The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...

[truetanker]

I'd like a plausible answer please...

If the clans as a whole still have access to HPG tech, and the PTB have stated that HPG is still off line.

And the pony express is the only way to communicate...

Here's the question:

What's stopping the Sea Fox from building and using the Pariah Z? And the QR 243 HPG Relay?

TT

[ArkRoyalRavager]

You're assuming the Adders and Cobras don't see the light.  They are just won't use it on each other.  But I bet they would use it against tainted IS forces in order to even the odds.

They see the slightest deviation from ultra-orthodox Clan norms as heresy. That's how the Cobras got the Scorpions ejected, so they really are not going to condone a cooperative network that deviates from Clan honor rules.

[Colt Ward]

You're assuming the Adders and Cobras don't see the light.

They probably saw the light from canned sunshine.  After all, those missing Blakist regiments had to go somewhere.

TT- we have no idea how the Foxes got things running except it was new hardware.  Further, some Clan HPGs went down, others did not.

[rebs]

They see the slightest deviation from ultra-orthodox Clan norms as heresy. That's how the Cobras got the Scorpions ejected, so they really are not going to condone a cooperative network that deviates from Clan honor rules.

You mean in 3090 they won't tolerate a deviation from Clan Honor rules.  I think the Star Adder's famous pragmatism will win out when they analyze the odds against the four remaining Home Clans.

[ArkRoyalRavager]

You're talking about a Clan that deployed WarShips to patrol the Deep Periphery to prevent "taint". There's nothing pragmatic about that.

[rebs]

I'm talking about a Clan that kept at least 5 exclusive Bloodname lines from a Clan that was Annihilated. 

Breaking the sacred Clan rules they claim to protect whenever they feel like it is pragmatic.

[StCptMara]

I'm talking about a Clan that kept at least 5 exclusive Bloodname lines from a Clan that was Annihilated. 

Breaking the sacred Clan rules they claim to protect whenever they feel like it is pragmatic.

I think I missed something: which 5 Bloodnames and from which Clan?

[ArkRoyalRavager]

I'm talking about a Clan that kept at least 5 exclusive Bloodname lines from a Clan that was Annihilated. 

Breaking the sacred Clan rules they claim to protect whenever they feel like it is pragmatic.

Those Bloodnames are legal due to the Reaving rules. They are "cleansed" the moment they win the Reaving trial. That's nothing to do with pragmatism.

[rebs]

Those Bloodnames are legal due to the Reaving rules. They are "cleansed" the moment they win the Reaving trial. That's nothing to do with pragmatism.

Not according to canon.  It was an Annihilation, not a Reaving. The remaining Home Clans  voted on it.  (Page 150, TWoR)

Now, the Star Adders called a Reaving (Page 149, TWoR), but that got zero traction.  The Annihilation vote is what stuck. 

The Adders did not get their way, so they did not Annihilate the Steal Viper lines as would be proper ever since precedent set by the Wolverine Annihilation.

All of this aside, did you know the only Clan with a worse record of arming their lower castes than the Adders is the Blood Spirits?   Yes, it can be argued that the Adders' lower castes arm themselves, but then the Adders' warriors make absolutely no moves to censure or punish their lower castes for violating Clan rules.

More pragmatic moves.

I think I missed something: which 5 Bloodnames and from which Clan?

Star Adders kept the following Annihilated Steel Viper lines: Grimani, Hoskins, Masters, Andrews, Breen, and Zalman.  So actually it's 6 heritages.  Only 3 of them were exclusive, but still , it's six more Bloodnames than should be kept since the Steel Vipers were Annihilated.

All this is on page 194 of TWoR.

[ArkRoyalRavager]

Now that's confusing even to me. Thanks for clearing up the Annihilation aspect.

As for arming of civilians, there are many Clans who do it when it suits them anyway. The Adders are a pragmatic Clan, but they are still arbitrators  of the Homies and the Bastion faction causes them to be very conservative.

[Nerroth]

So, as per Spotlight On: Hellion Keshik, the Sea Foxes have some new neighbours in the Chaine Cluster... and they're bringing some of their not-Clarion Call-ed HPG technology with them.

[Metallgewitter]

Not according to canon.  It was an Annihilation, not a Reaving. The remaining Home Clans  voted on it.  (Page 150, TWoR)

Now, the Star Adders called a Reaving (Page 149, TWoR), but that got zero traction.  The Annihilation vote is what stuck. 

The Adders called for a Reaving of Clan Steel Viper. Andrews issued a Trial of Refusal and then in disrergard for the rules he pulled a laser pistol and shot the Adder khan (Clan rules dictate that no weaopns are allowed in the Clan councils). The Cobras then declared that the Reaving call is insufficient and called for the annihilation of Clan Steel Viper. the WoR states that the votes for the Reaving got through with only the Vipers and Spirits against it which gave the Reaving a simple majority.

[rebs]

The Adders called for a Reaving of Clan Steel Viper. Andrews issued a Trial of Refusal and then in disrergard for the rules he pulled a laser pistol and shot the Adder khan (Clan rules dictate that no weaopns are allowed in the Clan councils). The Cobras then declared that the Reaving call is insufficient and called for the annihilation of Clan Steel Viper. the WoR states that the votes for the Reaving got through with only the Vipers and Spirits against it which gave the Reaving a simple majority.

It clearly say on page 150 that it's an Annihilation vote that succeeds.  Not a Reaving call. 

I simply feel that this is all evidence that the Home Clans are just as tainted as any Clan they voted to Abjure.  Pretty much all of them - Cobras, Stone Lions, Coyotes, Adders and even the Scorpions - have at least one if not more Steel Viper Bloodnames after that. 

[Colt Ward]

Well . . . there is a case issue . . .

Did those Clans have Steel Viper bloodnamed abathka?  If so, then on the Clan principle of might makes right, they could gain control for their new Clan of that bloodhouse like the Warden Wolves starting up Jaguar bloodhouses using the bloodnamed they took as abathka during TF Bulldog.

Although this does raise a new interesting point . . . none of the Home Clans had Kerensky abathka, and the Coyotes that had Kufahl-Kerensky (A) bloodlines were not deemed good enough to re-start that Bloodhouse.  And the remaining Clans during the Reavings did not get a sample from Aleksander's body?

[rebs]

Well . . . there is a case issue . . .

Did those Clans have Steel Viper bloodnamed abathka?  If so, then on the Clan principle of might makes right, they could gain control for their new Clan of that bloodhouse like the Warden Wolves starting up Jaguar bloodhouses using the bloodnamed they took as abathka during TF Bulldog.

Although this does raise a new interesting point . . . none of the Home Clans had Kerensky abathka, and the Coyotes that had Kufahl-Kerensky (A) bloodlines were not deemed good enough to re-start that Bloodhouse.  And the remaining Clans during the Reavings did not get a sample from Aleksander's body?

Most of the bloodnames I mentioned were listed as exclusive to the Steel Vipers.  Of the Star Adders haul, only Hoskins was not exclusive.

Zalman, Masters, Grimani, Andrews and Breen were all exclusive. 

[Arkansas Warrior]

Well . . . there is a case issue . . .

Did those Clans have Steel Viper bloodnamed abathka?  If so, then on the Clan principle of might makes right, they could gain control for their new Clan of that bloodhouse like the Warden Wolves starting up Jaguar bloodhouses using the bloodnamed they took as abathka during TF Bulldog.

Although this does raise a new interesting point . . . none of the Home Clans had Kerensky abathka, and the Coyotes that had Kufahl-Kerensky (A) bloodlines were not deemed good enough to re-start that Bloodhouse.  And the remaining Clans during the Reavings did not get a sample from Aleksander's body?

No Kerensky lines, but the Coyotes did get Winson genes from the Wolves on their way out.

[Colt Ward]

The Bloodname can be exclusive to the Clan yet have Bloodnamed warriors in other clans as abathka.  See Michael Ward in the Jaguars during the Invasion, saKhan Marco Hall of the Invasion/Warden Wolves from the Ghost Bears, Star Colonel crazy Kerensky chick of the Jade Falcons, Khan Jake Kabrinski of the Hell's Horses from the Ghost Bears, and a few others.

The thing is IF those Bloodname warriors have their Clan wiped out, the Clans they reside in can by assume control of the Bloodhouse by default.  So, sort of question is . . . did the Adders have a Star Commander Joey Zalman, a abathka . . . I guess from before they had a IS OZ?  or never stationed in the OZ? that would let them take control of it while sidestepping some issues.

Just reinforces that what is supposed to be a central component of Clan politics- Bloodnames & Bloodhouses- gets largely ignored in the writing.

AW-  One of the special Wolf/Coyote agreements was regular Kahful/(A) Kerensky pairings, for the Coyotes Dana Kahful was the maternal donor while for the Wolves (A) Kerensky was the maternal donor.  SO . . . the Coyotes would have some half (A) Kerensky warriors running around, and more than any other Clan have Kerensky genes mixed in.

[rebs]

Absolutely true.  Even the freaking Fire Mandrills, of all Clans, have had access to the Kerensky legacy at least some time in the past (see Amanda Carrol's write-up in TWoR for details). 

But whether it was ignored, or not intended by the author, I'm just going by the details of canon.

Besides, there is no support that the Vipers were being stripped of heritages or forced to share them before their inevitable Annihilation. 

In fact, the evidence of the "Open Annihilation" speaks volumes: the rest of the Clans were scared of facing the Vipers in a Trial.  Even the mighty Star Adders would not go it alone.

And because we're really talking about how the Adders are highly pragmatic,  the most pragmatic thing the Adders ever did was taking the completely unprecedented step of opening an Annihilation up to every Clan in the Home Worlds.   

[Colt Ward]

You are missing it . . . it is not the Vipers being stripped, it is that a Clan is destroyed and the only remaining bloodname carriers of what was a previously exclusive Bloodhouse belong to another Clan.

The Star Adder's abathka Star Commander Joey Zalman is the last living holder among the Homies (forget the tainted Bloodnamed that are Falcon abathka).  Literally nothing remains to prevent Star Commander Joey Zalman from declaring that he is now the Bloodhouse Leader and defending a pro forma Trial of Possession against the Star Adder leadership for the bloodhouse and it's legacies.  Bam, Star Commander Zalman is 'defeated' and now the Star Adders- having the only living representative- control the Zalman Blood House . . . they reave all the bloodheritages taking part in the Invasion or created afterwards, and have thus flushed the taint away.

The Warden Wolves did this with their Jaguar abathka restoring the Bloodhouses of those who had Bloodnames though we do not get a lot of details except a Weaver fought in a Trial of Propagation on Solaris as part of the Crusader Wolves to expand the count . . . which was odd, since it is a 'exclusive' Bloodhouse of the Warden Wolves.

A Blood House stands in some ways apart from a Clan.  While the Wolverines had some of their genes snuck into Ghost Bear sibkos, and those warriors committed surkai, we do not have any other stories about that sort of thing happening.  Besides, did the remaining Homies wipe out the abathka they had from the Vipers or other Clans they voted to Annihilate?  What about the first generation of breeding exchanges?  second generation?  third?  fourth?

[Arkansas Warrior]

The Bloodname can be exclusive to the Clan yet have Bloodnamed warriors in other clans as abathka.  See Michael Ward in the Jaguars during the Invasion, saKhan Marco Hall of the Invasion/Warden Wolves from the Ghost Bears, Star Colonel crazy Kerensky chick of the Jade Falcons, Khan Jake Kabrinski of the Hell's Horses from the Ghost Bears, and a few others.

The thing is IF those Bloodname warriors have their Clan wiped out, the Clans they reside in can by assume control of the Bloodhouse by default.  So, sort of question is . . . did the Adders have a Star Commander Joey Zalman, a abathka . . . I guess from before they had a IS OZ?  or never stationed in the OZ? that would let them take control of it while sidestepping some issues.

Just reinforces that what is supposed to be a central component of Clan politics- Bloodnames & Bloodhouses- gets largely ignored in the writing.

AW-  One of the special Wolf/Coyote agreements was regular Kahful/(A) Kerensky pairings, for the Coyotes Dana Kahful was the maternal donor while for the Wolves (A) Kerensky was the maternal donor.  SO . . . the Coyotes would have some half (A) Kerensky warriors running around, and more than any other Clan have Kerensky genes mixed in.

Right, I know that.  I’m saying that no one in the Homeworlds can use pure Kerensky genes anymore, even if they have many warriors with Kerensky ancestry.  But they do have samples of the Winson genes they can use.

[rebs]

You are missing it . . . it is not the Vipers being stripped, it is that a Clan is destroyed and the only remaining bloodname carriers of what was a previously exclusive Bloodhouse belong to another Clan.

The Star Adder's abathka Star Commander Joey Zalman is the last living holder among the Homies (forget the tainted Bloodnamed that are Falcon abathka).  Literally nothing remains to prevent Star Commander Joey Zalman from declaring that he is now the Bloodhouse Leader and defending a pro forma Trial of Possession against the Star Adder leadership for the bloodhouse and it's legacies.  Bam, Star Commander Zalman is 'defeated' and now the Star Adders- having the only living representative- control the Zalman Blood House . . . they reave all the bloodheritages taking part in the Invasion or created afterwards, and have thus flushed the taint away.

The Warden Wolves did this with their Jaguar abathka restoring the Bloodhouses of those who had Bloodnames though we do not get a lot of details except a Weaver fought in a Trial of Propagation on Solaris as part of the Crusader Wolves to expand the count . . . which was odd, since it is a 'exclusive' Bloodhouse of the Warden Wolves.

A Blood House stands in some ways apart from a Clan.  While the Wolverines had some of their genes snuck into Ghost Bear sibkos, and those warriors committed surkai, we do not have any other stories about that sort of thing happening.  Besides, did the remaining Homies wipe out the abathka they had from the Vipers or other Clans they voted to Annihilate?  What about the first generation of breeding exchanges?  second generation?  third?  fourth?

The only thing I'm missing is canonical evidence that this happened on a wide scale. 

And, in the cases of the Coyotes, Cobras, and Stone Lions, how did they get warriors from only one or two bloodhouses (again mostly exclusive legacies), and not a greater mix of heritages as should be expected in your theory?  A lot of amazing coincidences have to occur. 

And we were told nothing about even a hint of this going on during the Reavings, or in the books prior to TWoR.  If the Steel Vipers were losing Trials, the Sharfox Watch would have reported it in glee.

It's your table.  I'm just going by what canon says.

[Colt Ward]

No, you are saying they violated the 'laws' by taking control of those Bloodhouses.  I offer a alternate theory in that it follows another actual canon example.

Weaver was a Smoke Jaguar exclusive Bloodname.  Warden Wolves took several bloodnamed Weavers in Op Bulldog.  Weaver Bloodhouse is set up among Warden Wolves post-Bulldog after the Jaguars ceased to be a functional entity.  Crusader Wolves recognize Weaver Bloodname holder, let him fight to expand the Bloodname count in 3149's Reaving/Propagation trials- before discovering the Fidelis secret too.

Of course, they could have pulled a Cloud Cobra- which is another canon example/option.  As the coalition of Annihilating Clans are grinding down the Vipers, they could have executed Trials of Possession against the Vipers for maternal rights to certain heritages.  Vipers get wiped out, no one Bloodnamed from those Houses survive, letting the Clan that has maternal rights to heritages become the new de facto Clan controlling those Bloodhouses if they restart them by breeding new sibkos . . . or letting unBlooded from those Bloodhouses fight for a now vacant Bloodname.

The Weaver line of reasoning just follows Occum's Razor as the least steps.

[rebs]

No, you are saying they violated the 'laws' by taking control of those Bloodhouses.  I offer a alternate theory in that it follows another actual canon example.

Weaver was a Smoke Jaguar exclusive Bloodname.  Warden Wolves took several bloodnamed Weavers in Op Bulldog.  Weaver Bloodhouse is set up among Warden Wolves post-Bulldog after the Jaguars ceased to be a functional entity.  Crusader Wolves recognize Weaver Bloodname holder, let him fight to expand the Bloodname count in 3149's Reaving/Propagation trials- before discovering the Fidelis secret too.

Of course, they could have pulled a Cloud Cobra- which is another canon example/option.  As the coalition of Annihilating Clans are grinding down the Vipers, they could have executed Trials of Possession against the Vipers for maternal rights to certain heritages.  Vipers get wiped out, no one Bloodnamed from those Houses survive, letting the Clan that has maternal rights to heritages become the new de facto Clan controlling those Bloodhouses if they restart them by breeding new sibkos . . . or letting unBlooded from those Bloodhouses fight for a now vacant Bloodname.

The Weaver line of reasoning just follows Occum's Razor as the least steps.

Exactly.

I am saying the Adders and the rest of the Home Clans broke Clan Law^TM

I am further saying they are as tainted^TM as any Clan they Abjured.

As presented by canon, this is sound.  A theory based on amazing coincidences over a period of about 15 years is less so. 

I'm not saying you are wrong.  But I am in disagreement. 

The Homies being as bad as everyone else makes the story better, I feel. 

[rebs]

Also a note regarding Occam's Razor...

Simplest solution:  Homies broke Clan Law during the Wars of Reaving when it was convenient to do so. 

Evidence: page 150 and 195 of TWoR.

Rube Goldberg solution: Amazing coincidences NOT noted in canon occuring over a 15 year timeframe.  Everyone picks up Bloodname heritages from Steel Viper, but it's confined in a way that even after a very long time by Clan warrior standard everyone except the Star Adders have only one or two Bloodnames from the Vipers, despite units not being homogenous.

Evidence: Not found in TWoR.  Not even a single sentence.  It's extrapolation from older sourcebooks back when Clans followed Clan Law. 

Occam's Razor favors me.

The Wars of Reaving is about the meaninglessness of Clan Law when it comes down to it.  The Homies breaking Clan Law when they felt like it is entirely within character.

Pragmatism is what it boils down to.  The Home Clan Genepool is dwindling to a filthy puddle, and that is a fact. The Home Clans did not wish to waste/lose ANOTHER batch of 40 Blood Heritages.  So, they conveniently ignored established law with regard to Trials of Annihilation.

[Metallgewitter]

It clearly say on page 150 that it's an Annihilation vote that succeeds.  Not a Reaving call. 

I simply feel that this is all evidence that the Home Clans are just as tainted as any Clan they voted to Abjure.  Pretty much all of them - Cobras, Stone Lions, Coyotes, Adders and even the Scorpions - have at least one if not more Steel Viper Bloodnames after that.

I quote from the book, page 150

Seconded by SaKhan Banaceck the motion went to an immediate vote. The Reaving Call passes with a simple majority; only the Blood Spirit opposed the measure alongside the Vipers. Andrews declared a Trial of Refusal which n'Buta accepted offering to fight unaugmented as Andrews bid himself in his defense.

So yeah the Reaving Call got it's majority but thanks to Andrews actions the Cobras upped the ante by declaring a trial of annihilation

Quote: "A simple Reaving will not do. The Cloud Cobras call for an annihilation of Clan Steel Viper"

And I agree the Wars of Reaving were less about the taint but more of a supremacy war on who could dictate what being clan actually is. The Adders had a long term plan and used the Vipers as a blunt weapon to remove the stronger IS clans

[rebs]

I quote from the book, page 150

Seconded by SaKhan Banaceck the motion went to an immediate vote. The Reaving Call passes with a simple majority; only the Blood Spirit opposed the measure alongside the Vipers. Andrews declared a Trial of Refusal which n'Buta accepted offering to fight unaugmented as Andrews bid himself in his defense.

So yeah the Reaving Call got it's majority but thanks to Andrews actions the Cobras upped the ante by declaring a trial of annihilation

Quote: "A simple Reaving will not do. The Cloud Cobras call for an annihilation of Clan Steel Viper"

And I agree the Wars of Reaving were less about the taint but more of a supremacy war on who could dictate what being clan actually is. The Adders had a long term plan and used the Vipers as a blunt weapon to remove the stronger IS clans

Page 150 of The Wars of Reaving says Khan Hollyann Kardaan said "a simple Reaving will not do" and called for an Annihilation, which Banacek seconded.

[Colt Ward]

Evidence: Not found in TWoR.  Not even a single sentence.  It's extrapolation from older sourcebooks back when Clans followed Clan Law. 

No, you are just betting against the probability anyone of those 5 Bloodhouses were found in what would become the Homies.  The Weaver bit is the canonization of Herb's statement that the Warden Wolves could have stated what had been Jaguar exclusive Bloodhouses.

It comes down to if you think they would violate Clan law after just killing off or kicking out folks who violated Clan law.  Not saying they cannot be hypocritical (it is the one human constant), but it opens things up for them to follow the Viper's path- go from the top to getting devoured.

[rebs]

Yes.  I think hypocrisy was rampant among the Clans in that era, you bet.  You don't.  Not a problem. :thumbsup:

I still have never seen anywhere in all the texts about the Clans anything about Steel Viper sharing basically ALL of their exclusive heritages. 

You said above that the authors ignore trading bloodline activity.  I heavily disagree.  The authors know exactly what they are doing. 

Beating Andrews to death was against Clan law, so was keeping all of the Blood Heritages of a Clan that was Annihilated.  Both of those are shown in the text in question.  (TWoR)

That is my evidence.

Using existing examples like Andery Kerensky and Dana Kuhahl are documented.  I totally agree with you that those happened.  But when you use them to try to prove things that are not in canon, it's just incorrect.

I am not the judge, canon is the judge.

You'll never convince me that the evidence I see is wrong without providing evidence to support your claim.

[Mendrugo]

The “Bloodnames and the Great Reavings” article in Shrapnel #3 addresses situations like this.

After the 3095 Edict of Severance, any abtakha Bloodnamed (and those as yet unnamed but eligible as part of the Bloodhouse) of a Homeworld Clan in the Inner Sphere were empowered to have their own Bloodhouse of that name, with 10 slots to start with.  So if there were five Bloodnamed Breens in the Inner Sphere in 3095, they would take command of the Breen Bloodhouse as a separate entity from anything existing (or Annihilated) in the Homeworlds.  Non Bloodnamed warriors who could claim Breen descent on either side (a break with tradition) could Trial for the remaining five slots.

This would have applied to any Bloodhouse that didn’t transition to the Inner Sphere but had any genetic presence among the Clans that did.

[rebs]

Thanks, Mendrugo.  I'll re-read that article.

Also... I'll be the first to admit that I should not let myself get so wrapped up in a game.  Games are supposed to be fun. 

Disagreeing like this back and forth, not so much. 

It's a discussion, not a life-or-death debate in front of the Grand Council where someone will be Reaved and their Blood Heritage tossed into a fire if they are wrong. 

@Colt, you are not wrong about how Clan law works, I just feel the Home Clans point fingers a lot but are actually highly hypocritical.  I'll say nothing else on the matter, lest we get locked and moderated to death.