Artillery templates placed on high TMM units

[MikeLSU]

IMO allowing an artillery unit or anything using a template to place a template on a fast moving/high TMM unit by targetting a point near the mech is a weak rule in an otherwise strong game. The point you are targetting moves in relation to the mech just as fast as the mech is moving. My recommendation is to add the highest TMM of all mechs under the template to the firing role. If it misses, scatter as usual. If aiming at politely stationary and grouped mechs there is no effect on aim as TMMs are 0; the point of reference is not moving.

I did a search for a similar discussion and did not see it. Apologies if there is one out there already.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

It's not a bug; it's a feature.

That's exactly how they want it to work.

Given the all-or-nothing nature of Alpha Strike attacks, I rather like having a counter to high-TMM targets that are a PITA to kill conventionally.

[Scotty]

I'm of two minds about it.  On the one hand, high TMM lights otherwise have no natural predators.  As someone who's used (and abused) them for years, it's definitely something necessary in order to even the playing field.

At the same time, I think it's a bit too easy.  I don't think there's a really clean way to fix it, but getting to "lead" the target after it's already moved is skipping what makes leading a target actually difficult. 

[Tai Dai Cultist]

I'm of two minds about it.  On the one hand, high TMM lights otherwise have no natural predators.  As someone who's used (and abused) them for years, it's definitely something necessary in order to even the playing field.

At the same time, I think it's a bit too easy.  I don't think there's a really clean way to fix it, but getting to "lead" the target after it's already moved is skipping what makes leading a target actually difficult.

If you do the popular house rule of rolling to hit for each pip of damage, maybe you don't also need the TMM ignoring AoE templates.  But that's delving into house rules.

[Scotty]

Not only that, it doesn't actually change the problem, because single points of damage still don't scare most of the things worth abusing.

I don't frequently go into those threads telling people they're doing it wrong, but we have tried it at our tables.  It didn't change much.

[Thunder]

The biggest change caused by rolling tohit rolls for each point of damage is excessive damage potential turns into effective damage.

Aka.  A 6 damage attack vs something evassive with 2 total armor and structure.  Instead of an all or nothing attack with 4 damage potentially wasted,  the odds of getting at least some damage on target improve thanks to the extra dice rolls.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

The biggest change caused by rolling tohit rolls for each point of damage is excessive damage potential turns into effective damage.

Aka.  A 6 damage attack vs something evassive with 2 total armor and structure.  Instead of an all or nothing attack with 4 damage potentially wasted,  the odds of getting at least some damage on target improve thanks to the extra dice rolls.

Yes the house rule makes it easier to kill a mosquito with a sledgehammer.

It's a separate issue as to whether you should be using a sledgehammer for that job in the first place.  As Scotty said, he's tried that house rule and despite how the math works on paper, in the end it didn't actually affect the game much.  I can't say why as I haven't tried the house rule myself, but I can hypothesize a couple reasons.  One: why use a massive damage unit to kill something with only 2 pips- AS is a game of allocating your precious resources and that's a pretty sloppy misallocation of resources. Two: There's the AoE templates that are the central focus of the thread.  Why waste 6 damage shooting at the high-tmm target when you can just ignore the TMM?  Possible Third: Under the new PV system, small/fast/High TMM units have already been nerfed in power.  There's less of them in play now, and correspondingly being able to handle them is less important.

[Scotty]

The other answer is that I personally favored beefier fast things like Gyrfalcons, Uziel 8S, Gunsmiths (do not mock the RFA!) that struggle to find a reason to care about one or two damage because they can comfortably keep fighting after five or six but still manage to have +4 mods or better.

[Descronan]

Artillery in AS makes no sense and is inconsistent. There should be a T# to hit the POI (immobile) and that same role should be used to determine if you hit the units that moved into the target zone.

The whole idea of TMM is to give a unit a defensive value. Any system that negates this breaks the value of having that high TMM.

Rather than having separate rules for artillery, they should be brought into alignment with standard attack rules and adjust the PV of fast units appropriately (already being discussed elsewhere). Fast units are annoying, but they often cannot survive a single hit. The only reason why glass cannons are in use today is because they are not valued property in the current PV.

Personally, I think there needs to be a T# for the POI (immobile - though I think the modifier is too large). If you miss that T#, then the artillery scatters. Otherwise, you hit the POI, but may not have hit the units in the blast area due to the timing difference between the artillery and the unit's movement. Effectively, you would make your attack as normal.

Skill 4 + Med 2 + Immobile -4 + Indirect Fire 1 + Spotter Attacked 1 = T# 4 to hit the POI.
T# 9 to hit a unit with TMM 1
T# 12 to hit a unit with TMM 4

I'm sure this would be an unpopular view. I do think that there should be bonuses given for spotters.
Like:
Spotter did not move -1
Spotter did not attack -1 (as compared to the increase above)
Spotter has RCN -1
Spotter has PRB -1 (target POI must be within 24 inches of spotter)

[Weirdo]

Fan rules belong in Fan Rules, please. C:-)

[sadlerbw]

The artillery rules don’t make logical sense in terms of matching something in reality or regular BattleTech, but they do serve a purpose. Alpha Strike lost pulse lasers and targetting computers, which used to be the most popular counters to little speed demons. Since those all got rolled up into a damage number, the rules needed something the help offset TMM instead. Artillery (or Low-skill pilots) ended up filling that role.

Now, if your artillery is off the map, or otherwise far enough away that there is a flight time involved, it’s much less awesome at countering fast units. If you have to guess where they will be a turn or two ahead of time, it’s real hard to land a hit. When you have artillery on the map and close enough that the rounds land instantly, that is when they become deadly to fast units. Then, thanks to being able to shoot after everyone has moved, you can do the ‘shoot at the ground near their feet’ thing. It’s still not a lay-down, as my artillery proved by tossing most of its shells off the board, but easier than hitting a TMM 4 unit at long range. Still, this trick only works if your artillery is on the board where the enemy has a chance to blast it into tiny bits before it does too much damage...which, if I recall, you did precisely one turn after I pulled that stunt on your Gunsmith!

I admit it isn’t perfect, but there isn’t much in the base game that can help tone down the power of a +4 on every to-hit role. C3 can kinda help, and skill 1 or 2 pilots also work, but that is about it. I’d be open to seeing artillery be a bit less precise on moving targets, but there has to be something speed demons are afraid of.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Well artillery has been nerfed to make it less accurate.  It's no longer possible to drive the TN down to 2 (or under!) and get automatically successful placement.

[Scotty]

Well artillery has been nerfed to make it less accurate.  It's no longer possible to drive the TN down to 2 (or under!) and get automatically successful placement.

Not nerfed enough (or more accurately, not in the right way).  My ideal artillery would be public declaration, secret POI (write it down with terrain feature relative distance; or just nominate a hex if you're not using terrain) immediately before the movement phase.

[sadlerbw]

Yeah, declaration before move with secrect POI is a great idea for balance. However, without hexes I can see folks on one side or the other getting grumpy about interpretation of where exactly the secret POI is. Since very small physical distances can actually matter in AS, and there isn’t a precise coordinate system, I can see hits that are close making some people feel like they got cheated a little by a not-super-accurate POI declaration. Also, it’s tough to do without having one team or the other cover their eyes while you measure out where the POI is. Of course, this problem already exists with time-of-flight shots, but I hate dealing with those so I tend to play artillery on-board.

My suggestion, in keeping with AS being simplified, is this: just give direct fire artillery a -2 to-hit mod. TMM 4 units are still hard to hit, but they have to bite their nails a bit more. Slower units will be easy to hit, but most artillery is doing 3 points of damage or less. That isn’t super-scary to most mediums or above. Heck, some units might opt to use their regular weapons for a chance at more damage.