the reasons I have 8 Gabriels....... even if you use the version that doesn't have the fractional accounting, it's great for holding back, and then sending through the enemy at the right point.

Most of the time, the Yellowjacket works, because it pulls the enemy line thinner and thinner, trying to deal with where it is going.

In small battles, I use other units.... but I like the option in a large size battle.

Nahuris

For some reason, my post dropped the quote -- this was in response to Cannonshop not using units for bait.
« Last Edit: 06 April 2012, 16:13:21 by Nahuris »
"A friend will calm you down when you are angry, but a BEST friend will skip along beside you with a baseball bat singing "someone's gonna get it."

"If we are ever in a situation, where I am the voice of reason, we are in a very bad situation."

 

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