Rockets - Are they REALLY all that?

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Once again showing my ignorance of rule changes since 2005 or so, but can  aerodyne dropships now make strafing attacks? (I know it's described in Wolves on the Border but I always thought it was not allowed in the rules.)

You can.

Imagine the hilarity from a Taihou striking with its capital-scale autocannons.

And the failed lawn dart check that inevitably follows after getting plinked for a couple points of damage from ground-to-air fire.

[Azakael]

Me, I'd support an addition to the Forced Withdrawal rules saying that a unit forced to withdraw because Rocket expenditure has left it essentially unarmed should not count against that player's final victory conditions. Things like that Karnov are supposed to bug out after emptying their tubes. :)

The FW rules actually worked in my favor with that situation once. OpFor had the Lightning (RL) variant - (The one with *only* RL-15's as it's armaments.) After it was emptied, it was one extra OpFor unit considered crippled/ destroyed for my victory purposes.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

You can only make strafing attacks with energy weapons, so it doesn't matter when you're packing rockets.

[StoneRhino]

The rocket Commando has been used against me a few times. The first time I think it with with a decent amount of the rockets and launchers. The second time, not to many landed, both launchers and rockets per launcher. I believe that there was even a rocket Cyclops that was thrown at me before. I don't recall how much damage the Cyclops did, but from that point on it wasn't perceived as much of a threat.

I have never used a rocket launcher as far as I can remember, so the BV put into them doesn't really come to mind as far as their cost and perceived value. Being hit by them, if the player isn't going for a low TN# and popping them all off then it seems like a waste to me. As the defender, I like that they just burned some BV by either burning those BV points for the launchers, or neutering their unit that is based upon rockets as they seem to have little to use afterwards. Perhaps its perception, but I like the idea of those rockets missing hard.

In a one off game regulated by BV, I would say their value is rather limited. If you are playing a campaign and don't mind pulling units off of the field before they have taken significant damage then using lots of RLs and fleeing isn't a bad idea. One hits you with a penalty for having a unit that is now unarmed, while the other mode might not hurt you for such a unit walking off of the map. Personally, I'd rather have the unit using LRMs providing indirect fire instead of playing a kamikaze role.

[The_Caveman]

You can only make strafing attacks with energy weapons, so it doesn't matter when you're packing rockets.

Right, it's technically a Striking attack, which are also permitted to DropShips.

[Weirdo]

It's technically a strike in the same way that an Atlas is technically a BattleMech.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

It's less a Strike and more a bombardment.

[garhkal]

I see RLs as the throw away weapons they are..  Shoot, move and stay hidden.  So are good for lights and harasser mediums, or on vehicles.  But not really for heavy or assault mechs.

[Colt Ward]

Oh yeah . . . one thing that is not getting mentioned I think is their ability to crit sink.  Putting a RL15 on the legs is a good way to protect the hips, etc while still getting a shot off if needed.

[Elmoth]

I see RLs as the throw away weapons they are..  Shoot, move and stay hidden.  So are good for lights and harasser mediums, or on vehicles.  But not really for heavy or assault mechs.

They can also be good for primitive mechs, like the Arbiter ARB-001.

[Siegfried Marcus]

The primitive version is almost as good as the modern ones, and RL 10s are one of the best weapons of asymmetric warfare.  As mentioned, they are pretty much the ideal weapon for a throw-away ambusher or a massed suicide charge.  The challenge would be getting the crews to close into short range rather than popping off all their rockets at the first chance as an excuse to get off the battlefield.

[JadeHellbringer]

Reading this thread, I realized how much I want a rocket-equipped Scarabus... keep the mediums and hatchet, get rid of the small lasers, TAG, and ECM in favor of rocket packs, and you have a machine that can contribute a modest couple of hits per turn, deliver a massive wallop at some point where needed, and is always encouraged to dash up in people's faces to do so because AXE...

It's kind of stupid, I know, but it'd be fun too.

[Weirdo]

I never knew how much I needed that in my life until now...

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Reading this thread, I realized how much I want a rocket-equipped Scarabus... keep the mediums and hatchet, get rid of the small lasers, TAG, and ECM in favor of rocket packs, and you have a machine that can contribute a modest couple of hits per turn, deliver a massive wallop at some point where needed, and is always encouraged to dash up in people's faces to do so because AXE...

It's kind of stupid, I know, but it'd be fun too.

It's the perfect mech for when you dare to be stupid!

[Colt Ward]

Can a melee equipped mech carry a handheld weapon?  cause a fist full of rockets . . .

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I haven't seen any rules stating that Melee weapons interfere with the usage of the hands for other tasks, like carrying hand-held weapons.

[garhkal]

Reading this thread, I realized how much I want a rocket-equipped Scarabus... keep the mediums and hatchet, get rid of the small lasers, TAG, and ECM in favor of rocket packs, and you have a machine that can contribute a modest couple of hits per turn, deliver a massive wallop at some point where needed, and is always encouraged to dash up in people's faces to do so because AXE...

It's kind of stupid, I know, but it'd be fun too.

Check out the new mechs section...

[Tai Dai Cultist]

I've played around with refitting all the 3025 bug mechs with Rocket Launchers in Megamek.  Some very credible recon scouts are plausible.

[TigerShark]

Rocket launchers are pretty over-valued, BV-wise. If I took an SRM-6 and replaced it with six RL/10s, you'd have 89 for the SRM-6 and (18 x 6) 108 for the RL/10s. But that's 6 shots vs 15, and a dramatically-reduced average damage (6 for the RL/10, 8 for the SRM-6, or a 25% drop).
These really need to be re-figured, IMO, for them to be 'useful' and not a niche weapon. (BTW - I realize that didn't factor in ammunition. But with the explosive ammo BV reduction, it's something of a wash).

[RoundTop]

Rocket launchers are pretty over-valued, BV-wise. If I took an SRM-6 and replaced it with six RL/10s, you'd have 89 for the SRM-6 and (18 x 6) 108 for the RL/10s. But that's 6 shots vs 15, and a dramatically-reduced average damage (6 for the RL/10, 8 for the SRM-6, or a 25% drop).
These really need to be re-figured, IMO, for them to be 'useful' and not a niche weapon. (BTW - I realize that didn't factor in ammunition. But with the explosive ammo BV reduction, it's something of a wash).

But, you need to look at burst vs sustained damage.

Max srm6 damage is 12, to up to 6 locations.
Max rl damage is 60, to up to 12 locations (groups of 5 max).  This is why the bv spikes.

So a medium mech could tank 12 damage to the rear in 2 pt groups. But 60 in 5 point groups? Nope. 2 hit a rear torso and on most designs you are internal.

That said, it is a one trick pony. That trick is pretty spectacular though. If you can tank the damage, the firing platform is in a bad way.

[TigerShark]

That said, it is a one trick pony. That trick is pretty spectacular though. If you can tank the damage, the firing platform is in a bad way.

And if you miss, you've done nothing but expend tonnage to become a useless shell. I definitely agree that it's got a huge upside. But that upside is highly dependent on you having a better gunner than Regular to offset the +1. Or be firing at a prone target which is probably already beaten up.
This BV problem (and I'm not going to make the thread about BV -- Just a one-off statement as to WHY they're 'that bad') is evident in 'Mechs like the BNC-5S and HBK-5M. While their main gun packs a huge punch, its ammo supply makes it overvalued in BV. A gun with no ammo is useless, but the sheer BV of the main gun (320 in the case of the Gauss) exacerbates the problem.

So are RLs "that bad?" Yes, but not for the reasons discussed, IMO. If the RL/10 was 8 BV instead of 18, for example, that same "SRM-6 v. RL/10" scenario would be 51 BV vs. 48, making it fairly even (this also takes ammo and explosive ammo into account). This isn't a suggestion, but a good illustration of why a Rocket Launcher unit won't stand up to an SRM-equipped unit in an even fight.

[The_Caveman]

BV sucks. It just so happens all the other systems that were tried suck more.

Also the comparison BV-wise between an RL10 and an SRM-6 should use the OS SRM-6, which has a BV of 12. 10 of those weigh a crapton more than 6 RL-10s, but they'd have 120 BV.

[Daryk]

The only balancing system that really works is a sane GM using their judgement.

[Sartris]

Bv is fine and rockets are only overcosted if you don’t miss. Get better TNs

[ThePW]

I haven't seen any rules stating that Melee weapons interfere with the usage of the hands for other tasks, like carrying hand-held weapons.

You can't do a hands-melee attack if you make a weapons attack with your arms, which includes holding a disposable weapon, when you think about it. and because melee weapons are installed into the hand actuator, you can't hold a Disposable weapon either (one or the other).


I personally have no experience with Rocket Launchers but I wish they were more common back in the day. One time, long ago, I remember spamming a mech fight with about 25 Jump Bombers, loaded with bombs. I think Rocket Launchers would have been more fun, when I think about it...

[ANS Kamas P81]

Think of rockets on fast mechs less as backstab weapons and more like 'oh hey i found an immobile command center over there' target of opportunity.  Also great for breaching through fortifications and whatnot, basically an immobile target.  That'll dramatically improve the TNs.

Or shooting at dropships I suppose.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

You can't do a hands-melee attack if you make a weapons attack with your arms, which includes holding a disposable weapon, when you think about it. and because melee weapons are installed into the hand actuator, you can't hold a Disposable weapon either (one or the other).

Just carrying something in your hands prevents you from using any arm or torso-mounted weapons.  But having a melee weapon like a hatchet or sword on a mech doesn't interfere with being able to carry or use hand-held weapons.

[garhkal]

Rocket launchers are pretty over-valued, BV-wise. If I took an SRM-6 and replaced it with six RL/10s, you'd have 89 for the SRM-6 and (18 x 6) 108 for the RL/10s. But that's 6 shots vs 15, and a dramatically-reduced average damage (6 for the RL/10, 8 for the SRM-6, or a 25% drop).
These really need to be re-figured, IMO, for them to be 'useful' and not a niche weapon. (BTW - I realize that didn't factor in ammunition. But with the explosive ammo BV reduction, it's something of a wash).

However those RL-10s have double the range the SRM6 has..

[Elmoth]

Didn't knew those existed. They look cool! Now I need a bunch of 3030 hovers and VTOLS with those. For mechs,... meh, not so much since it hurts their aesthetics.

[The_Livewire]

Think of rockets on fast mechs less as backstab weapons and more like 'oh hey i found an immobile command center over there' target of opportunity.  Also great for breaching through fortifications and whatnot, basically an immobile target.  That'll dramatically improve the TNs.

Or shooting at dropships I suppose.

Found them useful on VTOLs mixed with plasma weapons.  If you hit a vehicle with a plasma rifle, that's 3-7 locations rolls, IIRC ((10+2d6 damage)/5 point clusters).  Lots of chances for mobility hits.  Then you follow up with rocket launchers to ensure it stays dead.